The marriage counsellor seems to be picking sides?

[Sheba]

Me:

 

The counsellor seems to think that once my husband realizes/admits what happened to him as a child, he will have insight. She is quite certain that whatever it was, it was very bad. I have told her that during times of stress my husband gets so angry/upset that he is not even really responsive to me - he says things that are out of place, like "you are not the boss". I know that she believes that she can teach him to understand that his reactions to me are not really reactions to me but to something that happened years ago. And then, the theory goes, he will be able to stop himself.

 

She may very well be imagining herself capable of getting him to some pinnacle of insight and then curing him.

 

In the mean time, he is always on edge lately, worse than he has been. He has been hurt by his youngest son, who has recently said he prefers to live full time with his mother. So, that is a sad thing that leaves my husband on the edge of anger. And, his anti-depressants are being adjusted, so his brain chemistry is disrupted. I should be walking on eggshells, I suppose, but I just can't.

 

YOU

 

You have withstood more than I have.

 

That MIL would have had me at my wit's end long ago. She should SUPPORT your marriage, but it sounds to me as if she would happily undermine the whole relationship if that is what is going to make sonny-boy feel good. Mind you, she obviously does not realize that would make him feel bad - because he seems to want the marriage to work in his own twisted way.

 

I could easily have a host of smart people "on my side" (my family and HIS) if I were to open my mouth about what goes on around here, but I don't. It would breach the boundaries of privacy in the relationship. Your husband should keep his mouth shut around his mother and save his remarks for the counsellor - the disinterested 3rd party who is supposed to be supporting the marriage.

 

The take-over of your events would make me upset too. My family is a little like that - aggressive and wanting to "help" - but we have all learned over time to back down and defer to the hostess. Today, for example, I am doing just as I was asked for the Father's Day dinner at my sister's- not what I feel like doing but what she wants me to do. We take turns, so everyone gets a chance to "run the show". I wonder why you didn't tell your MIL that you would just go to her house? It is her party anyway, apparently.

 

Have you heard of the concept of emotional inscest? It is one that I have read up on because it seems to have some bearing on the relationship between my husband's ex and their youngest. She has no man right now and it seems as if she uses her son/s for emotional replacements for a partner. It is stomach churning. It reminds me of your MIL. What is your FIL like? Is he a ghost of a person? Is the real partnership between MIL and her son? Is the son's love and friendship taking the place which her husband's love and friendship ought to take? Is there an element of "I need you" from mother to son?

 

I could see how an emotionally incestuous relationship between mother and son would result in a personality like your husband's - a sense of entitlement and shock that he is not deferred to. His role as the child could have been subverted into a weird adult-like partnership with his mother that would give him the sense that his needs are more important than anyone else's.

 

The sex thing would also put me over the edge. We do not have sex as often as I would like and it is SUCH a touchy subject that I just have to keep my mouth shut and not suggest but just hope. Or, perhaps hint around a little at the grocery store or some other non-threatening place so that he does not feel I am pressuring him which inevitably backfires and results in no sex. This is very frustrating! I feel like I have no input, never mind control, over when I might have sex. I just have to wait and hope.

 

If my husband was jerking off instead of saving whatever sexual energy he has for me I think that would be the end. I might become the raving lunatic at that moment. It would be like he was cheating with himself - I would really feel as if something was being taken away from me. Worse, of course, would be the feeling that I am so unappealing that jerking off is better than a blow job - how could it be?

 

See, now I am very angry on your behalf. I would like to kick your husband in the a** for jerking off, and your MIL in hers for the way she has twisted her son. I don't blame you for taking off, though of course that won't help and they will all just sit around and discuss "your" problems and shake their heads over how troubled you are.

 

%$*#@!

[luvstarved]

Sheba,

 

I am sure that the situation with his son is adding to your H's edginess but also probably the emotional work of being in counseling - if you feel that he is doing any of it at all!!

 

I am curious about your remark that you should be walking on eggshells but just can't. How are things? Are you just feeling emotionally spent and sort of withdrawing - how are you two interacting? Sounds like no shouting matches but him on a constant simmer...?

 

Listen, THANK YOU for bringing up the term "emotional incest". It sounds absolutely spot on and I have requested a library book on that very topic. Can't wait to see the look on H's face when he sees it on my nightstand. Will be even more fun imagining his snoopy mother seeing it when she house sits while we are on vacation. Because she does, OF COURSE, sleep in OUR BED in that situation. Anyway, I have tried to embrace this situation and be a part of the family, etc but I've basically run out of resources to tolerate all this relentless crap that is thrown at me (the PA behavior from both of them is pretty much daily).

 

Funny my H claims that his "parents" have nothing to do with our relationship. D-oy. TO answer your Q about his Dad, now he is a tired old man waiting to die but what I saw when we met was his Dad following orders and being berated by my H for not doing it "right", etc. I called him on it a few times ("Christ, your Dad is trying to help you, show a little respect or do it yourself" and his Mom would laugh and say "oh that is how they have always interacted, it's fine") to no avail. His Dad went through a phase of losing a lot of jobs and suffering from depression and I would not be surprised to hear it is part of this mix. To answer the "element of 'I need you'" Q, it is more of an "I live to serve you" element...and it isn't so much an element as a complex compound...

 

Well I could go on and on about my crap and I certainly did not intend to hijack your thread,, it just kind of came spilling out when I started to write.

It is a funny time for me because I have been living with all of this for 10 years and I finally feel like I am starting to get some real answers...it's a mixed blessing...

 

I assume you have another appointment on Wed, mine are on Tues...we'll have to catch up and trade war stories again...

 

THANKS AGAIN for the tip on EI...that's very helpful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sheba]

In fact, not a counselling session at all, really. We just bitched back and forth at each other. Imagine! We paid someone to sit and listen to us snipe at each other.

 

I feel like we are almost back where we started, except that there were no children around who might overhear.

 

My husband is determined to hang onto the position that he has no problems except that I make him mad, and that I make him mad because I have problems. I am still saying that my biggest problem is insecurity born of all of his cruelty. We are at an impasse. I won't feel secure in this relationship until I know all of that is over. All of that won't be over until I feel secure.

 

How can I possibly sort this out? How can anyone?

 

The only change in our relationship since we started counselling is that our fights are shorter. So, we seem to have gained a bit in the way of self control. That is a good thing, of course. But it is not enough. I feel we must put the ugly times behind us completely. I don't know how to do that.

 

I am feeling a little too bummed out to analyze the whole thing tonight. Cleaning the kitchen seems like a more useful way to work on improving my marriage.

[luvstarved]

Cripes, Sheba, didn't the counselor make any attempt to mediate at all? That is just ridiculous. What was she doing while all of this was going on?

 

Has the counselor ever spoken of the concept of ownership of feelings? Or the pointlessness of blaming others? Listen, your H needs to have it drummed into his head that his anger belongs to HIM! Anger can be legitimate and expressed appropriately but somehow he needs to see that his is neither. My H has been like this too and it has only been recently that he has even acknowledged, even weeks later that his anger has been inappropriate. Yours needs to hear the words "emotional abuse", and not from you. Has the counselor let him in on this blaringly obvious fact, or is she still in the fear-of-losing-his-participation phase? I really do think that having a counselor tell my H multiple times that his behavior is ABUSIVE has started to sink in...perhaps nothing less will in your case. I hope he doesn't have her walking on eggshells too!

 

Having said that, and I know this is unfair even as I type it, you probably also need to step back from blaming him for your insecurity. Although I do believe in the ownership of feelings idea, in the case of abuse it is a different situation and anyway insecurity is less of an emotion and more of a viewpoint, really. So it isn't that I don't agree that his behavior has caused you to feel insecure, of course it has. However, I do not think that trying to wrassle contrition from him is going to work. You are justified in thinking you deserve it...but what good does that do if your attempts to get it are met with defenses and counterattacks?

 

I am curious as to how your insecurity expresses itself. I know that you have a "woman at work" issue. Are there other things? Do you check up on him, get jealous in general, endlessly solicit attention or any of that? If this is the thing that is supposedly pissing him off, why not try to remove it, whether you OUGHT to have to or not? Take away his ammo, as it were.

 

Right or wrong, you can't let all of YOUR actions be contingent upon him changing. Right or wrong, you have to work on yourself, FOR yourself. Yes, of course, the success of the marriage may depend on him changing, and that is as it should be...but you cannot MAKE him change. You can only decide to live with it or not. You can only express your side of it and inform him of what you need in order to continue in the relationship. And he can only decide if your marriage is important enough for him to make the changes required to keep it.

 

I hope I don't sound like an a**hole because I am going through many of the same things and doing many of the same things. But I do know that the blame and self-righteous position does not work, as often as I do still fall into that trap...I'm trying not to.

 

It finally dawned on me with my H that although his anger is wrong, the underlying feelings are not non-existant, not just "made up" to be evil. They are absurd sometimes - such as him getting offended by innocuous remarks. But - his perception of being offended is real. Your H's anger is real. It is a GENUINE emotion that is coming from vaporous places. It is a lot to expect that someone is not going to defend their actual emotions...and even less likely that they are indeed going to apologize for them. Blaming someone else is immature and convenient when you're wrong, but it is no more effective when you are right.

 

Have you tried the approach with the counselor of asking what she suggests you can do to work on your insecurity in this environment? How you should handle it when he gets angry? Probably the response would be something along the lines of "keeping it real" - reminding yourself that there is no basis of truth in the things he says about you (other than possibly the insecurity itself) and removing yourself from his presence when his "functional adult" self can't be in the room. "I'll talk to you when you are rational" sort of thing. But then, when later comes, trying to get some understanding of his anger...maybe probing about it until either you can almost see his point or he can almost realize that he didn't actually have one.

 

"Why did you get so upset about my shoes?"

"Well they were just inappropriate"

"And this is worth screaming about because...?"

"I don't know. You just always do stuff like that and it's embarrassing"

"And so you want to be married to me because...?" OR

"And the scary consequence of my wearing those shoes would be...?"

Who knows? Maybe you'd find out that his mother dressed him in a way that he got teased about and in the end he was actually trying to protect you from the same sort of thing. Ta-wisted, to be sure, but I've heard stranger things...of course, it might just send him back into anger and end up with him cursing at you again...but at that point you're back to "yeah well I'll get back to you when you're Dr Jekyll again, ok?"

 

This is sort of the way my counselor has advised us. If you VALIDATE the feeling, which you have to do because the FEELING of anger is real, express YOUR "truth" about it (without blame) "my interpretation of your behavior is that you do not really love me or that you see me as an embarrassment" and LISTEN to the OTHER person's truth...whatever the ef reason he might have actually been upset about the dang shoes...etc...then you get much closer to understanding and respecting where the other person is coming from...which goes a long way to diffusing emotional overreactions in future. "oh well if I knew that a deranged clown once beat you senseless with a pair of shoes just like these and caused you permanent trauma, then I can SEE why that would make you angry" or even better "If I realized that you thought I wore the shoes intentionally to piss you off, I could see why that would make you angry. BUT I did not wear them to piss you off" "oh?" "oh" "OH!" Maybe...just maybe... someday...

 

I KNOW this is easier said than done. Sometimes my H pisses me off so bad sometimes with his crap that I jump in too. BUT IT NEVER HELPS AND THE OTHER STUFF DOES!!!

 

I don't know. We actually do seem to be making SOME progress trying to do things as described above where before we weren't at all with the blowups and whiteknuckled civility between blowups. I do not think we have had our last blowup...oh nooooooo. We are still deep in the woods and there is much kneejerkiness and resentment and several big festering issues to resolve. And I still am not that optimistic that we can do it...but I do think that this is the right approach to FIND OUT if we can do it...

 

And I hope it is at least partly useful food for thought for you. I do know how agonizing and frustrating it is to try to get through and the fact that you are trying at all after all the crap he has dished out is beyond "commendable". So you should take at least some of that insecurity and replace it with self-kudos for all the effort you are putting in to save your marriage. You are being strong and brave and caring through all of this. Your H knows it, too, but it might not be a bad idea to remind him.

[luvstarved]

Again with the afterthoughts! Another useful tidbit for us from our counselor is "remember who you are talking to. This is not Joe Schmo at the body shop but the person you promised to love and hold dear above all others"...

[Sheba]

Your words are not wasted on me, luvstarved.

 

I gave some serious thought to your gentle accusation that I was invalidating my husband's feelings and recognized that it was the truth. I am as guilty as he is of that sin.

 

I also gave some thought to what I could offer to arriving at a solution, again with your words in mind. I had to be realistic: neither one of us will easily get over our own hurt and anger which we have fed and fueled and fostered in ourselves.

 

I came up with a proposal to try to break out of the endless battle. And then, taking yet another page from your book, I wrote him a very careful email.

 

I admitted to my failure to validate his feelings. I acknowledged my inability to get past my feelings about the past. And, I suggested terms of detente and invited him to brainstorm with me about amendments to those terms so that his needs were addressed.

 

I told him that I felt that we each needed something specific. I need his commitment to curtailing his anger and to avoiding interactions with others which he knew troubled me. And he needs me to stop hounding him for admissions and apologies. We both need to have the other stop throwing the past in our faces.

 

I told him that I did not think our feelings about the past would go away quickly, but that we might make some headway on getting out of this ugly cycle if we stopped talking about history - declared a moratorium on the subject.

 

My email was received with relief, I think. He did not respond by email (he is a bit of a luddite) but he told me that he agreed with everything I wrote. I believe that he is in fact feeling guilty about his extremely bad conduct. By offering to shut up about it, I know that I am giving him a gift that he will appreciate.

 

I hope that he will tell me if he disagrees and will negotiate a different detente, if that is what he needs.

 

I hope that I am able to keep the commitment I made to him.

 

I hope that you and your husband are able to maintain the positive exchange set out in your emails.

 

Only time will tell. All appendages are crossed.

[dropdeadlegs]

Wow. I am not in marriage counseling. I'm not even married at his point, but I am reading every week with awe at how you two ladies, Sheba and luvstarved, are working so very hard on marital problems. I'm not sure all this knowledge would have salvaged either of my marriages, but it is certainly fodder for the future of my relationships. I am learning quite a bit about interpersonal relationships, whether they be marital or not. Thank you both for the honest posts. I cannot be the only person following weekly.

[luvstarved]

Wow. I am not in marriage counseling. I'm not even married at his point, but I am reading every week with awe at how you two ladies, Sheba and luvstarved, are working so very hard on marital problems. I'm not sure all this knowledge would have salvaged either of my marriages, but it is certainly fodder for the future of my relationships. I am learning quite a bit about interpersonal relationships, whether they be marital or not. Thank you both for the honest posts. I cannot be the only person following weekly.

 

DDL, thank you for your post. Not wanting to "horn in" (I am about to post my latest counseling stuff on my own thread) but I did want to acknowledge what you said. Yes, I think Sheba and I are nothing if not tenacious!

What can I say? My H has been driving me crazy for a long time but something keeps telling me that - anyone can drive you crazy, everyone has their faults, very few are truly evil and nobody but nobody can substitute for the one you love. I keep working on the theory/hope/delusion that most of the BS is just defense and misunderstanding and that if you can break through those, and have love behind the walls, then ...happiness is possible.

 

Am I there yet? Far from...but still...holding onto "it's possible"...

 

Thx again...

[luvstarved]

Ah, also, didn't even realize I did not respond to Sheba's previous post, but as you know I'd been going through my own crap earlier...

 

I am really glad to hear that your H agreed with you and that you have a plan for improving things. I hope that it works!!!

 

These are the moments that keep us going, aren't they? When you dare to strike out and make a suggestion, a concession, a request, and have it be well received...

 

There are times when I feel too frozen with fear of finding out that things will never work to make any kind of move, but in these situations, it is the only way to progress.

 

My H knows that I go on these boards and he is not too wild about the idea because he is afraid I will get some really bum input and run with it. I do not think he would object if he realized that here we ladies are supporting each other and though miles apart and strangers, making positive contributions to each other's marriages! Ain't technology grand?

 

Looking forward to a post-counseling update...you might just make the counselor's day...at least I hope things are still on a high!!!

[dropdeadlegs]

Ah, also, didn't even realize I did not respond to Sheba's previous post, but as you know I'd been going through my own crap earlier...

 

I am really glad to hear that your H agreed with you and that you have a plan for improving things. I hope that it works!!!

 

These are the moments that keep us going, aren't they? When you dare to strike out and make a suggestion, a concession, a request, and have it be well received...

 

There are times when I feel too frozen with fear of finding out that things will never work to make any kind of move, but in these situations, it is the only way to progress.

 

My H knows that I go on these boards and he is not too wild about the idea because he is afraid I will get some really bum input and run with it. I do not think he would object if he realized that here we ladies are supporting each other and though miles apart and strangers, making positive contributions to each other's marriages! Ain't technology grand?

 

Looking forward to a post-counseling update...you might just make the counselor's day...at least I hope things are still on a high!!!

My boyfriend was initially very concerned that I would find another BF but he is okay with LS now. I have told him that I have learned a lot about how I should interact with him, much less others.

 

Sheba, I am sorry to have had a threadjack moment. This thread is of so much importance to many. I know I am learning a lot.

[Sheba]

DDL

 

Your continued interest surprises me, but I appreciate it. Luvstarved and I are indeed determined, aren't we? I think that we both want better marriages but are not prepared (at this point) to find new husbands to have those marriages with: so we are working on improving what we have, including ourselves.

 

I had a bad moment this past week. I flew off the handle because my husband and I were discussing a difficult situation involving my son and he started with the namecalling. Except now his namecalling is a little less crude. He called me "obsessive-compulsive", a "control freak" and a "hot head". These names were his entire response to my attempt to discuss the issue.

 

There is a bit of truth to each of those terms when applied to me, but there is more truth when they are applied to him. There is some huge irony in this name-calling. However, irony is not what made me fly off the handle. What upset me was that he reduces every discussion to a list of insults. I want to discuss the specific troubling events or comments, how it made us feel, how we think things should be handled. He wants to put me down by applying a list of pop psychology terms.

 

For my part, I am short on tolerance. I have had it with all of the putdowns. I had approached him in a civil manner and I am absolutely fed up with having my character trashed every time we disagree about any thing big or small.

 

As a perfect illustration of the irony, last night we were out with others and he made a little "put down joke" about my time spent on "computer chats". As soon as we had a private minute, I asked him to not do that. He was LIVID that I asked him not to do that - face red, swearing, etc... Things were very awkward, as I had then to deal with his obvious anger in a way that was not too obvious to the people we were with. How many times have I been in that situation.

 

His profound lack of insight is a continuing obstacle. I suppose this brings me back to where the counsellor wants to go: she wants him to confront the childhood incidents that have lead him to be such an angry and anxious person.

 

Off we go to the counsellor this morning (or "torture" as he calls it) with an hour and a long list:

 

- the jargon namecalling

- the flying off the handle (mine and his)

- my proposal of last week (which, by the way, he seems to have interpreted a differently than it was intended so that needs to be discussed)

- whatever the heck his mother did to him

 

Sigh

[luvstarved]

Sheba,

 

I know that it must make you crazy, as it does me, to feel one day that you have had a breakthrough and the next find yourself in the "same ol' s**t" situations. You are right that we both are determined to do everything within our power to make our marriages work. Who wants to start over, for one thing, but anyway, we actually love these mercurial creatures!! It is very discouraging sometimes, though. Even when there is some sense of progress, you have to wonder, how good is the best here?

 

When I first joined the board, I had it in my head that I would give my H 6 months to a year to "straighten out" or I would be outta here. I am in the 10th month and I don't see myself holding to that. Of course, there has been progress and some important self-awareness, etc but some days I just want to set a new deadline, because part of me thinks that if I don't then I might just prove myself to be a fool in the end...like, there ought to be some defineable point at which you say, it isn't going to get any better than it is, so maybe I need some external criterion to use as an "alarm" to indicate it is time to get the hell out!!!

 

But I don't know!!! You sounded very positive about the response you got to your e-mail. Now you see he "interprets it differently". Can you elaborate on that? I would guess that he interpreted it more as an admission or confession on your part than as a thoughtful attempt to reach out with respect...

 

It does sound like his anger is THE pivotal issue here. I don't remember the name of the book the counselor gave him to read and am too lazy to look, but DID he read it? DID he acknowledge anything? It sounded like he did at one time but...now it has just gone "in disguise" with mere variations on the same old insults?

 

I still say that someone needs to make it LOUD and CLEAR to him that it is abuse. Maybe he doesn't think so. My H still doesn't, even though I must say he has actually improved a lot on the day to day stuff that used to send him into a tizzy. Your H might get defensive and deny the truth of it, but maybe it would have an effect on his behavior, if for no other reason than to avoid being accused of abuse again!!! I think that might have played a part with my H. And let's face it, the behavior is the bottom line issue, isn't it?

 

Other than that, I think you should keep it up with refusing to engage in the anger. Could a time-out work? Also, I wonder whether when there is some practical issue to discuss, would it be helpful if you put your "side of the story" or opinion in writing first? Not necessarily that you would give it to him, although if you think it would help, then by all means!! But I have found in the past that it has helped me for a few reasons. One, it helps me to verify that my thinking on the subject is clear, objective, free of selfishness or hidden agendae, whatever. Two, it helps me to identify ways in which I might be saying things in a way that is not conducive to mutual respect and cooperation ("if you weren't such an a**hole, then..." OOOPS!!! Rewrite!!) Three, leaves you feeling better prepared when the conversation actually happens (you may even identify spots where you can expect the insult and try to think of a way to thwart it!) Four, in the case of actually delivering the writing, then there is the benefit of setting things up in a way that you get to be "heard" in entirety without being interrupted and sidetracked with their BS.

 

Some might say this is a lot of work, or a head game, or even manipulation or competition. Maybe it is. I don't know. All I know is that it helps me to clear my head and feel more confident that I am doing all that I can to be forthright and rational and respectful. Not that I always succeed despite all that!! By the way, to this point, I have not given my H any of these gems, so they have strictly stayed in the "for my own benefit" category.

 

Anyway, I won't go on and on (um, actually I guess I just did!). Just offering some stream-of-consciousness food for thought. I hope that the counselor gave you some good feedback and that you are feeling better about things...

your H does sound like he is trying and that he cares but I get the impression that he resents the WORK of it and isn't putting enough sincere effort of his own into it. Not sure if that fits but a thought...

 

I am a little worried now that since you have not yet reported that you are not feeling very good. I'd prefer to think that you're having a wild night of romance and can't be bothered with LS. Let us know either way!!

[Sheba]

I am rather wounded.

 

My husband was instantly combative in the counselling session. Angry, swearing (just a bit) and resolute in his position that he is treated poorly for nothing.

 

Interestingly - or perhaps I should say sadly -he admitted that he made the comment about "internet chats" to be mean. Admitted he was angry and saying it to humiliate me. Now, this type of conduct is really beyond me: the night before he was LIVID with me for telling him I would prefer he not make that sort of remark. Today he admits that mocking me was his aim?

 

This is too convoluted for me.

 

The counsellor was able to identify that there was backsliding. My husband seemed to blame that on our failure to have the "scheduled ISSUE talks" she recommends. This is also very ironic. We did schedule two "Issue talks". They were torture. I have not scheduled any since and he certainly will not. He HATES talking about issues, which is the whole reason she recommended this.

 

His anger is a huge problem, but he is NO where near admitting that. He keeps saying things like "you are the hothead". Truly, anyone who knows us would say otherwise. Not that I am a mouse, by any means, but I am always diplomatic at work and I am almost never actually angry at the children. On the other hand, I have seen the big eyes when he is in a mood at the office, and I know what the children say about him.

 

I do try to step away from his anger more often. This is partly due to being worn out by it. Once it starts I am almost instantly teary and depressed, whereas I used to be bewildered and stick around to say things like "why are you saying these things to me?" or "why are you treating me like this?". Now I am much more inclined to go lock myself away. Always listening, of course, to see if he starts bitching at the kids. Thankfullly that is rare these days. I am the sole enemy.

 

We were told today that we were THE ONLY couple she sees that hates coming to sessions. She said everyone else looks forward to them - we both admit we hate them. She attributed that to the fact we are both "extremely sensitive".

 

This news that we are so unique really threw my husband for a loop. He was beyond prickly afterwards - said he was "very very low". Took off on a jaunt instead of going to work. Came home angry and bitched at the kids. We had to go out tonight - and I felt compelled to press him for a commitment to be nice to me in public, which I finally got, after a bit more verbal abuse. The outing was fine, but as soon as it was over he returned to brooding.

 

Luvstarved - the difference between what I wrote in that apparently pointless email to my husband and his interpretation is monumental. I wrote that I felt neither of us was able to forgive and forget at this point - yet somehow he thinks I was suggesting we would start with a "clean slate". He also saw me as saying we would "agree to disagree", when that is not the case. I simply proposed that we act with the past in mind but stop discussing it. In reality, I am saying we act as if we agree with each other, but without the constant harping about why.

 

I am a tough person, but this may get the better of me yet. Right now, I know he is brooding - about, presumably, the ****ty lot he has in life and how all "my problems" cause all our problems and that it is hopeless because everyone else LOVES to go to counselling. And I am thinking - well, if he finally leaves, is that a bad thing?

 

Still sighing.

[luvstarved]

Hi Sheba

 

Sorry to hear that things are going downhill again. It seems that until your H is willing to own his anger and stop making it about you that you won't get anywhere.

 

One thing I am confused about is the intention vs the interpretation of your email. For some reason when I read your description of the discrepancy there I couldn't quite make sense of it. I guess I am saying that I could see why he would interpret it as he did and was not clear on the distinction. Would appreciate some elaboration on it...are you saying that he wanted to say that some conclusion had been arrived at, while you merely intended to declare a temporary moratorium in favor of focusing on daily interactions??? I don't know why I didn't quite "get it" but...there it is.

 

FWIW my H is looking into things online and found this article that seemed to really have an impact on him. Maybe you could forward the link to your H or otherwise find a way to relate this information to him...without blaming in the process?

 

http://www.apa.org/topics/controlanger.html

 

The only other comment I have right now is that I wonder if it would be worth investigating the possibility of a different counselor. For whatever reason this one does not seem to be effective for you and that happens a lot (my H and I went through 3 before hitting the one that seemed to get through to him). These are difficult interpersonal matters and it takes skill and rapport to work through them. Your counselor might be great for one type of couple but not another. Food for thought anyway.

 

Anyway I can't imagine what your week has been like but am hopeful that things have taken a positive turn. Please take care and please keep us posted.

[Sheba]

Thank you for your interest, luvstarved.

 

We have had an interesting week since our last counselling session. My husband was very low for a full day or more after the session. I think he was really struck by the remark that we were "the only ones" who hated going to sessions.

 

Then, he sort of perked up. He started speaking about how he and I are very sensitive and it seems that the characterization helps him understand himself and me. I know him so well now, that I know that part of the appeal of this characterization is that it was applied equally to both of us.

 

I am sure it is true of course. I have always known that he is very reactive to the tone of my voice or my facial expression - of course he does not always interpret the meaning of my tone or expression correctly, but he is atuned to subtle changes.

 

We had a weird session today spent discussing my body image. I am actually annoyed by the whole conversation. You see, I was very skinny and my husband used to say how much he liked me that way. He said so over and over. I have gained weight. Now, he never says he is unhappy about the gain, but I am and I know, of course, that it is not appealing to him. I know he finds skinny attractive.

 

So, there was some big pretext today about how I have this hourglass figure and really men like curves and he is totally happy with me as I am. This was simply a fraud lead by the well meaning counsellor . I am well aware that many men like curves, and as aware that my husband does not. It is also not something that needed discussing as I am very familiar with my husband's feelings on the topic and my own resentments which makes it hard for me to contemplate losing weight. I feel as if it is a possibly temporary issue that could be resolved by overcoming resentment generally, but the whole pretense about how it makes no difference felt phony and hypocritical.

 

My husband gets full points for good intentions during this ridiculous discussion, of course. However I won't waste more expensive counselling sessions on "oh, but really you are gorgeous".

 

After the conversation finally turned from how gorgeous I allegedly am, then we got to how gorgeous my soul and spirit are. Now, this is a concept I have trouble with. I really don't know what exactly is meant. My husband and the counsellor went on about the inner beauty of people and I was left wondering if they mean character? Personality? Morals and attitudes? WHAT?

 

All in all a rather useless but not harmful session.

 

Luvstarved, as far as the email goes, I did mean to put a ban on discussing certain topics, but to promote acting on them. I don't call this a fresh start. A fresh start, to me, would be to wipe the slate clean for both of us. I don't think we can do that, at least not now. Maybe bit by bit. It is abundantly clear that we both harbour a host of resentments agains each other and neither of us is able to give up those ghosts.

 

I would like to discuss the email with him, and invited him to discuss it with me again, but that did not happen. I am way past nagging and pressing for such discussions so have left that agenda for the moment, but with the intention to try to follow it myself.

 

My husband and I are on our third counsellor. He quit going to the first two. This one appeals to him and so I feel our best bet is to continue to go to her. Mainly because I feel he won't go to another! In a slow way, we are getting to the big issues. Today, when lecturing us on the characteristics of highly sensitive people, the counsellor looked pointedly at my husband when she spoke of excessive anger. In this somewhat indirect way, she makes her points. Which, being highly sensitive people, we get.

[luvstarved]

Hi Sheba,

 

Sorry for late response, I was on vacation last week and just now getting caught up with real life.

 

I am wondering how this whole topic of physical appearance and inner beauty and whatnot even came about? It sounds as though it was somewhere you had not interest in going, so who brought it up? I wonder if it might have been some sideways attempt by your H to compliment or validate you in some way. Do you have any history of projecting a negative self-image wrt your appearance (I do!!)?

 

It is good that he is sticking with this counselor and that he sort of "perked up" after a temporary funk. It sounds like he is trying to be thoughtful and IS fully invested. Yes indeed, if he feels good with this counselor then that is the one to stick with. Perhaps the third time is the charm! It seems to have been for my H and me, but the jury has not reached its final verdict just yet.

 

At our last session, I totally owned up to resentments and insecurity but said that I wanted to address those OUTSIDE of the context of our couples counseling. I guess it feels to me like I have covered that ground ad nauseum with my H and at this point it could only do more damage to try to go there with him right now. There are things that I want to let go of that I am unable to do on my own, and there are things that I would like to get my H to admit, but I can't get that somehow, and there are things that I feel that I need to express but I don't want to express them directly to my H. But the bottom line is that I need to resolve certain things in my mind and learn how to act when certain triggers appear in the future. So, next week I am going to go to the counselor alone. I don't know if this is something you might consider doing...but basically, I have things that are eating me alive about some past stuff and some fears. H persistently reassures me, but his words and behavior do not line up in a logical enough way for me to accept...

 

I did not mean to say that as a thread-hijacking thing...just sounds like you might have similar stuff going on and wondered whether it might also sound potentially applicable to your situation.

 

Cannot believe how the summer is flying by. Hopefully tonight you will have a chance to report on the latest counseling session. While "not harmful" is better than "disastrous", I certainly hope that something more relevant and helpful happened this week. Keep us posted...

[Sheba]

After a good week between my husband and I, we had a crisis started by my son. Or perhaps by my exhusband.

 

It is abundantly clear that my son is crushed by his father's behaviour and by that of my husband. He needs a father and needs to feel loved by these men. My husband is willing, but he has a hard row to hoe, since he has to get past my son's anger about the way I have been treated.

 

I feel extremely sad and angry at myself for thinking that I could be both parents to my son and not realizing how affected he has been by the two fathers he has had.

 

Our counselling session was really all about my son. On the negative side, I stated unequivocally and perhaps unnecessarily that my children came first and I would be with them even if it meant being without my husband. On the positive, my husband spoke of his love for my son and agreed to try to be transparent with him.

 

I have now spoken to my son about his bio father's limitations. I talked to him about how his father loves him but lacked a proper role model for loving as a result of his family of origin. I also told him that his stepfather loved him. His answer, as always, is that he doesn't care - but I realize now that he cares very, very much.

 

Luvstarved, I am sure that I need individual counselling to get over the insecurities I have about many things. Insecurities that cropped up again last night when MY father was here and he was telling my children that their report cards were "good but not good enough". Sigh. That was certainly the message I got from him constantly when I was a child and I regret that he was telling my kids the same thing. I know he means well (he means to inspire them) but I saw the looks on their faces.

 

We all need to feel like we are "good enough" to be loved even if we are not perfect.

 

How are things with your husband? It sounds as if they are much better. It is good that you are planning to work on yourself to bolster the work you and your husband are doing on your marriage.

[happyfish]

It seems like the real monster in this relationship is Anger.

 

Anger is a (in most people subconcious) defense mechanism, just like fear. When a threat approaches (think: big lion coming straight for you!) the fear sets in demanding a response from your body. Fight or Flight. The "Fight" part of that is Anger.

 

If your husband grew up learning when to set off his defenses wrong, then thats precisely what is happening when his anger set off on you now. His threats aren't real like a lion running straight for you with his teeth bared though. His threats are to his pride, his dignity, his self-esteem. He probably doesn't recognize this but when his mother failed to validate his feelings or make him feel loved and worthy of self-confidence he had to protect himself in those ways and if you think of it this way: His self esteem and pride were protected by him long before you ever came around.

 

I am sure he feels powerless and fears more then anything having that feeling out in the open to be picked apart and used against him. So he has learned valuable skills at manipulation of words, blameshifting and lying (yes, I am sure he remembers the words he said in anger, but if he denys it long enough sometimes you will question yourself on wether or not you heard right) to replace those defense mechanisms that should have been taught to him by a loving parent. The result? His *natural* defenses (anger and fear) are triggering at unreasonable and totally wrong times. The fun part? This happens without him having the foggiest idea as to why!

 

The cure? Cognative Behavioral Therapy & Anger Management. CBT teaches you to be completely aware of where your feelings are coming from, starting with logging every time you feel mad or sad and posting the event that happened, the thoughts you felt in your head at the time, and the feelings that you felt. When I started my therapy I was shocked to how many of my "anger" feelings were really sadness and fear in disguise.

 

The basic idea is that you never feel anything at all for no reason. There is always a reason behind it wether it be an event days ago or right at the moment. Finding the reason you got angry helps you look at how you could have solved it constructively.

 

For Example: (this would be my take on a situation you mentioned)

 

Situation: Husband turns an arguement into name calling. (From Husbands point of view, My interpretations if I were him)

 

My Thoughts were probably along the lines of "Why is it always my fault?", "I can't handle EVERYTHING", "I just want to stop arguing", "If she didn't do X, I wouldn't have to yell at her".

 

My feelings around it would be somewhere along the lines of: overwhelmed, anxious, trapped/backed into a corner, useless/unable to keep family happy, powerless, defeated, challenged, embaressed.

 

Now the first wrong in this thinking is here: "If she didn't do X, I wouldn't have to yell at her". This is blame shifting. He needs to OWN his ANGER before he can move forward. Wether he likes it or not, if you are around or anyone else, he is always angry so the common denominator is HIM. Its his anger, he needs to own it and take responsibility for it. No more blaming anyone else. Point final! "Its yours! Deal with it!"

 

The Constructive way to deal with this from his perspective: Acknowledge the *feelings* not the anger. Express the feelings bluntly(through clenched teeth if he has to!), for example: "When our arguements get heated, I feel embaressed. I feel small and powerless. I feel like I have to "set you in place" or "stand up for myself". I know this is wrong but thats how I am feeling. Maybe we need to find a better way of arguing, or maybe we can continue this after I've had time to think about it some more first."

 

Its actually quite surprising some of the feelings that can be associated with anger. Try writing yours down for a few days and you'll see what I mean. You have to write them AS SOON as you get angry (or sad) though, because otherwise you will potentially forget some of the feelings.

 

I have to admit I am a bit concerned that by taking the brunt of HIS anger that you are starting to change your defense mechanisms as well (to adjust to the situation you are in). Though it will be easier for you to revert back since its not a childhood issue, you should be careful that you do not become an angry person as well. Recognize what you are REALLY feeling when you get angry. Communicate these REAL feelings. Don't let anger fool you! Its there to protect you but it sometimes gets things completely wrong!

 

I hope I could help at least in the slightest bit!

[dropdeadlegs]

I'm not sure if I have said it in this thread, so I will agree with happyfish that anger (and I believe most feelings with a negative connotation) are directly linked to fear in some way. That's what I have discovered about myself, anyway.

 

I read quite a bit about CBT on this forum and it certainly has piqued my interest. Those who have been involved in this type of therapy cannot seem to say enough good things about it and appear to have learned much through the process. If I had the time and money (well, I do have the time...) I would give CBT a try even though I am not currently in a mental health/family health crisis. CBT seems like a wonderful process of self discovery and an opportunity to rewire ourselves and rid us of old bad habits. I assume it would be best practiced in an individual counseling scenario, at least at first.

[luvstarved]

Yes, anger is fear and insecurity and a lot of negative stuff but I think of it more directly in terms of being a defense. Of course, it is fear and all that that caused the feeling of needing to defend, but I can wrap my brain around it best when I think of it from the defense angle. It doesn't really have to be from a sense of being attacked per se, for some I think it can come from a fear of not having needs met. My H's anger has come about not only from feelings that I am attacking his character, but also from perceived failures on my part to comply with his wishes.

 

From what I have been told, people with huge anger issues generally have something rooted in their childhood that caused it. In the case of Sheba's H, it seems to have come from being abused by his mother and their counselor is trying to uncover the Big Kahuna of abuses that is theoretically going to yield an epiphany for him. Apparently his mother was very cold and unloving and I guess the extent of it all is somewhat unknown.

 

In my H's case, his mother was unintentionally abusive in the opposite direction. I think my H has great insecurity because she OVERDID it with affirmations and validations. She told him and everyone else that he was the best, the greatest, the handsomest, etc and gave him everything he wanted, without exception to my knowledge. She also agreed with him on everything and never demanded a respectful attitude.

 

So he got to be an adult, caretaken, validated, agreed with by mom and this left him poorly equipped to deal with the rest of the world. Now he expects too much fussing over, knee-jerk agreement and compliance, feels justified in anger and paranoid about other's intentions (because if someone made an innocuous remark and he got offended, mom was right there to tell him he was interpreting things correctly, even if he wasn't).

 

Ironically, my H is in the field of counseling and has conducted anger management workshops and uses CBT with his clients. Even his former boss said it was funny that HE should be doing anger management, and he never saw more than the tip of the iceberg.

 

My H is finally STARTING to own his anger and earlier in this thread I posted a link that for some reason really resonated with him. I think the angle that struck him was the idea of feeling self-righteous and justified in anger. He knew that he DID feel that way and reading that this is misguided at best seemed to have done something for him. Up to then, he denied that he had any anger issue, even though the whole world practically told him he did (except Mom, who told him the rest of the world had the problem)

 

So he is getting better, but still when he is tired he is very prone to taking offense, getting generally impatient and sometimes doing the "Captain Queeg" thing as I call it, going around the house seeming to actually LOOK FOR things to get pissed about and then going on and on about the littlest things.

 

So, I think that CBT and anger management can help but the prerequisite is to ACKNOWLEDGE and OWN the anger, as happyfish said. When someone is asserting that their anger is BEING CAUSED by someone else's actions, it is hard to make headway. It sounds like Sheba is still struggling with this reality to a large extent and I do not think I am out of the woods yet either, even though I do feel my H has taken important first steps. She and I have discussed how our own resentments can exacerbate that situation, but then again how long can you continue to take the high road when you're being emotionally pummeled? It is not USEFUL to join in, but it IS human and hard to avoid consistently.