close to God!?

[Storyrider]

I think that when we die we continue to be undetectably conscious and sensually feel our slow decay.

 

So we lie there and feel the worms munching on us--delightful. Leave it to you..

 

I have only skimmed through this, but I agree with much of what bluetuesday said about design.

 

And I don't know if anyone has said this, but beauty and art, and our ability to appreciate them and create them, the things that make us uniquely human, are strong suggestions of God to me.

 

I wonder what Bach would have written if he hadn't felt close to God, as per the title of this thread. What would have inspired him? And if he was mistaken, well, I'm thankful for his stupidity.

[Moai]

So we lie there and feel the worms munching on us--delightful. Leave it to you..

 

I have only skimmed through this, but I agree with much of what bluetuesday said about design.

 

I would also hope that you would take the tie to familiarize yourself with the basic biology involved, as far as design in life forms is concerned. I found that it made the world more wonderful and more exquisite than I had previously imagined.

 

And I don't know if anyone has said this, but beauty and art, and our ability to appreciate them and create them, the things that make us uniquely human, are strong suggestions of God to me.

 

Maybe. Given that art is different things to different people, it would seem that abstractly there is no art at all. We are certainly a creative species, that is certain. But all species are unique, or they wouldn't exist. We cannot glide through the water like a shark, we cannot run down gazelles with the speed and grace of a cheetah, we cannot hover over a flower like a hummingbird. Ever living thing is its own unique, beautiful expression of life. It fills me with awe, but not one which leads me to a supernatural omnibenevolent being somewhere.

 

I wonder what Bach would have written if he hadn't felt close to God, as per the title of this thread. What would have inspired him? And if he was mistaken, well, I'm thankful for his stupidity.

 

I would strongly disagree with your last statement. Perhaps it was just a figure of speech, perhaps not, but being mistaken does not mean that one is stupid. If he drew inspiration from god, that's his business, and I enjoy his music immensely. Does that mean he wasn't inspired by a delusion? No. Does that make what he created worthless, or less beautiful? No.

 

I may strongly disagree with his or many other theists conclusions, but I don't think that makes them stupid. I am not saying you were putting those words in my mouth, but at the same time it saddens me when I read things like that. There are many devout men throughout history that I admire and try to emulate in almost every way--save their god-belief.

 

There are many other beautiful things that were not inspired by god, as I am sure you know. Love of a woman unattainable, the majesty of the sunset, even a simple bowl of flowers has inspired some breathtaking art. The notion of god has, too. If Bach did not believe in god, who is to say that he wouldn't have created something equally beautiful for different reasons?

 

I don't need to believe in god to enjoy watching Charlton Heston in the "Ten Commandments" or "Ben Hur", do I? I also don't need to believe in god to find Mapplethorpe's work disgusting and offensive. I digress, sorry...

[Storyrider]

I would also hope that you would take the tie to familiarize yourself with the basic biology involved, as far as design in life forms is concerned. I found that it made the world more wonderful and more exquisite than I had previously imagined.

 

I agree. I wish I knew more about this. Some of it is disturbing, some beautiful.

 

Maybe. Given that art is different things to different people, it would seem that abstractly there is no art at all.

 

Come on! That is pure sophistry. Yes, there is a range of tastes in art, and in the appreciation of the aesthetic. You and I can disagree on what is good or bad, or even on what constitutes art. But even if you could convince me that the appreciation of art is 100% relative, you could not convince me there is no such thing as art itself. Why don't you tell me that because my friend says a color is red and I say it is maroon that there is no such thing as color.

 

We are certainly a creative species, that is certain. But all species are unique, or they wouldn't exist. We cannot glide through the water like a shark, we cannot run down gazelles with the speed and grace of a cheetah, we cannot hover over a flower like a hummingbird. Ever living thing is its own unique, beautiful expression of life. It fills me with awe, but not one which leads me to a supernatural omnibenevolent being somewhere.

 

Uniquely, humans can appreciate the beauty of all these things, while the shark doesn't care about Monet. Why are we like this?

 

 

I would strongly disagree with your last statement. Perhaps it was just a figure of speech, perhaps not, but being mistaken does not mean that one is stupid. If he drew inspiration from god, that's his business, and I enjoy his music immensely. Does that mean he wasn't inspired by a delusion? No. Does that make what he created worthless, or less beautiful? No.

 

I may strongly disagree with his or many other theists conclusions, but I don't think that makes them stupid. I am not saying you were putting those words in my mouth, but at the same time it saddens me when I read things like that. There are many devout men throughout history that I admire and try to emulate in almost every way--save their god-belief.

 

There are many other beautiful things that were not inspired by god, as I am sure you know. Love of a woman unattainable, the majesty of the sunset, even a simple bowl of flowers has inspired some breathtaking art. The notion of god has, too. If Bach did not believe in god, who is to say that he wouldn't have created something equally beautiful for different reasons?

 

I don't need to believe in god to enjoy watching Charlton Heston in the "Ten Commandments" or "Ben Hur", do I? I also don't need to believe in god to find Mapplethorpe's work disgusting and offensive. I digress, sorry...

 

I'm glad to hear it. We could probably go to Blockbuster and pick a movie together without arguing too much! But I think your separation between Bach's inspiration and his output is artificial. Is it accidental that there has not been another such like him, anywhere near like him, since the enlightenment and the onset of modernity? Will we have a secular Bach? The chances are slim to none.

[lonelybird]

 

The whole idea of God -much more the idea of being *close* to Him, is enough to scare most people.

 

The common concept is that -to even think about religion, or God, or involve yourself in any way, is sucking all the fun stuff right out of your life.

 

-Rio

what fun stuff?

 

And the way God-stuff is presented -no wonder people run! -those who are really "into" God are either too chummy and nice, and "just want to love you", and "want you to feel the peace and love through God that I feel" that you feel all queasy and sick and defensive.

Bible always have two effects on people who read it.

Love: stay in line with God's words;

anger of God: stay out of line with God's words.

and you cannot just tell one side.

about enjoy life, yes, God want us to enjoy life, and praise Him for the good stuff He give us. but don't miss "obey my commandments, then you will have abundant rejoice life". IN FACT, that's what we Christian want, that people have abundant rejoice life. but if they ignore God's laws, then they would get undesirable results.

 

and you won't tell your child "just do whatever you want", do you?

 

Or they're preaching the gospel night and day to everyone they meet and can *never* seem to have a normal, everyday conversation with anyone.

 

where does this come from?

 

If they could *only* present God-stuff in a way that makes it attractive -and doesn't make people avoid the "apostles" bringing such good news!

God's words is not some goods that needed to be marketed. God's words is God's words, never changed.

[burning 4 revenge]

The Dalai Lama is pretty close to God.

The Dalai Lama is an absurd prick

[Moai]

I agree. I wish I knew more about this. Some of it is disturbing, some beautiful.

 

I am constantly amazed.

 

Come on! That is pure sophistry. Yes, there is a range of tastes in art, and in the appreciation of the aesthetic. You and I can disagree on what is good or bad, or even on what constitutes art. But even if you could convince me that the appreciation of art is 100% relative, you could not convince me there is no such thing as art itself. Why don't you tell me that because my friend says a color is red and I say it is maroon that there is no such thing as color.

 

I take your meaning, but I think it was Marshall McCluhan who said that "art is what you can get away with." That is what I meant. If anything can be art, than nothing is art. That is not to say that I don't think art exists as a thing, I was referring to art abstractly.

 

Uniquely, humans can appreciate the beauty of all these things, while the shark doesn't care about Monet. Why are we like this?

 

Unknown. I think it is probably how our brains seek cause and effect, and meaning. Babies recognize pretty faces from ugly ones almost from birth.

 

Pigeons can recognize individual faces, and paintings. Whether they appreciate the asthetics is another question, but they can recognize the difference, which is pretty huge.

 

I'm glad to hear it. We could probably go to Blockbuster and pick a movie together without arguing too much! But I think your separation between Bach's inspiration and his output is artificial. Is it accidental that there has not been another such like him, anywhere near like him, since the enlightenment and the onset of modernity? Will we have a secular Bach? The chances are slim to none.

 

I don't think that we would argue much at all in the video store! But your assertions about Bach are opinion. In my view, we have had Bach's equal over an over. I have records that I enjoy at least as much as I do his stuff.

 

I love the song "Is There Anybody Out There" by Pink Floyd. It is so sadly beautiful it gives me pause whenever I hear it. I find it as beautiful as anything of Bach's I've heard. I know, that make me a dilettant, but there it is...

[Storyrider]

I love the song "Is There Anybody Out There" by Pink Floyd. It is so sadly beautiful it gives me pause whenever I hear it. I find it as beautiful as anything of Bach's I've heard. I know, that make me a dilettant, but there it is...

 

I hear you on the enjoyment part. I can see myself changing the radio station from Bach to "Good Times, Bad Times" by Led Zepellin. Or even something pretty mediocre, like "Funkytown." Some of it is mood, of course.

 

And some of it is my own nature. I guess IMO, there is more of the sublime to Bach, and more of the inspired. Some days I am just not good enough for it.

 

Some of the music I enjoy the most, quite frankly, is probably inspired by something much darker. But human nature is not all light, that is for sure.

[burning 4 revenge]

Many of Bach's best pieces are melancholy and I don't feel they're inherently religious. Except when the chorals sing about God of course. But I don't usually associate Bach with religious music.

[Moai]

I tend toward the melancholy myself. I am not sure why that is, but it seems that love lost or never realized is more beautiful and touching than love won.

 

That is not to say I listen to the Smiths all the time, or even like any Emo bands. If there is a tinge of the whine in it that kills it.

[riobikini]

re:

 

 

 

Riobikini: " The whole idea of God -much more the idea of being *close* to Him, is enough to scare most people.

 

The common concept is that -to even think about religion, or God, or involve yourself in any way, is sucking all the fun stuff right out of your life."

 

 

LonelyBird: " what fun stuff?"

 

 

Exactly, my point.

 

(Smile)

 

 

 

 

Riobikini: " And the way God-stuff is presented -no wonder people run! -those who are really "into" God are either too chummy and nice, and "just want to love you", and "want you to feel the peace and love through God that I feel" that you feel all queasy and sick and defensive. "

 

LonelyBird: " Bible always have two effects on people who read it.

Love: stay in line with God's words;

anger of God: stay out of line with God's words.

and you cannot just tell one side.

about enjoy life, yes, God want us to enjoy life, and praise Him for the good stuff He give us. but don't miss "obey my commandments, then you will have abundant rejoice life". IN FACT, that's what we Christian want, that people have abundant rejoice life. but if they ignore God's laws, then they would get undesirable results.

 

and you won't tell your child "just do whatever you want", do you? "

 

 

Only when I know their choices are safe, healthy, and in line with their total wellbeing, LB.

 

As to the effects of the Bible upon it's readers -the context of my statement you answered to, involved a diagram of *people* (not The Book) who are zealous, disrespectful, and oblivious to how they actually come across to others in their approach to over-enthusiastically present their version of the "gospel".

 

 

 

 

Riobikini: " Or they're preaching the gospel night and day to everyone they meet and can *never* seem to have a normal, everyday conversation with anyone."

 

LonelyBird: " where does this come from?"

 

 

Same perspective as the above response.

 

It's a natural reaction of many to avoid contact with religious zealots who emphatically preach -without exhaustion- a constant stream of "Godspeak" without respect to others, and who cannot seem to understand that most folks are God-fearing enough without having to incorporate a Bible verse into every other conversation they have, or who attempt to convert the person -on the spot- in front of them in line at the bank or grocery.

 

I've, personally, had such religious people -considering themselves "on fire for God"- to follow me through the parking lot out to my car (with my frightened, confused children in tow, no less), practically shouting their convictions and condemning beliefs, until I turned around, looked them in the eye and threatened to have them arrested for harassment.

 

Their response to my threat? Anything but "Christian" , " Well, I tried -you didn't listen- you shunned God- you're on your way to hell, you know..."

 

(Smile) And they knew nothing about me -except that I refused to be subjected to their torrent of forceful preaching.

 

What's offensive? These kinds of people automatically assume that their target is *without* God -and proceed to preach -and simply, wholeheartedly, believe that they're exempt from following the same rules of common decency as everyone else -as well as ignoring the laws prohibiting harassment.

 

It's one thing to hold tightly to a belief -it can be a crime to attempt to force-feed it to others.

 

 

 

 

Riobikini: " If they could *only* present God-stuff in a way that makes it attractive -and doesn't make people avoid the "apostles" bringing such good news!

 

LonelyBird: " God's words is not some goods that needed to be marketed. God's words is God's words, never changed."

 

Whether anyone wants to admit it, or not -packaging *is* important.

 

And I think, concerning religion, the best way to go about making the beliefs you hold attractive, is by showing what/how the particular beliefs have played a positive role in your life.

 

You accomplish that by how *you* represent your religion with your actions, your speech, and in your approach to others.

 

Somewhere in scripture, I believe it is conveyed but nearly *always* missed- love one another -yes!- but don't *smother* them, and certainly, *do not* provoke them to negative emotions and reactions.

 

(Smile)

 

All said with respect and in kindness, LB.

 

-Rio

[Love Hurts]

re:

 

 

 

 

The whole idea of God -much more the idea of being *close* to Him, is enough to scare most people.

 

The common concept is that -to even think about religion, or God, or involve yourself in any way, is sucking all the fun stuff right out of your life.

 

And the way God-stuff is presented -no wonder people run! -those who are really "into" God are either too chummy and nice, and "just want to love you", and "want you to feel the peace and love through God that I feel" that you feel all queasy and sick and defensive.

 

Or they're preaching the gospel night and day to everyone they meet and can *never* seem to have a normal, everyday conversation with anyone.

 

If they could *only* present God-stuff in a way that makes it attractive -and doesn't make people avoid the "apostles" bringing such good news!

 

(Smile)

 

It's one thing to sit down and have a conversation on the patio with someone and get to hear about their vacation, their kids and family, and a few other interesting things that you can reciprocate with your own account of what's going on in *your* life.

 

But it's quite another when the conversation drones on and on -one sided- all about God, God-stuff, religion, what's going on at church, what last Sunday's scripture reading was all about, and how God can bless, bless, bless my life if I'd only pattern myself after others who are in hot pursuit of God.

 

(Smile)

 

Frankly, I don't think you have to go -or look- very far to "find" God.

 

It also occurs to me that God probably doesn't want to be the center of *all* our conversation every second -and that He'd probably like it very well if we'd just try to enjoy the life He has -indeed- blessed us with.

 

Acknowledgment of God -and praise, and thanks to Him- varies in method from person to person.

 

For myself -I don't have to spout verses all day long, or always refer to Scripture in conversation to convey a point, or stop to make a demonstration of prayer in a restaurant.

 

I don't feel *compelled*.

 

And I certainly, don't feel as if I'm shutting God out.

 

Instead, I feel free to enjoy the life He's given me.

 

And that freedom makes me as close as I can get to Him -without all the hoopla.

 

-Rio

 

Rio,

 

Presenting another view on your post;

 

God doesn’t want to suck all the fun stuff out of our lives only the sin that’s the diff.

 

People are so confused they want to hear of the love of God and not the truth of God.

 

If they hear the love of God…its sickening and makes them queasy and if they hear the truth its too much and one should refrain from speaking such things namely such things as; the wages of sin is death and death renders an eternal state of being in hell.

 

Children of God have a normal life in God. They are not of this world they are separate from the world. They can; go sky diving, mountain climbing, boating, work out, run races hold decent paying jobs take vacations tour the world try new foods and marvel at the wonders of the world and see the hand of God in many things … they raise their families in the Lord.

 

Children of God can live this life to the fullest, its just a different fullness from that which the secular world is offering and selling.

 

I am a child of God and have normal conversations all the time. Sometimes I may simply end with a God Bless. Time circumstances or a situation does not always permit for a conversation on God.

 

I understand that. We have to be discerning or things can get out of hand and there instead of offering the Lord it’s a push or its just a good moment. So we have to discern when and when not too also we render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is Gods…

 

If mans law says be silent; then do so….[referring to many of the work place rules of today]. Also there are times that to offer the word of God; God has already said don’t do it… don’t cast your pearls to swine. It’s useless so we have to discern.

 

You also need to factor in Saved have come out from amongst them and them is the world. Spiritually there is a diff. Also the Holy Spirit within a person does indeed speak out.

 

If one is saved and suppresses the Holy Spirit and never speaks out for God to the world. Then we have a new page… Its called Denial of Christ…..Ashamed of Christ……..

 

 

Matthew 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

Lets not be ashamed of our Saviour and deny Him before men. Lest He in turn is ashamed of us and denies us before His Father.

 

As far as prayer in a restaurant that’s up to the individual and one needs to check their heart in doing so. Are they truly giving praise to God or is this that they seek the glory of men on earth?

 

That is in the heart of the individual and between them and God… God reads hearts and knows the truth.

 

In short our relationhip with God is an individual as we are… yet there are the same set of rules for us all in the Lord. If we claim Him as Lord. Then let us not deny Him before men on earth or be ashamed of Him.

 

Also if we were blessed enough through others that we too found God; then why do we keep Him to ourselves and not offer Him to another that is seeking more in their life?

 

As we as individuals walk joyously in our personal relationship with the Lord. I think it of great importance we need know what it is God does expect of us. We need to discern what is considered hoopla and what is denial of Christ. Silence is not always Golden.

 

God Bless* Matthew 10:33

[riobikini]

re:

 

Love Hurts: " God doesn’t want to suck all the fun stuff out of our lives.....In short our relationhip with God is an individual as we are… yet there are the same set of rules for us all....."

 

Agreed -and agreed!

 

-Rio