Charismatic religious Leaders

[Topper]

Last night I watched a Documentary on Jim Jones and Jones town. It is almost beyond believe that 909 people would take their own lives on the order of one man. To this day do we have a better understanding of why people surrender their will to these leaders? Other groups with Charismatic leaders such as David koresh and the Branch Davidian's,The Havens Gate cult have also ended in suicide and Murder. All this is done in the name of religion and faith.

To a lesser degree we have other Religious Leaders Like Ted Haggerty, Jim Baker and Jimmy swaggart. All seem to have a control over many of their followers. The followers seem to be blinded to the differences these men were teaching and what they werereally doing.

What is it about these men that make people believe that they are so special? why do people follow men Like this?

[boshemia]

I have family that goes to Ted Haggards Church, I have heard him speak myself... his messages were excellent. I liked him because he preached about the churches working WITH each other instead of fighting amongst themselves. He did a lot of good work inside and outside of his church, and even after his fall from grace I have been very impressed with the way members of his church have handled it.

 

Me, since I have stepped away from the church, I am not offended by his "sins" rather... I find him more human now, somebody I could actually relate to.

 

The others on your list Ehhh... Jim Baker, Jimmy swaggart, Benny Hin, and Pat Robertson do not speak for me, or to me. They actually give me a really bad feeling. Most of the televangelists raise more questions for me than they answer.

 

Now... the cult leaders you mentioned, step that feeling up a hundred levels. I look at Charles Manson and wonder how anybody could have seen him as a prophet and been willing to kill for him. They showed him on television again yesterday and he has the same eyes as Heaven's Gate guy did, Rasputin, those eyes look like they are buring right through you. I would venture a guess that they actually inspired as much fear as anything resembling faith.

 

What makes them special? They were charismatic, they had a way of finding people with a lot of pain and lonliness in their lives and filling them with love, attention, and a chance to be special to someone.

 

"When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true-it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions to follow a rainbow."

 

by Jeannie Mills — aka Deanna Mertle — who was an early defector from the Peoples Temple, author of the book "Six years with God," and co-founder of the Concerned Relatives and the Human Freedom Center. Jeannie Mills was murdered in 1980, along with her husband and daughter.

[Love Hurts]

--Jesus Christ told the people to beware of the prophets in the world.

 

Mat 24:11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many."

 

Mat 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you."

 

Jer 28:9 )The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him.

 

Jer 23:13) And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

 

14) I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

 

Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

 

 

--We are to test the spirits for truth and consistency with scripture. There should be no pretense of scripture for conciliation of man. This is false and leads many away from truth.

 

__________________________________

 

As for chasmaric, many today seek a sign from God something more. As the word of God is insufficient to the unsaved they long for a sign of proof that God is real. Many fall for the gift of others as they speak in tongue.

 

Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

 

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

 

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

 

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

--In as much as it is a gift of God. Many unsaved can walk into the house of God speaking in a tongue that is not interpreted and speak for Satan, leading many away from the Lord Jesus.

 

This is the diff- the saved do not need to hear tongue. We can be and indeed are motivated by the word of God alone.

 

The gift is to edify God, others, and the speaker.

 

In my personal opinion; if the speaker of tongue is true then for every tongue there should be an interpreter of that tongue in the same congregation that can tell what is being said.

 

If there is no interpretation given then the congregation is left in the dark as to what is being said; since most cannot understand it.

 

 

4. To bring a message from God {when interpreted} I Corinthians 14:5, 27, 28;

 

:5… except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

 

:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

 

:28 if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

 

--More often speaking in tongue is a gift we have to want and to ask for… it’s a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, not always a direct given of the Holy Spirit.

 

Further proof we must listen to the message of that speaker, is it true to Gods word or not?

 

*:28 if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

--In short I do not deny the gift of speaking in tongue I know it is a gift of God.

 

I listen, if there is none to interpret what is being said, then;

" I am hearing a violation of scripture”.

 

 

God said let there be an interpreter that we may know, hear and understand the tongue.

 

[And this alone helps to weed out many false prophets or those fallen short of the Glory of God]

 

--We have to test the spirits.

 

God Bless*

[westernxer]

To this day do we have a better understanding of why people surrender their will to these leaders?

 

Yes.

 

Some people like being sheep, even if they're nothing more than lambs to the slaughter.

[riobikini]

re:

 

Topper: " What is it about these men that make people believe that they are so special? why do people follow men Like this?"

 

These men represent power.

 

Or mysterious access to power.

 

And the people who are drawn to it are seeking -specifically- something to empower them.

 

Their own weaknesses spur the pursuit of it -and in the blur of that pursuit, they are blinded by what is obvious to "outsiders", in regards to the flaws in their leader, their lifeline to the source of power.

 

-Rio

[a4a]

The followers are emotionally starving. These types of people know how to feed them emotional cookies to keep them in the flock and make them feel "wanted-loved-important"....... they cannot seem to get that without these leaders...... only the leaders understand them.

 

sad........ very very very sad.

[Topper]

Love hurts, I would be very careful of some of the Ministers that you seem to follow. I have gone to some of the links that you have provided. One of the surest ways to get a following is with end times messages. Many seem to make some far out claims and make some rather far fetched interpretations of Bible passages.

[Love Hurts]

Love hurts, I would be very careful of some of the Ministers that you seem to follow. I have gone to some of the links that you have provided. One of the surest ways to get a following is with end times messages. Many seem to make some far out claims and make some rather far fetched interpretations of Bible passages.

 

 

I’m glad you brought that up… the greatest problem is many cannot discern the times we are in. The greatest factor alone might just be that we are the generation to see 666 come to life and grow … yet we are warned do not look at only one sign but we have many to go by.

 

Its been said what is the difference between now and Neros Day?

Communication alone was not possible world wide in real time.. yet alone globally unite the world.

 

Tracking of every citizen on planet earth was only a thought now its more than possible its in the working and it is available.

 

A one world government as described in the book of Daniel…. Look into the N.W.O. and see how far fetched that concept is.

If you’re a resident of the U.S.A. and you think its impossible the U.S. could collapse from within?

 

Look at FEMA and see if your constitutional rights have not already been decided to be eliminated in a moments notice.

My friend there are countless signs to take in to consideration…

Signs in government.

 

Signs in the church.

 

Signs in the heavens and earth.

 

Signs in the character of men.

 

Signs of revelation of 666.

 

Signs of pestilence and disease.

 

Signs of false prophets and many that rise up and say “I AM” god.

 

Signs of war and rumors of war and keep your eye on Israel. These are Gods elect….even though they are predominantly blind to Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

 

For any and all that shrug off the signs and say it always was and we are no closer to… you fool yourself. If all you have to look at is 666 then see. We are living in Revelation my friend and soon the unimaginable will happen … Christ will do what He promised and Rapture His Church Home... then the Tribulation on earth will begin.

 

At this point I can be called crazy or misinformed… It does not matter. All any that know can do is share… some will hear and some will not.

 

 

I listened to Dawkins the other day and he something that is so true… He said: ‘I am not speaking to the true Christians I am speaking to those that are weak in or undecided… if you hear me then I am speaking to you… if not then you are not the one I am speaking to.’

 

God says the similar… God said, ‘ my sheep hear my voice’… see some hear God and some hear another calling… it has always been and always will be till its over.

 

Its who we hear that governs us and who we choose to hear is governed first by our hearts.

 

Farfetched… hmmm I say...you don’t know the word of God….or is it that you don’t believe it? Last day scoffers of … are also part of the signs to watch for… in conglomeration no less.

 

 

 

God Bless*

[a4a]

The mothership was supposed to be here long ago and many times...... it still has not shown up..... but it will because it rained today... it is a sign of the coming of the mothership.

[quankanne]

there's some kind of void these people feel that a charismatic leader fills, and they become more lovable, powerful, credible. The good ones help you make a better life because they help you see yourself in a positive manner; the bad ones pretty much steal your soul by manipulating your pain and loneliness to glorify themselves. Like the Jim Joneses and Charles Manson ...

[Moai]

there's some kind of void these people feel that a charismatic leader fills, and they become more lovable, powerful, credible. The good ones help you make a better life because they help you see yourself in a positive manner; the bad ones pretty much steal your soul by manipulating your pain and loneliness to glorify themselves. Like the Jim Joneses and Charles Manson ...

 

Yep. I don't think that people apply skepticism as they should, especially to their own beliefs. I am sure that Jim Jones made many of those people feel wanted, accepted, and what he preached made sense. The same for Heaven's Gate. I think that inherent in all god-belief is the potential for this kind of event. A lot of people would not go quite that far, because at some point their rational mind says, "Hey, wait a minute." Even still, Muslims are blowing themselves up on buses for the same reason.

 

I recall an example in the LDS church (the one in Missouri, not the huge one in Utah--that is RLDS) where a man had a following and he eventually convinced his members to murder an entire family, who were also in his cult. It happens in faiths of all stripes.

[riobikini]

My experiences have taught me well -and as much as I can- I avoid personally engaging with those who can't have a conversation without #1- "sharing something about God", and #2 -using the most disgusting foul language.

 

It shows what's inside *both* representations of the most annoying groups of people in our society - ridiculous arrogance.

 

And that's *despite* what lovely people they *think* they are being.

 

They seem to be *addicted* to something that bolsters them, inspires them, giving them such a misled belief that others have this desperate "need" and longing for whatever it is they think they have "found" that is "unique" and wonderful, and have applied to their own lives to "enhance" it.

 

Of the first type, most sincerely believe they have carte blanche in being the "bearers of Good News" and this belief prompts them to condemn others -with the "gospel", of course, because it's a commandment to "tell everyone you meet"- and if someone avoids them, of course, they're "going straight to hell".

 

(Smile)

 

Not!

 

Not because *they* say so.

 

That's up to God.

 

And they should leave it that way.

 

Collectively, these types of people are masterpieces of illusion, confusion, and delusion -and I can't bring myself to peer more deeply into the psyche that steers their lifestyle and choices.

 

It must be sheer hell.

 

Thanks to my own personal pursuit in my much earlier years trying to found out who God truly is, if He truly exists, leading to the most important question: where/what my purpose is during this lifetime -I *already* know my place in regards to spiritual matters, as only I understand them -and stand little chance of wasting my time listening to the ramblings and ravings of ridiculous "on fire for God" lunatics.

 

-Rio

[Topper]

I would urge everyone to read the Book "Under the Banner of Heaven. "

written by Jon Krakauer.

Jon normally writes about outdoor adventures, His other books are Into thin Air and Into the Void.

He was in southern Utah and he was fascinated by what he sew in the Polygamist Fundamentalist Latter day Saints Chruch that dominate that part of the country.

[bluetuesday]

Yep. I don't think that people apply skepticism as they should, especially to their own beliefs. I am sure that Jim Jones made many of those people feel wanted, accepted, and what he preached made sense. The same for Heaven's Gate. I think that inherent in all god-belief is the potential for this kind of event. A lot of people would not go quite that far, because at some point their rational mind says, "Hey, wait a minute." Even still, Muslims are blowing themselves up on buses for the same reason.

 

i don't know if the primary reason is a void (although some part of it will be), but i agree with what westernxer said about people wanting to be led. some people have opted out of making their own choices. they want to be told what to do. they don't want the responsibility for thinking about things and making decisions for themselves, because the perceive the stakes to be high if they get it wrong.

 

this desire not to be wrong makes them susceptible to anyone who tells them 'do this and you will be saved'. it's more pronounced in people who are members of cults, but i think it's also present in people who take refuge in any faith where they're told they have to do a, b, and c in order to be saved and are not encouraged to question their faith or are told to accept the response 'it's a mystery' without question.

 

i have found a great rule of thumb to be this: question everything. if anyone tells you not to ask questions, they're hiding something. if anyone tells you they have found the answers and will tell you the answers but NOT how to find them for yourself, be suspicious. and if anyone who claims to be a man of god tells you to do one thing while practicing something else, run.

[riobikini]

re:

 

"Thanks to my own personal pursuit in my much earlier years trying to found out who God truly is, if He truly exists, leading to the most important question: where/what my purpose is during this lifetime .."

 

That's "...trying to find...." .

 

Pardon the typo.

 

Jeeeezus!

 

(What? -no bolt of lightening directed towards me for that?)

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio

[Topper]

Now who would dare send a bolt of lightning your way?