How do you know your beliefs are right?

[knaveman]

Just want to chime my two cents in here if I may.

 

Truth is absolutely a matter of perspective. We believe based on our circumstances. If we are inherently positve or negative people, Christian or Muslim, conservative or liberal. All effects what we see as the truth. Two people can see the same thing and have totally different views on what was the truth about what happened. Neither may be wrong, just different.

 

Example, is the sky partly cloudy or partly sunny? Is the glass half empty or half full. All a matter of perspective and all true. We all look at the same world every day and see so many different things. What you see is true to you and what I see is true to me and neither of us can convice the other of our own truths.

[lonelybird]

Just want to chime my two cents in here if I may.

 

Truth is absolutely a matter of perspective. We believe based on our circumstances. If we are inherently positve or negative people, Christian or Muslim, conservative or liberal. All effects what we see as the truth. Two people can see the same thing and have totally different views on what was the truth about what happened. Neither may be wrong, just different.

 

Example, is the sky partly cloudy or partly sunny? Is the glass half empty or half full. All a matter of perspective and all true. We all look at the same world every day and see so many different things. What you see is true to you and what I see is true to me and neither of us can convice the other of our own truths.

Truth has nothing to do OUR thinking.

 

If a person jump, do you think he will fly high? you have an absolute answer, that he will fall back on the ground.

 

Kingdom of heaven is the same absolute truth. If without Holy Spirit a person cannot gain eternal life by his own efforts, because it is impossible.

 

A person who think he get the eternal life by his own effort provoke pride. I saw many of these people are very pride and self-righteousness. but they themselves don't think so

 

To gain eternal life is about God's mercy and grace, if without God's Holy Spirit, changing from within is very difficult for a person have very limited carnal ability

[knaveman]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Truth is based on our beliefs and what we know. We make our own truth. You believe the bible to be the truth for your own reasons. I don't believe it to be the truth for my own reasons.

 

If I see a man shoot and kill another man I believe the shooter to be in the wrong. If you saw the same thing only got there two minutes before me and saw the victim trying to kill the shooter first you way the victim is wrong. Neither of us is wrong, it is a matter of perspective.

 

If a person jumps he does not always fall, sometimes he grabs onto something and pulls himself up higher. Did he jump or did he fall? It's all perspective.

 

Granted some things are absolute, but matters of faith are not or there would be not faith involved. It would be fact.

[riobikini]

re:

 

LonelyBird: "Truth has nothing to do OUR thinking. "

 

 

Truth has no purpose, unless it has something to do with our thinking.

 

While the power in truth or the truth, itself, may not originate from, or be authenticated by, our ability to understand it -I do not think we can harm truth by not being able to grasp it.

 

If this is what you are attempting to say, then I accept it.

 

-Rio

[riobikini]

re:

 

LonelyBird: "To gain eternal life is about God's mercy and grace, if without God's Holy Spirit, changing from within is very difficult for a person have very limited carnal ability."

 

As to the statement above -there's alot to talk about just in those few words.

 

People do have very limited ability in both the physical and Spritual sense in comparison to (if only we knew) the energy, power, and expanse that exists in a much broader sense of the realms -and yet, I think we, as a society of human beings, haven't even begun to tap into and realize just how full of grace we are in our human form.

 

Explanation to my thinking is based on this: I believe we are on a mission -whether we ever fully grasp that idea as humans or not- and that mission requires grace to accomplish some of the tasks and twists and turns to get to the point of the mission.

 

And grace has to be supplied by a source of something energetic and powerful enough to fuel the mission and which is inherently injected into the spiritual dimension of our design.

 

I agree that grace is necessary -and is, indeed, a gift- but that it doesn't have to be (and isn't) necessarily attained via martyrship, or someone having to die to win it in order to possess it and pass it on to us.

 

I think the grace is already present in us and to draw from it requires a "vehicle" (a life, and more succintly,living your life) as a participant in a journey, in order to "kick start" the grace -or cause it to begin to activate and demonstrate its strength to you and for you and through you as you journey through the mission and accomplish what you were uniquely designed to do as an individual.

 

Sounds complicated but isn't.

 

There are points of opportunity along the path of that journey for growth that shape you -or rather your Spirit- for its appearance beyond the life of just your body.

 

I think you take that with you and some of what you create as your "self" or personality, and it is woven within the threads of your Spirit forever.

 

To clarify, I believe the kind of journey you experience as a human being living in this dimension will determine the shape and disposition of how you present back to your Source the day your body dies.

 

I think your Spiritual shape and disposition -or the "turnout" of who you have become and whatever perspectives you may hold at the time you are re-introduced or presented again to your Source- will quickly be expanded and, in a sense, used as the nucleus for what your Spirit is then transformed into.

 

But more about the grace issue while living as a human being going about his mission in this (earthly) dimension.

 

I think it absolutely does require grace -and I think we would fail miserably with out it -and that's why I believe it is given freely and placed within us without having to die for it or having anyone else bargain, trade, compete, or beg for it.

 

The core basis for grace is that it is given freely, without any attachment whatsoever.

 

And it can never leave you -but that your understanding for having ever had to have it in the first palce, will be increased much later, in a life review that will happen just for your own edification and explaination of all your unanswered questions.

 

You see the mission we are all on is one we can never fail -only do less than we are capable of by not grabbing those opportunities for growth that I was talking about earlier.

 

Everyone has a mission, everyone gets the chance to choose his path and shape his Spirit- and no one is left out, it is simply not possible.

 

The eternal life is everyone's destination and inherent right to receive, and it cannot be owned by the "rule books" of any religion, government, or people.

 

Despite attempts to do so by writing restrictions, and forming rituals, or compiling charts to categorize the people who will pass and the people who will fail.

 

Because the hereafter is just that -the hereafter- and it's just vague enough to create perfect opportunity for those seeking to keep trying to "own" the rule book of what happens then.

 

An open invitation, practically -and I think that's part of the function of the gift of inherent grace that we're give -it's to guide you and strengthen you and keep you focused in your mission.

 

And that's really when the trouble begins and people are tested for knowledge they simply have not attained by paying attention to their journey and mission -and it gives others the opportunity to distract them from their right to their understanding and development of their very own Spirit.

 

The fear can be paralyzing to someone who's not well aquainted with their Spirit side and this can land them down a meandering path of cults, and religions, and anything they can cling to that makes them feel secure and "set" for whatever lies in the hereafter.

 

And it may seem easier for some to just trash the idea of a hereafter, altogether, and live their life with one-dimensional perceptions and beliefs, as an athiest, or agnostic.

 

It seems simpler -but it probably isn't- because your Spirit side can only be crammed back, and hidden for just so long.

 

Even if you subdue it with force and with anger, apply science and rely on fact, and/or just ignore it -since it's the only part of you that has the ability to remain in existence and cannot die, it will always find ways to demonstrate its presence.

 

Unexplainably erupting demonstrations, by the way, to which you can always keep secret, or attribute to anything you like -but that are there, nonetheless.

 

-Rio

[riobikini]

re:

 

LonelyBird: "To gain eternal life is about God's mercy and grace, if without God's Holy Spirit, changing from within is very difficult for a person have very limited carnal ability."

 

As to the statement above -there's alot to talk about just in those few words.

 

People do have very limited ability in both the physical and Spritual sense in comparison to (if only we knew) the energy, power, and expanse that exists in a much broader sense of the realms -and yet, I think we, as a society of human beings, haven't even begun to tap into and realize just how full of grace we are in our human form.

 

Explanation to my thinking is based on this: I believe we are on a mission -whether we ever fully grasp that idea as humans or not- and that mission requires grace to accomplish some of the tasks and twists and turns to get to the point of the mission.

 

And grace has to be supplied by a source of something energetic and powerful enough to fuel the mission and which is inherently injected into the spiritual dimension of our design.

 

I agree that grace is necessary -and is, indeed, a gift- but that it doesn't have to be (and isn't) necessarily attained via martyrship, or someone having to die to win it in order to possess it and pass it on to us.

 

I think the grace is already present in us and to draw from it requires a "vehicle" (a life, and more succintly,living your life) as a participant in a journey, in order to "kick start" the grace -or cause it to begin to activate and demonstrate its strength to you and for you and through you as you journey through the mission and accomplish what you were uniquely designed to do as an individual.

 

Sounds complicated but isn't.

 

There are points of opportunity along the path of that journey for growth that shape you -or rather your Spirit- for its appearance beyond the life of just your body.

 

I think you take that with you and some of what you create as your "self" or personality, it is woven within the threads of your Spirit forever.

 

To clarify, I believe the kind of journey you experienced as a human being living in this dimension will determine the shape and disposition of how you present back to your Source the day your body dies.

 

I think your Spiritual shape and disposition -or the "turnout" of who you have become and whatever perspectives you may hold at the time you are re-introduced or presented again to your Source- will quickly be expanded and, in a sense, used as the nucleus for what your Spirit is then transformed into.

 

But more about the grace issue while living as a human being going about his mission in this (eartly) dimension.

 

I think it absolutely does require grace -and I think we would fail miserably with out it -and that's why I believe it is given freely and placed within us without having to die for it or having anyone else bargain, trade, compete, or beg for it.

 

You see the mission we are all on is one we can never fail -only do less than we are capable of by not grabbing those opportunities for growth that I was talking about earlier.

 

Everyone has a mission, everyone gets the chance to choose his path and shape his Spirit- and no one is left out, it is simply not possible.

 

The eternal life is everyone's destination and inherent right to receive, and it cannot be owned by the "rule books" of any religion, government, or people.

 

Despite attempts to do so by writing restrictions, and forming rituals, or compiling charts to categorize the people who will pass and the people who will fail.

 

Because the hereafter is just that -the hereafter- it's just vague enough to create perfect opportunity for those seeking to keep trying to "own" the rule book of what happens then.

 

And that's really when the trouble begins and people are tested for knowledge they simply have not attained by paying attention to their journey and mission -and it gives others the opportunity to distract them from their right to their understanding and development of their very own Spirit.

 

The fear can be paralyzing to someone who's not well aquainted with their Spirit side and this can land them down a meandering path of cults, and religions, and anything they can cling to that makes them feel secure and "set" for whatever lies in the hereafter.

 

And it may seem easier for some to just trash the idea of a hereafter, altogether, and live their life with one-dimensional perceptions and belief, as an athiest, or agnostic.

 

It seems simpler -but it probably isn't- because your Spirit side can only be crammed back, and hidden for just so long.

 

Even if you subdue it with force and with anger, apply science and rely on fact, and/or just ignore it -since it's the only part of you that has the ability to remain in existence and cannot die, it will always find ways to demonstrate its presence.

 

Unexplainably erupting demonstrations, by the way, to which you can always keep secret, or attribute to anything you like -but that are there, nonetheless.

 

But it will be grace -ironically- which will be allowing you to discredit it, dissect it, explain it, ignore it, or whatever you choose to do to handle it.

 

-Rio

 

P.S. Sorry for the double post -I want to add that last line and the computer did a back-flip on me.

[Moai]

re:

 

As to the statement above -there's alot to talk about just in those few words.

 

People do have very limited ability in both the physical and Spritual sense in comparison to (if only we knew) the energy, power, and expanse that exists in a much broader sense of the realms -and yet, I think we, as a society of human beings, haven't even begun to tap into and realize just how full of grace we are in our human form.

 

In human form? What other form would we be in, and still be able to communicate with other humans, or understand reality as a human? And what are these "realms" exactly?

Explanation to my thinking is based on this: I believe we are on a mission -whether we ever fully grasp that idea as humans or not- and that mission requires grace to accomplish some of the tasks and twists and turns to get to the point of the mission.

 

You believe that we are on a mission. That's great as far as that goes, but what do you base that belief on? And how can you know what the point of this "mission" is?

 

And grace has to be supplied by a source of something energetic and powerful enough to fuel the mission and which is inherently injected into the spiritual dimension of our design.

 

If one accepts your (unprovable) premise, why does grace HAVE to be supplied by SOMETHING energetic and powerful, etc.? And by saying we have a design, how were we designed, what sort of entity designed us, and why? How do you know?

 

BY implying design you are not accepting reality for what it is. We are not "intelligently" designed--in point of fact, we are not designed at all in the sense that a car is designed or a computer is designed. No life on Earth is. Even a cursory study of biology will demonstrate that. Unless, of course, you wish to imply an inept and incompetant designer, in which case knock yourself out.

 

I agree that grace is necessary -and is, indeed, a gift- but that it doesn't have to be (and isn't) necessarily attained via martyrship, or someone having to die to win it in order to possess it and pass it on to us.

 

Grace from whom or what?

 

I think the grace is already present in us and to draw from it requires a "vehicle" (a life, and more succintly,living your life) as a participant in a journey, in order to "kick start" the grace -or cause it to begin to activate and demonstrate its strength to you and for you and through you as you journey through the mission and accomplish what you were uniquely designed to do as an individual.

 

Uh-huh. When you write, "accomplish what you were designed to do" how can this be determined? Is it possible to live your whole life and NOT accomplish this? And if that is so, what happens then?

 

Sounds complicated but isn't.

 

It sounds non-sensical and it is.

 

There are points of opportunity along the path of that journey for growth that shape you -or rather your Spirit- for its appearance beyond the life of just your body.

 

It is true that the human spirit is shaped by experience. Whether that lasts after you die is an open question--and probably false.

 

I think you take that with you and some of what you create as your "self" or personality, it is woven within the threads of your Spirit forever.

 

I think that your Spirit rides to the Heavens on a majestic unicorn, accompanied by songbirds and rainbows, and then you arrive in a huge meadow, and the deer and the badgers and the weasels and the cute little frogs are all your friends. There are no insects save butterflies, of course. You spend the rest of eternity laughing and playing with your loved ones and the animals, wearing lightweight white clothes and crowns of flowers.

 

Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you. There is just as much evidence for your scenario as mine, and mine makes me feel good, so far be it from you or anyone else to criticize it. I would mention that unicorns are mentioned in the Bible, so if you use the Bible as evidence I am one up.

 

To clarify, I believe the kind of journey you experienced as a human being living in this dimension will determine the shape and disposition of how you present back to your Source the day your body dies.

 

You mean the Sun? The Sun is the source of all the energy in our solar system, I think. Is Spirit immune to heat?

 

I think your Spiritual shape and disposition -or the "turnout" of who you have become and whatever perspectives you may hold at the time you are re-introduced or presented again to your Source- will quickly be expanded and, in a sense, used as the nucleus for what your Spirit is then transformed into.

 

Do you really think like this? It's great if it makes you feel better about your own mortality, I guess, but such convoluted double-speak really doesn't mean anything.

 

But more about the grace issue while living as a human being going about his mission in this (eartly) dimension.

 

How are you using the term "dimension" by the way? How are these other dimensions experienced, and since we can only experience four, how do you know they are there?

 

I think it absolutely does require grace -and I think we would fail miserably with out it -and that's why I believe it is given freely and placed within us without having to die for it or having anyone else bargain, trade, compete, or beg for it.

 

Uh-huh.

 

You see the mission we are all on is one we can never fail -only do less than we are capable of by not grabbing those opportunities for growth that I was talking about earlier.

 

So Dahmer didn't fail? Bundy didn't fail? I suppose not, now that I think about it. I am sure their experiences enriched their Spirit and they used their journey to grow and all that before they reunited with Source.

 

Everyone has a mission, everyone gets the chance to choose his path and shape his Spirit- and no one is left out, it is simply not possible.

 

I would prefer to be left out. Why is that not possible?

 

The eternal life is everyone's destination and inherent right to receive, and it cannot be owned by the "rule books" of any religion, government, or people.

 

What you are writing here is a kind of "rule book", for one thing, and for another you have no idea if there is eternal life or not. Where would this eternal life take place--you are aware that the Universe is not eternal, right? In about 50 billion years it is going to rip apart. What happens to Source then? Where does it go, with no Universe to exist in?

 

Despite attempts to do so by writing restrictions, and forming rituals, or compiling charts to categorize the people who will pass and the people who will fail.

 

Ritual is an important part of human existence, and are not necessarily religious. Most religious rituals are based on humans understanding of cause and effect, nothing more. Religious rituals in particualr are determined in an ad hoc fashion and are fallacious, but that doesn't stop them from "seeming" true and making people feel better.

 

In fact, those charts you deride make people feel a lot better than your New Age version of things. "If I do (or believe) 'x' then I will get 'y' reward when I die" is a very comforting thought, and takes the guesswork out of things--which most people seem to need.

 

Those restrictions and rituals are based on the same evidence you have and have just as much chance of being true as everything you have written here.

 

Because the hereafter is just that -the hereafter- it's just vague enough to create perfect opportunity for those seeking to keep trying to "own" the rule book of what happens then.

 

Uh-huh. And why would "Source" allow this tobe the case, and how is it thatyou have cut through the vagueness to understand it all, and discover this fabulous truth? How do you know you are correct, and what makes you think that you are the person to disseminate it to others? I mean, all that you are writing you probably read in a Deepak Chopra book or something, right? Or did you make all of this up all by yourself?

 

And that's really when the trouble begins and people are tested for knowledge they simply have not attained by paying attention to their journey and mission -and it gives others the opportunity to distract them from their right to their understanding and development of their very own Spirit.

 

Which you could be doing right now. What if lonelybird is right? You are the one distracting people in that case. What if Islam is right? Then you both are. Given that your belief system, however weird and convoluted, has the same chance of being right than all the others, how can one determine if he is being distracted or not? Wouldn't the distraction SEEM like the right thing--at least until it was to late? And if you can be distracted from Source, there must be some force that WANTS people to be distracted. Musn't that be so? What is this "anti-Source" and how can you determine which is which?

 

The fear can be paralyzing to someone who's not well aquainted with their Spirit side and this can land them down a meandering path of cults, and religions, and anything they can cling to that makes them feel secure and "set" for whatever lies in the hereafter.

 

Ah, the judgment. Everyone except for you is meandering, involved in cults (which you use prejoratively and it isn't necessarily), religions and things that they "cling" to but just aren't right. Congratulations on being so special as to see the truth that all these other poor souls miss.

 

I have been ciritcized in the past for not respecting other's beliefs about magic and the supernatural (which is what this all is), and that may be so. But is reading this I find no reason whatsoever to respect it, frankly. Beyond that, every single believer I have ever come across doesn't really respect the magical beliefs of others, either, yet none of them have any evidence. Can't you see that you are exactly the same as lonelybird, Jerry Falwell, and 90% of the Muslim Immams out there?

 

I may be fiercely rational, but I at least have evidence that being rational has positive effects, and evidence that a rational and scientific approach to the world works. I think a rational approach to spirituality worsk aas well, but nobody gives it a chance because they have found their brand of magic and they will rarely abandon it. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

 

And it may seem easier for some to just trash the idea of a hereafter, altogether, and live their life with one-dimensional perceptions and belief, as an athiest, or agnostic.

 

It is this line that garnered my response. In point of fact, I could care less what magic you believe in until you push it on other people--which you all do, without fail--in politics or morality. But to say that I live a one-dimnesional life is beyond insulting, and totally wrong. Having a rich spiritual life has nothing to do with believing in magic or the "hereafter", but you wouldn't know that because you haven't bothered to really think about it. Right here you label me the way you deride the more conventionally magical do.

 

Such a hypocrite! I dismiss all magical claims equally. I am not hypocritical about it whatsoever. You, and every other believer, hold your magical beliefs up as true and insult those of others, and you hope to avoid criticism because you see your beliefs as more "loving" or "all-incompassing" or whatever.

 

Maybe we have a soul, maybe we don't (chances are we probably don't). Since we cannot possibly hope to determine that, why don't we think about what it is to be spiritual and moral in the absence of one?

 

You can claim that there is no hell all you want, but once you acknowledge that there is an afterlife you have to acknowledge that there COULD BE one. And that means that you could go there if you screw up in your spirit-journey. That little fact hangs over your head, and as much as you try to deny it there will always be that little voice of doubt in your head, "you could be wrong".

 

It seems simpler -but it probably isn't- because your Spirit side can only be crammed back, and hidden for just so long.

 

See above, but I will again mention that being spiritual need have nothing to do with magical belief. That is so basic, I hope that anyone who reads your posts and finds any wisdom in them at all (I don't) would consider that.

 

Even if you subdue it with force and with anger, apply science and rely on fact,

 

"Rely on fact"????? You have got to be kidding. Everyone is spiritual to one degreee or another, its just that atheists don;t make claims for which there is no evidence. Yet again, you are the same as every other beleiver; namely, when facts show your beliefs to be erroneous deny the fact, or claim that the "facts" aren't valuable. With magical spirituality comes anti-intellectualism. How awesome.

 

The fact is that intellectuals and people who rely on "facts" make up 10% of the world's population, roughly, and they provide 98% of the things that civilization requires to survive. ANd they are derided for it.

 

In Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand describes this, and writes of a time when that 10% says "screw it", moves to an island, and leaves you people to your own devices. Love the idea, and I'd love to stand back and watch all those who really understand through magic and Spirit start starving and destroying themselves. Why hasn't it happened? Because contrary to what you magical beleivers think, the 10% wants to help other peole, and make life better for everyone regardless of what magic they believe in. Their rational view has led them to the conclusion that to abandon the magical would be immoral, and as such unthinkable. You're welcome.

 

and/or just ignore it -since it's the only part of you that has the ability to remain in existence and cannot die, it will always find ways to demonstrate its presence.

 

Please explain how spirit won't die when the Universe rips apaprt. I am sure that the cosmology and physics departments the world over are breathless in anticiaption of your sure to be concise and rational description.

 

Unexplainably erupting demonstrations, by the way, to which you can always keep secret, or attribute to anything you like -but that are there, nonetheless.

 

I wonder what thought process you go through when you have to find your keys. Sheesh. So much energy to say nothing.

 

But it will be grace -ironically- which will be allowing you to discredit it, dissect it, explain it, ignore it, or whatever you choose to do to handle it.

 

What? What is "it" first of all, and second of all it seems you have avery flexible definition of what "grace" is, and use it differently to serve your purpose. But I suppose I am using grace to write this right now...ah, how zen.

 

-Rio

 

P.S. Sorry for the double post -I want to add that last line and the computer did a back-flip on me.

 

I would caution you not to comment on things you know nothing about, namely the spirituality of atheists--or any other people you don't understand. You don't know the first thing about atheism or real spirituality, magical or not, no matter how you feel about it. Reading some New Age drivel and laying back in your room imagining what you would like things to be like is not a relevant inquiry into spirituality. What is sadis there are volumes on the subject, and very interesting discussions about this no further than your keyboard, and yet you have chosen not to avail yourself of any of it.

[riobikini]

Lengthy post, M -but without having to read all of it (yet) I think I can demonstrate where you are personally wavering (certainly not because of anything said in LS, I am sure) but, nonetheless, that you actually *do* hold some inkling of an idea that humans do, indeed, have different dimensions or aspects to their being, other than the physical one.

 

You chortle, with obvious delight/disgust, having a rather bawdy humor with the following post, greatly relishing the "find" of something to ridicule :

 

In human form? What other form would we be in, and still be able to communicate with other humans, or understand reality as a human? And what are these "realms" exactly?

 

Then, just a few lines later, you make mention of your belief that the human spirit does exist, and can be "shaped" and that it remains in question and is undetermined for you, as to whether it remains alive and well after our body dies -all mention of which, gives some clue that you really aren't certain that you are truly ridiculing a belief you are sure isn't onto something that just may be leaning in a right-sounding direction, by making the below statement:

 

It is true that the human spirit is shaped by experience. Whether that lasts after you die is an open question--and probably false.

 

It also -to me- shows that you may be considering a nibble of acceptance of a notion here and there, or have considered it in the past.

 

But no one -at least, not me should ever attempt to make anyone swallow any belief they aren't ready for or simply want nothing to do with.

 

Still -at least- if you're making fun of other people's beliefs, you're still looking at them and trying them out for size in your mind, whether you realize it or not, before you rip them to shreds.

 

So, your hate of religion and God-stuff and the very way you are going about detracting from it, and your idea of "debunking" it is actually making you rich in knowledge of it (those "realms" and that "Spirit-side" you outwardly reject so frquently.)

 

Keep reading and ridiculing, M.

 

Someday, some of it isn't going to leave you.

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio

[Moose]

rio......just thought you'd know that you're wasting your time......

 

Whatever Moai says, "is"........no matter what proof you give.....

[Moai]

Lengthy post, M -but without having to read all of it (yet) I think I can demonstrate where you are personally wavering (certainly not because of anything said in LS, I am sure) but, nonetheless, that you actually *do* hold some inkling of an idea that humans do, indeed, have different dimensions or aspects to their being, other than the physical one.

 

I'm not wavering about anything. Yet again, you see what you want and ignore what is right in front of you. There are many facets to be human, and spirituality is one of them. You choose to equate "spirit" with "soul" and use them interdchangably, and they are not interchangable.

 

Just because there is a spiritual sense to our perceptions of reality doesn't mean that "spirit" lives on when you die.

 

I am not aware of any atheist anywhere who denies the existence of the human spirit. It is self-evident. What they universally don't accept are sky-gods or "sources" for which there is no evidence.

 

You chortle, with obvious delight/disgust, having a rather bawdy humor with the following post, greatly relishing the "find" of something to ridicule :

 

I don't think that you know what "bawdy" means, for one thing. WHere was I obscene, lewd, or using sexual innuendo in my post? I wonder how many other words you use that you have no idea what they mean.

 

And I did not write that with delight--but I did with disgust. It disgusts me how you can be so flippant about the experiences of others and make value judgments about their beliefs so casually--but then, you believe in magic so I am not in the least surprised.

 

Then, just a few lines later, you make mention of your belief that the human spirit does exist, and can be "shaped" and that it remains in question and is undetermined for you, as to whether it remains alive and well after our body dies -all mention of which, gives some clue that you really aren't certain that you are truly ridiculing a belief you are sure isn't onto something that just may be leaning in a right-sounding direction, by making the below statement:

 

What? If I decipher this paragraph correctly, you have (incorrectly) surmised that I denied the human spirit. I did not and have not. You take your rather loose definition of it and bandy that about and when it touches slightly on mine (the vastly more common definition) you claima rhetorical point, as if therefore I accept any of what you assert. I don't.

 

Since I have never died I cannot comment on what happens after death. If I am to be honest with myself and the nature of things I must conclude that. However, nobody else does, either. You don't, lonelybird doesn't, Abba Ad-Sail doesn't. But you all claim to know,and spell it out. In so doing, your claims can be examined. When they are not internally consistent (whcih they aren't) or fly in the face of reality they can be dismissed as fantasies. So far, every description of spirituality that involves magic, super-beings and "energy" are demonstrably false or at best wishful thinking. Given the track record, I reject them all and conclude that no such thing exists. As in everything, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. ANd I am always open to evidence to that end. There hasn't been any in the history of mankind so forgive mefor not holding my breath.

 

It also -to me- shows that you may be considering a nibble of acceptance of a notion here and there, or have considered it in the past.

 

I was raised Baptist and was a born-again believer once. I went beyond considering it, I KNEW it to be fact. And then I began to read more about it and learn about the world. You should try it.

 

But no one -at least, not me should ever attempt to make anyone swallow any belief they aren't ready for or simply want nothing to do with.

 

There it is again. "Not ready for"???? Who are you to say who is where in a spiritual sense. It is entirely possible (and given your limited grasp of the subject) that I ammore enlightened than you claim to be. But it is a nice out to say that anyone who rejects your position isn't ready for it.

 

And while it is nice of you to say that you would "make" anyone swallow what you are shovelling, I don't see how you could. But your smug assurance is bad enough.

 

Still -at least- if you're making fun of other people's beliefs, you're still looking at them and trying them out for size in your mind, whether you realize it or not, before you rip them to shreds.

 

I don't know about trying themon for size, but I do think about them before I reject them. That's is obvious and unavoidable. Does that mean I was almost a Communist when I considered it and rejected it? Or a Nazi? Or a member of Heaven's Gate? Not hardly. You see, one can examine a belief and follow it to its logical conclusion without once thinking that said belief is true. How can you not know that?

 

So, your hate of religion and God-stuff and the very way you are going about detracting from it, and your idea of "debunking" it is actually making you rich in knowledge of it (those "realms" and that "Spirit-side" you outwardly reject so frquently.)

 

Way to not explain anything, yet again. You do have a particular talent for that. And I hate religion because it is a destrcutive force in the world. I hate starvation and disease, too. And I "hate" magical thinking because of what it leads to--namely, denisal of reality and divisiveness.

 

Think about this: your description of spirit and "realms" and "sides" implies duality (at least), as if spirituality and physical being are separate, and that is not necessarily so. There are may belief systems that assert that body and spirit are the same thing, and you cannot separate the two, as you cannot have one without the other. Notice again how as assumption that is taken for granted in the West as being "true" isn't, and is accepted without a second thought.

 

Keep reading and ridiculing, M.

 

Someday, some of it isn't going to leave you.

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio

 

K. If that makes you feel better. Why is it all believers think that when they repeat what they have read or heard they are dispensing some amazing insight nobody has ever heard before or couldn't come up with on their own? That is so arrogant.

[EnigmaXOXO]

And I did not write that with delight--but I did with disgust. It disgusts me how you can be so flippant about the experiences of others and make value judgments about their beliefs so casually--but then, you believe in magic so I am not in the least surprised.

 

But aren’t you, as an atheist, doing the same ... even without believing in all the “magic?”

[Moai]

rio......just thought you'd know that you're wasting your time......

 

Whatever Moai says, "is"........no matter what proof you give.....

 

How would you know? You've never given any. Nor has anyone else.

[Moai]

But aren’t you, as an atheist, doing the same ... even without believing in all the “magic?”

 

No. The difference is that I leave room for doubt, no matter how small, and in no way do I suggest that what gives my life meaning would be the same for someone else. Not only that, I admit that I can only describe the reality for which there is evidence, I do not imagine that I can know the mind of a super-being or "source", let alone tell other people about it with any sort of assurance.

 

Consider how vast the Universe is. For example, the news of Jesus' crucifixion has not left our galaxy yet. A great many of the stars you see in the sky at night have died long ago. 99% of all life that has existed on the planet is extinct. Not individuals that have died, but actual species that are no more. The Sun will go dark in about 4 billion years. The Universe itself will cease to exist in 50 billion years. So much for anything living "forever."

 

Is it not the height of arrogance to think that the entire Universe exists, that stars, planets, and entire solar systems are born and destroyed just for our little species on this tiny planet in a Universe so vast we cannot really comprehend it? Is it not wishful thinking to believe that anything in the Universe cares about you, a speck on a planet in an outer arm of a spiral galaxy amongst billions of galaxies?

 

Isn't it arrogant to suggest that out of all of this vast Universe, you, going to work each day at the widget factory (or whatever) are a special little project that is just so special that something as small as what you do while naked or whether you believe in a particular way or "learn" something really matters?

 

Many would say that it's depressing to think of it this way, or that it can't be because it is so bleak there MUST be a reason, etc. They yell up and down that they KNOW their beliefs are right and that they can FEEL it, or whatever. The reality of things may be bleak, but the Universe doesn't owe you a warm fuxxy feeling about existing.

 

Moreover, this blind, cold indifference gives you--us--the opportunity to determine what is important for ourselves, which I find to be the most hopeful idea there is.

[riobikini]

Oh, Moai (Smile) it amazes me how you can both love and hate religion so much and still wind up in every thread concerning it (where others are politely sharing their beliefs when asked) and turn the whole thread around to become a religion-bashing string of posts focusing on *your* disbelief.

 

No one asked for that -not the original poster, not the ones that shared, and certainly not me.

 

But we always wind up confronted by you, nonetheless.

 

And you seem not to be able to resist.

 

I think it may bitterness driving your hatred -not the education you claim to have that you say enlightened you and made you a tattered, worn, and disillusioned veteran of old ideas of a religion that failed you and left you empty-handed when the veil that you say everyone is blinded by, came off.

 

You seem to be a one-man show trying hard to please -whom?

 

And to make a point of what?

 

Does anyone really care if the person handing you a drink of water when you're thirsty worships a different God, or doesn't even have a particular faith or belief?

 

I don't.

 

Still -I took another look at this statement made by you below and the part of it I quote, just makes me smile.

 

re:

 

Moai: " Just because there is a spiritual sense to our perceptions of reality..."

 

Moai -what spirit are you talking about?

 

In your world it does not exist.

 

And why do you think it is important enough to keep referring to?

 

And if the body does, indeed, have a spirit (as you seem to agree, in whatever sense you are speaking) -then why can we not see the spirit you speak of?

 

(Smile)

 

These sound like some of *your* kinds of typical questions.

 

But I'm curious as to why you -of all people- would ever consider the human spirit -in any sense if it is something that cannot be seen or explained.

 

re:

 

Moai: "They yell up and down that they KNOW their beliefs are right and that they can FEEL it..."

 

I cannot *see* love, either -but I *know* that it exists- I can feel it.

 

re:

 

Moai: "The difference is that I leave room for doubt.."

 

The way I see it, Moai, is that you have more room for doubt, than Carter has liver pills.

 

And I beg your pardon for all my grammatical errors, my poor punctuation, as well as my poor choice (in your opinion, of course) of words, which you made it a point to give special mention.

 

I have long tolerated yours.

 

-Rio

 

P.S. And thank you, Moose, for the warning. I know you are right, I have encountered M before and found your warning to be very true. Still -despite his nastiness- I think nothing is being "wasted" -at least he's reading through the posts. (Smile) He doesn't seem to realize, though, that no one is trying to dissuade him from his views and takes it all quite personally -whether his own "cross" he feels he was meant to bear or some form of the personal "mission" I was talking about in an earlier post. (Smile) If he's right -and there's no "hereafter"(which I simply cannot accept, for myself)- then I think he'd have more time to devote to the "here and now", if he just wasn't so consumed with telling others there's nothing beyond physical death. Personally, he hasn't said one thing to convince me he's right. Take care, Moose. I'm still a fan of your posts.

[Moai]

Oh, Moai (Smile) it amazes me how you can both love and hate religion so much and still wind up in every thread concerning it (where others are politely sharing their beliefs when asked) and turn the whole thread around to become a religion-bashing string of posts focusing on *your* disbelief.

 

I don't wind up on every thread, nor is my tone like this on all of them. How would you recommend dealing with such hypocrisy, and such insulting ignorant behavior?

 

The fact that you don't even address your insulting attitude and attempt to turn it around on me is telling.

 

Also, all I have done in the past is disagree. That's it. All I have done is point out that what you and believers like you claim is evidence isn't. And that isn't just my opinion, or something that I wish was true. That is true for every rational person on the planet, and many thoughtful believers. Would you like me to quote them?

 

No one asked for that -not the original poster, not the ones that shared, and certainly not me.

 

Oh, ok. When you insult someone (actually, an entire group of people) and they call you on it, THEY are being rude? Super.

 

But we always wind up confronted by you, nonetheless.

 

And you seem not to be able to resist.

 

No, you don't "always". In point of fact, I don't post to the vast majority of these threads. Moreover, this is a public forum of which I am a member, and I have the privilege of posting here just as much as you do.

 

Here is a comment I made on another thread, regarding joining a church:

 

"Take a biology class. Watch some programs on the Universe. Read some Sartre. Read anything by Sam Harris.

 

If you feel you must join a church, the Unitarians are pretty cool. You might like Methodism as well.

 

I would avoid the more charismatic Christian faiths, like Pentacostal churches, given your background."

 

That sure was confrontational, huh?

 

I think it may bitterness driving your hatred -not the education you claim to have that you say enlightened you and made you a tattered, worn, and disillusioned veteran of old ideas of a religion that failed you and left you empty-handed when the veil that you say everyone is blinded by, came off.

 

Typical. Where did you read that? I am not bitter at all. Quite the reverse, actually. If I am adamant about Communism being a tool for evil (which it is) does that make me bitter? Has the veil come off? All dogmatic systems are the same, and they are all dangerous, and are all regressive.

 

The belief system that you hold onto desperately and think fills you with so much lov for "spirit" and "source" makes you judgmental and hate-filled, and you are so blind you can't even see it.

 

You seem to be a one-man show trying hard to please -whom?

 

And to make a point of what?

 

One-man show? I amnot sure what that means, but I am not the only one who thinks as I do in the world, let alone on these boards. I have been asked to comment on threads I lurk on by others may times--once very recently, in fact. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins has sold over a million copies in hardcover--an astoounding feat for a non-fiction book. Clearly I am not a "one-man show."

 

Not that it matters. The truth isn't a popularity contest. I notice you have taken a great deal of time criticizing me and ignoring the substance of my post. Why am I not surprised.

 

Does anyone really care if the person handing you a drink of water when you're thirsty worships a different God, or doesn't even have a particular faith or belief?

 

I don't.

 

Good for you. There are billions of people out there who do.

 

Still -I took another look at this statement made by you below and the part of it I quote, just makes me smile.

 

re:

 

Moai -what spirit are you talking about?

 

In your world it does not exist.

 

Again, false, and I have explained it. Did you choose toignore what Iwrote, or did you not understand it?

 

And why do you think it is important enough to keep referring to?

 

Because it is germane tothe subject matter. Why do I have to explain this?

 

And if the body does, indeed, have a spirit (as you seem to agree, in whatever sense you are speaking) -then why can we not see the spirit you speak of?

 

I do see it. I just don't attribute it tomagic or make wild speculation about what happens when we die, or what the purpose of human existence is when in point of fact I have no idea. Nobody else does either, but that doesn't stop people from endlessly asserting they know. Tragically, in many instances they kill each other over it.

 

(Smile)

 

These sound like some of *your* kinds of typical questions.

 

You don't understand myquestions very well, then. In point of fact mine are largely rhetorical, as I know (and most honest belivers do, too) that there isno answer for them.

 

But I'm curious as to why you -of all people- would ever consider the human spirit -in any sense if it is something that cannot be seen or explained.

 

It can be seen and it is being explained. There is very interesting work going on about it right now. Read some Daniel Dennett. Or anything in the field of neuroscience.

 

I cannot *see* love, either -but I *know* that it exists- I can feel it.

 

You can see it, too. Love is certainly not rational, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that therefore magic exists.

 

The way I see it, Moai, is that you have more room for doubt, than Carter has liver pills.

 

You can see things any way you want, that doesn't make it so.

 

And I beg your pardon for all my grammatical errors, my poor punctuation, as well as my poor choice (in your opinion, of course) of words, which you made it a point to give special mention.

 

Well, "bawdy" has a specific definition thatis beyond my opinion. Take it up with the OED or Webster's. Words mean things, and in order to get one's point across it is a good idea to understand what you are saying. If you don't, how can you be sure you are saying what you mean? You can't.

 

I have long tolerated yours.

 

-Rio

 

Oh? An example would be nice. And your lack of apology is noted, as is your lack of even an explanation of your ignorant, insulting statements. It is so weird how hypocrisy can be so blinding. Is hypocrisy how you get to "spurce" maybe?

 

P.S. And thank you, Moose, for the warning. I know you are right, I have encountered M before and found your warning to be very true. Still -despite his nastiness- I think nothing is being "wasted" -at least he's reading through the posts. (Smile) He doesn't seem to realize, though, that no one is trying to dissuade him from his views and takes it all quite personally -whether his own "cross" he feels he was meant to bear or some form of the personal "mission" I was talking about in an earlier post. (Smile) If he's right -and there's no "hereafter"(which I simply cannot accept, for myself)- then I think he'd have more time to devote to the "here and now", if he just wasn't so consumed with telling others there's nothing beyond physical death. Personally, he hasn't said one thing to convince me he's right. Take care, Moose. I'm still a fan of your posts.

 

Great. As with most believers, there is no amount of evidence that can dissuade them, even they they have none in the affirmative. Great. I can tell you lots of things that would have me believing in life after death in a second. Can you name one thing that would have you abandon it?

 

Your "high-horse" mentality is noted.

 

Do you not have a personal mission? You have said so yourself. While you may be a fan of Moose, he thinks you are going to hell. No Jesus=Hell forever. AM Itheonly one who finds that a little weird?

 

What "cross" am I bearing? Watch the news. Read a newspaper. If you think that all is peace and light and all believers of every stripe are coexisting in peace and harmony you are sadly mistaken.

 

And you are trying to dissuade me from my views--and everyone else, or you wouldn't post here. Lonelybird is trying to win believers here as well.

 

The title of this thread is "How do you know your beliefs are right" not "How do you know your beliefs are right--for Christians and New Agers only." As is typical, you just assert things and expect the world to respect these ideas, accept them as true, and listen intently as you prattle on nonsensically. Feel free, but when you misrepresent the position of those who reject magic as an explanation for things and insult them besides, you will probably be called on it.

 

And who are you to dictate how I spend a few spare moments? Your judgmental behavior truly knows no bounds. I am sure you think that all atheists are hedonists with no restraint and no thought for the future. Sad, really.

[riobikini]

Moai -I am breathless.

 

For the first time since I have been reading your posts, this one (looking at it in its entirety) seemed to come off with the slightest tone of something that (for now) I am calling a bit more of the individual *real* self of Moai, in addition to the faintest hint of a softer and more personal explaination of why you hold your beliefs, how they apply to you, and how you chose them.

 

You defended more of your personal beliefs *for yourself* in this one -much more rather than the usual stance of acting as defender for the entire world, or even others with whom you normally group yourself.

 

It was slight -but present.

 

And it was surprising.

 

And though -ever so slight- headed more in the right direction of what stating one's personal beliefs/disbeliefs is suposed to be -without so much targeting and tearing to shreds the beliefs systems or attacking the reasons for disbelief in others.

 

At least, it's a start.

 

It's more of what folks would like to hear -the basis for why you believe your thinking- instead of an all out focus on how their thinking is just plain wrong.

 

I think -if you built up this area of slight difference in your approach- more people would read *all of your posts* and there would be less argument, less emotional conflict, and certainly, less general frustration with you, and more of a "trading of ideas" when you post.

 

And someone might just leave the forum with an idea or two they can actually use.

 

-Rio

[EnigmaXOXO]

All dogmatic systems are the same, and they are all dangerous, and are all regressive.

 

I think history has already taught us that extremism, in either direction, is a dangerous thing.

 

The belief system that you hold onto desperately and think fills you with so much lov for "spirit" and "source" makes you judgmental and hate-filled, and you are so blind you can't even see it.

 

Personally, I cling to no particular belief system, myself. I see both the beauty and the ugliness in all things human. While I wouldn

[EnigmaXOXO]

All dogmatic systems are the same, and they are all dangerous, and are all regressive.

 

I think history has already taught us that extremism, in either direction, is a dangerous thing.

 

The belief system that you hold onto desperately and think fills you with so much lov for "spirit" and "source" makes you judgmental and hate-filled, and you are so blind you can't even see it.

 

Personally, I cling to no particular belief system, myself. I see both the beauty and the ugliness in all things human. While I wouldn’t describe myself as “indifferent” I can say that I walk somewhere down the middle of that road. Happy to remain perched on my fence since the angry zealots shaking their fists and shouting from both sides terrify me. And that’s how I know that my personal belief system is the most comfortable and “right” for me.

 

You also asked earlier how one goes about fighting this kind of hypocrisy. I can’t give you the answer to that, because when it comes to IQs, I’m a hairless baboon in comparison. But what this simple mind has deduced from observation is ... you can’t. Not without becoming the very thing you fear and hate the most. I think that’s the thing we are often “too blind to see”.

 

Anger begets anger. Prejudice begets prejudice. Hatred begets hated. Intolerance begets intolerance. In the end, none of us ever conquer those imaginary evils. And when we try, we only succeed in becoming the very thing we’re fighting against. I think the best we Homosapians can hope for is to simply survive each other.

 

So if you ever find that island you were talking about... let me know.

[Moai]

I think history has already taught us that extremism, in either direction, is a dangerous thing.

 

I agree, and I also think it is time we snapped out of it.

 

Personally, I cling to no particular belief system, myself. I see both the beauty and the ugliness in all things human. While I wouldn’t describe myself as “indifferent” I can say that I walk somewhere down the middle of that road. Happy to remain perched on my fence since the angry zealots shaking their fists and shouting from both sides terrify me. And that’s how I know that my personal belief system is the most comfortable and “right” for me.

 

No argument here. I can assume that I qualify as one of the angry zealots, I am so because it seems to me that for too long the certainy of believers has gotten a free pass, and has led us down a path to destruction. Given modern technology and instant communication dangerous ideas such as these can, and probably will end in massive destruction and suffering unless we put on the brakes and deal with our problems rationally. It won't cure all our problems or even prevent all suffering, but it is a start.

 

You also asked earlier how one goes about fighting this kind of hypocrisy. I can’t give you the answer to that, because when it comes to IQs, I’m a hairless baboon in comparison. But what this simple mind has deduced from observation is ... you can’t. Not without becoming the very thing you fear and hate the most. I think that’s the thing we are often “too blind to see”.

 

Interesting point. I disagree that in acknowledging hypocrisy one is in danger of becoming a hypocrite himself (if I read that right--I am a hairless bonobo myself!), though.

 

An example I like is he fact that every believer everywhere is just as much an atheist as I am when it comes to the beliefs of others. I just go one further than they do. I have yet to read a post on these forums from a Muslim, for example. For all the talk of "sharing" ideas, nobody shares those, or even hints that they might have merit--even though 1.6 billion people currently think they do. It is hypocritical to reject the beliefs of others uisng rational thinking (which they all do) and yet cry foul when the same process is applied to their cherished beliefs.

 

I have been told before that agnosticism is the only honest position, as nobody can know any of this for certain, and in a way that is true. I don't know anyone who is agnostic about Zeus, though, so that only goes so far.

 

Anger begets anger. Prejudice begets prejudice. Hatred begets hated. Intolerance begets intolerance. In the end, none of us ever conquer those imaginary evils. And when we try, we only succeed in becoming the very thing we’re fighting against. I think the best we Homosapians can hope for is to simply survive each other.

 

Again, interesting point. I would disagree that prejudice is imaginary, or intolerance is, either. And while I vehemently disagree with the conclusions and morality that results from religious dogmatism--and is protected by religious moderation--I am certainily tolerant of it; that is, until it invades my house and harms others. And sadly, this it does without fail.

 

Notice there aren't endless threads about astrology or alchemy on these boards. If someone came on here and posted elaborately about such things would anyone take them seriously? I don't think so, and that is because we have finally reached a point where ardent belief in such things has become untenable. I think we are on the precipice of that as far as religion goes as well.

 

I can use the very idea of religious tolerance to make my point. Religious tolerance is a secular idea. There is not one religion anywhere that advocates this. Not a single, solitary one. The reason why tolerance has been somewhat successful in the West is because there are secular laws protecting belief. Sadly, many believers think that extends to "believers" only and not to those who reject magical/supernatural notions. Moreover, they feel that they can extend their idea of "sin" into the homes of others, a concept that is not arrived at through discourse or a thoughtful process about what it means to be moral in the first place.

 

Your last line about surviving each other is well taken. As I mentioned above, given the technology available to the dogmatically irrational we may not.

 

So if you ever find that island you were talking about... let me know.

 

Can do! Actually, that island, if it exists at all, seems to be Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. They have the highest number of atheists, have the highest rate of philanthropy, the lowest crimes rates and STD transmission (as well as teen pregnancy) and are the least violent societies in the developed world.

[Moai]

Moai -I am breathless.

 

For the first time since I have been reading your posts, this one (looking at it in its entirety) seemed to come off with the slightest tone of something that (for now) I am calling a bit more of the individual *real* self of Moai, in addition to the faintest hint of a softer and more personal explaination of why you hold your beliefs, how they apply to you, and how you chose them.

 

I amnot sure what you are talking about, as you didn't quote me, but all you need do is ask. I am just sick of being insulted.

 

COnsider your last littel exchange with Moose about me. Do you not see that as rude at all? I comment to you and him directly, I don't say to another member, "Oh, here goes Moose again. Don't bother, he'll just freak out about Jesus blah blah blah" do I? And the fact that you resonded as you did says a lot about you as well. I could have easily written "Nobody listen to Riobikini, she's just another New Ager who took the Celestine Prophecy too seriously" but I didn't. I wouldn't have commented at all if not for YOUR insult and misrepresentation I noticed when scanning the posts on this thread.

 

If you wanted a calmer discussion you shouldn't have been, or continue to be even now so insulting and self-righteuous.

 

You defended more of your personal beliefs *for yourself* in this one -much more rather than the usual stance of acting as defender for the entire world, or even others with whom you normally group yourself.

 

I don't even know what defender of the entire world means.

 

It was slight -but present.

 

And it was surprising.

 

So slight I don't even know what y9ou are talking about.

 

And though -ever so slight- headed more in the right direction of what stating one's personal beliefs/disbeliefs is suposed to be -without so much targeting and tearing to shreds the beliefs systems or attacking the reasons for disbelief in others.

 

And there it is again. Who are you to say what the right direction is? And why shouldn't I attack the reasons (actually, the lack of them) in others? Because these reasons are "special" in some way, or what? When lonelybird says something like, Believe or go to Hell, the Holy Spirit tells me this is true!" why is it wrong for me to ask what the Holy Spirit is, how she knows it is the Holy Spirit and not something else, and why the Holy Spirit gives so many different answers to people?

 

They never answer this because they can't. I know it, they know it, but they will never, ever admit it.

 

At least, it's a start.

 

It's more of what folks would like to hear -the basis for why you believe your thinking- instead of an all out focus on how their thinking is just plain wrong.

 

Way to make yourself a spokesperson for everyone. Didn't you suggest that I am a "defender of the whole world" above? Isn't that what you are doing? You may not like my style, but others do. You are entitled to your opinion certainly, but that doesn't mean it is shared by everyone. I am sure you think it is, though.

I think -if you built up this area of slight difference in your approach- more people would read *all of your posts* and there would be less argument, less emotional conflict, and certainly, less general frustration with you, and more of a "trading of ideas" when you post.

 

Frustration with me is actually frustration that stems from being in an untenable position.

 

And someone might just leave the forum with an idea or two they can actually use.

 

-Rio

 

Golly, thanks.

[Moose]

Frustration with me is actually frustration that stems from being in an untenable position.

AHHH......but it's not.....and that's the whole problem Moai.

 

Anytime we present our thoughts, ideas, and opinions, you automatically dismiss them and claim your, "truth" not as a thought or expression, but as the way it is and then you put us on the, "stupid bus" for believing otherwise.

 

Fact of the matter is.....even if I were to meet you IRL, and give you the God honest, "miracle", you seek, you would literally spend the rest of your life trying to disprove it.

[disgracian]

Moose, it's very poor form to start projecting your fantasies of how you think Maoi or anyone else would react in a given situation. In fact it signals your departure from mature, reasoned discouse. Your position depends on ad hominems, so it's pretty safe to assume that you have nothing of value left to contribute.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moai]

AHHH......but it's not.....and that's the whole problem Moai.

 

Yes, it is. The main doctrine of Christianity in almost every form has that at its center, for example. It's called "faith" which is described in this usage as:

 

"Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." That's from "The Free Dictionary" by the way.

 

And that is held up as valuable by some people--why I can't fathom, but it is. And yet, even that isn't good enough. Didn't you link to reasons.org on another thread? If faith is what is important, why does one need reasons?

 

And then we look at the reasons. They are always the same. "It makes me feel better" or "The Bible says so" or "I had a vision". Even that would be fine, as far as that goes. But, believers of every diffferent religion--even wacky New Age ones--use the EXACT SAME evidence. And then they pretend to know what their super-being wants, and they behave accordingly. For some, it is blowing themselves up on a bus, for others it is crucifying a homosexual, for others it is giving money to Benny Hinn. And sure, there are some who help the disadvantaged. There are more of the former, of course.

 

How can that be? If you are so certain that Jesus is Lord, etc., how can it be that the faithful in other cultures who seek just god or "truth" just as ardently arrive at Islam or Hinduism? How can it be that if there is one way, and only one way (which you have asserted yourself) there can be all of these different answers? I ask all the time and I never, ever gat an answer. Given how that question has been answered in the past in conversation IRL, I imagine it's because they are being duped by Satan. Wicca, Islam, Hiduism et. al. are all evil and Satanic and anti-Jesus. IS that not so? You have said as much before, but not in direct response to that question. "I don't care what religion people are as long as they acknowledge the Divinity of Jesus!" [i paraphrased]. Do you recall that?

 

In order to keep things polite, you don't tell people what you really think, which is vaguely dishonest. You and I both know that as it stands now myself, Rio, Topper, sb129, bluetuesday, and scores of others would burn in Hell if we were to expire now. True or not? You BELIEVE that, you KNOW that, and you have EVIDENCE for that. But you rarely admit to thinking that. Why?

 

That's rhetorical, as I know why. One reason is that people take offense to it, no? Another is that if the person is a believer of another stripe, they are using the same evidence you are, so how can you attack their evidence and not be attacking their own? So, you only do so amongst the like-minded and omit the facts of your faith that are offensive.

 

I have not read one of your posts where you call a New Ager on being Satanic and wrong, and yet you and I both know that is exactly what you think.

 

Anytime we present our thoughts, ideas, and opinions, you automatically dismiss them and claim your, "truth" not as a thought or expression, but as the way it is and then you put us on the, "stupid bus" for believing otherwise.

 

Keep claiming it, but I have never once even hinted that someone who believes in such things is stupid. You keep trying to make it so, but it isn't. I don't think that, and never said anything close to that. I think the beliefs are stupid, but that doesn't make the person who holds them to be stupid.

 

Not only that, you dismisss such things just as readily as I, you just don't asmit it. Why aren't you Mormon? I heard a Mormon talk about his friend who was wearing the Magic Underwear and was in a fire, and where the underwear coverd he was unharmed. A miracle! Clearly that is evidence that Mormonism is The Way, no? If not, what criterion do you use to dismisss that "evidence"?

 

In India, thousands lined up at a believer's house to witness their statue of Vishnu drink milk. A spoon of milk was held up to the statue and lo! the milk began to disappear! A miracle! Clearly Hinduism is true and correct. I saw that on videotape, by the way. Lines of faithful around the block to bask in the holiness of the Magic Vishnu Statue.

 

Since you enjoy projecting me calling people stupid so much, can I surmise that YOu, in fact, think that those people are stupid? Do you believe that is possible and miraculous? If not, why not? Again, what criterion do you use to dismiss the miracles of others that your miracles pass?

 

Are you aware that there is a man in India RIGHT NOW who performs magic, claims to be born of a virgin--and lots of other things? His name is Sathya Sai Baba. Google him. There are countless websites proclaiming evidence for his divinity, with scathing rebukes for unbelievers. On YouTube you can watch him perform his magic tricks-er, miracles (there are also videos debunking him). A birthday party was thrown for him recently and 1 million people showed up. He counts physics professors and doctors amongst his followers.

 

I am sure you don't believe that he is divine. How do you arrive at this conclusion? I find it funny that these same things are said to have been done by Jesus, and yet because accounts were written down 2,000 years ago it is somehow true, and I am a jerk for dismissing it. Super.

 

Fact of the matter is.....even if I were to meet you IRL, and give you the God honest, "miracle", you seek, you would literally spend the rest of your life trying to disprove it.

 

Careful. One might read that and take it to mean that you can perform miracles...I can list a couple things that would have me believe in god in a second:

 

The Rapture happening.

An amputee regrwoing a limb, or someone without eyes regrowing them(this might prove that a god exists but you'd still have to prove that god to be Jesus).

Anyone dead reanimating (see above).

Any corroborative evidence AT ALL that supports the accounts of the miracles in the Bible.

Any food that imparts knowledge to he who eats it.

 

I could go on and on. I'd abandon evolution as fact in a second in they found a fossil rabbit in the per-Cambrian.

 

What would have to occur, or what would you have to see or experience that would make you abandon your belief in God? I'll bet nothing, because there is mountains of it al around, and within the contradicitions in your own belief system and you still hold oh-so tenaciously to it.

[riobikini]

(Smile)

 

A flood of apologies for my exchange with Moose, Moai.

 

It was, indeed, rude, rude, rude.

 

And add my apology to all the ones you have made for the same or similar behavior (example: LonelyBird.)

 

(Oops! -where are they?)

 

Just as with many posts covering the subject of religion and belief/disbelief of all kinds -yet, again, another one veers off the more amicable path to land right smack in the mud and muck of comments flung to injure, rather than heal, explaination competitively devised to create the appearance of a minute and sad kind of victorious "genius", and a general atmosphere where few can even follow the dialog -or want to.

 

It, somehow, seems to defeat the whole purpose of trying to understand the views expressed that could offer something edifying to the reader.

 

As for my own part in this, I give sincere apology -and see no reason to continue in this thread, as its tone has developed into an argumentative and unattractive volley of comments.

 

I only hope the input in the next thread covering this subject is approached with much higher intentions and more comprehensible material, more focused, and less the stamping out of random "fires" of ten topics of belief shot down all at once with a mixture of vehement harshness of conceit and bitterness and confusing facts and data -and reaches upwards and far beyond what has been recently displayed (my own, included)- and that those who choose to read through it seeking to discover new insights, and ideas, and add to their knowledge can leave with clarifying information for their own personal good.

 

Well -til then.

 

-Rio

[Moai]

(Smile)

 

A flood of apologies for my exchange with Moose, Moai.

 

It was, indeed, rude, rude, rude.

 

And add my apology to all the ones you have made for the same or similar behavior (example: LonelyBird.)

 

Thank you for your apology.

 

(Oops! -where are they?)

Why do I owe lonelybird an apology? I have never called her names, I have never cast an aspersion on her to another member. In fact, there have been a couple of times when I have defended her.

 

I disagree with her reasoning for her faith, and while I respect her right to believe it, I don't respect the belief. I have yet to hear a good reason as to why I should.

 

Just as with many posts covering the subject of religion and belief/disbelief of all kinds -yet, again, another one veers off the more amicable path to land right smack in the mud and muck of comments flung to injure, rather than heal, explaination competitively devised to create the appearance of a minute and sad kind of victorious "genius", and a general atmosphere where few can even follow the dialog -or want to.

I have been receiving positive PM's about this thread since I posted. And if I wanted to, I could be more injurous than I have been, as I am sure you know. The sad thing is, the first to make injurous/prejudiced statements was you, and yet you have yet to even acknowledge that.

 

I would not have commented AT ALL had you not called me one-dimensional, closed off, in denial, and a host of other things. Then, you make comments about my being on the right track (however so slightly) or whatever.

 

It, somehow, seems to defeat the whole purpose of trying to understand the views expressed that could offer something edifying to the reader.

Maybe, maybe not. Anyone who thinks as I do is left out of the spiritual conversation, the terms of which you hope to dictate, by the very fact that you don't understand ours, and yet you make ignorant, demeaning blanket statements--statements that belie a lack of real spiritual understanding in the first place.

 

As for my own part in this, I give sincere apology -and see no reason to continue in this thread, as its tone has developed into an argumentative and unattractive volley of comments.

Again, thanks for the apology, but if you don't want to respond to me then don't.

 

Let me use an analogy:

 

You are in a restaurant, and you and a few friends are discussing your jobs. During the discussion, you mention that busboys don't work hard, and that they are purposely slacking off, but they will have to learn what real work is someday, it is inevitable. A busboy overhears you, and takes offense to that statement. He mentions that he does understand hard work, and that you and your friends don't have a monopoly on working hard. You then patronize the busboy, make comments about how busboys are mean, and make negative comments about said busboy to one of your friends while he is standing there, as if he is retarded or invisible.

 

For the last, I read your apology and I accept it without reservation. But I would add that your discussion was not as amicable or intruiging as you thought, and it is telling that you could be so insulting and not even realize it. Moreover, when the point is brought up, to continue the analogy, you blame the busboy.

 

I only hope the input in the next thread covering this subject is approached with much higher intentions and more comprehensible material, more focused, and less the stamping out of random "fires" of ten topics of belief shot down all at once with a mixture of vehement harshness of conceit and bitterness and confusing facts and data -and reaches upwards and far beyond what has been recently displayed (my own, included)- and that those who choose to read through it seeking to discover new insights, and ideas, and add to their knowledge can leave with clarifying information for their own personal good.

Confusing facts and data? Hmmm.....

 

As far as new insights go, where are they? How are they possible? You have declared that unless one believes in magic and life after death spirituality is impossible--or at least stunted. While patently false, all discussion ends there because you don't even CONSIDER what it means to be spiritual without magical imaginings.

 

Every other aspect of spirituality I have read on this thread and every other can be found in any book in the self-help section of the local library. I am sure it is possible that someone reading these "insights" may not have come across them before, but I doubt it.

 

Well -til then.

 

-Rio

Yes, til then. Here is a website I recommend in the meantime. It is a compendium of some of the great thinkers of our time explaining their work and experience. If you are truly interested in spiritual insight, it is an excellent resource: http://www.ted.com/talks