At a crossroad.........

[a4a]

lol.....I know I'm powerless over the alcohol Art.....I've never denied that! How do you gather I'm denying that? Just because I say I'm not a drunk? Just because I feel there's a difference, and you don't doesn't mean squat to me.

 

YES, I'm an alcoholic, I've said this MANY times.....that is not denial.

 

And no, I don't continue to drink, that would be a DRUNK.

 

But IF I want to enjoy a beer on a hot summer day, or when I'm working in the yard, or on the farm that is MY choice, and my wife and family needs to accept that without persecution......

 

 

Mrs. Moose never used to clean the house(s), do the dishes, or cook when we first were married. She's changed all of that. But when she slacks off, and let's things go, I don't rip into her to get off her butt and do something about it......let alone go to counceling or a 12 step program to get help.....and it doesn't lead me to believe she'll revert to the old ways permantly......

 

My H says the same thing as you do above in bold..... interesting about how his friend and his friends wife used to say he was a drunk and alcoholic, his X called him a functioning alcoholic. He got a DUI or DWI about 15 years ago....... he put down the beer but is sucking up the expensive stuff. He doesn't get drunk either..... not sloppy drunk. Thus the label functioning alcoholic.

 

My persecution of him did actually stop the massive consumption. But I do realize that he is just like you, and one small step away from a DUI or a sloppy drunk. Back to the way it was.

 

This discussion is not about your wife and her poor habits ..... this is about you being an alcoholic........and you still are one - and you are still drinking.

 

Why even bring her into it? Did her lack of dish washing cause the police to arrest her? Did she get behind the handle of a vacuum and could of killed another person with it?

 

 

What is more important..... the booze or your family?

[sb129]

Wow. Respect to you moose for being so open.

This is such a tough one.

Siblings are usually the first to point out each others shortcomings, and its hard to take it from someone thats so close to you.

 

I feel bad for you, your sister, your mom, your wife AND your kids, cos this issue has affected everyone over the years.

I know what it is like to have an alcoholic in the family, my mom was one and my grandfather was before her.

I think the only way of your family ever trusting and believing you are over your addiction is for you to give it up altogether.

 

This is interesting:

 

I very RARELY drink a 6 pack in a day's time. Why do I drink alone? If I told you, you would AUTOMATICALLY think I'm making excuses, so let's not go there. Just understand that I do have my reasons that only pyscologic drugs would rememdy and I'm definitely NOT going there!

 

Why not? I work with a woman who says exactly the same thing. Somehow she thinks that taking antidepressants and getting some counselling has a HUGE stigma attached to it, instead she would rather drink herself stupid (while trying unsuccessfully to hide it from her husband) in front of her young kids at least three nights a week. The family is unhappy, she and her husband don't communicate, and the kids are old enough to be affected by this. She LAUGHS about how much (at least 6-8 bottles of wine a week) she drinks.

I can't understand this- antidepressants and counselling won't kill her, but the amount of alcohol she drinks IS killing her and her relationships with her family.

 

Can you shed a little light on why this may be Moose?

 

The thing you said is so similar, and I am wondering why you feel that way.

[Touche]

lol.....I know I'm powerless over the alcohol Art.....I've never denied that! How do you gather I'm denying that? Just because I say I'm not a drunk? Just because I feel there's a difference, and you don't doesn't mean squat to me.

 

YES, I'm an alcoholic, I've said this MANY times.....that is not denial.

 

And no, I don't continue to drink, that would be a DRUNK.

 

But IF I want to enjoy a beer on a hot summer day, or when I'm working in the yard, or on the farm that is MY choice, and my wife and family needs to accept that without persecution......

 

Mrs. Moose never used to clean the house(s), do the dishes, or cook when we first were married. She's changed all of that. But when she slacks off, and let's things go, I don't rip into her to get off her butt and do something about it......let alone go to counceling or a 12 step program to get help.....and it doesn't lead me to believe she'll revert to the old ways permantly......

 

Are you really able to enjoy a beer? That just jumped out at me. And I'm not attacking you. I've admitted to having a problem with alcohol myself. As an alcoholic, I know I can't have *a* beer...it's all or nothing with me.

 

But anyway, I'm going against the tide here to say that your alcoholism isn't really even the problem here. Personally, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill regarding your wife's conversation with your mother. Obviously, you just don't agree on this. I'd let it go and focus on the REAL issues between you.

 

Sounds like you two need some alone time. You need to sit down togethr and really talk. Every marriage needs a "tune-up" now and again. You're at that point I think. Do it before things start to fester and get worse.

[Moose]

The year before I quit drinking I had been going to AA meetings because a GF I was living with wanted me to go..

AH! But YOU didn't want to go......correct? And I know that because:

I went to every single AA meeting drunk off my ass for that entire year..

Like I've told you Art, you wouldn't find a drop of alcohol at my house, or in my barn, shop, office, or anywhere else I spend my time.

 

I don't have the desire to drink everyday. It doesn't consume my hourly thoughts like it used to before I went through re-hab.

 

Unlike yourself the re-hab was MY choice with no intervention from anyone.

[quankanne]

I think people are losing sight of Moose's original post: He admits to having a problem with alcohol, and he admits that he's worked hard to change that … his problem at hand isn't the alcoholism itself, but the fact that his family refuses to acknowledge the changes made in his lifestyle.

 

he's always going to be an alcoholic, no matter how hard he tries to live "clean." However, to assume the worst makes it that much harder to stay clean, because that concept of you will always keep you in the muck. Kinda like the bucket of crabs that kept trying to escape the container: Even when one crab looked as if he was going to get over the edge, others would pull him back to the bottom in their attempts to claw their way out.

 

how can someone take pride or believe in their positive change when others keep shooting it down out of their own fears? It's understandable that Moose is upset for his wife backing his mother, but then again, until he asks Mrs. M what she meant by that, it's debatable.

[a4a]

choice?...... did I not pick up something that you no longer could drive?....

 

your wife had to drive you to work? Is this incorrect?

 

If it was true was it not alcohol related?

 

Sorry if I am off base.... I just really thought I read that in one of your threads.........

[Art_Critic]

AH! But YOU didn't want to go......correct?

 

Moose.. that was the year before I started believing that I was a an Alcohoic and before I admitted to myself that I was powerless over Alcohol..

 

Yes I was going for her.. but in the end I stayed because of me.. in the end I sobered up for myself..

After I sobered up I went to the meetings for myself.. and still do..

 

You are digging your heels in deeper.. which means the denial monster is in full effect right now..

There is now way of reaching you right now Moose until you drop the denial some and look inward..

[Art_Critic]

his problem at hand isn't the alcoholism itself, but the fact that his family refuses to acknowledge the changes made in his lifestyle.

 

Yes it is Quank.. The problem is because he has never addressed the issue.. His family knows that he has only covered up the problem..

 

His changes in his lifestyle aren't being seen by anybody but himself because the bar hasn't been met yet for them..

 

He must quit entirely and live a clean and sober lifestyle for the family to acknowledge his changes..

 

If they acknowledge his changes they will in effect be saying that what he is doing is good enough.. it isn't.

This is the thing all Alcoholics have to bear in mind.. We create a lot of damage in our families that takes total sobriety to fix

[sb129]

I think people are losing sight of Moose's original post: He admits to having a problem with alcohol, and he admits that he's worked hard to change that … his problem at hand isn't the alcoholism itself, but the fact that his family refuses to acknowledge the changes made in his lifestyle.

 

he's always going to be an alcoholic, no matter how hard he tries to live "clean." However, to assume the worst makes it that much harder to stay clean, because that concept of you will always keep you in the muck. Kinda like the bucket of crabs that kept trying to escape the container: Even when one crab looked as if he was going to get over the edge, others would pull him back to the bottom in their attempts to claw their way out.

 

how can someone take pride or believe in their positive change when others keep shooting it down out of their own fears? It's understandable that Moose is upset for his wife backing his mother, but then again, until he asks Mrs. M what she meant by that, it's debatable.

 

Good point Quankanne.

 

Sorry Moose. But I would still like it if you could give me your views on the question i asked you.

i can understand why you are so annoyed at Mrs Moose, and I think you guys definitely need to talk about your marriage- have you thought about MC?

 

With regards to your sister, I think you need to remember Moose, that good old saying "There but for the grace of God go I".

 

I know your sister drives you nuts, and you are probably extra hard on her because you HAVE been there, done that, and gotten out of it, therefore have less patience for people who are still too weak to do that.

But she is your sister, and you know how it is to have someone deny you help.

This may be the time she turns around. It might not be either, but you yourself know that it IS possible to turn it around, so she deserves some support.

[Moose]

Why even bring her into it? Did her lack of dish washing cause the police to arrest her? Did she get behind the handle of a vacuum and could of killed another person with it?

I brought her into it because I feel as if my past, (regardless of how far I've come), is always brought up and I don't have a, "leg to stand on", when I try and tell my mom she's enabling my sister, and Mrs. Moose agrees with her.

 

It's the exact OPPOSITE of how I treat Mrs. Moose when mother runs her in the ground for keeping a sloppy house, and letting the kids run all over her. I stand up for her in front of my mother regardless where she is in her life at that point and time. And believe you me, it's not a pretty sight when that happens!

 

By not standing up for me though, it makes me feel like a failure, so I feel like: "why in the world should I even stop drinking if this is how it's going to be?"

 

I'm sick and tired of proving myself over, and over, and over again. I won't drink anymore, (my choice, to rid everyone of their ammo), and in five more years, I'll still be in a sexless, no-intamicy relationship.

 

So what is the difference? What do I do differently? Walk up to her and mom and say, "I've been sober for five years now, when are you going to straighten your fallacies out?"?????

 

It doesn't work that way, and I KNOW THAT AS FACT!

[sb129]

I think you guys need more help than an online forum. We can only advise YOU Moose, and clearly Mrs Moose needs to address some issues too re: lack of intimacy.

 

You still didn't answer my question- have you considered marriage counselling?

 

I know some people who got some thru their church. it sounded pretty good.

[blind_otter]

 

With regards to your sister, I think you need to remember Moose, that good old saying "There but for the grace of God go I".

 

This is an excellent point. I think that you should help your sister, Moose.

[Touche]

What do you do differently? I can't answer that because I don't really know the dynamic here between the two of you and how you're relating to each other right now.

 

I'll say it again, start with a time where it's just the two of you alone and talk. Tell her what's on your mind without being accusatory. Have you done this lately? Be honest with her about what's going on in your mind, the way you have here.

[a4a]

Yes it is Quank.. The problem is because he has never addressed the issue.. His family knows that he has only covered up the problem..

 

His changes in his lifestyle aren't being seen by anybody but himself because the bar hasn't been met yet for them..

 

He must quit entirely and live a clean and sober lifestyle for the family to acknowledge his changes..

 

If they acknowledge his changes they will in effect be saying that what he is doing is good enough.. it isn't.

This is the thing all Alcoholics have to bear in mind.. We create a lot of damage in our families that takes total sobriety to fix

 

 

You are dead on Art.

 

And until that day comes they are just waiting for the pain again.

 

Every time I see my H with his can "cozy" cooler thingie.... I look and hope it is not a damn beer in it...... I quietly watch.... actually feeling of relief when it is just a soda in the can cozy.

[quankanne]

Walk up to her and mom and say, "I've been sober for five years now, when are you going to straighten your fallacies out?"?????

 

change the second half of the sentence to "deal with it," and you'll have made your point, IMO. However, family is often the last to allow you to change. Hell – I'm 41, steadily employed, married and have a mortgage, but I'll never be anything but the "baby sister" who needs my siblings to tell me how to live. It's pretty damned disgusting when it's not laughable.

 

don't let them drag you down, Moose, just keep aiming for the gold. Because if they can't appreciate it, you certainly will.

 

RE: your marriage ... have y'all looked into any kind of marriage enrichment programs? Marriage Builders, Marriage Encounter, etc.? That might be a good place to start – DH and I can personally vouch for Marriage Encounter. If my heathen of a husband feels like it's the best thing we've done for our marriage, and he went in dragging his feet, I think you might actually look forward to something like that

 

I feel for you on the lack of intimacy thing ... marriage enrichment might help with that, especially since you two have a whole 'nother identity as parents to a large brood, which I imagine could be harder for her to see herself as anything other than "mama."

[Art_Critic]

and in five more years, I'll still be in a sexless, no-intamicy relationship.

 

That is nothing more than an excuse to continue to drink Moose..plain and simple..

 

I would say that you need to fix one issue at a time in order to know how to deal with the next issue..

You can't work on the intimacy issue till you deal with the Alcohol issue..

[a4a]

I brought her into it because I feel as if my past, (regardless of how far I've come), is always brought up and I don't have a, "leg to stand on", when I try and tell my mom she's enabling my sister, and Mrs. Moose agrees with her.

 

It's the exact OPPOSITE of how I treat Mrs. Moose when mother runs her in the ground for keeping a sloppy house, and letting the kids run all over her. I stand up for her in front of my mother regardless where she is in her life at that point and time. And believe you me, it's not a pretty sight when that happens!

 

By not standing up for me though, it makes me feel like a failure, so I feel like: "why in the world should I even stop drinking if this is how it's going to be?"

 

I'm sick and tired of proving myself over, and over, and over again. I won't drink anymore, (my choice, to rid everyone of their ammo), and in five more years, I'll still be in a sexless, no-intamicy relationship.

 

So what is the difference? What do I do differently? Walk up to her and mom and say, "I've been sober for five years now, when are you going to straighten your fallacies out?"?????

 

It doesn't work that way, and I KNOW THAT AS FACT!

 

Whoa Moose.

 

Ok so you have no reason to stop drinking because it doesn't matter if you do?

 

Ok.... I can see this point. I really can. Honey, because no matter what I do to change myself my H won't change a lick either.

 

And hell yes...... I would sure as hell tell them to quit being friggin' hypocrites!

 

You have a very similar thread about your drinking and Mrs. Moose here from 2004ish. Mrs. Moose posted and said your drinking was no longer a problem.... has something changed?

 

You need to have a sit down...... put your cards on the table.... and say what you feel, not what you are supposed to feel.

 

What your W is pulling is utter BS also...... if she is aware of the problem and chooses not to put the effort into fixing it - she simply does not care.

 

So what we have here is two very stubborn people..... you with the drinking.....her with the sex problems. Neither are really willing to acknowledge the problem nor deal with it.

 

I see what you say about using it as ammo, I really do.

 

Time for a long drawn out sit down with the wife.

 

The situation with the sister just brought this all to the surface.

[Touche]

Well, I'm not so sure I agree with that, AC. He certainly CAN deal with the intimacy issue IF his alcohol consumption is not at the root of his problems with his wife right now. And we don't really know that it is.

 

Moose, be honest now...is your alcohol consumption a problem as far as your wife is concerned? Do you know how she feels about it now? I get the feeling that you both don't REALLY talk to each other on a deeper level. I mean outside of the superficial day to day stuff.

[Art_Critic]

I get the feeling that you both don't REALLY talk to each other on a deeper level. I mean outside of the superficial day to day stuff.

 

So what we have here is two very stubborn people..... you with the drinking.....her with the sex problems. Neither are really willing to acknowledge the problem nor deal with it.

 

Time for a long drawn out sit down with the wife.

 

 

I have to agree.. Maybe getting the air cleared will help..

but your wife needs to be able to talk to you about how she feels about your drinking..

If she feels powerless in your presence then she won't talk about the issue.. she will stifle it.

and the same goes in regard to you.. you need to be able to speak with her about the intimacy issues openly with her..

[Touche]

I have to agree.. Maybe getting the air cleared will help..

but your wife needs to be able to talk to you about how she feels about your drinking..

If she feels powerless in your presence then she won't talk about the issue.. she will stifle it.

and the same goes in regard to you.. you need to be able to speak with her about the intimacy issues openly with her..

 

Exactly. And when I wrote my post I hadn't seen A4A's...we were essentially saying the same thing.

 

I really believe that the fact that you two don't really talk and the fact that there's no intimacy are connected. I'm sensing that the alcohol is not the real issue here...although I could be wrong. I would have to know what the Mrs. thinks about it to know for sure.

 

You both need to get on the SAME side of things. You're not really a team right now. Take control of this.

[a4a]

You can build up quite a bit of resentment towards an alcoholic. .... that indeed can resurface and linger.

 

you drank and hurt me....... you still drink, even though you know how much you hurt me....... so no intimacy for you..... because you hurt me.

[Touche]

You can build up quite a bit of resentment towards an alcoholic. .... that indeed can resurface and linger.

 

you drank and hurt me....... you still drink, even though you know how much you hurt me....... so no intimacy for you..... because you hurt me.

 

You may very well be right. But we just don't know. This is what Moose has to find out and get to the bottom of. How can you fix a problem when you aren't really sure what the source of the problem is, you know?

[Moose]

That is nothing more than an excuse to continue to drink Moose..plain and simple..

 

I would say that you need to fix one issue at a time in order to know how to deal with the next issue..

You can't work on the intimacy issue till you deal with the Alcohol issue..

Art, you're refusing to hear me. I can't remember when I had my last beer. Don't care to have now, or even later on tonight......so what is your point? I don't need an excuse to drink. If I wanted to drink, I simply just would.

You still didn't answer my question- have you considered marriage counselling?

sb129, Believe it or not, Mrs. Moose and I ARE councelors at our Church for newly marrieds. But, there are other councelors there for, "mature" marriages that I could look into......I'll put that on my list as well....thanks!

"There but for the grace of God go I".This is an excellent point. I think that you should help your sister, Moose.

Thanks BO. But as you know, once a person is to the point my sister is at, the only thing you can do is allow her to hit rock bottom, and don't bail her out. You, (of all people here), should know that's the ONLY way I CAN help her right now.

I'll say it again, start with a time where it's just the two of you alone and talk. Tell her what's on your mind without being accusatory. Have you done this lately?

As a matter of factly, we just had lunch together, and I'll get to that here in a minute.

You have a very similar thread about your drinking and Mrs. Moose here from 2004ish. Mrs. Moose posted and said your drinking was no longer a problem.... has something changed?

Well, I don't drink as much as did even back then. AND, I had thought Mrs. Moose was agreeing with my mother, that's why I was hurt about it.

Moose, be honest now...is your alcohol consumption a problem as far as your wife is concerned? Do you know how she feels about it now?

OK.....now I can get to our lunch conversation.....

 

I asked her to tell me exactly how the conversation between my mother and her played out. Mom just filled her in on how sis got arrested, how she hopped in the car, drove 4 hours one way to post her bail, and how sis still had a manditory 24 hour complementary stay at GrayBar hotel, so mom just drove back home. She then went into her usual speal about, "I don't know what to do for her anymore", then it came to what I had told my mom and that was to stop enabling her, to kick her out, and let her fend for herself......she's a 45 year old adult, she doesn't need to live at home with mommy anymore, and she needs professional help.

 

Mom told Mrs. Moose that this really pissed her off. And that I was the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Mrs. Moose was confused at this, and didn't want to start an arguement, so she said she just nodded her head in agreement. When I heard of the conversation, (couple of days later), Mrs. Moose was just trying to convey to me my mother's feelings.

 

So I asked her if she felt there was any truth in what my mom said. She told me that my mother has only known me the first 15 years of my life, and that she hasn't seen the changes I've went through in the last 25 years, so she doesn't know how far of come, OR how far I plan on going.

 

So no, there isn't any truth in it, BUT, my mother can't see that.

 

I told her how it made me feel that she didn't stand up for me right then and there when mom said those things. She reminded me how she is about confrontation with my side of the family, so I lovingly dismissed it.

 

Someone in this thread asked about why I won't take physcological drugs in place of having a drink once in a while.....it's a looooooong story, but let's just say that if I go into it, I'll be wanting to hit the bar after work......

 

The drugs I used to take wouldn't allow me to function with a level head. You literally have to take them whether or not your having memories of your abuse, so I won't do it.

 

I asked if she had a problem with my current consumption rate. She said she wasn't even aware that I had still been drinking........there you go ART.....

 

I told her the truth, that I do have one or two when I'm stressed, or a situation causes me to reflect back to my past......

 

She hasn't got a problem with that at all. And thanks to Art, I asked her straight out if my demeanor changes after one beer......she says yes it does....."your a happy drinker"......sometimes when you come home upset about work and you start to vent, I'd almost prefer that you have a beer to calm down.....then talk to me about it.....lol.....

 

I'll write more......gotta some fires to put out here at the office.....but feel free to chew on this for me, and I'd appreciate more feedback.....

 

Thanks all!

[Art_Critic]

I asked if she had a problem with my current consumption rate. She said she wasn't even aware that I had still been drinking........there you go ART.....

 

She hasn't got a problem with that at all. And thanks to Art, I asked her straight out if my demeanor changes after one beer......she says yes it does....."your a happy drinker"......sometimes when you come home upset about work and you start to vent, I'd almost prefer that you have a beer to calm down.....then talk to me about it.....lol.....

 

first off.. I don't know what to say to the happy drinker comment from your wife..

I was a happy drinker from the first one.. your wife is telling you what you want to hear... that would be my best guess...

She is being non confrontational

 

Secondly..

I think when you are not drinking like you are now that you are what is known as a dry drunk..

 

You are still exhibiting behavior of a drinking Alcoholic but you just aren't drinking..

I would like to point out that there is a difference between SOBER and DRY

 

You are not sober...

 

This link doesn't exactly fit the guidelines but it is the best link to get my point across..

 

http://www.minnesotarecovery.info/literature/drydrunk.htm or this one..

 

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/info/a/aa081397.htm

 

If the mods remove it then just google dry drunk

 

Show some of those links to Mrs Moose and see if any of them ring true...

[polywog]

How come no one here has mentioned ALANON? It seems to me that your family members (including you) should check it out. I used to go to meetings and it really helped me out.

 

I'm afraid I'm a bit mystified, Moose, that drinking a six-pack is OK by you. Maybe compared to a case, but still.... that's a bit much. Just sayin'.