Best revenge on a cheating spouse...

[michelangelo]

And that's the question, isn't it? Judging by HC/SC's posts it would seem that any amount of tests, disclosure, transparency would ever be enough. He doesn't want to make his marriage work and it would seem he comes here to be validated for using passive/aggressive behaviour to make his wife's life hell. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

I think it would be worth it to his wife to settle it with the test. She has to know the anguish he is feeling, thinking her every breath is a lie.

 

If she is not a chronic liar, this will settle things positively.

 

If she is still lying about her affairs, this will settle things too.

 

If she wants to stop the barrage of questioning she must do this for him or just walk away.

 

Time to fish or cut bait.

[serial muse]

You know, this is a very good question for HC. From several of his recent posts, he seems to be saying that a lot of his anger is due to his wife not fully engaging in repairing the relationship (from his point of view), because she's still lying.

 

I have to admit, that would be a sticking-point for me, too - and in fact, that is the precise reason why I decided not to try to work it out...I knew I just couldn't trust my ex. But I didn't need a lie-detector test to prove that to either of us. Basically, I just knew him well enough to know that he was a compulsive liar - and I could no longer kid myself that he wouldn't lie to me about things that mattered. So it all went poof.

 

That doesn't sound like the case here, however. So my question for HC/SC is - what would be enough, at this point, to quell your anger? You know she can't take it back, so that's out. What could she do to re-earn your kindness, if not your trust? Is that even possible, at this point? (I recognize that it might not be.)

 

And I guess the second half of this is - what has she done to improve things with you? We know a lot about what she hasn't done, of course. But would you share with us whatever you can about what improvements she has made, how she has tried to earn back your trust, what she has said or done to show you she wants to restore your faith in her? I think that would be helpful to putting your story in better perspective. We know a lot about how angry you are, but little about what - if any - positive changes might be going on, on her end.

[a4a]

I think it would be worth it to his wife to settle it with the test. She has to know the anguish he is feeling, thinking her every breath is a lie.

 

If she is not a chronic liar, this will settle things positively.

 

If she is still lying about her affairs, this will settle things too.

 

If she wants to stop the barrage of questioning she must do this for him or just walk away.

 

Time to fish or cut bait.

 

I agree.... it is a bit odd, but if it does the trick of easing the situation then why not?

 

Seems simple enough to ask some yes or no questions. And would seem simple enough for him to then decide to forgive or not.

[Ladyjane14]

So if an engaged person gets a pass for screwing someone other than their fiancee because, well, the relationship has not been formalized by anything other than their word and expensive ring, what is the time frame for this "pass?"

 

What if a lady were banging the best man in the coat closet at the church an hour before the ceremony?

 

Would that be something that doesn't wash?

 

It seems to me that ANYTHING can be forgiven but the idea of keeping an affair secret from one's fiancee is just wrong. It is the height of selfishness to prevent someone you profess to love from having the chance to really know what they are getting into and either cancel the wedding or find a way to move forward if they can.

 

It is far more than dating to be engaged.

 

 

I can't speak for anyone else... but for me, you're not married 'til you are.

 

So yeah, if I found out years later that my husband had cheated before the marriage, I'd be miffed, but I wouldn't change the current dynamic over it. IOW, I'd use his history of behavior AFTER the marriage as my criteria for judging his character.

 

I agree with you that screwing around while you're engaged is wrong. And if I found out my fiance was cheating before the wedding, I'd not go through with the marriage. But I couldn't ignore YEARS of good fidelity over a premarital indiscretion either. Particularly not when there's a family dynamic to consider.

[whichwayisup]

So a lie detector test seems awfully intrusive and extremely unatural.

So does cheating.

 

And let's get real ....... there is a good chance she was screwing around on those late nights.

 

And if she had NOTHING to hide and really wanted to show her husband that she was telling the truth, as degrading as it is, she would take that test. How the heck is he to believe her when she says she wasn't out cheating when she was cheating before they got married and he found out from someone else many years later.

 

I think she is absolutely terrified to tell the truth so denying and not owning up to what she did to HC is easier for her. She isn't doing much and isn't showing remorse.

[serial muse]

I can't speak for anyone else... but for me, you're not married 'til you are.

 

So yeah, if I found out years later that my husband had cheated before the marriage, I'd be miffed, but I wouldn't change the current dynamic over it. IOW, I'd use his history of behavior AFTER the marriage as my criteria for judging his character.

 

I agree with you that screwing around while you're engaged is wrong. And if I found out my fiance was cheating before the wedding, I'd not go through with the marriage. But I couldn't ignore YEARS of good fidelity over a premarital indiscretion either. Particularly not when there's a family dynamic to consider.

 

Hmm...here's one of the (very few!!!) places where I disagree with you, LJ. To me, cheating is cheating and lying is lying...whether it happens before or after a ceremony, the same amount of trust has been broken. All that separates the two is a piece of paper and a ceremony, but the relationship and store of trust and love between the two people involved long pre-dates all the external trappings. So I would have an equally hard time forgiving such a breach of trust...it's all part of the same history of behavior, to me.

[whichwayisup]

I'd use his history of behavior AFTER the marriage as my criteria for judging his character.

 

And once married, her behaviour was going out with girl friends, staying out too late and getting her friends to cover for her. Her actions show that she would rather be out with friends and do whatever she felt like doing rather than be at home with her husband and kids.

[Tomcat33]

I think she is absolutely terrified to tell the truth so denying and not owning up to what she did to HC is easier for her. She isn't doing much and isn't showing remorse.

 

According to whom, she isn't doing much?

 

I thought there was always two sides to each story.....?

[michelangelo]

I can't speak for anyone else... but for me, you're not married 'til you are.

 

So yeah, if I found out years later that my husband had cheated before the marriage, I'd be miffed, but I wouldn't change the current dynamic over it. IOW, I'd use his history of behavior AFTER the marriage as my criteria for judging his character.

 

I agree with you that screwing around while you're engaged is wrong. And if I found out my fiance was cheating before the wedding, I'd not go through with the marriage. But I couldn't ignore YEARS of good fidelity over a premarital indiscretion either. Particularly not when there's a family dynamic to consider.

 

That's just it, how would you know that there were years of good fidelity? The evidence of it could be as much of a sham as the evidence of good fidelity during the engagement.

 

Not giving one's fiancee the chance to know the truth of their relationship is cruel.

[a4a]

I can't speak for anyone else... but for me, you're not married 'til you are.

 

So yeah, if I found out years later that my husband had cheated before the marriage, I'd be miffed, but I wouldn't change the current dynamic over it. IOW, I'd use his history of behavior AFTER the marriage as my criteria for judging his character.

 

I agree with you that screwing around while you're engaged is wrong. And if I found out my fiance was cheating before the wedding, I'd not go through with the marriage. But I couldn't ignore YEARS of good fidelity over a premarital indiscretion either. Particularly not when there's a family dynamic to consider.

 

With respect LJ I have to disagree.

If I went out and had sex or even something lesser while engaged I would certainly expect my H to be outraged. Afterall once you are engaged or state that you are committed in a R you are obligated to hold to your word..... Marriage vows are only words as well. Pile on a fat lie and years of hiding it and you have even a bigger mess...... years of feeling lied to and betrayed.

 

Until she steps up to the plate and comes clean he has all the reason in the world to doubt her.

 

IMHO she is hiding much more.

 

I understand the idea to save the M because of the kids, gotcha on that point.... but you know kids will survive, and this life is not a dress rehearsal.

SC/HC deserves an honest partner..... she has been dishonest with him for years about this. I can only imagine how hurt he is. So sad.

 

How can you move on when you don't know what you are moving on from?

[Ladyjane14]

All that separates the two is a piece of paper and a ceremony...

 

That's my point though, SM. It's NOT just a piece of paper or a ceremony to me. It's a sacrament. This isn't just a matter of religious belief, although that plays a part. It's also a matter of personal philosophy, where 'marriage' is also sacred.

[michelangelo]

 

How can you move on when you don't know what you are moving on from?

 

That line should be set in bronze somewhere.

[Ladyjane14]

That's just it, how would you know that there were years of good fidelity?

 

What proof does he have that there weren't???

 

You know, regardless of this woman's sins or lack thereof... I don't see how HC is absolved of holding up his end of the marriage if he CHOOSES to stay in it. He's certainly free to end it. Alot of folks would agree with his choice if he selects divorce.

 

But if he decides to stay in it, what is he hoping to accomplish by nurturing his anger to the exclusion if proactive healing????

[Tomcat33]

That line should be set in bronze somewhere.

 

I must admit I really liked that line too.

 

Is it just me or is 8months a long time to still have so many questions unanswered? This is what doesn't make sense about their agreement to stay together. How do you allow so much time to go by without having a face to face full on let's put it all out there kind of conversation!?!?

 

Was there ever anything like that SC? And what does she say when you tell her her answers are not enough?

 

I would love to hear her side of things....

[serial muse]

That's my point though, SM. It's NOT just a piece of paper or a ceremony to me. It's a sacrament. This isn't just a matter of religious belief, although that plays a part. It's also a matter of personal philosophy, where 'marriage' is also sacred.

 

Hm, based on the range of responses (just read a4a's) I guess it's just a matter of personal philosophy, as you say - how much significance a person places on the rites and/or concept of marriage itself. I do understand where you're coming from, but my philosophical view is that I see the relationship as a whole along a continuum, with marriage a happy moment of affirming commitment (rather than creating a new level of commitment, or representing a significant change or ramping-up).

 

But then, variety is the spice of life.

[Jinxx]

No...I can say that Jinxx absolutely does not have a self-esteem problem.

 

She just likes to deny that some people just simply can't resist advances from people other than their SO's or that they do it simply because it is new and exciting so as to appease her own reasons for cheating on her 2nd husband. She wasn't having every single little one of her needs met...so she saw it as her entitlement to go out and cheat.

 

Are you a psychiatrist? Wow. You don't know me or my situation. If you and I had met in person and had a conversation without you knowing you were really talking to me you'd have a different opinion. That I assure you.

 

New and exciting had nothing to do with why I had an affair. Low self esteem doesn't have anything to do with it either. Sorry to disappoint you on that. But since you mentioned self esteem.... there was a time when I did come close to having low self esteem...... It was when I was a BS like you. I almost hit rock bottom but got myself into therapy. You are no good to yourself or your children unless you seek help from a marriage counselor. But personally -- I think you are beyond that. You don't want help. I think you enjoy being miserable.

[Ladyjane14]

Until she steps up to the plate and comes clean he has all the reason in the world to doubt her.

 

IMHO she is hiding much more.

 

She very well might be. I'll give you that. But... she'd be STUPID to hand this man any more ammunition, considering how he's reacted to what he's heard already.

 

The WS is often just as distrustful as the BS. Maybe they aren't worried about their partner cheating.. but, they often feel like they can't trust their partner with any kind of emotional vulnerability.

[Guest]

What proof does he have that there weren't???

 

You know, regardless of this woman's sins or lack thereof... I don't see how HC is absolved of holding up his end of the marriage if he CHOOSES to stay in it. He's certainly free to end it. Alot of folks would agree with his choice if he selects divorce.

 

But if he decides to stay in it, what is he hoping to accomplish by nurturing his anger to the exclusion if proactive healing????

 

Most of us go into a marriage with unquestioning trust. An engagement is usually a very happy time of shared intimacy and excitement about a shared future. It doesn't into the mind that there is a secret betrayal hidden in the shadows.

 

So who's looking for evidence of an affair? I know I wasn't, I am sure HC didn't either.

 

But what happens later, after a long hidden affair is revealed, is that doubt is the number one operative method for dealing with a spouse who can both be unfaithful during a time that was until revelation considered one of the happiest times of a person's life and successfully dupe their spouse for an extended period of time.

 

If the doubt and anger roadblock could be removed or found to be not removable by spending 2 hours in a polygraph office. I would think that it would be worth it to anyone to do it.

 

Humiulating? Sure. But so is being cheated upon.

[michelangelo]

What proof does he have that there weren't???

 

You know, regardless of this woman's sins or lack thereof... I don't see how HC is absolved of holding up his end of the marriage if he CHOOSES to stay in it. He's certainly free to end it. Alot of folks would agree with his choice if he selects divorce.

 

But if he decides to stay in it, what is he hoping to accomplish by nurturing his anger to the exclusion if proactive healing????

 

Most of us go into a marriage with unquestioning trust. An engagement is usually a very happy time of shared intimacy and excitement about a shared future. It doesn't enter into the mind that there is a secret betrayal hidden in the shadows.

 

So who's looking for evidence of an affair? I know I wasn't, I am sure HC didn't either.

 

But what happens later, after a long hidden affair is revealed, is that doubt is the number one operative method for dealing with a spouse who can both be unfaithful during a time that was until revelation considered one of the happiest times of a person's life and successfully dupe their spouse for an extended period of time.

 

If the doubt and anger roadblock could be removed or found to be not removable by spending 2 hours in a polygraph office. I would think that it would be worth it to anyone to do it.

 

Humiulating? Sure. But so is being cheated upon.

[Art_Critic]

But... she'd be STUPID to hand this man any more ammunition, considering how he's reacted to what he's heard already.

 

I have to agree with this.. He has already vowed to spend every last penny of his fighting for physical custody of his kids to make sure she doesn't have custody.

 

I'm sure she knows that anything at this point that she tells him is liable to be used to bolster a custody fight.

 

They both seem to have made their own beds..

Until there is a cease fire of spitting anger they won't be able to get passed this.

[a4a]

What proof does he have that there weren't???

 

You know, regardless of this woman's sins or lack thereof... I don't see how HC is absolved of holding up his end of the marriage if he CHOOSES to stay in it. He's certainly free to end it. Alot of folks would agree with his choice if he selects divorce.

 

But if he decides to stay in it, what is he hoping to accomplish by nurturing his anger to the exclusion if proactive healing????

 

 

For some, maybe not for you this is a form of healing.

 

You have to get the anger out to heal.

 

And there is no proof because she refuses to give it. Which is silly IMHO, no biggie to take a LDT. 15 minutes of a few questions and they could indeed move on together or separate.

 

Which makes me wonder what HC/SC would do if it did come out that she was cheating on him during the M? hummm HC..... what would you do?

[Art_Critic]

You have to get the anger out to heal.

 

You are right.. but you also have to WANT to get rid of said anger first...

[a4a]

You are right.. but you also have to WANT to get rid of said anger first...

 

Considering that he woke up to this woman for years and later to find out that she had decieved him for years...... I don't think he is doing too bad.

 

She does of course have the power to put his mind to rest, she chooses not to for what reasons she feels are important.

 

Eventually he will let go of the anger. Either after the divorce or once she comes clean.

[Art_Critic]

She does of course have the power to put his mind to rest, she chooses not to for what reasons she feels are important.

 

something tells me that if putting his mind to rest and fixing the marriage is what he wanted then she would most likely do that if she wanted to amrriage to work..

 

But...... I have yet seen him say he wanted the marriage to work as a marriage..

He wants the marriage to work as a tool to satisfy his revenge. hence the thread title..

 

8 months is how long it has been since he found out.. if anything I would think that some change would be completed by now.. certainly you would think he would have a different outlook on things in 8 months times..

 

This is why I have repeatedly suggested therapy...

In 8 more months it will be 16 months since he found out.. he won't be any better off unless he can get rid of the anger... Therapy is where he needs to start

[whichwayisup]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1191227&postcount=19

 

HC, read above.

 

Originally posted by Thumbingmyway. This is a huge part of recovery. The WS showing and expressing remorse. it took my wife a full year to truly show and express remorse. A full year before her remorse became genuine and I actually FELT it. There is a huge difference between just saying I am sorry AND actually FEELING that it is genuine.

 

I really hope your wife gets to this point where she can open up, admit her mistakes and show remorse.

 

If she is able to come clean and tell you the truth about everything, would you be willing to give her a chance to make things right again? Or would you leave her.