Answered Prayer

[sb129]

That god exists. But i agree with you re: religion and some of your other stuff.

Obviously since I don't believe in god I don't believe in religion either.

[ilmw]

That god exists. But i agree with you re: religion and some of your other stuff.

Obviously since I don't believe in god I don't believe in religion either.

 

Ahhhh...gotcha..

 

I don't really believe in the classic "GOD"... some guy sitting on a throne.. etc.. I in fact was agnostic for as long as I could remember... but somethings happened to me... that changed my mind... and I am a much happier person for it..

 

As I said before.... its a personal thing... and having been on both sides of this... I get what you are saying..

[Island Girl]

I would only get angry at death if someone else was responsible for said death.

 

IE: medical negligence, murder, RTA etc.

 

I echo this thought.

 

I'd like to add my own IEs:

 

1. Prohibiting a vaccine that would prevent young girls from ever getting cervical cancer

 

2. Halting stem cell research that could aid Alzheimer's patients, those with Parkinson's disease, paraplegics, etc.

 

3. Faith healers such as Benny Hinn or Reinhard Bonnke who rob people and torment them into thinking that if they had just BELIEVED hard enough and purely enough their son/brother/father/mother/sister/aunt, etc. would have been saved.

 

yeah, there's a whole more but I'll stop there for now;)

[ilmw]

How about fundamentalism that teaches hate.. and to kill those who differ in opinion?

[sb129]

I echo this thought.

 

I'd like to add my own IEs:

 

1. Prohibiting a vaccine that would prevent young girls from ever getting cervical cancer

 

2. Halting stem cell research that could aid Alzheimer's patients, those with Parkinson's disease, paraplegics, etc.

 

3. Faith healers such as Benny Hinn or Reinhard Bonnke who rob people and torment them into thinking that if they had just BELIEVED hard enough and purely enough their son/brother/father/mother/sister/aunt, etc. would have been saved.

 

yeah, there's a whole more but I'll stop there for now;)

 

Oh yes!!!! Those things too.

 

ESPECIALLY (2).... someone very dear to me would benefit alot from stem cell research.

 

Benny Hinn makes my blood BOIL...... he is evil and dangerous. He should be on Americas Most Wanted.

[sb129]

How about fundamentalism that teaches hate.. and to kill those who differ in opinion?

 

And that. Especially that.

[amaysngrace]

People fly into buildings now because of the promise of Heaven after death.

 

But that's religion, not faith. It's a radical form of religion too. For those who lack a backbone and need to hide their doings behind the curtain of their religion. How anyone can say they have God in their life by any name and see nothing wrong with the killing of innocent others is beyond me. Our president George W. Bush included. And he's against the backing of stem cell research that someone else brought up. He'll kill others in foreign countries to boost our economy and fatten his own wallet and that of his friends but is so protective of embryos when it comes to stem-cells or abortion. HUH?

 

Some things we should leave God out of IMO.

 

 

Anyone angry at death is really not an "un-believer" at all.

 

Maybe they do believe a God exists but the difference is in their faith.

[Ariadne]

Hi Moai,

 

People have taken family members off of life support or medication to demonstrate their faith in prayer, only to have that family member die.

 

I don't know if that's illegal or not, or if it's violating people's rights. I think that's a different problem.

 

Easy. Pray for something we would consider impossible. The Bible says that all prayers are answered in the affirmative, and that prayer moves mountains. Literally. Try it and see if it works.

 

Well, personally I think the Bible is a crazy book.

 

But maybe people that believe in those things don't want to prove that they can move a mountain tomorrow morning or their prayers are void and null.

 

Miracles may be unpredictable, and the mountain may move some day. Because everything moves and changes form.

 

Ariadne

[pricillia]

I just wonder if it is prayers that are answered or if the things that happen are the natural progression of things to be.

[Moai]

But that's religion, not faith. It's a radical form of religion too. For those who lack a backbone and need to hide their doings behind the curtain of their religion. How anyone can say they have God in their life by any name and see nothing wrong with the killing of innocent others is beyond me.

 

They believe that because it is in the book that god wrote. The Inquisition happened because of what is written in the Bible. They have faith, and that faith is expressed through their religion. Just like all believers' is.

 

You see, it is not the book that makes you moral, but you take your morality and apply it to the book. You do that in your above statement. In the Bible, god commands that the Hebrews kill all the Canaanites except the young virgin girls, and to keep them as sex slaves. Would a good god command that? Is that the goal of a modern, Western army?

 

No to both. The fact is our morality has changed but the book hasn't. For a great many people we should roll back our morality to suit the book. That is what is happening in the Middle East right now. Dominionists here in the US want to do the same thing.

 

Our president George W. Bush included. And he's against the backing of stem cell research that someone else brought up. He'll kill others in foreign countries to boost our economy and fatten his own wallet and that of his friends but is so protective of embryos when it comes to stem-cells or abortion. HUH?

 

Well, the situation in Iraq is a bit more complex than that, but you are on the right track. Stem-cell research is illegal because he and others like him think that those 150 cells have a soul--a soul that is just as valuable as the girl's who has horrible burns over 90% of her body. It is nonsensical, to be sure. But we are not supposed to criticize others spiritual beliefs, are we? Who are we to tell them they are wrong?

 

The fact is that we must make decisions based on evidence and reason, period. The above example is one of many that shows how people's faith affects others OUTSIDE of the spiritual realm. And they are wrong, and it causes suffering.

 

Some things we should leave God out of IMO.

 

Yeah, like everything. No chance of that as long as religious faith gets a special pass within the realm of ideas.

 

Maybe they do believe a God exists but the difference is in their faith.

 

They have a lot of it. And it is in something that there is zero evidence for. When someone ardently believes that after death he will be rewarded with pleasures denied him on Earth, bad things happen. When someone believes that he knows what the invisible super-being wants and acts on it, bad things happen. Virtually every time.

 

Consider that millions die of AIDS in Africa, but missionaries will not talk to the people about condom use, let alone give them out. Because god would rather millions die than have a pregnancy prevented. Sound stupid? It is, and it is happening right now, in the 21st century.

 

The fact that people are making decisions based on a belief system that was developed when it was thought the world was flat should terrify every thinking person on this planet.

[Moai]

Hi Moai,

 

People have taken family members off of life support or medication to demonstrate their faith in prayer, only to have that family member die.

 

I don't know if that's illegal or not, or if it's violating people's rights. I think that's a different problem.

 

A different problem than what? The faith that they have directly causes death. But it makes them feel better, so who am I to judge?

 

Easy. Pray for something we would consider impossible. The Bible says that all prayers are answered in the affirmative, and that prayer moves mountains. Literally. Try it and see if it works.

 

Well, personally I think the Bible is a crazy book.

 

I agree.

 

But maybe people that believe in those things don't want to prove that they can move a mountain tomorrow morning or their prayers are void and null.

 

Which they are. Believers come up with various extra-biblical explanations for why prayer doesn't work. They do that because they know just as well as I do that prayer doesn't work. Hence the "god's will" argument. Or non-argument, actually.

 

Miracles may be unpredictable, and the mountain may move some day. Because everything moves and changes form.

 

Ariadne

 

Sure, and it does that naturally. We can even see it. But a miracle has never, ever happened. There are not unpredictable, they never happen.

[pricillia]

I just wonder if it is prayers that are answered or if the things that happen are the natural progression of things to be.

 

still think that in most cases this is the case...

[HokeyReligions]

I didn't read all the posts so pardon if I'm repeating anyone.

 

As an Agnostic here is my POV.

 

For those who have a belief in God perhaps finding lost keys is an answer to a prayer, who's to say it's not? God hasn't been disproved. Finding a lost dog -well, I won't go into that too much because I'm an animal lover to the nth degree and I know the statistics on finding lost pets. But what is it going to hurt for one to believe their pets return is an answered prayer? It dos not change anything for anyone else. To say that it is not proof of the power of prayers because there are still people suffering in the world is meaningless. It proves nothing.

 

If there is a God who knows what prayers will be answered in what way. Mom prayed for several years to just die and end her suffering. She finally did, but not for years. One of my first thoughts when I rushed into the nursing home to see her body was "well, mom, if you were right He finally answered you." Believers in God know that He will answer prayers in His time and in His own way - not necessarily what makes sense to us, or what makes us feel better in the moment.

 

Isnt' there an ongoing battle for our 'souls' between God and Satan? If that battle is not won then we are all at risk no matter what we believe. Our only hope for salvation is not of this world, but of eternity. If my mom was right, then the 80 years she spent here on earth were nothing and the suffering is forgotten because her soul is now at peace and she is content. Perhaps that is the real prayer behind the whispered platitudes of "hold on honey, you will be OK" to a dying child or starving nation. The prayer heals the soul, not the body.

[lonelybird]

Prayer can heal both soul and body. Everything has reason behind it, and we know that God has good intention behind it although we don't understand at the time, we are like little ant.......

 

Some prayer can change things in a supernature way, but I guess God wants not only the healed person turn to God, but also those who see the miracle would also turn to God.

 

Some prayer change things slowly in a nature process, like God changes people's heart, makes them to be more spiritual...obviously we know it is God who is working on heart because nobody can change people's heart like God does. Nothing is impossible for God

[Diamonds&Rust]

Ever heard of something called the "placebo effect"?

Yes, of course. So had the scientists. The patients don't know whether or not they're being prayed for, it's a double-blind.

 

What I DO have a problem with is someone telling me that prayer will work for me, and I should try it sometime. I don't want to.

Do you have a problem when bartenders suggest Tanqueray instead of Monarch? If you don't want it, don't take them up on it.

 

And I HATE people offering to pray FOR me. I find it insulting and rude. I don't offer to slay a virgin for them.

That's ridiculous. A belief in prayer hurts no one.

 

OUt of interest D&R, who funded the research you are talking about?

I'm not that interested in the research, it's not really a point of my argument.

 

The faith that they have directly causes death.

Death is a condition of life, and will happen to everyone regardless of their beliefs. The very nature of putting someone on life support is artificially delaying death, not preventing it.

 

The Bible says that all prayers are answered in the affirmative,

No it doesn't.

 

They do that because they know just as well as I do that prayer doesn't work. Hence the "god's will" argument.

It's not the prerogative of a believer to "argue" for their faith, at least not most.

 

But a miracle has never, ever happened.

So says Western Science, the same entity who chooses not to learn about anything they can't prove--for example, the majority of the human genome, easily dismissed as "junk DNA" with no purpose.

 

I, too, can deduce logically that there is no God and that prayer is imaginary. It does not make me any more enlightened to use a framework of thought that we have invented to think about something larger than us, it just makes me feel smarter if I let it do so. Instead, I'm thankful for the experiences that lead me to believe that such logical patterns aren't always the best way to think about things.

[Diamonds&Rust]

Moreover, prayer is described specifically in the Bible, what it is for, and how it works.

Not all believers in prayer are fundamentalist Christians, so don't use fundamentalist Christian logic to define prayer.

 

No, and I didn't say I was going to "clear them up." I am just going to illustrate a few of them.

And make a few of your own.

 

Conscious, rational thought has nothing to do with "ultimate reality" whatever that is. But it is the best way we have to understand the world around us.

It could be the best way you have, and that's fine. There are many times in my life that I can disagree with you, and not just during instances I would consider "religious experiences."

 

Moreover, god says very specifically that if you pray and have faith, you can move mountains, and that nothing will be denied you. Obviously that isn't the case.

Amont the most frustrating things about fundamentalists is that they quote an english translation of the bible and take each passage literally. You doing the exact same thing is not furthering discussion at all. An atheist who misinterprets sacred literature is no less misguided than a fundamentalist who does the same thing.

 

If I kidnapped your sister and tortured her because I had a plan to show you my power, or in hopes of you learning some lesson I would be considered horribly evil, and they'd lock me up and throw away the key--and rightly so. But god does it and he is good and it is part of a greater plan?

Uh, when has God kidnapped and tortured anyone? I thought you didn't believe in God.

 

In your case, the type of faith you have can be benign, but for others it is not. Honor killings, stonings for homosexuals, wars...all because of faith.

Plenty of murder, war, and discrimination occurs without the help of believers. Your reliance on the straw man is strangely humorous, because of how logical you advertise yourself to be.

 

People fly into buildings now because of the promise of Heaven after death.

You can pretend September 11th was entirely due to religious zealotry if you'd like, and ignore all the political causes; however, doing so really makes you no better than Jerry Fallwell saying that it's because of the gays.

 

The Inquisition happened because of what is written in the Bible.

Again, your extremely narrowminded interpretation of historical events is a ridiculous simplification. Your logic takes anyone who was religious or justified their actions with religion, and fallaciously assumes that faith drove them to act. It completely ignores the marriage of religion and politics that predates Christ.

 

If you really think that the Inquisition was caused by scripture, you would do well to learn a lot more about the Catholic Church in history.

 

The fact is our morality has changed but the book hasn't.

The Bible is not a moral handbook. It's a collection of many different books, in many different writing styles, in multiple original languages, to many different audiences, with many different interpretations. To treat every word of the Bible as a moral commandment is another straw man.

 

Of course there are Christians who misinterpret the Bible, but to misinterpret the Bible yourself to prove them wrong seems like a waste of time.

 

Consider that millions die of AIDS in Africa, but missionaries will not talk to the people about condom use, let alone give them out.

If you're so concerned with AIDS in Africa, why don't you volunteer to hand condoms out? Or donate money to people who do? Seems a lot more benevolent than criticizing people who devote their lives to medical care in Africa, and do plenty of good in spite of their antiquated beliefs on birth control.

 

Because god would rather millions die than have a pregnancy prevented.

It seems like you are more interested in being flippant and aggressive than logical. Missionaries do not claim to be God.

[Moai]

Not all believers in prayer are fundamentalist Christians, so don't use fundamentalist Christian logic to define prayer.

 

What does that mean? The Bible says very specific things about prayer. I didn't write it, god did. I don't believe any of it, but it is there, you can read it for yourself. I fail to see how that is "Fundamentalist Logic". If you think that those passages should not be taken literally, that's fine. Go ahead and post what your interpretation of that is.

 

And make a few of your own.

 

Assertion with no evidence. Nice.

 

It could be the best way you have, and that's fine. There are many times in my life that I can disagree with you, and not just during instances I would consider "religious experiences."

 

Really? Love to hear them.

 

Amont the most frustrating things about fundamentalists is that they quote an english translation of the bible and take each passage literally. You doing the exact same thing is not furthering discussion at all. An atheist who misinterprets sacred literature is no less misguided than a fundamentalist who does the same thing.

 

Hmmm. First off, why is it sacred in the first place? And why translate it into English at all, then? What you suggest above is that anyone interested in god needs to study Hebrew, ancient Greek, and Aramaic in order to "know" him. Is that what you are saying?

 

And how do you decide what is literal and what is not? I would imagine that it is the passages that have been shown to be impossible, or are morally objectionable--positions arrived at by reasoning and morality outside of the Bible itself.

 

The fact is that there are people out there who take "sacred" books literally. I assume that you believe that god answers prayer as well. If that is so, how does he do it, and why didn't he write about it in the Bible? Why is it when he is clear about prayer it is so easy to see that it is impossible?

 

Uh, when has God kidnapped and tortured anyone? I thought you didn't believe in God.

 

God never does anything, his believers do it. I don't believe in god.

 

Plenty of murder, war, and discrimination occurs without the help of believers. Your reliance on the straw man is strangely humorous, because of how logical you advertise yourself to be.

 

Sure it does. I did not say that it doesn't. But religion is one of the biggest ones--probably THE biggest one--there is. I am not aware of any culture that became more violent when it became more rational. I'd love to read an example. I don't think that you know what a "straw man argument" is. Your above statement is one, in fact.

 

A strawman argument is when you argue against a position or statement not made by your opponent.

 

Believers make the claim that god answers prayer. The evidence they provide is thin at best, and the results of said prayer are just what we would expect by probability. Therefore, we can conclude that prayer doesn't do anything.

 

You can pretend September 11th was entirely due to religious zealotry if you'd like, and ignore all the political causes; however, doing so really makes you no better than Jerry Fallwell saying that it's because of the gays.

 

Really. The US has done more to help and protect Muslims than any other country in the last thirty years. We haven't done anything to the Middle East (or Saudi Arabia specifically) near what we did to Vietnam, say, and they aren't flying planes into buildings.

 

Please enlighten me as to the political motivations of the men who kill abortion doctors and blow up clinics. Please enlighten me as to the politics behind honor killings, and inters-Muslim violence.

 

Again, your extremely narrowminded interpretation of historical events is a ridiculous simplification. Your logic takes anyone who was religious or justified their actions with religion, and fallaciously assumes that faith drove them to act. It completely ignores the marriage of religion and politics that predates Christ.

 

Where is the flaw in my logic? I am not using logic at all, I am reading what they themselves say, and what these people themselves say the reasons are.

 

Just because the god most people in this country worship is "Christ" doesn't mean people haven't been doing horrible things in the name of Zeus, Thor, or Vishnu. They have. It is the belief, not the invisible super-being they choose to follow.

 

Any sort of dogmatic thinking results in the same thing. Religion is the most popular one, by far. And I am not ignoring the "marriage" of religion and politics at all. In fact, that is exactly what I am talking about, in a larger sense.

 

If you really think that the Inquisition was caused by scripture, you would do well to learn a lot more about the Catholic Church in history.

 

Mmmm. don't think so. I have taken Formation of Christian Doctrine I and II, the Reformation, as well as several classes on the Crusades. I have also recently read The Malleus Maleficarum, which I found quite disturbing. Here is a pretty cool website about it:

 

http://galileo.rice.edu/chr/inquisition.html

 

Maybe you should do a little more reading. Galileo wasn't pardoned until 1992, by the way. Really keeping up with the times, those Catholics.

 

The Bible is not a moral handbook. It's a collection of many different books, in many different writing styles, in multiple original languages, to many different audiences, with many different interpretations. To treat every word of the Bible as a moral commandment is another straw man.

 

Fine that you think that, but most believers disagree with you. In fact, most people think that morality specifically comes form the Bible. And yes, there are many interpretations, most of them immoral and dangerous. One wonders why defend the Bible at all, or how it could have been inspired or even considered "sacred" in such a case.

 

Of course there are Christians who misinterpret the Bible, but to misinterpret the Bible yourself to prove them wrong seems like a waste of time.

 

Prove that your interpretation is correct and theirs wrong. And I am challenging their interpretation, so I must use it to argue my position. I am not engaged in a debate about doctrine, where it is "no, it means this" and "no, it means that". Whether other believers make claims you disagree with is your problem, not mine. Take it up with them.

 

Feel free to post some of your interpretations and we'll have a go at those.

 

If you're so concerned with AIDS in Africa, why don't you volunteer to hand condoms out? Or donate money to people who do? Seems a lot more benevolent than criticizing people who devote their lives to medical care in Africa, and do plenty of good in spite of their antiquated beliefs on birth control.

 

Do they? Really? It would seem that you think that if I shoot someone and then hold their hand while they die I am doing something good and noble.

 

Who says I don't donate money to the causes I care about? Why do you assume I don't? Perhaps it is because you don't, but since you don't care it puts you in a higher moral position? Or are you just trying to be snide?

 

It seems like you are more interested in being flippant and aggressive than logical. Missionaries do not claim to be God.

 

No offense, but I don't think that you even know what logic is, and in a few cases it seems you have trouble reading plain English.

 

Missionaries don't claim to be god, but they claim to represent him. And the act toward others based on their interpretation of what god wants, just like you are doing now. And people die because of it. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but it is a fact.

[ilmw]

I have enjoyed following this thread... lots of interesting opposing points of view...

 

Just out of curiosity Moai, why do you seem so against... GOD..

 

I personally don't care either way... but you do seem quite pissed at the entire religion thing.

[Moai]

Yes, of course. So had the scientists. The patients don't know whether or not they're being prayed for, it's a double-blind.

 

And hen tey lied about the data. Look it up. Moreover, it would be impossible to know who was being prayed for and who wasn't. Did those involved contact everyone these patients knew and ask that they not be prayed for? No, they didn't. Look it up.

 

Do you have a problem when bartenders suggest Tanqueray instead of Monarch? If you don't want it, don't take them up on it.

 

That's ridiculous. A belief in prayer hurts no one.

Nope, it hurts lots of people. Every day.

 

I'm not that interested in the research, it's not really a point of my argument.

 

Of course not. Someone somewhere said there was research that gave results you agree with, so why look further?

 

Death is a condition of life, and will happen to everyone regardless of their beliefs. The very nature of putting someone on life support is artificially delaying death, not preventing it.

 

Oh, ok. So taking medication that can prolong lives by years is artificially delaying it, so why bother?

 

If I steal someone's nitroglycerin pills and he dies, in this society I am guilty of murder. Or at the very least manslaughter.

 

When there is a medical procedure or drug schedule that can prolong life that is denied or rejected because of religious faith and that person dies, we can say that faith is responsible. And not just in Jesus (although that is sadly common), but also in holistic medicine, homeopathy, et. al.

 

No it doesn't.

Yes, it does.

 

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

 

I await your non-literal interpretation of the above.

 

Oh-- here's another: Matthew 21:21: "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

 

Ditto re: your interpretation. Tell me Jesus was lying, or that he was speaking in parables, or some other nonsense. Oh, am I taking it out of context? Yeah, that must be it.

 

It's not the prerogative of a believer to "argue" for their faith, at least not most.

 

But they should have to, that's the point. Why does religion get a free pass? No other area of human thought gets that treatment, and considering how dangerous faith is they should.

 

So says Western Science, the same entity who chooses not to learn about anything they can't prove--for example, the majority of the human genome, easily dismissed as "junk DNA" with no purpose.

 

What? It is "junk DNA". It serves no function in humans. that doesn't mean we aren't studying what these genes do (we are) or that DNA research is complete (it isn't.) Your above statement demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of how science works. Everything has a naturalistic explanation, and therefore we can understand all of it. Maybe not now, maybe not 50 years from now, but all phenomena have a natural explanation. I am not aware of one area of science where scientists said, "Why bother?"

 

Also, there is no "proof" in science. There is evidence and there is not.

 

I, too, can deduce logically that there is no God and that prayer is imaginary. It does not make me any more enlightened to use a framework of thought that we have invented to think about something larger than us, it just makes me feel smarter if I let it do so. Instead, I'm thankful for the experiences that lead me to believe that such logical patterns aren't always the best way to think about things.

 

Why do you need to feel smarter? And the patterns that you are using that are not science were invented, too, and there is no evidence for the opposite position.

[sb129]

Yes, of course. So had the scientists. The patients don't know whether or not they're being prayed for, it's a double-blind.

 

Do you have a problem when bartenders suggest Tanqueray instead of Monarch? If you don't want it, don't take them up on it.

That's ridiculous. A belief in prayer hurts no one.

I'm not that interested in the research, it's not really a point of my argument.

It's not the prerogative of a believer to "argue" for their faith, at least not most.

 

 

When it comes to gin, I am open to suggestions. When it comes to prayer, I am not.

I know that it is with the best intentions, but I would prefer it if people didn't pray for me personally. What they do for themselves is up to them.

Its the throwing it in your face that many believers do that annoys me. I never state my beliefs unless asked, whereas believers will volunteer it more often than not.

 

And just so you know, many people I am very close to believe in god and have derived comfort from prayer. Which for them is absolutely fine. My relationship with them means more to me than any argument over their beliefs.

 

If you aren't interested in the research, why quote it?

 

And funding is relevant, because LOTS of industries fund research that will make them look good. The tobacco industry is just one example. Why should a church be any different?

[Moai]

I didn't read all the posts so pardon if I'm repeating anyone.

 

As an Agnostic here is my POV.

 

For those who have a belief in God perhaps finding lost keys is an answer to a prayer, who's to say it's not? God hasn't been disproved.

 

Neither have invisible pink unicorns. The onus is on believers to prove god exists. You cannot prove a negative. Hence them trying to use prayer as evidence.

 

Finding a lost dog -well, I won't go into that too much because I'm an animal lover to the nth degree and I know the statistics on finding lost pets. But what is it going to hurt for one to believe their pets return is an answered prayer? It dos not change anything for anyone else. To say that it is not proof of the power of prayers because there are still people suffering in the world is meaningless. It proves nothing.

 

Two things: The finding pet example was printed in "Guideposts", a magazine devoted to bolstering people's faith. A woman lost her dog in the woods, and went into the house and prayed and prayed for the return of Fluffy, and she went back outsie and there was Fluffy! Praise God! See, faith is working in your life!

 

It goes beyond people suffering, it is BELIEVERS suffering. I quoted two of the many passages in the Bible that state cearly that god answers prayers and if you have faith you get what you want. And yet no matter how faithful, people with terminal diseases still die. So, either god ignores some believers and answers others (which means he was lying in the passages I was quoting) or he can't do anything extraordinary, or he doesn't exist. Which is the best explanation?

 

If there is a God who knows what prayers will be answered in what way. Mom prayed for several years to just die and end her suffering. She finally did, but not for years. One of my first thoughts when I rushed into the nursing home to see her body was "well, mom, if you were right He finally answered you." Believers in God know that He will answer prayers in His time and in His own way - not necessarily what makes sense to us, or what makes us feel better in the moment.

 

Then it isn't an answer at all. If I am suffering from a fatal illness but I know that I will die a lingering, painful death and pray for release, and that death eventually comes on exactly the schedule expected, that counts as an answered prayer?

 

Isnt' there an ongoing battle for our 'souls' between God and Satan?

 

No. I know there are people who think there is, but there is no evidence to suggest that.

 

If that battle is not won then we are all at risk no matter what we believe.

 

If Hinduism is true then we will be reincarnated, no matter what we do.

 

Our only hope for salvation is not of this world, but of eternity.

 

Why is that our only hope? Look at the claims you have made that have no evidence whatsoever. There is a being called god. There is a being called Satan. They are enemies. One hates us for some reason. One loves us. We have a thing called a soul. This is what they battle over. We need saving. This is true, regardless of the other claims about gods and what happens after death, even though they all have equal evidence.

 

If my mom was right, then the 80 years she spent here on earth were nothing and the suffering is forgotten because her soul is now at peace and she is content. Perhaps that is the real prayer behind the whispered platitudes of "hold on honey, you will be OK" to a dying child or starving nation. The prayer heals the soul, not the body.

 

But the Bible, the book from whence you get the idea of god and Satan battling, says that prayer DOES heal the body. Other people believe that, and they read the same book you do. Jesus says that prayer and faith will heal the body.

 

Think about this: I am sure that she disagreed with the other 2,499 versions of Christianity. So, she could have been wrong. She could be in a place of eternal torment. Who can say? People have just as much faith in Hinduism, but since their beliefs are false they are in hell. Does your mom get a pass because she was YOUR mom, or because she believed deeply? Many people believe that by being a good person you go to Heaven, but many others think you are saved by grace through faith. So there are people who think they are going to Heaven but they aren't. Are you sure your mom is one of them?

 

And lest you get angry with me, I am not the one suggesting such things are true, believers are.

[lonelybird]

Shouldn't god be at least as moral as I am?

 

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All you doing here is to dig toilet or negative.........and crash people's hope, how moral is that?

Isn't that pride and self-righteousness?

Did ant make human being? can an ant judge human being?

[a4a]

Hey I did not pray to have my 2 longshots come in second and third in the Derby...... $$$$$$!!!!

 

Likely being in the horse biz I picked up on some good "intuition" on which horse had the higher chances of winning that were not the front runners.

 

I think many Prayers are answered by simple "odds"...... funny that those are not answered, are chalked up to God's will, and it is better that they are not answered.

 

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I as an unbeliever do not fear death...... it is part of the equation of life. But perhaps I do embrace "earthly life" more, because I don't think this is a simple dress rehearsal.

[Island Girl]

All you doing here is to dig toilet or negative.........and crash people's hope, how moral is that?

 

I don't think what Moai is doing her is "to dig toilet" or in any way negative.

 

I see education as positive and enlightening.

 

If evidence goes against what you believe that is your problem.

The evidence remains.

 

There are those that would choose not to educate themselves for fear it may challenge beliefs they hold dear.

 

I don't understand this because if you believe something to be true but learn in can not be later in life then why is that a bad thing?

 

 

Isn't that pride and self-righteousness?

 

I don't think so. Knowledge is not pride. And speaking logically about a subject isn't being self-righteous.

 

Do you find that when people have a different belief than you -- you quickly label them as prideful, lacking in humility, ignorant of your "true" religion, etc.?

 

Does it help you to deal with a differing opinion to categorize people so you can dismiss them without having to listen or possibly learn something from them?

 

Did ant make human being? can an ant judge human being?

 

No ants did not make human beings. And no, an ant can not judge human beings.

 

What is your point?

[DutchGuy]

Scientific research already has proven that there is no significant difference in recoveries between patients that pray and/or are prayed for and patients that don't.

 

The only real advantage of praying is the effect of positive thinking.

Which only workes if you are dense enough to believe in the super natural.

 

I personal, and a lot of people around me, have had plenty of 'blessings' although I'm 'out of gods reach'.