Answered Prayer

[Jules]

everybody above has a valid arguement but people who do not believe in God rely on physical evidence of his existance where religion really is based on faith more than anything else.

 

perhaps praying for your grandma to make you cookies may work or no but prayer is not something to be taken lightly it is used so that people may communicate with God both invidividually or as a group in an attempt to help God change the world for the better.

 

I mean what physical evidence do you require of his existance? lightning bolts shooting down from the sky??? The world is messed up anyway because people dont pray enough and theyve turned away from God therefore making it harder for the world to form a communion of people and create peace. Everyone wants to do their own thing and think their own way and maybe thats why they see theres no God. They probably have pushed him out of their lives........

[Moai]

Total BULL right there.

 

You want TANGIBLE evidence. Which you know full well we can't produce.

 

But that is precisely the point. You are a Christian, right? Why should I pick your religion and description of god over Hinduism? Or Islam? Since you admit that none of you have any tangible evidence, how does one determine which religion is true?

 

Every anecdote I have read where someone prayed over got better, or after prayer a car started, or a storm passed over a believer and destroyed the house next door is asserted by every believer everywhere, no matter what name they call their god or gods. How can this be? If, as you say, Jesus is the only way the Heaven and you KNOW this to be true, how is it that a Muslim can be so unshakable as well?

 

Beyond that, since there is no tangible evidence, why should I listen to what you and your leaders say is true about morality, ethics, or anything else? For example, I am sure you believe that a marriage is between one man and one woman. Many Muslims believe in one man with many wives, and god says that is totally ok. Neither you nor they lose any sleep over whether or not you are doing the right thing.

 

I finished argueing with you because of your close mindedness.......your views and beliefs are impossible for me to follow.

 

Shocker. Beyond that, in point of fact you have barely started arguing with me. Why so frustrated? Isn't this an excellent venue for you to express your faith? You must know that it is not just you and I in this form. I am sure there is a lurker out there looking for answers, and they might find some of your reasons compelling, even though I do not.

 

You seem to think that if a tornado went through a junk yard, it can produce a functioning 747 Jet just out of chance.

 

Ah, that old chestnut. Actually, I don't believe that at all. Even a cursory glance at the history of this argument shows it to be fallacious--this is even admitted on many Creationist websites--yet you advance it again here. Why am I not surprised.

 

Sorry.....but like I've said before.....I don't have enough faith to be an athiest.....

 

Uh-huh. Why does it take more faith for me to not suppose that there is an invisible being that leaves no trace of its existence anywhere--something that you admit yourself above?

[Moai]

everybody above has a valid arguement but people who do not believe in God rely on physical evidence of his existance where religion really is based on faith more than anything else.

 

But they really don't. If it is just faith and that's it, why are believers trying so desperately to prove it? Type "evidence for god" into a Google search and look at the thousands of websites you get. Not one of them says, "There is no tangible evidence for god, we believe entirely on faith."

 

Not only that, these sites don't even agree with the central premise. Some support the Koran, others the Bible. How can this be? Both books cannot be the Word Of God as asserted, yet they both claim to have overwhelming evidence for their religion being the right one.

 

perhaps praying for your grandma to make you cookies may work or no but prayer is not something to be taken lightly it is used so that people may communicate with God both invidividually or as a group in an attempt to help God change the world for the better.

 

Which is better, praying and hoping for things to improve, or actually going out into the world and doing something?

 

I mean what physical evidence do you require of his existance? lightning bolts shooting down from the sky??? The world is messed up anyway because people dont pray enough and theyve turned away from God therefore making it harder for the world to form a communion of people and create peace. Everyone wants to do their own thing and think their own way and maybe thats why they see theres no God. They probably have pushed him out of their lives........

 

One demonstrable miracle would be enough. I would say that the world is messed up because people pray too much. Do you think that the believers in the Middle East aren't praying? Do you think that when the Sunnis go across town and blow up Shi'ites that they are doing so for reasons other than their faith?

 

Your assertion that more belief would equal more peace and love is obviously false. This is not true anywhere in the world. There is not one culture anywhere in the world that became more peaceful when it became more religious. Not a single solitary one.

[Jules]

hey maoi you stand by your beliefs and others stand by theirs and thats ok because in the end nobody is gonna change their mind no matter what people say so at the end of the day ive come to realise that religious debates are just pointless arguements at this stage!!

[bluetuesday]

moai you've been told time and time again that for those people who choose to believe in god, evidence is abundant.

 

i have explained to you why this is -- because people have free will. if they choose to accept that ONLY that which can be proved within the limited confines of current scientific experimentation is valid or has any truth to it, that will be their reality. this is because in order for you to have free will, the universe is loaded with plausible deniability which means if you want to reject any notion of god, you can do so plausibly.

 

you have chosen to accept the belief that only that which science can prove in its own way is valid. that's your choice, moai. accept it as such. science cannot, by itself, explain the universe, accept that too. intelligent belief in god - which i agree is separate from dogmatic belief - can explain the universe. this is a fact for anyone who explores intelligent belief.

 

the reason people have different faiths is the same reason that one pair of pants won't fit everyone. some people have a rigid religious outlook because they're at the stage where they need one. so whether they're hindu or christian or muslim doesn't matter - the acceptance of any outer religion reflects their level of consciousness, as does the belief that they're right and others are wrong.

 

so we have the experience we choose and we make those choices in this current life or in our past lives. this should answer the question you posed to me about katrina. everyone reaps what they sow -- sooner or later. and while it may seem random and unfair to you that a child dies and a robber lives (or whatever), please know that the universe is never random or unfair. it is a highly ordered system in which growth is the purpose of life and in which in order to grow, people often need to have done to them what they have caused other people to go through, in order to grow.

 

you look at a child as being clean, fresh, new, with no baggage, and someone who has never harmed anyone. this is very likely an illusion. the soul of ted bundy is, almost certainly, back on this planet as a small child now. what do you think that soul might reap in this lifetime if it refuses to learn its lessons any other way? that's a rhetorical question i don't need an answer to. i'm just putting it out there.

 

be peaceful moai. there is no right and wrong, as you see it. there are only people who are open to certain things and therefore experience them, and people who are not open to the same things and therefore don't. arguing about who is right, trying to prove one person is more right than others, is truly futile.

[Moai]

moai you've been told time and time again that for those people who choose to believe in god, evidence is abundant.

 

i have explained to you why this is -- because people have free will. if they choose to accept that ONLY that which can be proved within the limited confines of current scientific experimentation is valid or has any truth to it, that will be their reality. this is because in order for you to have free will, the universe is loaded with plausible deniability which means if you want to reject any notion of god, you can do so plausibly.

 

Well, free will is a great deal more complex than that. Do we have free will in the first place--and I am not talking about in relation to an omniscient super-being, even there being no god at all we may not have free will.

 

The culture in which we find ourselves limits the choices that we can make in any given situation.

 

But I digress.

 

I do understand your point about god leaving open plausible deniability, and that may be so. The problem is that when one accepts things on no evidence, where does it end?

 

Which is not to say everything is rational. I read a great example recently: someone's love of chocolate is not rational but not irrational, either.

 

Not only that, it isn't as if these claims are made in a vacuum.

 

you have chosen to accept the belief that only that which science can prove in its own way is valid. that's your choice, moai. accept it as such. science cannot, by itself, explain the universe, accept that too. intelligent belief in god - which i agree is separate from dogmatic belief - can explain the universe. this is a fact for anyone who explores intelligent belief.

 

Intelligent belif, the way I read it here, is an oxymoron. And science is the only thing that has any explanitory power at all. As I have said before, that is why everyone uses it all the time, in many cases without even thinking. And it works great. And while it is true that we cannot explain everything now, it does not follow that we cannot explain anything.

 

Moreover, as I read your definition of god, etc., it doesn't fit with the dominant view, that is to say, you don't believe in an anthropomorphic being, do you? What reasons did you use to reject Islam, or Jainaism, or Druidism? There must have been some, even if it is something as simple as they didn't "feel" right. Nobody adopts the religion of Amazonian tribesmen in outside of the people in those tribes. Why is that?

 

There is just as much evidence for their religion as there is all the others. If one is concerned about eternal life, a believer should expect damnation , just on probability alone.

 

the reason people have different faiths is the same reason that one pair of pants won't fit everyone. some people have a rigid religious outlook because they're at the stage where they need one. so whether they're hindu or christian or muslim doesn't matter - the acceptance of any outer religion reflects their level of consciousness, as does the belief that they're right and others are wrong.

 

Are they really at the "stage where they need one"? Muslim Fundamentalists "need" to oppress women? Hindus "need" to impose a rigid caste system? It's great that your particular brand of faith allows for difference, but none of the others do. In fact, the most popular religious books on the planet specifically say that the righteous are supposed to kill unbelievers. Look it up for yourself.

 

You need only turn on the television to see that billions of people take these verses very seriously.

 

It is also a fact that these religions won't work unless they are followed dogmatically, so what are we left with?

 

so we have the experience we choose and we make those choices in this current life or in our past lives.

 

Every claim above has no evidence to support it. if that is true, what would make you stop persecution of others? Didn't the starving child choose to be born to his parents so he could see what it would be like to starve? Did the young woman choose to be born in the Sudan, for example, so she could experience what it is like to have her clitoris torn out? Need I even go on? I'm sorry, but I find such to be disgusting and immoral, beyond the fact that it is ludicrous.

 

Such a belief may explain suffering in the world for you, but as I said I don't see how such a belief can lead you to do anything about it.

 

this should answer the question you posed to me about katrina. everyone reaps what they sow -- sooner or later. and while it may seem random and unfair to you that a child dies and a robber lives (or whatever), please know that the universe is never random or unfair.

 

Yes, it is. People do not reap what they sow, even remotely. Stalin lived a long, happy life, as did Mao. Can you not see examples in your own life of someone who is less than ethical and yet seems to have everything work out for him?

 

And "unfair" is a misnomer, as the Universe has no feeling one way or the other. Everything happens at exactly the rate of probability.

 

I am curious as to how you can say infants in gas chambers can be twisted to be remotely fair.

 

it is a highly ordered system in which growth is the purpose of life and in which in order to grow, people often need to have done to them what they have caused other people to go through, in order to grow.

 

I find that sick. CHldren starving in order to grow is repugnant.

 

you look at a child as being clean, fresh, new, with no baggage, and someone who has never harmed anyone. this is very likely an illusion.

 

No, that is not "very likely" at all. It is true, as far as we can determine.

 

the soul of ted bundy is, almost certainly, back on this planet as a small child now. what do you think that soul might reap in this lifetime if it refuses to learn its lessons any other way? that's a rhetorical question i don't need an answer to. i'm just putting it out there.

 

I'm flabbergasted. Truly.

 

be peaceful moai. there is no right and wrong, as you see it.

 

Yes there is. There is absolutely right and wrong. I am curious as to how you reached that conclusion based on what I have written.

 

there are only people who are open to certain things and therefore experience them, and people who are not open to the same things and therefore don't. arguing about who is right, trying to prove one person is more right than others, is truly futile.

 

No, it is only futile when one see things as a zero sum game, which this is clearly not.

[pricillia]

people pray on different levels, not everyone goes to church or reads the bible everyday.

 

But what are people praying for anyway, I can't help but think that so much of the time it has to do with thier own success.

 

I do believe in prayer, someone recently told me that prayer is like an arrow.

 

This though is a person I admire and respect because of who he is, not a priest, just a regular human being with strenghts and weaknesses

[Enema]

I think Moai has so much to say that many of his interesting questions go unanswered.

 

Can any of the christians on board provide some insight to this one from up a bit higher?

 

Originally Posted by Moose

 

Total BULL right there.

You want TANGIBLE evidence. Which you know full well we can't produce.

 

Originally Posted by Moai

 

But that is precisely the point. You are a Christian, right? Why should I pick your religion and description of god over Hinduism? Or Islam? Since you admit that none of you have any tangible evidence, how does one determine which religion is true?

[bluetuesday]

I'm sorry, but I find such to be disgusting and immoral, beyond the fact that it is ludicrous.

 

I am curious as to how you can say infants in gas chambers can be twisted to be remotely fair.

 

I find that sick. Children starving in order to grow is repugnant.

 

I'm flabbergasted. Truly.

 

perhaps if you stopped being sickened, disgusted and flabbergasted long enough to actually contemplate what i've said, you might understand it a little better.

 

perhaps a soul chooses to be born in the sudan, knowing that its life will be short, in order to teach the world compassion. perhaps that soul doesn't consider its choice 'repugnant' as it sees the service it is doing to humankind. or perhaps a soul wants so much to grow in one lifetime that it chooses an embodiment you would consider less than perfect in order to balance much of the karma it has made in previous lifetimes.

 

you shouldn't judge. you don't know people's true history. you look at chairman mao and think he had a cushy life? you are seeing him through a pinhole which makes you think life is random. if you could step back and see a bigger picture you would be satisfied that mao, like everyone else, will reap everything he has sown. this process takes time (of course, or bad acts could instantly wipe out their perpetrators and remove their chance to learn in that lifetime), which is, incidentally why you see 'good people' have lots of crap happen to them. they are just reaping what they have sown before you knew them. it happens to everyone, including you.

 

the mystery isn't that this process happens. it's that people want to believe so firmly that their choices won't have consequences that they close their eyes to the truth, thinking this makes them invisible to the mechanical process of karma. everyone discovers the fallacy of this sooner or later.

[Moose]

perhaps if you stopped being sickened, disgusted and flabbergasted long enough to actually contemplate what i've said, you might understand it a little better.

That was my original thought looking at the responses. It's as if Moai takes all of the religions of the world, and blames all religion, for every tragedy that's ever happened on this Earth.....

 

The media, society, and the scientific realm of society will pitch everything they know about evolution, and do everything they can to dismiss the fact they haven't a clue how we actually came about.

 

The only reason I feel compelled to respond to Moai's posts is because of his outright claims that God doesn't exist, that scripture is, "fairy tale" and that all Christains are ignorant savages who believe differently.

 

He would more correct, in my mind, to claim that these are things he BELIEFS, and not claim them to be FACT.

 

Otherwise, he IS guilty of being JUST as zealous as the very people he preaches against.....

[Moose]

I think Moai has so much to say that many of his interesting questions go unanswered.

 

Can any of the christians on board provide some insight to this one from up a bit higher?

His many questions not being answered is only because he refuses to listen. Many of his questions are so ludicrous that they don't need/deserve an answer.

Why should I pick your religion and description of god over Hinduism? Or Islam? Since you admit that none of you have any tangible evidence, how does one determine which religion is true?

You listen to your, "conscience". I understand that you've done this before Moai, however, you need to come to terms that you've accepted your beliefs, and I have accepted my own. So has a host of others.

 

BUT, this by NO MEANS puts me or ANYONE ELSE for that matter in an, "ignorant", or "murderer", or "hypocrite" bus simply because our conscience has convinced us of our path and it doesn't jive with yours.

 

You have no right to come out and claim that only the ignorant, less intelligent, weak man has faith in God and that athiesm is fact.

[disgracian]

You have no right to come out and claim that only the ignorant, less intelligent, weak man has faith in God and that athiesm is fact.

Likewise no Christian has the right to claim a monopoly on morality and truth, denounce other religions as false and that others are less moral and kind as a result.

 

There are some Christians here who do that more or less constantly, yet I don't see you reprimanding them. Moai is just a flipside of the same coin, and the fact that you rail so hard against him is very revealing.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Likewise no Christian has the right to claim a monopoly on morality and truth, denounce other religions as false and that others are less moral and kind as a result.

 

There are some Christians here who do that more or less constantly, yet I don't see you reprimanding them. Moai is just a flipside of the same coin, and the fact that you rail so hard against him is very revealing.

 

Cheers,

D.

Examine the definitions of "fact" and compare it to "faith".

 

I admit, that I'm guilty of posting my faith as fact on this board. I've done it in the past, and I may slip and do it again in the future.

 

BUT, I'm willing to admit that my faith is indeed fact in MY mind, heart, and soul and no man, (or woman), will change that.

 

I challenge the OP to do same......whatever his faith may be.....

[disgracian]

I know the difference between faith and fact; something that can't be said for many theists.

 

Just so I'm not totally off base here, you are admitting that you treat your beliefs as fact (just as Moai does) and are willing to admit that, but you then go on to challenge him to do what he's already doing...the same thing for which you just finished telling him he had no right to do?

 

Help me out here.

 

Cheers,

D.

[pxer]

Certainly beliefs can shape the way someone sees the world. And while these beliefs may make one feel good, that in itself is not enough reason to tolerate them.

 

I believe that there is oil in my backyard. There is so much oil there that I'll be rich beyond measure when I strike it. That belief really makes me feel good. It is delusional and demonstrably false, but it makes me feel good, so what's the big deal?

 

 

 

Beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. If you believe that the human soul enters at the moment of conception, then abortion is murder, and stem-cell research is an abomination. People who believe more stridently blow up clinics and research facilities.

 

Spirituality and religion are very separate things.

 

Why not tell people about fallacious reasoning? For many, god-belief is somewhat benign, but for most it is actually dangerous and effects everyone, not just the believer. To sit back and say nothing is to grant it tacit approval. It is reaching the point when we will destroy ourselves unless we throw off the shackles of beliefs that are 2,000 years old and for which there is no evidence.

 

I disbeleive that spirituality and religion are two different things. You can't have one without the other. Religion is the guideline to Spirituality. As for your reasoning about Prayer, who are you to say that a God doesn't exist? Just because the world isn't perfect doesn't mean that there isn't one. So stop blaming everything you don't understand by pretending you know all the answers, because you don't.

[disgracian]

As for your reasoning about Prayer, who are you to say that a God doesn't exist?

Who are you to say there is? Or who are you to say anything at all? If you're this sensitive to people expressing their opinions, then perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.

Just because the world isn't perfect doesn't mean that there isn't one. So stop blaming everything you don't understand by pretending you know all the answers, because you don't.

Hey, that sounds just like religion: people who pretend to have all the answers and blame others for being different to you.

 

Irony. You has it.

 

Cheers,

D.

[lindya]

Hey, that sounds just like religion: people who pretend to have all the answers and blame others for being different to you.

 

Religious fundamentalism generally seems to be about people fighting tooth and nail to keep believing in the idea of their own eternal life - and, perhaps even more exciting than that, keep fantasising about their enemies burning in hellfire. Self interest and hatred in their most extreme forms, parading as something holier than thou. No wonder so many fundamentalists decry psychoanalytic theory when they've got so much invested in encouraging people to resort to these unhealthy thoughts.

 

I have the greatest respect for those who quietly practice a religion, find it brings peace into their lives and are gentle and kind people. The people I've known and liked who fit into that category don't seem to spend any time contemplating whether there's a plush room awaiting them in God's mansion. They're just, perhaps, naturally kind and decent people who want to be part of an organisation (religion) that will put them in touch with others like themselves. Unfortunately for them, religion is also inclined to attract those who see it as little more than a feast of opportunities to endlessly berate and preach at others under explanation that they have the authority of God to do so.

[Moose]

Just so I'm not totally off base here, you are admitting that you treat your beliefs as fact (just as Moai does) and are willing to admit that, but you then go on to challenge him to do what he's already doing...the same thing for which you just finished telling him he had no right to do?

I've admitted it because I need to practise explaining to people what my faith is and not claim it as their fact. I think Moai is incapable of doing that.

Religious fundamentalism generally seems to be about people fighting tooth and nail to keep believing in the idea of their own eternal life - and, perhaps even more exciting than that, keep fantasising about their enemies burning in hellfire.

I wanted to clear something up about this comment. My faith isn't about just ME having eternal life.....it's about ALL having eternal life. I have no desire to see my, "enemies", burn in hell fire either. Rather, I'd like to see everyone saved, but I know in my heart that'll never be......

 

This, "generalization" you see in Religious Fundamentalism is a product of what today's media and society allowed you and the world to see.

[Moai]

perhaps if you stopped being sickened, disgusted and flabbergasted long enough to actually contemplate what i've said, you might understand it a little better.

 

You make the assumption that I haven't come across your assertion before, and that I haven't thought about it. I have heard it before, and I examined it closely, and I find it abhorrent.

 

perhaps a soul chooses to be born in the sudan, knowing that its life will be short, in order to teach the world compassion. perhaps that soul doesn't consider its choice 'repugnant' as it sees the service it is doing to humankind. or perhaps a soul wants so much to grow in one lifetime that it chooses an embodiment you would consider less than perfect in order to balance much of the karma it has made in previous lifetimes.

 

Other animals show compassion as well, even toward other species. DO animals have souls?

 

We can come up with infinite concepts that would "explain" what we see on a cursory level, but that would not make any of them true, or even satisfactory.

 

Where do these souls hang out before they choose their parents? How can we tell if their sacrifice was successful? The Holocaust certainly didn't teach human beings anything about genocide, or the wrong-headedness of anti-Semitism.

 

[qutoe]you shouldn't judge. you don't know people's true history. you look at chairman mao and think he had a cushy life?

 

Yes, he did.

 

you are seeing him through a pinhole which makes you think life is random. if you could step back and see a bigger picture you would be satisfied that mao, like everyone else, will reap everything he has sown.

 

So you assert, on no evidence. But what did he do previously that put him in such a position? By any standard he was rewarded for something.

 

this process takes time (of course, or bad acts could instantly wipe out their perpetrators and remove their chance to learn in that lifetime), which is, incidentally why you see 'good people' have lots of crap happen to them. they are just reaping what they have sown before you knew them. it happens to everyone, including you.

 

You contradict yourself. How can someone prevent what someone else is to learn, if we choose our experience? By your own statements, the infants the priests in Peru killed after baptism asked to be put in that position. Also, since karma has something to do with where we are put, those infants' karma put them in that position. Nobody can escape their karma, and yet you suggest above that it happens. How can this be?

 

Yet again, a religious position isn't internally consistent.

 

the mystery isn't that this process happens. it's that people want to believe so firmly that their choices won't have consequences that they close their eyes to the truth, thinking this makes them invisible to the mechanical process of karma. everyone discovers the fallacy of this sooner or later.

 

And again, what you claim so firmly to be truth is in direct opposition to what others assert to be truth just as strongly. If one is truly seeking and they weigh your assertions against Islam, say, what would they use to choose one over another?

[Moai]

That was my original thought looking at the responses. It's as if Moai takes all of the religions of the world, and blames all religion, for every tragedy that's ever happened on this Earth.....

 

I don't do that. Religion is in no way responsible for all the evil in the world, but it is responsible for a great deal of it.

 

Religion and moral or immoral behavior is not responsible for natural disasters, for one thing.

 

Dogmatism is the main culprit in human-caused suffering, and religion is the most dogmatic thing I am aware of. There are others, but they don't seem to be as endemic as religion.

 

Moreover, religion is constantly touted as the answer to all social, political, and economic problems everywhere. "If only everyone believed in god, the world would be a better place." But the truth is almost everybody believes in god right now, and we are getting more, not less violent.

 

I have posted it again and again, but reality shows that the ore secular and rational a culture, the more peaceful and stable it is. No believers seem to want to address this issue, they just gloss over it and say I am narrowminded or something.

 

The media, society, and the scientific realm of society will pitch everything they know about evolution, and do everything they can to dismiss the fact they haven't a clue how we actually came about.

 

We have a clue, but not the whole answer. But of course, you do. You have the answers to questions that no working scientist would claim to know. And you get them from a book written by people who didn't know enough to keep excrement out of their food.

 

We do know that evolution is a fact. This fact alone shows that humans were not "created" as "special."

 

The only reason I feel compelled to respond to Moai's posts is because of his outright claims that God doesn't exist, that scripture is, "fairy tale" and that all Christains are ignorant savages who believe differently.

 

Yes, I claim there is no god or gods. So do you, in fact. You do not worship Allah or Vishnu or Zeus, you do not sacrifice to Aztec gods, you do not read pigeon entrails to divine the future--basically you reject just as much of god belief as I do save one.

 

And all Christians do believe differently. There are Anglicans, Catholics, Mormons, Pentacostals, Baptists, Southern Baptists, Shakers, Millenialists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Nazerene, Assembly Of God--shall I go on? ANd they don't believe the same way, and don't view scripture the same way, either.

 

And yes, scripture is obviously a fairy tale. You would agree that the Koran is a fairy-tale, that the Vedas are a fairy-tale, and that the stories of the Greek and ROman gods are fairy-tales, no? Why is your book any different?

 

He would more correct, in my mind, to claim that these are things he BELIEFS, and not claim them to be FACT.

 

Otherwise, he IS guilty of being JUST as zealous as the very people he preaches against.....

 

But you claim that your beliefs are fact, do you not? And I have evidence that supports my position. Once specific claims about reality are asserted by religious believers, we can examine such a claim and determine whether it is true or false. And all of them are false. Can we not draw a conclusion based on such a fact? As I mentioned above, you do exactly this with regards to Islam, for example.

[Moai]

I disbeleive that spirituality and religion are two different things. You can't have one without the other. Religion is the guideline to Spirituality. As for your reasoning about Prayer, who are you to say that a God doesn't exist? Just because the world isn't perfect doesn't mean that there isn't one. So stop blaming everything you don't understand by pretending you know all the answers, because you don't.

 

You can disbelieve all you want, but the facts say otherwise. Buddhists are deeply spiritual, yet they postulate no deity. Religion is actually the attempt to codify spirituality, and when that happens it leads to bad things. Look it up.

 

I am not blaming something I don't understand. I understand it better than you, it seems. I can see that when people make decisions about the modern world based on ancient books they get the wrong answers, and that puts everyone in danger.

 

It wasn't atheists who blew up the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan, it was the Taliban, and they did so because of their deep religious faith and their book said they had to. What knowledge was destroyed, what beauty! And that is just one example.

 

When priests landed on Easter Island, they found a carved stone that codified all of the polynesian languages and their religious beliefs. It explained why they built the Moai, and how their culture developed. And the priests destroyed it because they found it to be Satanic. We are now ignorant forever regarding those statues because of it. Thanks, bro....

[Moai]

His many questions not being answered is only because he refuses to listen.

 

I have listened to your answers, and I reject them.

 

Many of his questions are so ludicrous that they don't need/deserve an answer.You listen to your, "conscience". I understand that you've done this before Moai, however, you need to come to terms that you've accepted your beliefs, and I have accepted my own. So has a host of others.

 

I am totally at peace with my beliefs, as you call them. And I do listen to my conscience as well.

 

BUT, this by NO MEANS puts me or ANYONE ELSE for that matter in an, "ignorant", or "murderer", or "hypocrite" bus simply because our conscience has convinced us of our path and it doesn't jive with yours.

 

Sure it does, save "murderer". The only way you can be a murderer is if you actually kill someone. But you stand is support of murderers, and many of the greatest thinkers in your religious tradition sanctioned murder. None of that is my fault, of course.

 

You have no right to come out and claim that only the ignorant, less intelligent, weak man has faith in God and that athiesm is fact.

 

In point of fact, I have the right to claim anything I want. So do you. It is just that I choose to make claims based on evidence, while you do not.

 

I never said that less-intelligent people believe in god, although it is true that most atheists are found in the more educated areas of society. I also never said a weak man has faith, either. Weakness has nothing to do with the ability to accept evidence or not.

[Moai]

I've admitted it because I need to practise explaining to people what my faith is and not claim it as their fact. I think Moai is incapable of doing that.

 

That's because I don't have any faith. I am capable of admitting al kinds of things, but admitting I have faith when I don't is not one of them.

 

I wanted to clear something up about this comment. My faith isn't about just ME having eternal life.....it's about ALL having eternal life. I have no desire to see my, "enemies", burn in hell fire either. Rather, I'd like to see everyone saved, but I know in my heart that'll never be......

 

Right there you contradict yourself. You say that your faith is just for you, but in one fell swoop you admit that hell awaits those who do not believe as you do. In point of fact your faith is for everybody. And you act accordingly.

 

This, "generalization" you see in Religious Fundamentalism is a product of what today's media and society allowed you and the world to see.

 

That's funny. I would suggest that anyone who thinks this assertion is remotely true go and read the Fundamentalist websites for themselves and draw their own conclusions. That's what I did. I am sure that is what the "media" does as well.

 

I saw Jerry Falwell claim that 9/11 happened because god removed his protection from us because of immorality. He said it himself, the "media" didn't say it for him.

 

Just type in "true Christians" into a Google search and read away.

 

Examine the definitions of "fact" and compare it to "faith".

 

I admit, that I'm guilty of posting my faith as fact on this board. I've done it in the past, and I may slip and do it again in the future.

 

BUT, I'm willing to admit that my faith is indeed fact in MY mind, heart, and soul and no man, (or woman), will change that.

 

I challenge the OP to do same......whatever his faith may be.....

 

But you have to claim that your faith is a fact. Jesus is the only way to Heaven, correct? That invalidates every other religion, and dooms every other believer to hell.

 

It would be hypocritical (and against Jesus) for you to suggest that other beliefs are valid when you clearly believe that they aren't.

 

I do not have "faith" that there is no god. I know it in my bones. I have examined all religious claims, and none have nay merit. None of them, anywhere, any religion. You agree with me, save one.

 

You don't lose any sleep because you think that the Koran might be true, do you? Think about that. Now you know exactly how seriously I take what you "know" to be true.

 

To put it another way, my "faith" in the principle of lift doesn't make the airplane fly, does it? I don't have faith in lift, I know lift works because I can test it. Testing things works great, and is the best tool to determine truth yet devised. And when we test the claims of believers, they fail.

 

I will say that I do have faith in science, and that faith is well-placed. Given its track record, I would be remiss to put my faith anywhere else.

[Moose]

That's because I don't have any faith. I am capable of admitting al kinds of things, but admitting I have faith when I don't is not one of them.

Sure you do. You have faith in man made science and you've admitted that. If you go in to have heart surgery, and they've asked your permission to try a new procedure that science guarantees will work.....you'd let them wouldn't you? That's faith......if you don't allow them, then you're a hypocrite to your, "faith".

Right there you contradict yourself. You say that your faith is just for you, but in one fell swoop you admit that hell awaits those who do not believe as you do. In point of fact your faith is for everybody. And you act accordingly.

Read it again. I clearly stated that my faith IS NOT JUST for me, but for all who CHOOSE to believe. Just because I believe all others will be hell bound, (if they choose not to accept Christ as Saviour), doesn't mean the guy sitting next to me will. It is not my desire that they do of course, but there isn't anything I can do about that.

 

As painful as it is, I have to accept that. You, however cannot.

 

You ramblings on about how religion is destroying your world, or directly affecting you is proof to me that your own beliefs are shaken.

That's funny. I would suggest that anyone who thinks this assertion is remotely true go and read the Fundamentalist websites for themselves and draw their own conclusions. That's what I did. I am sure that is what the "media" does as well.

Remotely true? Do you even watch TV? Listen to the radio? See billboards on your way to work? I'm talking about what is all around us that doesn't take a google search to find. Resources that our kids have access to whether or not they choose to have it.

I saw Jerry Falwell claim that 9/11 happened because god removed his protection from us because of immorality.

So.....since Jerry Falwell is a Christian and he spoke these words, you're saying that I must subscribe, and agree that is what indeed took place? Nonsense.

Just type in "true Christians" into a Google search and read away.

Sure....use a secular tool to explain a spiritual concept.....that'll go over well won't it? Good try though....

But you have to claim that your faith is a fact.

Yes.....I do. It's my fact, and I have the proof through my own experiences for it to be true. I'm truly sorry that this isn't tangible enough for you to believe......but think about this..... if you do choose to go under a knife, (heart surgery above), using the confessions of a man of science, and choose to ignore the confessions of a spiritual man.....that's your loss, and perhaps your ignorance. There isn't anything I can do about that.

Jesus is the only way to Heaven, correct?

Yes, I believe that to be fact indeed.

That invalidates every other religion, and dooms every other believer to hell.

Not every other religion, and no, every other believer would not go to hell. If they are a believer, and know Christ as their Saviour, they will not perish. Maybe you should be more clear on your definition of, "believer"? Because to me, that's anyone who knows Christ as Saviour.

It would be hypocritical (and against Jesus) for you to suggest that other beliefs are valid when you clearly believe that they aren't.

I believe Christ is THE only way to God. Period. When people ask what denomination I am, I say, "Baptist".....simply because I attend a Baptist Church. Do I believe EVERYTHING my pastor or teacher preaches? No. I do not. Does that make me less of a Baptist? No, it does not.

 

So don't think of me saying this religion is valid or not. It's the doctrine that Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE light......no man, (or woman), comes to The Father but by Him that is the vital element.

 

You could be the grand pooh pa of the third church of the crecent moon.....I don't care.....if you know Christ as your Saviour....you'll be among those in heaven.......

I do not have "faith" that there is no god. I know it in my bones.

And here is the WHOLE CRUX of it Moai. "I know it in my bones". This is good enough for you? I think not. You need evidence. You need tests. You need to tangibles to hold in your hand.....yet you cannot prove that God DOES NOT exist. I know in my bones that He does exist. I've done a few of my own tests, and the way my heart if filled is tangible enough for me, yet my words and claims are dismissed. Why? Why can you feel it in your bones, even though you can't prove He doesn't exist, and I can feel it in my bones, even with my testimony, my filled heart, my experiences, my conversations with God that he does exist?

 

I'll tell you why. You can't stand it when someone disagrees with you, and dismisses you're claims.

You don't lose any sleep because you think that the Koran might be true, do you?

As a matter of FACT......I've lost TONS of sleep doubting that which is possible. What if I don't have it right? What if I'm wasting my time on earth being such a goodie 2 shoes? What if I should've been laughing with the sinners rather than crying with the saints?

 

Sure......I've dwelled on these things many of times. Then I go back to Scripture, and I PRAY about these things. The Holy Spirit calms me. It doesn't mean the storm is gone, it comes and goes. However, I am calmed by the Holy Spirit to seek the truth and hide it in my heart.

Now you know exactly how seriously I take what you "know" to be true.

And now you should know that even my faith is shaken from time to time, and I'm intelligent enough to examine it over and over. What you can't accept is the fact that a smart man would disagree with you. Face it.

To put it another way, my "faith" in the principle of lift doesn't make the airplane fly, does it? I don't have faith in lift, I know lift works because I can test it. Testing things works great, and is the best tool to determine truth yet devised.

And I say, IMO, that you wouldn't have, "lift" or, "tests" or, "tools" if God hadn't provided all of the neccessary elements before hand. It's not hard to understand that God and Science are synonymous. That EVERYTHING can be explained with God and Science being hand in hand. This is my belief, and my opinion. I'm man enough to admit that. You insist on claiming your thoughts and ideas to be fact. Not your belief or opinion. Why is that? Can you not sleep at night knowing someone isn't going to concur?

And when we test the claims of believers, they fail.

Test what claims?

[Moai]

Sure you do. You have faith in man made science and you've admitted that. If you go in to have heart surgery, and they've asked your permission to try a new procedure that science guarantees will work.....you'd let them wouldn't you? That's faith......if you don't allow them, then you're a hypocrite to your, "faith".

 

Where to begin...

 

The faith I have in science is not the same as the faith you have in god. Not even close.

 

If I had heart trouble of course I would let the doctors do whatever they thought best. Wouldn't you? These men are board certified, for one thing, and I can examine the success rate of the procedure they think would work. In short, I can examine the evidence and come to an informed decision.

 

In fact, if there was a situation that only a radical, new procedure could repair with a very small chance of success, but it was my only option, I would happily go through with it. Even if it didn't work and I died, science would learn from it and move forward, and maybe my death would help the next person.

 

What other option would you suggest there is in any of these scenarios? Don't you go to the doctor? Are you suggesting that prayer would be more effective?

 

Read it again. I clearly stated that my faith IS NOT JUST for me, but for all who CHOOSE to believe. Just because I believe all others will be hell bound, (if they choose not to accept Christ as Saviour), doesn't mean the guy sitting next to me will. It is not my desire that they do of course, but there isn't anything I can do about that.

 

What? If the guy sitting next to you is a Muslim, he is going to hell, by your own admission. All Hindus, those who believe as Blue Tuesday does, Buddhists, adherents of Shinto, etc. are doomed to hell. Islam specifically states that anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus is going to hell. So your faith is diametrically opposed to theirs.

 

Not only that, you have specific ideas about morality based on your faith, and when legislated it effects others in the world as well.

 

As painful as it is, I have to accept that. You, however cannot.

 

I can, I just don't. I don't think that there is such a thing as hell, so I have no need of accepting that.

 

You ramblings on about how religion is destroying your world, or directly affecting you is proof to me that your own beliefs are shaken.Remotely true?

 

Nope. Not remotely. Because you accept things on no evidence, it seems that you cannot grasp that conclusions reached based on evidence are not so easily shaken. Do you wake up doubting the freezing temperature of water?

 

And religion isn't destroying MY world, it is destroying OUR world, and the world of my children and grandchildren. Not only that it is causing suffering for people I don't even know, but because they are people like me it bothers me.

 

Do you even watch TV? Listen to the radio? See billboards on your way to work? I'm talking about what is all around us that doesn't take a google search to find. Resources that our kids have access to whether or not they choose to have it.So.....since Jerry Falwell is a Christian and he spoke these words, you're saying that I must subscribe, and agree that is what indeed took place?

 

No, not necessarily. But he was a Christian, wasn't he? He reached the conclusions he did based on the Bible, right?

 

Why is he wrong and you right, then? You use the same book.

 

I wouldn't suggest that you accept gay clergy simply because Episcopalians do, for example. But you made a claim about Fundamentalism suggesting that it is misunderstood because of the media or something. That is patently false.

 

Nonsense.Sure....use a secular tool to explain a spiritual concept.....that'll go over well won't it? Good try though....Yes.....I do. It's my fact, and I have the proof through my own experiences for it to be true. I'm truly sorry that this isn't tangible enough for you to believe......but think about this..... if you do choose to go under a knife, (heart surgery above), using the confessions of a man of science, and choose to ignore the confessions of a spiritual man.....that's your loss, and perhaps your ignorance.

 

Well, I'll enjoy the rest of my life most probably. Are you denying that heart transplants work? Or bypasses? It is my sincere hope that you reconsider your position if you become seriously ill, if for no other reason than your family would miss you (at the very least.)

 

The reason that your assertions aren't tangible enough to believe is because all adherents of all faiths use the same evidence, they are all different, they are all just as certain. How can I make the correct determination if not by using evidence? If I accept your assertion that Jesus is Lord, and it turns out that the Koran is correct about all who believe such go to hell, I doomed myself. If I accept the Koran and Jesus really is Lord, I am doomed. If I don't accept Hinduism, I'll be reborn as a goat or something. If I don't honor my ancestors and pray to them, they will abandon me. And on and on and on.

 

You reject all those others quite easily, do you not?

 

I was attending Mormon services once, and a member relayed and anecdote. It seems that he was serving in Panama in the Army. He is devout, and so wears the special underwear that LDS members have under their clothes, as did a friend of his. There was a fire, and his friend was burned. However, where the undergarment was no flames penetrated. His arms and lower legs were scorched, but his torso and upper legs were fine. Am I to conclude that Mormonism is true because of this? Do you accept that, based on that story? Why or why not?

 

There isn't anything I can do about that.Yes, I believe that to be fact indeed.Not every other religion, and no, every other believer would not go to hell. If they are a believer, and know Christ as their Saviour, they will not perish. Maybe you should be more clear on your definition of, "believer"? Because to me, that's anyone who knows Christ as Saviour.I believe Christ is THE only way to God. Period. When people ask what denomination I am, I say, "Baptist".....simply because I attend a Baptist Church. Do I believe EVERYTHING my pastor or teacher preaches? No. I do not. Does that make me less of a Baptist? No, it does not.

 

No, it doesn't make you less of a Baptist. But it does make you less of a Catholic, or Muslim. My definition of "believer" is anyone who asserts a god or gods.

 

So don't think of me saying this religion is valid or not. It's the doctrine that Christ is THE way, THE truth, and THE light......no man, (or woman), comes to The Father but by Him that is the vital element.

 

Yep. I know. And that doctrine right there means that every other religion on the planet is a lie, and that all of those adherents will go to hell. Right?

 

You could be the grand pooh pa of the third church of the crecent moon.....I don't care.....if you know Christ as your Saviour....you'll be among those in heaven.......And here is the WHOLE CRUX of it Moai.

 

No offense, but are you really so ignorant as to think that Hindus accept Jesus? Or Muslims? They don't. In fact, most people on the planet don't. And even amongst other Christian faiths they do not assert what you do. That's why you go to a Baptist church and not a Catholic one.

 

Do Mormons go to hell? Why or why not? They believe in Jesus as Saviour, and they also believe in three different Heavens (terrestrial, telestial, and celestial, if memory serves), and believe in the Baptism of the dead. Are you saying that none of that stuff matters? If that is so, you are unique. amongst Baptists, that is certain. Don't forget, my father was a Baptist minister, so I am intimately familiar with their doctrine.

 

"I know it in my bones". This is good enough for you? I think not. You need evidence. You need tests. You need to tangibles to hold in your hand.....yet you cannot prove that God DOES NOT exist.

 

I don't have to prove that he doesn't exist. You have to prove he does. Evidence (or lack of, in this case) shows that there isn't one. It is certainly possible that I am wrong, but that possibility is so remote I lose zero sleep over it.

 

Bertrand Russel put it beautifully almost a century ago. It's called the Celestial Teapot.

 

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

 

"I know in my bones that He does exist. I've done a few of my own tests, and the way my heart if filled is tangible enough for me, yet my words and claims are dismissed. Why? Why can you feel it in your bones, even though you can't prove He doesn't exist, and I can feel it in my bones, even with my testimony, my filled heart, my experiences, my conversations with God that he does exist?"

 

I know it in my bones the same way I know that light travels at 186,000 miles per second. I arrived at that conclusion because of evidence.

 

The evidence that you claim to have is no different than that of a devout Muslim. Why do you reject his testimony? Why should I? He talks to god, too. He has done his own tests, too.

 

As I have written over and over, we both reject his "evidence" and do so quite easily. I am sure you don't give Islam a second thought--nor do I. But when I apply the exact same standard to your beliefs I don't get it, I am rejecting something real.

 

You don't have to prove Allah doesn't exist, do you? You don't have to prove Vishnu doesn't exist, or the various Aztec gods don't exist, do you (beyond that you cannot prove a negative)?

 

I'll tell you why. You can't stand it when someone disagrees with you, and dismisses you're claims.As a matter of FACT......I've lost TONS of sleep doubting that which is possible. What if I don't have it right? What if I'm wasting my time on earth being such a goodie 2 shoes? What if I should've been laughing with the sinners rather than crying with the saints?

 

I can stand it quite easily, actually. But that doesn't mean I turn away and accept it, especially when I can see it is so detrimental. And I am no tthe one claiming anything. I just reject the claims of others, when they are based on no evidence.

 

I don't lose any sleep about what you describe at all. Never.

 

I would also suggest that being a "goody-two shoes" is its own reward. The problem lies in the fact that some people think that being a "goody-two-shoes" means oppressing others, censoring art, destroying ancient sculpture, preventing two people from being together simply because they love a different way, and on and on. And maybe you don't do any of those things, and good for you if that is so. But billions of others do. And they do so because of what is written in ancient books and because of the same evidence that you use to determine where you will go when you die.

 

Sure......I've dwelled on these things many of times. Then I go back to Scripture, and I PRAY about these things. The Holy Spirit calms me. It doesn't mean the storm is gone, it comes and goes. However, I am calmed by the Holy Spirit to seek the truth and hide it in my heart.And now you should know that even my faith is shaken from time to time, and I'm intelligent enough to examine it over and over. What you can't accept is the fact that a smart man would disagree with you.

 

There are lots of smart people who disagree with me about all kinds of things, including religion. The intelligence of someone has nothing to do with the validity of their claims. There is evidence or there is not.

 

And while the Holy Spirit calms you, the spirit of Mohammad calms billions of others. How can that be, if Jesus is the right way? Are they really being calmed by Satan?

 

And I would expect that your faith would be shaken from time to time. Such is common amongst all forms of believers. Because I base my "beliefs" on evidence, my "faith" is never shaken. If more evidence comes in about a particular topic that demonstrates my current position to be wrong, I change my position. Happily. It happens all the time, and doesn't cause me the least bit of trouble.

 

Face it.And I say, IMO, that you wouldn't have, "lift" or, "tests" or, "tools" if God hadn't provided all of the neccessary elements before hand.

 

That is certainly possible, but since there is no need to postulate a deity, I don't. It's that simple. But even if that were so, that still wouldn't mean that the god who did it was Jehovah or Jesus. It could have been Zeus or Odin. Or many of them. If you can have one being that exists outside of space-time and is so powerful, why can't there be dozens, or even hundreds? It is possible that all of this is a simulation in some alien supercomputer, too. Who can say? We can come up with infinitely many explanations for such things all of which are equally plausible. But how do we determine which is correct? You guessed it: EVIDENCE. The Universe operates just as it would if there were no super-being, so why assert there is one?

 

If you suggest that god always existed, why can't the Universe have always existed? If everything requires a Creator, why doesn't the Creator?

 

It's not hard to understand that God and Science are synonymous. That EVERYTHING can be explained with God and Science being hand in hand. This is my belief, and my opinion. I'm man enough to admit that. You insist on claiming your thoughts and ideas to be fact. Not your belief or opinion. Why is that? Can you not sleep at night knowing someone isn't going to concur?Test what claims?

 

I sleep fine, actually. That's great that you think that god and science go hand in hand, but you make an assumption based on no evidence. Why is that god Jesus? Couldn't that god be Allah, or Thor? Why is it that science is proving Jesus to you, but Allah for others? There are websites that use scientific discovery to prove the Koran is the Word of God. How can this be, if science and god go hand in hand?

 

Also, the more we learn from science the smaller god gets, is that not so?

 

I don't claim my thoughts and ideas to be fact. When someone says that god-belief means more successful marriages, I look at the facts and lo and behold the reverse is true. That isn't my idea, that is what the evidence says. If someone says that god-belief makes people more moral I can look at that and lo and behold that is also false. I just accept that. I accept facts, they are not facts because I accept them.

 

These are demonstrable facts. You can look it up for yourself. If you have problems with the data, by all means show the flaws in the studies, or provide contrary evidence. I haven't seen any, but I'd be happy to look at it, if it exists.