Answered Prayer

[Love Hurts]

Well, if you believe that you can make leaves fall from trees with your mind you have bigger problems than me being mad at you.

 

And it isn't that it makes me mad, it is dangerous. People have taken family members off of life support or medication to demonstrate their faith in prayer, only to have that family member die.

 

 

 

See above.

 

 

 

Easy. Pray for something we would consider impossible. The Bible says that all prayers are answered in the affirmative, and that prayer moves mountains. Literally. Try it and see if it works.

 

Moving mountains takes faith… it’s not a joke or a test for a wizard.

Jesus does not perform for the non believer.

[Love Hurts]

Faith moves mountains... faith begins in a heart of a believer. All else fells.

[pureinheart]

Faith moves mountains... faith begins in a heart of a believer. All else fells.

 

Hi Moai,

 

In your OP I noticed the scales were very unbalanced, very extreme to make the point you wanted to make. I see bitterness that is deep rooted.

 

Concerning the "wrongs" of this world, such as starvation....there are many horrible reasons for this, all of which God has nothing to do with. I believe one major factor is greedy, evil governments who do not recognize God and starve and oppress their people for their own selfish gain.

 

It is difficult for those of us who reside in the US and other countries, where freedom is greater than oppression to truely understand the big picture of greed and control.

 

I have seen the miracles and much answered prayer that was orchastrated in such a way that it could ONLY be God. I also have been allowed to suffer for my own good or the good of others.

 

I have noticed a great deal of attack to those who believe in God and the things of God. This is a forum to communicate spirituality. Any reasonable and logical person who does not believe there is, or ever was "God" would certainly find a forum on this vast internet titled "there is no God nor spirituality", or an "I hate God" forum.

 

Now there is another factor as to why an atheist would argue on this forum....they are actually seeking truth, they are tired of "self".

[Moai]

Hi Moai,

 

In your OP I noticed the scales were very unbalanced, very extreme to make the point you wanted to make. I see bitterness that is deep rooted.

 

Would you care to give me an example of how the scales are unbalanced? You are incorrect in your assessment of my being bitter. I am quite hopeful, actually.

 

Concerning the "wrongs" of this world, such as starvation....there are many horrible reasons for this, all of which God has nothing to do with. I believe one major factor is greedy, evil governments who do not recognize God and starve and oppress their people for their own selfish gain.

If they do not "recognize" god, then god does have something to do with it, first off. And yes, governments use hunger as a weapon, sadly. People do bad things. I don't see believers queueing up in front of the Capital Building demanding we stop dealing with these "un-Godly" countries, do you?

 

By definition, god has everything to do with everything. He can either prevent suffering and doesn't, or he can't prevent it but would like to, or can't and doesn't want to. If there is an omnipotent super-being, the former MUST be true. Even if he could prevent it but chooses not to in order to teach a "lesson" or whatever, he is still choosing to do nothing.

 

Consider: I want to teach children that getting into a car with a stranger is a bad idea. So I kidnap a number of chidren and kill them, in hopes that other children will see that getting into a car with a stranger is dangerous. If I were to do this, I would be seen as one of the most evil people to ever live, and if I were to give my reasons at trial I would be labelled as crazy. Is that not so? BUt god does such things and he is benevolent????

 

And god, if one exists, does that every single day, and is seen as all-loving. Can you not see the dissonance is such as assertion? Weread that we, as humans are too small and cannot know the mind of god--which means, if that is true, we can't know if god is really evil or not. Yet it is asserted that god is good. We cannot know the mind of god, but we look around and using our own minds--inadequate for the task by the believers own admission--and decide that he is all good.

 

It is difficult for those of us who reside in the US and other countries, where freedom is greater than oppression to truely understand the big picture of greed and control.

It isn't that difficult at all, actually. I am aware of it, but I choose to be. Many people in the US don't care, or worry about other things. And such is their right, of course. Is it immoral to only worry about your family and nothing beyond that? I think so, but it is an open question.

 

I have seen the miracles and much answered prayer that was orchastrated in such a way that it could ONLY be God. I also have been allowed to suffer for my own good or the good of others.

Really. How do you know it could ONLY be god? If supernatural beings exist, how do you know there is only one? Couldn't Satan have performed this "miracle" in order to dupe you into thinking that HE is god, and therefore turn your worship to him? How do you know?

 

Moreover, what happened that was so miraculous? Did you witness something that defied the laws of physics? Did you see something fall up, or what? Or did something happen that seemed to you to be so far out of the realm of probability that it HAD to be god?

 

Allowing you to suffer for your own good, or the good of others is immoral. If you remove the suffering humans cause each other, virtually all suffering is essentially random.

 

I have noticed a great deal of attack to those who believe in God and the things of God. This is a forum to communicate spirituality. Any reasonable and logical person who does not believe there is, or ever was "God" would certainly find a forum on this vast internet titled "there is no God nor spirituality", or an "I hate God" forum.

As is typical, you are short sighted.

 

Lack of belief in god does not mean lack of spirituality, for one thing. I am sure that is anathema to you, as I seriously doubt that you have done much reading about spirituality beyond your own pre-supposed belief system. If you had, you would not make the assertion you do above.

 

I do not hate god, as god does not exist. To suggest so would be to suggest that I hate the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. There are a great many forums dedicated to atheism and such, and I visit those, too.

 

As a side note, on those very websites, often beleivers storm in, and using foul-language promise hell and damnation for forum members, wish us a horrible violent death and then leave as quickly as they came. I know not all believers are like that, but there are enough to suggest that belief in Christianity does not improve one's behavior to his fellow man.

 

Aren't there forums that are all about Jesus, how great he is, how awesome he is when he performs miracles? If all you want is blanket acceptance of your assertions, why don't you go post there?

 

I do not see a banner that says, "believers only" or anything like that here. Do you? Beyond that, this thread was started by me, and you are under no compulsion to respond. My position on god is just as valid as yours, if not more so because I at least respect the rules of evidence.

 

Now there is another factor as to why an atheist would argue on this forum....they are actually seeking truth, they are tired of "self".

I appreciate your amateur psychoanalysis, but you are far off the mark.

 

I actually do seek truth, and that is why I require evidence for things. You should, too. You'd be surprised how much it helps you in life.

 

I also notice that you do not address one single assertion of mine, you would rather discuss me and my reasons for what I do. I have found this to be common amongst believers. Why is that? I am being rhetorical, as I know that deep down you know you don't have any evidence for what you say, and so would rather discuss my motivations, as they are at least tangible.

 

I see a lot more dissatisfaction amongst believers than you do, perhaps. If the "truth" is so evident and you have a grasp of it, why must you meet once a week to reaffirm it? Why do so many who post here have so many crises of faith? And why so many different, often contradictory positions?

 

Many believers post here in the hopes of winning souls. They believe that their belief is the correct one, and that it will help others immeasurably if they believe, too. They quote Bible verses, they relate anecdotes about god moving in their lives, etc. That is certainly their right.

 

I think that dogmatic faith, that is to say faith without evidence and religions that quantify it, are an instrument of evil in the world. There are mountains of evidence to support this position.

 

Not only that, but looking at the world rationally and logically is a joyful experience, one I would like to share with everyone. I think that my belief system will make people happier--just like you do yours. The difference is that I can see the flaws in your position, and you cannot. I can see how your beliefs are dissonant and actually detrimental, and you cannot. But, perhaps another person will be able to remove their blinders of faith and see the world and Universe as it is, and experience the breathtaking wonder that comes with it.

 

Imagine this: I am a Fundamentalist Muslim. As such, I think that you are a servant of evil, and that you are working against Allah and his Prophet (pbuh). In fact, these forums are evil, as they allow women to post, and these women are obviously fraternizing with men they are not married to. In other areas, sex is freely discussed! The horror! It is clear that Allah will destroy Loveshack and punish those who post here. Allah be praised!

 

There are areas where people discuss recorded music! Blasphemy! And art! Blasphemy! The Holy Koran is very clear on such things, and they must, and will be destroyed.

 

How do you feel about that? Such a poster would be coming from a position of god-belief, just like you. As you go about deciding who these forums are for and who they aren't, would this person be allowed, or no? If not, why not?

 

The fact is, the web is a free virtual world, and if people residing here express their ideas, they are open to ciriticism. Religious ideas shouldn't get a free pass--nor should any others. Also, you are just as atheistic as I when it comes to most of them, I just go a bit further is all.

 

I would love to discuss my reasoning and perception of spirituality with you, if you'd like. It is my hope that you spend the same amount of time thinking about my reasoning as you do what you perceive as my motivations--then we will have something to discuss. Until then, you are just making assumptions on very little evidence, and that usually leads to bad conclusions. Your assessment of me is a case in point.

[Moose]

The fact is, the web is a free virtual world, and if people residing here express their ideas, they are open to ciriticism.

Then why don't you practice doing just that Moai? Instead of posting such comments as:

I appreciate your amateur psychoanalysis, but you are far off the mark.

You didn't appreciate anything this person said to you. This was your way of insulting the person who expressed a thought, you chewed it up, and spat it out.

 

You simply cannot read other opinions and thoughts without publicly dismissing them as false.

 

My guess is that the next time you visit this area of LS and you see my name as the last responder on these threads it'll drive you crazy.

I am being rhetorical, as I know that deep down you know you don't have any evidence for what you say

Case in point, you're just here to poke sticks at believers.......

[disgracian]

Let me break it down for you, Moose:

 

The fact is, the web is a free virtual world, and if people residing here express their ideas, they are open to ciriticism.

 

Which is what Maoi did. Nothing contradictory about it at all.

 

You and pureinheart, on the other hand, just attacked Maoi as usual. You make him the topic of your angst, while he deals primarily with the topic.

 

You have no moral high ground on this one.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moai]

Then why don't you practice doing just that Moai? Instead of posting such comments as:You didn't appreciate anything this person said to you. This was your way of insulting the person who expressed a thought, you chewed it up, and spat it out.

 

You simply cannot read other opinions and thoughts without publicly dismissing them as false.

 

Good that you notice my sarcasm, but I did read what was written and it is false, and I said so. Beyond that, whatever my motivation for posting is irrelvenat to the discussion of what I posted, yet that is rarely, if ever discussed.

 

My guess is that the next time you visit this area of LS and you see my name as the last responder on these threads it'll drive you crazy.Case in point, you're just here to poke sticks at believers.......

 

Doesn't drive me crazy in the least. It would be nice for you to address the subjects and arguments that I make instead of resorting to amateur psychoanalysis and ad hominems.

 

I would hope that you would eventually realize that it does not reflect well on you or your position when you do so.

 

And no, I am not just here to poke sticks at believers. But even if that was the reason, what's wrong with that? What is so special about your beliefs that you can go around asserting them and not have to defend them?

 

I notice that yet again you did not address the substance of my post. If my statement about you or any other believer being able to respond, why didn't you?

 

Lastly, it seems that you have trouble reading for meaning sometimes.

[Moose]

Let me break it down for you, Moose:

 

The fact is, the web is a free virtual world, and if people residing here express their ideas, they are open to ciriticism.

Yep. You're 110% correct. Let me remind you that it is also a "two way" street.

Which is what Maoi did. Nothing contradictory about it at all.

Please don't take offense to this. See, I feel this statement is false. Consider this.....the claim is that answered prayer(s) are actually laws of probability unfolding.

 

Even when references to scientific minds, evidence, and studies, are presented that state otherwise, the response we get to our criticism from Moai is STILL met with, "God doesn't exist", instead of, "It is my conclusion that God doesn't exist".

I did read what was written and it is false, and I said so.

Then why the need for the sarcascm? I'm just curious as to why you couldn't be civil with this person instead of insulting them? They've made a personal observation and came to a conclusion based on evidence.

 

Isn't that what you're asking from all of us do to? And if so.....instead of being so pompeous, why not respond with respect and gentleness? Oh wait....that's what us Christians are supposed to be doing. With that said, isn't it hypocritical of you to shove your, "truth" and "facts" in our faces?

Beyond that, whatever my motivation for posting is irrelvenat to the discussion of what I posted, yet that is rarely, if ever discussed.

You're kidding right? Everything presented to you has been ignored. Futhermore, this VERY statement shows that you do in fact have alternative motives besides absorbing other's views and opinions.

Doesn't drive me crazy in the least.

Taking the time to formulate then post replies in the middle of the night is a good indicator, (to me) of how much you're consumed with your, "agenda".

It would be nice for you to address the subjects and arguments that I make instead of resorting to amateur psychoanalysis and ad hominems.

I don't think I need to expand any further on the how you choose to ignore my responses, or those of other believers. Besides.....unless you have some credentials you're not sharing with us.....you are not in a position to claim any one of us as "amateur" in status.

 

Finally, you're just as guilty as the next guy for personally attacking one's posts.

I would hope that you would eventually realize that it does not reflect well on you or your position when you do so.

You don't have to lose sleep over this......really. Again, you're basing this upon your personal observations. Very much like your views on answered prayers. Had you read my posts and taken them to heart, you'd see the scientific evidence that supports prayer OVER the laws of probablilty. If you need a trip back....here it is: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1201327&postcount=132

 

Spite my efforts to show you my views and for you to read them for meaning....your claim is that:

Lastly, it seems that you have trouble reading for meaning sometimes.

So.....with all of that said.....I say God DOES exist. Can you.....or can you not live with that?

 

LET ME BREAK THIS DOWN FOR YOU,

 

I say that God does exist.

 

Do you see the distinction? The key word, or noun here is, "I".

 

You must be able to make that distinction for yourself or you're just as guilty for pushing your beliefs upon us, which, I believe is what you're totally against us doing.

 

So....can you? Or can you not?

[disgracian]

Even when references to scientific minds, evidence, and studies, are presented that state otherwise, the response we get to our criticism from Moai is STILL met with, "God doesn't exist", instead of, "It is my conclusion that God doesn't exist".

The absence of a little prefix that upsets you so much? People omit "in my opinion..." all the time because of redundancy. Even if he does think that it is fact, then by definition it's still his conclusion. He doesn't have to explicitly articulate it every time.

 

By the way, LonelyBird and others who are "on your side", so to speak, do this all the time and I've never seen you reprimand her for it. I doubt you ever have; it only gets your goat when Maoi does it which is quite revealing.

 

Maoi does at least put a lot of thought and reasoning into his posts though, so it makes me wonder why you choose to single him out.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

The absence of a little prefix that upsets you so much?

It has been expected from me, I feel it should be returned in kind. To do otherwise is disrespectful. That upsets me.

People omit "in my opinion..." all the time because of redundancy.

And some omit, (purposely), to provoke a response. You'll only need to look at the VERY first post on this thread.

He doesn't have to explicitly articulate it every time.

The subject at hand requires it. We aren't discussing how to change spark plugs in a Chevy here......

By the way, LonelyBird and others who are "on your side", so to speak, do this all the time and I've never seen you reprimand her for it.

Yeah....I've noticed this. I've also noticed that they get infractions for some of those posts.

 

Do you think that LonleyBird and these others, "on my side", are capable of refuting an intellect like Moai? If you've noticed, I rarely use scripture when debating opinions with him.

I doubt you ever have;

Let's see....."As is typical, you are short sighted.", or how about, "I appreciate your amateur psychoanalysis, but you are far off the mark." are the kind of responses you'd get from Moai....... How does it feel D?

 

Fact is there's this PM option here on LS. (I noticed you don't use yours. ) I've sent and received tons of them from and to fellow believers and exchanged ideas on how NOT to respond to those who challenge our faith. Whether they choose to do so isn't up to me.

Maoi does at least put a lot of thought and reasoning into his posts though, so it makes me wonder why you choose to single him out.

Because I've learned alot from him. Call it being selfish, but I gain alot reading Moai's posts, and I would hope that he gains from mine......eventually if not already....I wouldn't expect most people to understand that.

[Moai]

Yep. You're 110% correct. Let me remind you that it is also a "two way" street. Please don't take offense to this. See, I feel this statement is false. Consider this.....the claim is that answered prayer(s) are actually laws of probability unfolding.

 

Yes, answered prayer follows EXACTLY what we expect by probability. That is so easy to understand, yet you resist this simple fact. It is self-evident.

 

Even when references to scientific minds, evidence, and studies, are presented that state otherwise, the response we get to our criticism from Moai is STILL met with, "God doesn't exist", instead of, "It is my conclusion that God doesn't exist".

 

References to "scientific minds" is meaningless, first off. For example, there are many scientists whose work I admire who are also borderline Communists. Their work in their particualr fields is byeond reproach, but their politics are atrocious, in my view. And I disagree with them.

 

As far as your "evidence" goes, I did not dismiss it out of hand. I actually read the papers involved, the methodology used, and criticism from others in the field--if you want to call it that.

 

Consider: We have 30 people with cancer. We have ten who are prayerd for, ten who aren't, and ten who maybe are prayed for and maybe they aren't. In reality, you cannot select out someone who is not prayed for, can you? If we are conducting the study in Canada, say, but there is a church in Alabama praying for all cancer patients, what then?

 

Not only that, the main "study" that was done concluding that prayer works was discredited (and the woman who conducted the study eventually died of cancer, prayed for the whole way). You can read about it here: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/prayer.html?pg=1

 

Here is an article about another study that showed prayer is actually harmful: http://www.slate.com/id/2139373/nav/tap1/

 

Then why the need for the sarcascm? I'm just curious as to why you couldn't be civil with this person instead of insulting them? They've made a personal observation and came to a conclusion based on evidence.

 

A conclusion based on very little evidence and one that referred to me personally. I think I was showing restraint in only resorting to sarcasm.

 

Isn't that what you're asking from all of us do to? And if so.....instead of being so pompeous, why not respond with respect and gentleness? Oh wait....that's what us Christians are supposed to be doing. With that said, isn't it hypocritical of you to shove your, "truth" and "facts" in our faces?You're kidding right? Everything presented to you has been ignored.

 

What? I respond with respect until my psychological makeup is brought into things, and the substance of the post is ignored--just like you are doing right here. You would rather discuss me and my writing style then you would the facts, or present any evidence.

 

I am not shoving anything down anyone's throat. I examine what I see and provide my opinion, just as you do. What you describe as "evidence" isn't, as I have written time and again, and have shown that to be so. Show one example where I just rejected what you said out of hand. I don't argue by assertion, either.

 

I have not ignored any of it. I have looked at it and rejected it. Notice, though, it isn't just me who is rejecting your "evidence." Other believers on these boards reject your "evidence" too, and do so with less reason than I.

 

Futhermore, this VERY statement shows that you do in fact have alternative motives besides absorbing other's views and opinions.Taking the time to formulate then post replies in the middle of the night is a good indicator, (to me) of how much you're consumed with your, "agenda".

 

This paragraph is quite telling. Perhaps you arrive at your position of faith using the same reasoning. You know little to nothing about me, yet you claim that so many things are "telling."

 

What is my work schedule like? Have any idea? Nope.

 

Do you take into account the time zone I am in? Probably not.

 

Do I write out a response and then post it, or do I post on the fly, writing off the top of my head? Any idea? Nope.

 

Any clue how fast I can type? Nope. You have no idea how long it takes me to write these responses, yet you go ahead and jump to all sorts of conclusions. Go right ahead, but doing so says much more about you than it does me.

 

I have yet to read a new idea about spirituality or a new argument for god on any of these forums. Not one time. So what is there to absorb, huh?

 

I have also been quite clear that I think religion is a harmful force in the world. From that statement, I should think that my motives are crystal clear, as stated by me. I just did it again.

 

And what is with your obsession with the word "agenda"?

 

I don't think I need to expand any further on the how you choose to ignore my responses, or those of other believers. Besides.....unless you have some credentials you're not sharing with us.....you are not in a position to claim any one of us as "amateur" in status.

 

I have not ignored one of your responses, and actually stay on topic more than you do. This entire post about ME is off-topic, as it has nothing to do with prayer working or not. And I never once used the word amateur, claimed anyone or you as an amateur, or anything of the sort.

 

Are you reading what I write, or do you just scan my posts, make assumptions, and then take your preconceived notions and project them onto me? This is not the first time you have done this. Unlike you, I don't extrapolate from this and make blanket statements about your psychology, or what your "agenda" is, I just think it's weird.

 

Finally, you're just as guilty as the next guy for personally attacking one's posts.You don't have to lose sleep over this......really. Again, you're basing this upon your personal observations. Very much like your views on answered prayers. Had you read my posts and taken them to heart, you'd see the scientific evidence that supports prayer OVER the laws of probablilty. If you need a trip back....here it is: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1201327&postcount=132

 

Nope. I did read that response of yours, and provided a detailed refutation of it. You seem to think that if a man working in a scientific field uses the wrod "miracle" that means miracles exist, or if he assertes that he beleives in prayer that is evidence. It isn't, and I am not making up the rule that says so.

 

Spite my efforts to show you my views and for you to read them for meaning....your claim is that:So.....with all of that said.....I say God DOES exist. Can you.....or can you not live with that?

 

LET ME BREAK THIS DOWN FOR YOU,

 

I say that God does exist.

 

Do you see the distinction? The key word, or noun here is, "I".

 

You must be able to make that distinction for yourself or you're just as guilty for pushing your beliefs upon us, which, I believe is what you're totally against us doing.

 

So....can you? Or can you not?

 

I know you believe in god. I have no problems with that whatsoever. But in so claiming, I can ask what you "evidence" is, and why you arrived at the conclusions you did, can't I? Can you live with that?

 

I have no trouble with anyone expressing their beliefs. It doesn't bother me one bit if you want to post quotes form the Bible, or whatever you want. Assert that Jesus is lord all you want. Go crazy. I will just call you on it. Simple.

 

I would do the same to a Muslim, or a Wiccan, and have done so. You, on the other hand, ignore those posts and focus on mine, which is critical of the system of belief in general. Why is that, I wonder?

 

It seems that you CAN'T live with the fact that people out in the world don't just take your word for things--and they shouldn't.

 

As far as using pronouns goes, I was under the assumption that because my posts have my username at the beginning it was understood that "I" am the one expressing an opinion, and that "I" think these things, but I now see that isn't as obvious as I thought. Unless I am quoting, in which case I site where relevant. I thought that would also obviate teh need for "I" as well, but again, guess not.

[pricillia]

I would just like to say that it is nice to see this thread going on for as long as it has...

[Moose]

Yes, answered prayer follows EXACTLY what we expect by probability. That is so easy to understand, yet you resist this simple fact. It is self-evident.

I resist what you call fact because it doesn't fall in line with what I've experienced and studied. Self-evident = Moai-evident.

Not only that, the main "study" that was done concluding that prayer works was discredited

I read the article. I'm confused. Her studies proved that prayer heals time and time again. The very last sentence even leaves you hanging....."Not evidence of anything, but too close to just ignore, too close not to ponder." I would love to see the same study with more parameters....

 

As for the second article, I like some of Saletan's ideas. And I especially like his support on the use of bio fuels. The article doesn't give any stance on what is actually happening with prayer. It's a collection of, "what if's".....

A conclusion based on very little evidence and one that referred to me personally. I think I was showing restraint in only resorting to sarcasm

In that case.....thanks.....?

Other believers on these boards reject your "evidence" too, and do so with less reason than I.

Are these the PM's your receiving? Because I haven't seen this anywhere. Until I see that for myself, this is only here say.

 

And I'm sorry for the, "agenda" thing and accusing you for being, "ate up" so to speak.......perhaps it is your style that sets me off.

 

Now that I've read this:

I know you believe in god. I have no problems with that whatsoever. But in so claiming, I can ask what you "evidence" is, and why you arrived at the conclusions you did, can't I? Can you live with that?

yes, I can live with this. I also realize that you won't answer mine, and that suits me fine.

 

I'm going to start another thread, we can exchange each other's evidence there.

 

Thanks

[pricillia]

Moose and Moai...

 

You both have such good points of view....

 

I like reading your replies to each other, and your attention to detail for the both of you is great.

 

I would just like to say that we are all connected in one way or another.

 

God or no God, that goes for all creatures.

[Moose]

Moose and Moai...

 

You both have such good points of view....

 

I like reading your replies to each other, and your attention to detail for the both of you is great.

 

I would just like to say that we are all connected in one way or another.

 

God or no God, that goes for all creatures.

Thank you very much pricillia! I agree.

 

It's not very evident in my posts, but I do enjoy and more so appreciate Moai's thoughts.

[pricillia]

Thank you very much pricillia! I agree.

 

It's not very evident in my posts, but I do enjoy and more so appreciate Moai's thoughts.

 

 

Your welcome!

[Moai]

I resist what you call fact because it doesn't fall in line with what I've experienced and studied. Self-evident = Moai-evident.

 

Well, no, I don'tthink that is "Moai-evident" but I do like that term!

 

I read the article. I'm confused. Her studies proved that prayer heals time and time again. The very last sentence even leaves you hanging....."Not evidence of anything, but too close to just ignore, too close not to ponder." I would love to see the same study with more parameters....

 

They did. She was guilty of data mining and falsfying results. Ironically, she died of brain cancer, prayed for the entire time.

 

As for the second article, I like some of Saletan's ideas. And I especially like his support on the use of bio fuels. The article doesn't give any stance on what is actually happening with prayer. It's a collection of, "what if's".....In that case.....thanks.....?

 

The study itself is referenced there. I couldn't find the Washington Post article, as it has been taken down. The point, though, is that the "best" study done so far has shwon that prayer does nothing, and that the individuals prayed for actually got WORSE. The author then analyzes the different arguments that people use to dismiss this study in favor of their preconceived belief. If I can find a link to the actual paper again I'll post it.

 

Are these the PM's your receiving? Because I haven't seen this anywhere. Until I see that for myself, this is only here say.

 

No, it is from posts on the threads. For example, lonleybirdis probably closest to you as fara s belief goes. That is all well and good, but there are others who reject Jesus but not magical spirituality, and yet you are not critical of them--even though what they write dooms them to hell. Is that not so? Also, they reject your evidence just as I do.

 

And I'm sorry for the, "agenda" thing and accusing you for being, "ate up" so to speak.......perhaps it is your style that sets me off.

 

That's cool. I am sorry if I set you off, that isn't generally my intention. Let me say here that I in no way mean to impugn your intelelct during these exchanges. I don't think you're stupid, I have never thought you are stupid, and if my style gives you that impression I apologize without reservation.

 

In point of fact, you seem to me to be on the more rational, intelligent side of the believer spectrum, no matter how irrational I think belief is. Evidence or no, you give the impression that at least you know WHY you believe as you do, and that gives you a leg up on some as far as I am concerned.

 

Now that I've read this:yes, I can live with this. I also realize that you won't answer mine, and that suits me fine.

 

I'm going to start another thread, we can exchange each other's evidence there.

 

Thanks

 

I'd be happy to anser anything that you post. I have read every link you have posted, and I have learned a great deal from them. The link to a previous post you made was particularly informative, and I still visit some of the sites I came across in my reading. I gave a detailed rebuttal of that post, too, in which I mentioned that. If I wasn't clear then, let me be clear now about the fact that I learn from your posts, too, especially when you reference sites that detail your view.

 

I look forward to exchanging thoughts with you on your new thread.