Answered Prayer

[Moose]

For someone who says they don't believe in God......you sure get a burr under your saddle when others profess his existance.

 

More over, you seem to hold Satan in higher regards:

There is a being called god. There is a being called Satan.

You can't believe in one, and not the other......

 

None of your posts can shake me....

[Moai]

I have enjoyed following this thread... lots of interesting opposing points of view...

 

Just out of curiosity Moai, why do you seem so against... GOD..

 

I personally don't care either way... but you do seem quite pissed at the entire religion thing.

 

I'll try to be as brief as possible. I am not angry at god, as thre is no such thing, but I am angry at religious faith and the results of it.

 

The reason I care is because I care about people, and religion has caused and is causing a great deal of suffering. There are many ways that humans use to separate "us" from "them" but religion seems to be the favorite, and it is the one for which there is no evidence at all. Right now people are killing each other because they read the wrong book, or read the right book but interpret it incorrectly.

 

These books and ideas go back to a time when men thought that the Earth was flat, that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and that demons made people sick. They thought that witches really existed and had power. And on and on.

 

I read a great description of this recently. Imagine we found a man from 1400 frozen in ice somewhere, and we were able to thaw him out. If we were to ask him about the world, he would hold ideas as true that would embarrass an elementary school child. Many of those ideas I list above. But if you ask him about religion, he would give answers just like believers today would.

 

These irrational beliefs are like an albatross around our collective necks, preventing us from making rational decisions about our world. The Bible says man has dominion over the Earth. So why worry about global warming? God will take care of it.

 

22% of Americans believe that Jesus is returning definitely in the next 50 years, and another 22% think that he probably is. That is 44% of the population that don't need to make plans for the world beyond that time. Or ever, really, as they will vanish in the Rapture.

 

There are men out there who think that in the next world they will get all they desire from Allah because they were faithful, and were martyrs for him. It is only a matter of time before men like this get WMD's and the means to deliver them anywhere in the world.

 

Stem-cell research is our best hope for alleviating a great deal of suffering, but it is banned in the US because of beliefs about the "soul" for which there is no evidence. People alive now and suffering are less valuable than 150 cells in a Petri dish.

 

We have a vaccine that can prevent many types of cervical cancer. But we can't give that to all girls, because it may cause them to engage in premarital sex. Better they die a lingering death.

 

I could go on, but that is what is happening in our world right now. If we are going to survive, we must throw off the shackles of these Iron Age superstitions.

[Moai]

For someone who says they don't believe in God......you sure get a burr under your saddle when others profess his existance.

 

You bet. God belief in most cases is not harmless. Remember Love Hurts' little anti-gay rant? Where do you think that she gets the idea that homosexuality is wrong? From her faith in her book.

 

There are laws in fifteen states that make it illegal for two MARRIED people to engage in non-procreative sex acts. Why? Because of what men 2,000 years ago thought about such things.

 

More over, you seem to hold Satan in higher regards:You can't believe in one, and not the other......

 

No, I don't believe in either. I capitalize one because it is a proper name. I capitalize Jesus, Paul, Steve, Gary, and Fluffy, too. If I were to use Jehovah I'd capitalize that, too.

 

None of your posts can shake me....

 

Exactly the point. Hold on to those beliefs in the face of all reason. There is no evidence for them, and the ideas that you derive from them actually hurt people, but nothing will shake your faith!

 

And people refer to faith as a good thing...*sigh* We're doomed...

 

I am not dogmatic about anything, save the need for evidence. When evidence comes in that shows any position I hold to be wrong, I change my position. For you, no such evidence is possible.

[Moai]

All you doing here is to dig toilet or negative.........and crash people's hope, how moral is that?

Isn't that pride and self-righteousness?

Did ant make human being? can an ant judge human being?

 

What is so special about these people's hope? The Universe doesn't guarantee hope, or happiness. There is this little bugaboo called "The Truth" and if it is uncomfortable, so be it.

 

Beyond that, it isn't as if these beliefs exist in a vacuum and are harmless. Faith is like ripples on a pond, and these ripples affect virtually everything.

 

And it isn't pride and self-righteousness. It is reason and evidence. I am fully aware that there are things I don't understand. Can you say the same? Moreover, you constantly insist that you interpret the Bible correctly and others don't. isn't that pride and self-righteousness? You blanket yourself in false humility, all the while looking at others believing you will go to Heaven and them Hell.

 

I am not sure what that ant thing means.

[dropdeadlegs]

Moai,

 

I happen to agree with a lot of what you post. Without going into my beliefs about God, a lack of God, and especially prayer, which is where this started, I have one question for you. (Whether I believe in God or not, it makes no difference, I capitalize the word out of respect for those who believe.)

 

Why do you feel the need to refute the beliefs of others?

 

I ask because I don't see it as being any different than those who preach and "bear witness" to their beliefs/religion.

 

Why can't we all just believe what we want and let others be? Or is this a debate? (I know many who enjoy a good debate.) I doubt that you are into converting people, so what is the point?

[Storyrider]

Prayer is just a way of loving God. He gave us words and thought. We're the only ones on Earth who have it.

 

We use those gifts to love Him back.

[Moai]

Moai,

 

I happen to agree with a lot of what you post. Without going into my beliefs about God, a lack of God, and especially prayer, which is where this started, I have one question for you. (Whether I believe in God or not, it makes no difference, I capitalize the word out of respect for those who believe.)

 

Why do you feel the need to refute the beliefs of others?

 

Because these beliefs of others directly affect my life, and the world I live in. They are dangerous, irrational, and immoral.

 

I ask because I don't see it as being any different than those who preach and "bear witness" to their beliefs/religion.

 

The difference is I am not advancing anything. Believers claim to know that god exists, that the Bible (or any other holy book) is The Word Of God, etc. They make claims, so I am asking for evidence. If there is no evidence, the position should be abandoned.

 

Why can't we all just believe what we want and let others be? Or is this a debate? (I know many who enjoy a good debate.) I doubt that you are into converting people, so what is the point?

 

I wouldn't call it converting people, but I do hope that people would become more rational. And yes, it is a debate.

 

I am all for letting others be. But believers do not agree. Their belief leads them to make decisions about culture and society that directly affect others.

 

I was a believer once, and I am not now. I was convinced. I convinced my sister, who is now getting pretty good at spotting irrational thought and logical fallacies herself. My roommate was a moderate believer, and recently mentioned to me that he has lost what little belief he has. I don't go around beating people over the head with it, but when it comes up I am honest about how I feel, and why. I, my sister, and my roommate are much happier now than before. My roommate and I had a nice talk about it last night, in fact.

 

Every little bit helps.

[Moose]

Where do you think that she gets the idea that homosexuality is wrong?

Well....I don't know about you, but tell you what let's just fill the world with nothing BUT homosexuals, and see how far we get??

There are laws in fifteen states that make it illegal for two MARRIED people to engage in non-procreative sex acts.

What? With each other? Can you expand on that? Where did you get this information from?

No, I don't believe in either.

Well, you sure do use alot of references towards Him for an unbeliever:

In your above example, god did what he planned regardless of what you asked for. That's because god made a deal with Satan to mess with Job. God making his own son suffer because of something someone else did (Adam) is immoral, for one thing. They believe that because it is in the book that god wrote. I didn't write it, god did.

I could go on and on and on, and on.....BUT, you get my point!...

 

I know what your agenda is......and like everyone else who's tried to convince the world my God doesn't exist, you will fail......and miserably.

 

I'm not even through with you....oh.....and by the way...neither is God.....

[a4a]

Well....I don't know about you, but tell you what let's just fill the world with nothing BUT homosexuals, and see how far we get??

 

 

What? With each other? Can you expand on that? Where did you get this information from?.....

 

I would love to increase the homosexual population....... the hair, theater, music..... oh my things would be bright and fun.

 

BTW I know some gay people with kids! :eek: If that is what you are referring to..... there was a recent Dateline (or similar news show) showing gay youngsters under the age of 7 years..... non gender conformity.... nothing wrong with it, and most know they are gay before they are sexual.... so god must have made em that way.

 

As for illegal marital/ opposite sexual acts :

 

2003 sodomy laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States

[DutchGuy]

Well....I don't know about you, but tell you what let's just fill the world with nothing BUT homosexuals, and see how far we get??

 

The same can be said for only men, only women, only seniors, handicapts and so on.

Kind of fascist, isn't it?

[Moai]

Well....I don't know about you, but tell you what let's just fill the world with nothing BUT homosexuals, and see how far we get?

 

What does that have to do with anything? Homosexuality being illegal doesn't keep people from practicing it, nor would legalizing it make everyone suddenly homosexual. Homosexuality is found throughout nature. It occurs naturally in humans. Who suggested that everyone is gay, or wants to be, or anything of the sort?

 

Do you feel that way about oral sex? Let's all just have oral sex and see how far we get? Just because an orgasm doesn't reult in a pregnancy doesn't make it evil or immoral, or bad. Or against society somehow.

 

What? With each other? Can you expand on that? Where did you get this information from?

 

My local library. Did you know you can look up the laws of the US and individual states any time you want? Pretty cool.

 

In Lawrence v. Texas, sodomy laws were deemed to be unconstitutional. That does not stop individual states from trying to enforce them, or rewrite them to make them so.

 

Virginia's Law (I quote the relevant passage): If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony, except as provided in subsection B.

 

People are still being arrested for this behavior, and it is a felony.

 

Well, you sure do use alot of references towards Him for an unbeliever: I could go on and on and on, and on.....BUT, you get my point!...

 

Actually no, I don't. We are talking about faith and god-belief, so of course I mention the concept.

 

I know what your agenda is......and like everyone else who's tried to convince the world my God doesn't exist, you will fail......and miserably.

 

Yes, I have an agenda. That is not a bad thing, nor is "agenda" a bad word. And FYI, most of the world doesn't think that your god exists. They have other gods, and their don't exist, either. And I don't have to convince the world god doesn't exist, it is up to you to convince the world he does. SO far, through fear and ignorance you have done a great job of getting people to accept it, but as time goes on god gets smaller and smaller.

 

I'm not even through with you....oh.....and by the way...neither is God.....

 

Nice that you speak for him. No offense, but I would think that if god is using you to speak to me he'd come up with something better than your statement about homosexuality above.

 

I am not sure what to make of the above. Am I supposed to be scared or something? I'm not. Nor will I ever be. I am not afraid of things that don't exist. You may as well tell me that the Boogyman is going to get me.

[Moai]

Prayer is just a way of loving God. He gave us words and thought. We're the only ones on Earth who have it.

 

We use those gifts to love Him back.

 

How do you know we are the only ones with words? We don't understand whale squeaks, but that doesn't mean they aren't words. And while animals don't think like we do, that doesn't mean they don't think.

 

Fish breathe underwater, so god gave them that gift to love him back.

 

How come we don't love Zeus back anymore? Or Thor? Or Ra? how come those gods were worshiped closer to the onset of language, and we don't worship them anymore? Did they give us the gift and we abandoned them?

 

Lastly, the Bible disagrees with your attitude about prayer. I'll repost the passages if you'd like.

[ruby_gloom]

I don't post nearly as much on these forums as I read them because I don't think it's necessary. Reading all of these different ideas and points of view are interesting, though.

 

As someone already said, your thoughts are very interesting to read, Moai, and they usually offer interesting perspectives. Perhaps they are not very creative or original, but that doesn't make them any less interesting to read about.

 

However, it seems that you are with a vengeance to get all of those unholy believers. You are just as fervent and zealous for the atheism you proclaim and profess as are those fervent and zealous believers (christians, catholics, jews, et al) you come on here to try to debunk.

 

It is here when you become no different than they, really. Personally, I honestly and truly do not care for other's beliefs; everyone can and should believe as they chose, bearing in mind that not all else will agree, and that because of that, their beliefs should be believed but not imposed if they will cause secondary or tertiary harm to others.

 

Given that, it must be of no surprise, then, that I enjoy hearing about other people's beliefs. However, when it comes to the point of trying to shove their religion or belief--whether it be christianity, catholicism or atheism--down my throat, it's not longer a fruitful discussion but a form of dictatorship.

 

You started out with wonderfully written fruitful discussion and downgraded to preaching your rightness in atheism ad nauseam, and that's unfortunate.

[Diamonds&Rust]

What does that mean? The Bible says very specific things about prayer. I didn't write it, god did. I don't believe any of it, but it is there, you can read it for yourself. I fail to see how that is "Fundamentalist Logic".

 

If you fail to see how that's fundamentalist logic, I don't know how to better explain it to you. Both the attitude that "god wrote the bible" and the attitude that all passages should be taken literally are beliefs held by a vocal minority of Christians, and using their same logic to disprove their logic is not impressive.

 

In order for you actually to understand what I'm saying, which I'm not sure is your aim, but if that's what you want to do, you can't define prayer as a tool for mountain-moving, unless the purpose of this thread is "prayer doesn't work the way fundamentalists think it does," in which case, I unceremoniously agree.

 

The fact is that there are people out there who take "sacred" books literally.

Okay. That's stupid of them. What's your point? What does it have to do with the many people who get something out of prayer without being stupid?

 

I assume that you believe that god answers prayer as well. If that is so, how does he do it, and why didn't he write about it in the Bible?

My argument is not that God answers prayers. It's that prayer is not harmful, nor is it about treating God like a holy vending machine.

 

As for why he didn't "write about it in the Bible," I am certain God didn't write the Bible, as are most Christians I've encountered.

 

Believers make the claim that god answers prayer. The evidence they provide is thin at best, and the results of said prayer are just what we would expect by probability. Therefore, we can conclude that prayer doesn't do anything.

 

It's clear by your initial language that this post is simply about rhetorical masturbation, like "I know everything. First I will deal with prayer, watch..."

 

If you really made an effort to understand prayer, you would realize that there is no reason to provide evidence for one's belief. That's why it's called faith.

 

Sure, faith is unreasonable. That's not a very astute claim. From there, it's shaky logic and extreme examples that delivers you to "Faith is harmful" or "Faith is wrong."

 

Do they? Really? It would seem that you think that if I shoot someone and then hold their hand while they die I am doing something good and noble.

 

Right, because of all the evil nuns who travel across Africa with HIV-filled syringes and stab people.

 

Missionaries don't claim to be god, but they claim to represent him. And the act toward others based on their interpretation of what god wants, just like you are doing now. And people die because of it. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but it is a fact.

 

Condoms help stop the spread of AIDS, they do nothing to improve the condition of people already infected, as missionaries I have worked with extensively do.

 

Oh, am I taking it out of context? Yeah, that must be it.

It is it.

 

You seem generally unconcerned with anything but seeing the words you type appear on screen. POSTDATA is pretty exciting, yeah?

 

Any sort of dogmatic thinking results in the same thing. Religion is the most popular one, by far.

Dogmatic anti-theism is quite prevalent as well.

 

And I am not ignoring the "marriage" of religion and politics at all. In fact, that is exactly what I am talking about, in a larger sense.

No, you're taking historical events that have social, economic, and political causes and pretending that they are entirely due to religious beliefs.

 

The onus is on believers to prove god exists.

Can you prove love exists?

[Storyrider]

Fish breathe underwater, so god gave them that gift to love him back.

 

Exactly.

[Moai]

If you fail to see how that's fundamentalist logic, I don't know how to better explain it to you. Both the attitude that "god wrote the bible" and the attitude that all passages should be taken literally are beliefs held by a vocal minority of Christians, and using their same logic to disprove their logic is not impressive.

 

There is a difference between logic and a position. Fundamentalists take the position that the Bible is literally true. If that is so, I can examine the Bible and compare it to the world around me, as well as how something like prayer works, and make a decision as to the veracity of their statement. That is all I am doing. I am not "using their logic" as you put it. There is only one "logic." Something is logical or it isn't.

 

In order for you actually to understand what I'm saying, which I'm not sure is your aim, but if that's what you want to do, you can't define prayer as a tool for mountain-moving, unless the purpose of this thread is "prayer doesn't work the way fundamentalists think it does," in which case, I unceremoniously agree.

 

Then how does it "work"? What is it for? Why does the Bible say that it works one way, but you think it works another?

 

It should have been clear in my first post that prayer as a tool for mountain moving was what I was examining, but as all threads do it morphed a little.

 

Okay. That's stupid of them. What's your point? What does it have to do with the many people who get something out of prayer without being stupid?

 

I didn't say that they were stupid. Allow me to take your words out of my mouth and say that just because someone believes something stupid it does not follow that they themselves are stupid.

 

And what do these other, non-Fundamentalist types get out of prayer, if it isn't the hope that god will intercede for them?

 

My argument is not that God answers prayers. It's that prayer is not harmful, nor is it about treating God like a holy vending machine.

 

As for why he didn't "write about it in the Bible," I am certain God didn't write the Bible, as are most Christians I've encountered.

 

Prayer itself may not be harmful, but the belief that leads to prayer is. If god did not inspire the Bible, then who did? And why read it in the first place?

 

This is one area where the Fundamentalists are on the money. All of the Bible MUST be true, or none of it is. If Adam and Eve did not eat from the Tree Of Knowledge and thus commit original sin, there is no reason for Jesus, and therefore he wasn't who he claimed to be, that is, the Son Of God.

 

If the Bible is just a metaphorical book that maybe we can learn from or maybe we can't, that we have to take into account the times in which it was written in order to understand it, and on and on, then what good is it? There are books that are better written and deal with more substance than the Bible does.

 

It's clear by your initial language that this post is simply about rhetorical masturbation, like "I know everything. First I will deal with prayer, watch..."

 

I don't know everything, nor did I claim to. You really seem to enjoy putting your words in my mouth, huh? That said, I am not an idiot, and I can examine claims pretty well. I have also read a great many others who know more than I, but I understand what they write, I internalize it, and come up with my own ideas.

 

You claim that you know everything about the Bible. I posted two instances where the Bible is quite clear that prayer IS for mountain moving, etc. Why have you not explained those passages, if you know so much?

 

If you really made an effort to understand prayer, you would realize that there is no reason to provide evidence for one's belief. That's why it's called faith.

 

Faith in things for which there is no evidence is dangerous. And there is very definitely a reason. I have posted a few examples earlier, but someone's faith affects how they perceive the world.

 

Sure, faith is unreasonable. That's not a very astute claim. From there, it's shaky logic and extreme examples that delivers you to "Faith is harmful" or "Faith is wrong."

 

Because you say so? It IS harmful. Look at Heaven's Gate. Look at Jonestown. Look at the honor killings that happen almost daily in Muslim countries. Look at their reaction to a series of cartoons, and the fact that not one newspaper in the US had the guts to reprint them. Others' fanaticism makes appeasers cower, and their power grows, until the Dark Ages have returned.

 

Right, because of all the evil nuns who travel across Africa with HIV-filled syringes and stab people.

 

No, but they know that condoms would greatly reduce the spread of AIDS, yet they say nothing about them, let alone hand them out.

 

Condoms help stop the spread of AIDS, they do nothing to improve the condition of people already infected, as missionaries I have worked with extensively do.

 

Yes, they do. they can keep someone who is already infected from giving it to someone else. Better to see more and more in the clinics, then?

 

By your thinking, we should not inoculate for small pox, because the vaccine does nothing for those who have it already.

 

 

It is it.

 

You seem generally unconcerned with anything but seeing the words you type appear on screen. POSTDATA is pretty exciting, yeah?

 

It would be, if you could actually show that I have taken those passages out of context, but we both know that I didn't.

 

Dogmatic anti-theism is quite prevalent as well.

 

Really? There is nothing dogmatic about atheism. It is simply non-belief. When people start making claims without evidence (as you do above), one examines the claims.

 

I am certainly open to any evidence for a super-being. Too bad there isn't any.

 

No, you're taking historical events that have social, economic, and political causes and pretending that they are entirely due to religious beliefs.

 

I am not pretending. Where do these "social" reason stem if not from religion?

 

Can you prove love exists?

 

Sure. Why is it that believers think this is such a problem, or that it is such a great question? Religion has had political implications now and in the past. It has had economic implications as well. In order to defend your moderate faith, you must separate the faith of extremists from their actions, which is not only foolish, it is wrong.

 

If you are correct, the Dominionist movement in the US has nothing to do with religion. Is that your position?

[Moai]

I don't post nearly as much on these forums as I read them because I don't think it's necessary. Reading all of these different ideas and points of view are interesting, though.

 

As someone already said, your thoughts are very interesting to read, Moai, and they usually offer interesting perspectives. Perhaps they are not very creative or original, but that doesn't make them any less interesting to read about.

 

That's about as backhanded a compliment as I have ever received. Thanks?

 

However, it seems that you are with a vengeance to get all of those unholy believers. You are just as fervent and zealous for the atheism you proclaim and profess as are those fervent and zealous believers (christians, catholics, jews, et al) you come on here to try to debunk.

 

Yep. I am alarmed and saddened that the US is 21st in the world in science and math. I am saddened that only 14% of the US population accepts evolution. I could go on, but if you actually look at the antecedents of faith and the technology that the faithful can get theirs hands on, we are in a state of emergency.

 

It is here when you become no different than they, really. Personally, I honestly and truly do not care for other's beliefs; everyone can and should believe as they chose, bearing in mind that not all else will agree, and that because of that, their beliefs should be believed but not imposed if they will cause secondary or tertiary harm to others.

 

I also agree in the freedom of the human mind. But, if someone believes something based on zero evidence, they should be shown that to be the case. Moreover, these beliefs do harm to others all the time. How many teens kill themselves because of their sexuality every year (sexuality deemed "Evil" or "unnatural" for no good reason)? How many women will get cervical cancer for lack of a vaccine? How many people must send money to Benny Hinn and his ilk before it is harmful?

 

Given that, it must be of no surprise, then, that I enjoy hearing about other people's beliefs. However, when it comes to the point of trying to shove their religion or belief--whether it be christianity, catholicism or atheism--down my throat, it's not longer a fruitful discussion but a form of dictatorship.

 

How am I shoving anything down anyone's throat? I am not the one making claims, I am answering them. Others say there is a god. They list reasons why they believe that, give what they see as evidence, etc. I just examine it, and ask questions. Why does religion get a pass?

 

And these believers who believe one thing are also rejecting all the others. By claiming to be a Christian, you are also rejecting Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism--every other religion on the planet. I do too, I just reject one more.

 

Everyone can believe what they like--at least in the largely secular West.

 

By the way, Catholicism is a Christian religion.

 

You started out with wonderfully written fruitful discussion and downgraded to preaching your rightness in atheism ad nauseam, and that's unfortunate.

 

I am only answering those who responded to me, as I am you now. If there is a direction that you would like to take the thread, post away and we'll discuss that.

 

Would you rather I let comments go to the wayside and forge ahead in a way that makes you feel comfortable?

[Diamonds&Rust]

There is a difference between logic and a position. Fundamentalists take the position that the Bible is literally true. If that is so, I can examine the Bible and compare it to the world around me, as well as how something like prayer works, and make a decision as to the veracity of their statement.

Plenty of prayerful people do not take the Bible literally, is my point. Using a fundamentalist approach to Biblical scholarship to illustrate your point that indeed, prayer has not moved any mountains, is not an effective argument against prayer as a whole.

 

This is one area where the Fundamentalists are on the money. All of the Bible MUST be true, or none of it is. If Adam and Eve did not eat from the Tree Of Knowledge and thus commit original sin, there is no reason for Jesus, and therefore he wasn't who he claimed to be, that is, the Son Of God.

The Bible is not a book. The Bible is many books, all with different audiences, writers, purposes, and messages. The Creation Myth, covered in Genesis 1 and 2, is not supposed to be a transcript of security footage from Eden. In fact, they're two divergent stories from two different traditions. Taking them as fact ignores the purpose of mythology. The fact that neither story actually happened doesn't negate their value, at least not to me, nor does it follow that there was no Christ.

 

You claim that you know everything about the Bible.

 

Uhh.... "You really seem to enjoy putting your words in my mouth, huh?"

 

I posted two instances where the Bible is quite clear that prayer IS for mountain moving, etc. Why have you not explained those passages, if you know so much?

Because they're not relevant to the discussion of prayer's effectiveness, I'm not a fundamentalist, so I don't treat the Bible as a giant how-to book.

 

You can start another thread if you want scriptural interpretation, mine or otherwise, of Biblical passages that you know very little about. I just doubt that you're interested.

 

Look at Heaven's Gate. Look at Jonestown. Look at the honor killings that happen almost daily in Muslim countries. Look at their reaction to a series of cartoons, and the fact that not one newspaper in the US had the guts to reprint them. Others' fanaticism makes appeasers cower, and their power grows, until the Dark Ages have returned.

Prayer is not a fanatical belief or practice, at least not for most.

 

 

No, but they know that condoms would greatly reduce the spread of AIDS, yet they say nothing about them, let alone hand them out.

This is because they are morally opposed to birth control. A backwards view indeed, but it's not their fault AIDS is spreading across Africa, and it doesn't negate the value of the medical care they do provide.

 

By your thinking, we should not inoculate for small pox, because the vaccine does nothing for those who have it already.

 

No. I never said that condoms shouldn't be handed out in Africa. I merely said that just because an organization is opposed to handing out condoms doesn't mean they're doing harm. No one forces them to go help people in Africa. They're free to do so however they want to, and they do much good in spite of their backwards views on birth control.

 

Sure.

Oh really? You believe that love exists?

Where is your evidence for this claim?

 

By claiming to be a Christian, you are also rejecting Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism--every other religion on the planet.

This is not always true. I claim to be a Christian, and do not reject Islam, Hinduism, or most other religions.

[Moai]

Plenty of prayerful people do not take the Bible literally, is my point. Using a fundamentalist approach to Biblical scholarship to illustrate your point that indeed, prayer has not moved any mountains, is not an effective argument against prayer as a whole.

 

Why not? Another assertion with no evidence.

 

The point about prayer is that believers use answered prayer as evidence that their beliefs are valid.

 

The Bible is not a book. The Bible is many books, all with different audiences, writers, purposes, and messages. The Creation Myth, covered in Genesis 1 and 2, is not supposed to be a transcript of security footage from Eden. In fact, they're two divergent stories from two different traditions. Taking them as fact ignores the purpose of mythology. The fact that neither story actually happened doesn't negate their value, at least not to me, nor does it follow that there was no Christ.

 

So you say. There are millions of believers who disagree with you. Why should I listen to you and not them? Why should I not study the Vedas instead? Or the Koran?

 

I am aware that Genesis 1 and 2 are different. I am also aware of the many ways believers try to make them agree, or at least not outright contradict.

 

The fact remains that the Bible is either the Word of God, or it isn't.

 

I am also aware that it was written by different men at different times. That is irrelevant, as all these men claim to be inspired by god to have written them.

 

Uhh.... "You really seem to enjoy putting your words in my mouth, huh?"

 

Yep. Like me calling people stupid, etc. Also, since you claim that I don't know anything about the Bible (which is demonstrably false), it follows that you claim to.

 

Because they're not relevant to the discussion of prayer's effectiveness, I'm not a fundamentalist, so I don't treat the Bible as a giant how-to book.

 

Fine. You have yet to make one assertion as to how prayer does work. You accuse me of using strawman arguments, yet I don't recall addressing any of the opening post to you.

 

If you have a different idea of how prayer works, great. How does it work? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

You can start another thread if you want scriptural interpretation, mine or otherwise, of Biblical passages that you know very little about. I just doubt that you're interested.

 

Why? You can do it right here. I await your answer to the passages I quoted several posts back. Would you like me to repost them?

 

Prayer is not a fanatical belief or practice, at least not for most.

 

No, it isn't. But it is an outgrowth of fanatical belief. And your claim of "most" is nebulous. How do you know?

 

This is because they are morally opposed to birth control. A backwards view indeed, but it's not their fault AIDS is spreading across Africa, and it doesn't negate the value of the medical care they do provide.

 

It is if they are aware of a means to stop it, have access to said means, and yet do nothing. They are morally opposed to birth control because of their idea of god's will. So, it is god's will that these people get AIDS, by extension. If that is so, why help them at all?

 

No. I never said that condoms shouldn't be handed out in Africa. I merely said that just because an organization is opposed to handing out condoms doesn't mean they're doing harm.

 

Actually, yeah, it does. This organization is a church, and this church has specific ideas about god's will, so they don't hand out condoms. The fact that their morality about birth control trumps the suffering and death of living people should give any moral person pause.

 

No one forces them to go help people in Africa. They're free to do so however they want to, and they do much good in spite of their backwards views on birth control.

 

They are there to spread their religion. And yes, they are free to do what they want, and I am free to comment on it, and the lack of ethics involved.

 

Oh really? You believe that love exists?

Where is your evidence for this claim?

 

Let's use this definition: love (n) - A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

 

No go out and watch people. You can seem them behave based on this feeling everywhere.

 

This is not always true. I claim to be a Christian, and do not reject Islam, Hinduism, or most other religions.

 

Really. Do you pray five times a day? Do you eat meat? Do you kill anything, ever?

[sb129]

What does that have to do with anything? Homosexuality being illegal doesn't keep people from practicing it, nor would legalizing it make everyone suddenly homosexual. Homosexuality is found throughout nature. It occurs naturally in humans. .

 

Homosexuality is displayed in over 300 other species of animal too.

 

But we haven't discriminated against any of them.

They aren't mentioned in the Bible at all.

 

I believe in love because I have experienced it. And do on a daily basis.

Love can actually be broken down into biochemical science.

 

I believe in science because I see its wonders every day.

 

I don't believe in prayer, god because to date, I haven't witnessed any evidence of their existence.

[Diamonds&Rust]

Why not? Another assertion with no evidence.

Because fundamentalist Christians aren't the only people who pray!

 

Fortunately, calling your logic sound does not make it so. I lack the energy to argue with you, at least fundamentalist Christians have a motive.

 

sb129 -- anything you said about love and science can be said about God too, even if that is not your experience.

[Island Girl]

Prayer is not a fanatical belief or practice, at least not for most.

 

Uh yeah it is.

 

I don't know where you get that idea from, but you're wrong.

 

Worldwide

 

Muslims represent 22% (1.3 Billion)

 

Christians represent 33% (2.1 Billion)

 

Hindus represent 13% (900 Million)

 

So I'd say that is "most", wouldn't you?

 

Yeah -- that'd be at least 68% of the world population that believe in religion and pray

 

And Muslims, which are by far the fastest growing segment, pray 5 times a day at very specific times and in a very specific way -- I think they are about as fanatical about it as one can get.

 

Of course that isn't stated to imply that Christians or Hindus aren't fanatical about prayer.

 

Just that Muslims have a very confirmed fanatical prayer schedule.

[Moai]

Because fundamentalist Christians aren't the only people who pray!

 

Fortunately, calling your logic sound does not make it so. I lack the energy to argue with you, at least fundamentalist Christians have a motive.

 

Calling my logic flawed does not make it so.

 

So far, you have not argued with me at all. You have just said that my logic is flawed, that I don't understand the Bible, etc. You have provided no examples of this being the case, nor have you suggested an alternate view of prayer that is tenable.

 

I also note that you have yet to address one substantive part of any of my posts; rather, you claim that because you are not a Fundamentalist nobody is (or they are rare, which is false), that I don't understand prayer (which is described specifically in the Bible), and that religious faith is not the cause of much of the world's suffering. You have provided no evidence for these positions, you just make statements and think that's enough. It isn't.

 

If you don't have the energy for this discussion, why did you post in the first place? Perhaps it is because you hold your beliefs in such high regard that others should see them as correct because you say so?

 

And I have a motive, too. It is a motive you probably don't like, but it is still a motive. I would like society to become more rational.

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

A different problem than what? The faith that they have directly causes death. But it makes them feel better, so who am I to judge?

 

If someone is being killed for prayers, then the problem are not the prayers but of violating people's rights. Prayers are just prayers.

 

Believers come up with various extra-biblical explanations for why prayer doesn't work.

 

Yeah, they probably say a whole bunch of things.

 

they know just as well as I do that prayer doesn't work... But a miracle has never, ever happened. There are not unpredictable, they never happen.

 

Nobody knows the answer to that.

 

Ariadne

[Moai]

Hi,

 

A different problem than what? The faith that they have directly causes death. But it makes them feel better, so who am I to judge?

 

If someone is being killed for prayers, then the problem are not the prayers but of violating people's rights. Prayers are just prayers.

 

Hello,

 

People kill each other because they pray "wrong" or to the wrong god. And there is evidence for any of them. Isn't it sad that there is so much suffering because of something for which there isn't a shred of evidence?

 

The point of this isn't that prayer itself is evil or wrong (it is meaningless, actually), it is that prayer has no effect on anything. As the discussion has progressed, aspects of faith have been brought up.

 

Sure, people kill others for all sorts of reasons, but religion is the most popular reason.

 

Believers come up with various extra-biblical explanations for why prayer doesn't work.

 

Yeah, they probably say a whole bunch of things.

 

They sure do.

 

they know just as well as I do that prayer doesn't work... But a miracle has never, ever happened. There are not unpredictable, they never happen.

 

Nobody knows the answer to that.

 

Ariadne

 

We do, actually. If I told you that I saw my cat fly, you would probably think that I was crazy. If you saw a man walking on water, you would probably assume it was a magic trick. Yet if such things are written in a book 2,000 years ago, and the writer of that book happened to be credulous to the point of fault (and ignorant) it must be true and these things are real. Why?

 

2,000 years ago these men knew virtually nothing about how the world works. Not their fault, of course, because you have to start somewhere, but now we know a great deal more about such things, yet the word of these ignorant men is "sacred" and their accounts are true, and beyond challenge.