Answered Prayer

[bluetuesday]

So there is my challenge, I dare you to get to know Him. Either by just reading the Bible (yes the flawed book as you call it) because you don't know Him at all and it's such a shame.

 

moai is the son of an ex-pastor, i believe. he was once a christian and trust me, he knows the bible backwards. lack of knowledge about the bible is NOT moai's problem, if indeed he has a problem.

 

the bible is (loosely) a book ABOUT god. it is not written BY god. and it's a flawed tool for getting to know god, the same as you don't know tom cruise by reading what other people write about him. the same as you wouldn't know me by studying all my LS posts and the responses other people made to them.

 

to find the real me, you have to come to my house and spend time with me. to find the real god you have to look in the only place jesus said god was. in his kingdom. and where's that kingdom? it's within you.

[Storyrider]

we live in a universe loaded with plausable deniability, for very good reason. there is no undeniable evidence for god. if there were, people who wanted to experience being atheists wouldn't be able to. that's not the way god works at all. god will never negate people's free will NOT to believe in god, if that's the experience they want.

 

that's not to say god has bailed on the universe and left us all without evidence. it certainly exists on an individual basis. i have experienced the transcendental reality of god and know god exists. other people have similar stories of experience of god at a level they can understand. those experiences vary, but then no two people would describe the beauty of a rainbow in exactly the same way either.

 

if a person sincerely seeks answers about god with an open mind, they will find them. if they don't want to find them, or refuse to open their mind to anything beyond what they currently think they know, they'll probably fill up their time starting lots more threads like this, proving nothing, teaching nothing and learning nothing.

 

on topic, answered prayer is not something god does for some people and not others, as if he was an old man handing out candyfloss to children who asked the nicest.

 

you want your prayers answered, start LISTENING to god. start taking responsibility for your life and stop blaming other people for what happens to you...

 

I more or less agree with this, with my own spin on it, I suppose.

 

About the analogy of children begging for candy--children do complain when they ask and do not receive that, "It isn't fair." That is how adults sound when we complain about asking from God and not receiving. But children (and adults) don't always understand what it is they ask, and what the consequences would be of having no more vaccinations or being able to eat candy all the time.

 

On another level, listening to children pray can be very refreshing and enlightening.

 

My four yr old's prayer the other night:

 

"God, please help me not to have a bad dream. And God, please help me not to have a really bad dream. And please, please help me not to have an even worse dream than that."

 

She can also sing the Sh'ma in the vocal style of Bob Dylan, which is very inspiring.

[DutchGuy]

moai is the son of an ex-pastor, i believe. he was once a christian and trust me, he knows the bible backwards. lack of knowledge about the bible is NOT moai's problem, if indeed he has a problem.

 

the bible is (loosely) a book ABOUT god. it is not written BY god. and it's a flawed tool for getting to know god, the same as you don't know tom cruise by reading what other people write about him. the same as you wouldn't know me by studying all my LS posts and the responses other people made to them.

 

to find the real me, you have to come to my house and spend time with me. to find the real god you have to look in the only place jesus said god was. in his kingdom. and where's that kingdom? it's within you.

 

Every Christian derived his/her faith from the bible.

It used to be the book of god, and 100% accurate, now it suddenly is man made and you should look within yourself to find god?

And where is this stated, in the bible...

Nobody thought up 'god' on their own, everybody that believes read the bible or heard it from somebody who did.

And now that bible is flawed?

But oh wait, you can find god within yourself ("he he, nobody can check this and if they say there is nothing we'll tell 'em that they didn't look close enough")

 

The great and mighty god, the superbeing that could create the universe and life... only to be found if you look really close in your heart.

"See, he made me find my car keys today!"

Pathetic.

 

So many believers that claim they found god and spoke with him, yet everybody has a different opinion about christianity, what's up with that?

It's easy, if you can talk to god just ask him what he thinks about gays, abortion, eating meat, republicans, democrats, war...

 

I talked to god myself, he said he would die after our conversation.

[Moai]

we live in a universe loaded with plausable deniability, for very good reason. there is no undeniable evidence for god. if there were, people who wanted to experience being atheists wouldn't be able to. that's not the way god works at all. god will never negate people's free will NOT to believe in god, if that's the experience they want.

 

When did I make the decision that I wanted to experience being an atheist? While I appreciate that you do not share most of the beliefs that make up mainstream religion, with the above you suggest that god has a plan, right? You determine god's plan to be one way, and yet billions of others have the same notion and have a very different conclusion. It seems that you all reach your conclusions the same way.

 

that's not to say god has bailed on the universe and left us all without evidence. it certainly exists on an individual basis. i have experienced the transcendental reality of god and know god exists. other people have similar stories of experience of god at a level they can understand. those experiences vary, but then no two people would describe the beauty of a rainbow in exactly the same way either.

 

The point is that I may not describe the rainbow the same way as someone else, rainbows are known to exist. I do think that all humans can experience things that are transcendental (I have myself), but since you call them god and I don't does it matter? I would mention that it is dangerous to assert what god wants, and assert that the world is a certain way because of god's will on particular matters. Your description may be largely benign, it is certain that most are not. And why suggest that at all?

 

if a person sincerely seeks answers about god with an open mind, they will find them. if they don't want to find them, or refuse to open their mind to anything beyond what they currently think they know, they'll probably fill up their time starting lots more threads like this, proving nothing, teaching nothing and learning nothing.

 

Let's look at this paragraph in some detail. First, As you know, I was once a believer. I have had a conversion experience that was very powerful, and I have read a great deal about the gods people believe in and the reasons for their belief. I certainly don't know all there is to know on the subject, but I know a great deal and still enjoy learning more.

 

I think when you mention a "search for god" you are not describing and open-minded search at all, but rather a search where I assume god to exist, and then look for evidence as to his/her/its attributes. That is not open-minded, as to be truly open-minded one must be open to the idea that god does not exist. There are certainly things beyond what I currently know, I just have yet to come across any for some time. It seems that every believer thinks that they have stumbled upon some new revelation and that those who don't share their belief just don't know about it, or don't understand it, or aren't "open" to it. That is not the case.

 

And, I learn from these threads all the time, and perhaps others do as well. At the very least it gives people the opportunity to practice their rhetorical skill and expository writing. Isn't that good enough?

 

From your last line you seem to think that unless someone agrees with your point of view they haven't learned anything. Is that not arrogant, and demonstrably false?

 

 

on topic, answered prayer is not something god does for some people and not others, as if he was an old man handing out candyfloss to children who asked the nicest.

 

Ok, then what is it? I have used the assertions made about prayer as a starting point in this discussion, and those assertions directly contradict your above statement. And if what you say is true, why do so many people believe that not to be the case? Why do some people really think that god IS and old man handing out candyfloss--to those who believe enough?

 

you want your prayers answered, start LISTENING to god. start taking responsibility for your life and stop blaming other people for what happens to you. there is no such thing as god's punishment. there is only reaping what you sow. a lot of people live ungodly, selfish lives and then wonder why god doesn't save them when the waters rise. you sow wonder and the love of god, you reap a miracle that will move mountains. you sow selfishness and ungodly behaviour, you reap katrina. welcome to the scientific law of cause and effect.

 

Who are you to say that? How do you know that these people lived ungodly lives and have reaped what they have sown? How is that a convicted felon who stole from his neighbors as they fled the storm was saved, yet an infant was drowned in his crib? Didn't the felon reap the miracle in this instance?

 

And, you cannot have it both ways. Above you suggest that we take responsibility for our actions (I couldn't agree more), yet you also claim we reap what we sow--and that includes tropical storms. Isn't that contradictory?

 

Katrina was a natural occurrence, some people died, some people lived, some people lost everything, some people made it relatively fine. It is random, god has nothing to do with it. There is no punishment or reward involved.

[Moai]

Maoi,

 

I honestly think you should get to know God more before you accuse Him of all the things you have so far. I find it irritating when people just assume things about God just because they heard someone say something.

 

I'm not accusing god of anything. I don't think there is s such thing, and therefore cannot be responsible for anything.

 

And I am not assuming things about god. The Bible makes claims about god. Believers make claims about god. The Koran makes claims about god. It isn't like "i heard someone say something." There are books about him In the Catholic Church, we have centuries of writing about god. Many of these men spent their lives thinking about god and sharing their conclusions. The Protestant churches have much the same literature. That is much different than "Well, Steve told me this and that about god, so it must be so." Most people don't have a very unique idea about god, they believe as their parents did, or they adopt the beliefs of their "new" faith, whatever that is.

 

If you knew Him and you still said all these things, fine. Just don't judge based on popular things you've heard.

 

I don't. And to whom do you refer when you say, "Him"? I'll get to know Allah as well as I can immediately, then.

 

So there is my challenge, I dare you to get to know Him. Either by just reading the Bible (yes the flawed book as you call it) because you don't know Him at all and it's such a shame.

 

I have read the Bible. Many times. And yes, it is a shame that I do not know Allah as I should. I am going to dedicate my life to reading the Koran and the teachings of Mohammad (PBUH).

 

PS: I'm not replying to anymore questions about this and that. Just get to know Him, maybe then you can boast of how awful He is from your own relationship with Him.

 

Good luck

 

Thanks.

[sb129]

Still here, still watching. Still think your posts kick butt Moai.

[Moai]

moai is the son of an ex-pastor, i believe. he was once a christian and trust me, he knows the bible backwards. lack of knowledge about the bible is NOT moai's problem, if indeed he has a problem.

 

You are correct.

 

the bible is (loosely) a book ABOUT god. it is not written BY god. and it's a flawed tool for getting to know god, the same as you don't know tom cruise by reading what other people write about him. the same as you wouldn't know me by studying all my LS posts and the responses other people made to them.

 

I am a little more strident in my dismissal of the Bible, but I agree with you as far as you go. And I definitely agree with your last statement.

 

to find the real me, you have to come to my house and spend time with me. to find the real god you have to look in the only place jesus said god was. in his kingdom. and where's that kingdom? it's within you.

 

I take your point, but Jesus didn't say he was in you. He lives in Heaven (wherever that is) and will come inside you when you ask him. You have to ask him first. There are 2,500 different interpretations of what that actually means. But I am not trying to be nitpicky, sorry. I agree with your post above very much, and I appreciate it.

 

I would also add that while I wouldn't describe your experiences the way you do, I certainly think that they are on the right track and provide a more rational view of the transcendent, one that is desperately needed. I am certainly a strident atheist, but I hope that we reach a point where we can discuss thiese things openly and not give these ideas credibility just because they are held by someone somewhere.

[reddog63]

It isn't faith making the difference. It is true that belief can be a very powerful thing, but that doesn't mean there is magic involved.

 

A friend of mine is a police officer, and his partner was shot with a .25 caliber pistol in the arm. The .25 has slightly more power than a pellet gun. He was so convinced that when you are shot you die, that he went into shock and died.

 

There are just as many instances where someone who has little chance of making it dies as well. Probability.

 

 

 

Yes, it can. In your case, the type of faith you have can be benign, but for others it is not. Honor killings, stonings for homosexuals, wars...all because of faith.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

 

Just Curious Moai.....

 

Why so strong of an opinion? At least thats the tone I get from posts.

 

To me, I do not have the religion thing all figured out. I see no lights, do not get any warm fuzzy feeling, etc from religion. But I keep my mind open too. I guess what I mean is I believe in God.......more from reasoning then preaching..........do not enjoy church other then it is good for kids, teach good values, etc .....I would rather skip and stay home.......but I do not feel threatened about religion either.

 

The only time I get annoyed is when someone pushes it on me.

 

 

Prayers being answered? Shoot, I am not sure. Some stories about them are very interesting. I think special things happen on occasion. Just because I do not understand it all does not make me think it is all bullsh_t.

 

I guess we will all find out someday.

[primed7]

Can I humbly say that being the son of an ex-pastor DOES NOT automatically mean he knew God then. I don't doubt his knowledge of the Bible one bit, but I also know that Satan himself knows the Bible inside and out. Now I'm not saying that he's satan, just that you can have the knowledge and still miss the point.

 

Thanks

[DutchGuy]

Can I humbly say that being the son of an ex-pastor DOES NOT automatically mean he knew God then. I don't doubt his knowledge of the Bible one bit, but I also know that Satan himself knows the Bible inside and out. Now I'm not saying that he's satan, just that you can have the knowledge and still miss the point.

 

Thanks

 

The thing is, who's missing the point: Christians or Atheists?

[blind_otter]

i agree with that NJ. Its up to people how they live their lives. But I don't like being told that I SHOULD pray, or that people pray for me. This about sums up how I feel about prayer. Not my words, but good all the same.

 

So why does it bother you when people pray for you? For example, there's a girl at my job who has been sick with bronchitis. I told her that I would say a prayer for her to get well soon. Would you find something like that offensive? I'm going to stop telling people that I'm praying for them.

[a4a]

So why does it bother you when people pray for you? For example, there's a girl at my job who has been sick with bronchitis. I told her that I would say a prayer for her to get well soon. Would you find something like that offensive? I'm going to stop telling people that I'm praying for them.

 

Yes, I do find it offensive.

(even though the question was not directed at me)

[riobikini]

re:

 

Moai: "...I intend to illustrate some of the fallacies and downright offensive beliefs that are held by those who accept things on no evidence."

 

Who's to say they're *not* just focusing positive thought in finding keys, or dogs, etc....and that the fear held by someone who has cancer creates such negative thoughts that the positive ones (which I personally believe are the key to all this) are never initiated, or put into motion to do the work that -obvious science- has already proven improves health -and perhaps, even memory function- through physiological means?

 

-Rio

[Moai]

Still here, still watching. Still think your posts kick butt Moai.

 

Well, thank ya, honey!

[Moai]

Can I humbly say that being the son of an ex-pastor DOES NOT automatically mean he knew God then. I don't doubt his knowledge of the Bible one bit, but I also know that Satan himself knows the Bible inside and out. Now I'm not saying that he's satan, just that you can have the knowledge and still miss the point.

 

Thanks

 

It is true that just because my father was a pastor that I knew god.

 

However, I was a believer and have had a born-again experience. In fact, I was a believer longer than I have been an atheist, but that is going to turn around here shortly.

 

When you refer to me (or anyone else) missing the point, what does that mean exactly? That is the core fo the issue.

 

You think that the Bible teaches "x" about spirituality, loving others, what god wants, etc. That is all well and good, but there are AT LEAST 2500 established Christian sects in the world. Each one of these is certain that they "get the point" of the Bible, and that the others do not. While it is true that much of the disagreement is on "trivial" points of doctrine, fathere are others that are not. Do you believe in transubstantiation? Must you confess before you take Communion? Are you allowed birth control? What Easter rituals must you particiapate in?

 

And on and on. Notice, that to miss even a few of these for most means that you are not a "True" Christian, and you are doomed to hell in that event.

 

Finally, while many Christians have a modern, liberal interpretation as to what the "point" of it all is, many do not. They think that the Earth is 6,000 years old, and that god gave them the North American continent to set up His government. They are working to acheive that end right now. Are they missing the point? How do you know? They can cite chapter and verse, interpret global events throught eh lens of "prophecy" etc. Are they totally wrong?

 

If you look at the history of mankind and what believers have used the Bible to justify (genocidee, murder, slavery, persecution)--were they missing the point?

 

Millions of people think it is perfectly fine to cut off someone's hand for stealing. The Koran says that is what you are supposed to do. Are they missing the point?

 

The fact is that the morality you enjoy now, and the lens that you use to filter the Bible is based on secular reasoning. So why do we need the Bible at all?

[Moai]

re:

 

 

 

Who's to say they're *not* just focusing positive thought in finding keys, or dogs, etc....and that the fear held by someone who has cancer creates such negative thoughts that the positive ones (which I personally believe are the key to all this) are never initiated, or put into motion to do the work that -obvious science- has already proven improves health -and perhaps, even memory function- through physiological means?

 

-Rio

 

Well, the power of positive thinking is a nice idea, but ther is no evidence for it. Beyond that, prayer has not been shown to work, nor haave "positive" thoughts. Whie it is true that someone who is certain they will get better might put more into their treatment, just thinking positively by itself is meaningless. I have posted a link to the "studies" that show prayer and positive thinking to work before, but I'll repost it if you like. It is very interesting in any event.

 

In Mark (I think) there is a passage that says Christians will be able to drink poison and handle snakes and be immune to their bites. In the early 20th century a cult developed that does those things. And these people die, all the time. The founder himself died from a snake bite, because he refused treatment, certain that his fiath (i.e. positive thinking) would save him. It didn't. What's worse, is you cannot convince these people that their faith (or positive thinking) is misplaed. They all say that it was just because the person who dided did not have enough faith. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

[riobikini]

re:

 

Moai, your most recent post.

 

It is sad to think -even in the most realistic terms- that encouraging a positive thought rather than allowing a negative one to take root could never be beneficial in any way.

 

It is sadder, still, according to your beliefs (or lack of) that the starving, dying children described in one of your posts in this thread (whose plight, it seems is always the first pick, case-in-point for those who despise, ridicule, and mock the belief systems of others, btw) have nothing more than a miserable life, followed by a miserable death to look forward to in either of those events.

 

But if simple facts were the key to solving the world's problems, and keeping starving children from dying -Moai- you would certainly be The Champ in providing them.

 

I am not in the crowd of observers (readers) who think as one poster put it that " you really kick butt!" with what you say and how -in carefully choosing your supporting information- you seem to have victoriously stamped out every tiny piece of inspiration, every hope, every encouraging bit of reason for anyone who might be searching for something more to add to their lives and make it richer.

 

If they listened to you and *only* you, I think hope would surely die around the world and throughout the universe because nothing you say inspires hope.

 

In fact, it inspires a big, black, bleak hole of nothing.

 

Your posts (the ones in recent months I have read) have made me wonder if you have ever wished anything for someone else you loved or cared about so intensely and so passionately that you were ever tempted to abandon your disbelief in any higher power and just give it a try -for someone else's sake.

 

I have wondered -if you were unfortunate enough to be the parent of a suffering, dying child- how you would react through the process and what it would feel like for you to have nothing inside you except a breaking heart.

 

And *facts* to comfort you.

 

I have wondered many things about you, Moai -but to each his own.

 

-Rio

[Moai]

re:

 

Moai, your most recent post.

 

It is sad to think -even in the most realistic terms- that encouraging a positive thought rather than allowing a negative one to take root could never be beneficial in any way.

 

I didn't say that encouraging people to think positively was bad, or a waste, or anything of the sort. All I am saying is that thinking positively, in and of itself, doesn't affect anything. If that fact makes you unhappy that is unfortunate, but that doesn't make it any less true. The Universe isn't arranged, nor does it operate based on our feelings.

 

It is sadder, still, according to your beliefs (or lack of) that the starving, dying children described in one of your posts in this thread (whose plight, it seems is always the first pick, case-in-point for those who despise, ridicule, and mock the belief systems of others, btw) have nothing more than a miserable life, followed by a miserable death to look forward to in either of those events.

 

It isn't the first pick, but it is a very good one. And I do think that teir life is miserable, yes. Are you suggesting that all their suffering was worth it, or is erased because they laughed once in their lives? It isn't as if there just isn't enough food to feed these children and it is just too bad they are dying; they are dying because of their governments, or because they are denied food because they are the wrong religion. There is a genocide occuring in Darfur even as I write this. I see religious groups in this country spending millions to fight against what two grown people do together in the privacy of their own bedrooms, yet they do virtually nothing to save these people's lives--people who are largely Christian themselves. Every time I see ground broken for a new mega-church costing millions I can't help but think how many men, women, and children could have been helped with that same money. Is it god's will that these well-fed, comfortable believers build a huge edifice glorifying him while children--Christian children--starve?

 

As I have mentioned before, there are missionaries in Africa right now preaching AGAINST condom use. This is happening in areas where there is no other information available, and millions die form AIDS each year. Why do they do this? Because they believe that contraception is against god's will. That's it. There is no other reason.

 

But if simple facts were the key to solving the world's problems, and keeping starving children from dying -Moai- you would certainly be The Champ in providing them.

 

There are facts that show religion to be a divisive force--perhaps the most divisive force--in our world today. Muslims are killing other Muslims by the hundreds, Muslims are starving Christians, Christians are killing Muslims...Buddhists are killing Sikhs--shall I go on? It isn't just facts that will save the world, it is basing our decisions on facts instead of ancient superstition that will save the world; or at least that is what will give us the best shot.

 

I am not in the crowd of observers (readers) who think as one poster put it that " you really kick butt!" with what you say and how -in carefully choosing your supporting information- you seem to have victoriously stamped out every tiny piece of inspiration, every hope, every encouraging bit of reason for anyone who might be searching for something more to add to their lives and make it richer.

 

I am not sure what the benefit would be for me to choose my supporting information haphazardly, frankly. It would seem that you think that the only source of inspiration is the supernatural. Is that so? I think that what we have already accomplished provides a great deal of inspiration. We have eliminated small pox, we can now feed millions on the same amount of land that used to only support hundreds, more information is available to more people than at any other time in human history, our longevity is increasing almost exponentially--the list is virtually endless, and it gets even longer every day. We are on track to grow human organs from the tissue of the individual himself, providing immeasurable benefit to people suffering from kidney and liver disease, heart disease, paralysis, and burns.

 

Isn't that awesome? Facts like that fill me with hope. Which is better--hope that actually secures tangible benefit, or hope in something for which there is no evidence? I am hopeful that we can abandon superstition and make reasonable, rational decisions about our future.

 

If believing things for which there is no evidence gives you hope and gives your life meaning, enjoy. Far be it from me to convince you otherwise. Sadly, most of those beliefs make themselves known out here in the real world where I have to live, and they are rarely (if ever) good.

 

If they listened to you and *only* you, I think hope would surely die around the world and throughout the universe because nothing you say inspires hope.

 

It isn't up to me to inspire hope. I am sure hope in a delusion feels great, but that doesn't make it real, or correct. I have hope in other people, not in some super-being that can't be shown to exist in the first place.

 

In fact, it inspires a big, black, bleak hole of nothing.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly don't.

 

Your posts (the ones in recent months I have read) have made me wonder if you have ever wished anything for someone else you loved or cared about so intensely and so passionately that you were ever tempted to abandon your disbelief in any higher power and just give it a try -for someone else's sake.

 

I am not so arrogant as to believe that my belief in a super-being does anything for anyone. I'd rather do something tangible for them than sit around wishing something for them. Every day I hope that people will become less superstitious, and that helps everyone--not just my loved ones. It is all for someone else's sake. That has been the point the whole time.

 

I have wondered -if you were unfortunate enough to be the parent of a suffering, dying child- how you would react through the process and what it would feel like for you to have nothing inside you except a breaking heart.

 

And *facts* to comfort you.

 

I won't know until it happens, if it does. When I am my loved ones are sick, I know that there are doctors and nurses dedicated to alleviate their suffering if not cure them outright. What comfort does accepting things on no evidence give me? And to whom should I turn for comfort? Jesus? Allah? Vishnu? Cthulhu? Does it matter, really?

 

I have wondered many things about you, Moai -but to each his own.

 

-Rio

 

Yep.

[riobikini]

I think, Moai -that the bottom line for me, making both the difference and the cut- concerning what you convey in your posts, is not the shine of the "correctness" or intellectual "brilliance" of them -but the darkened dullness of the *discompassion* I read in them.

 

Even when you indicate you have the least glimmer of caring concern for some put-upon group, or suffering unfortunate masses, and I am almost ready to accept some of your "facts" and statements -in the end- the facts are so coldly and bitterly delivered that, even if you are right and, ultimately, there is nothing in the infinite universe to draw strength from, the very idea of accepting your well-prepared arsenal of ideas, facts, and truths becomes so unattractive, so uninviting, and so offensive in a such a familiar way -similar to fanatic Christians and other religious zealots who's ideas and approach I also find equally distasteful- that I simply choose to dig in, stay with what is working for me -and happily move on.

 

-Rio

[Moai]

I think, Moai -that the bottom line for me, making both the difference and the cut- concerning what you convey in your posts, is not the shine of the "correctness" or intellectual "brilliance" of them -but the darkened dullness of the *discompassion* I read in them.

 

I am sorry that you don't appreciate my writing style. I am anything but "discompassionate" about human suffering--quite the reverse. Certainly all human suffering cannot be laid on religion, but so much of it can and can so easily be eliminated it sickens me, and makes me angry. Since I have no belief in an afterlife, I feel the preciousness of life in my bones, more deeply than I can articulate. When I read that a young woman was stoned to death because she had a male friend from a different religion, or that a young man was tied to a fence, tortured and killed simply because he loved a different way, it breaks my heart.

 

Even when you indicate you have the least glimmer of caring concern for some put-upon group, or suffering unfortunate masses, and I am almost ready to accept some of your "facts" and statements -in the end- the facts are so coldly and bitterly delivered that, even if you are right and, ultimately, there is nothing in the infinite universe to draw strength from, the very idea of accepting your well-prepared arsenal of ideas, facts, and truths becomes so unattractive, so uninviting, and so offensive in a such a familiar way -similar to fanatic Christians and other religious zealots who's ideas and approach I also find equally distasteful- that I simply choose to dig in, stay with what is working for me -and happily move on.

 

-Rio

 

How else should the facts be delivered? QED, no? And yes, the facts are uninviting and disturbing, that's the whole point. And do you not see that in your moderate belief in whatever it is you have chosen insulates and protects the Fundamentalists? Because I am being mean or cold or dispassionate (in your view) about faith in general and shouldn't be so, no dialog can exist where Fundamentalism is criticized. The "to each his own" idea lets them happily persecute others for no good reason, free from criticism.

 

This is the only area of human thought that operates this way. If I was posting about Republicans or Democrats, or one football team over another, my style or attitude would not be an issue. But look at beliefs--beliefs for which there is no evidence--about the supernatural remotely critically and I am somehow the crusher of hope and the dreams of man. This is not so.

[riobikini]

re

 

Moai: " And do you not see that in your moderate belief in whatever it is you have chosen insulates and protects the Fundamentalists?

 

The "to each his own" idea lets them happily persecute others for no good reason, free from criticism."

 

Moai -should we then conspire to stone the Fundamentalists?

 

Or wipe out evidence of religious culture that has existed since ancient times right up until this day because someone thinks the beliefs are not proven by science?

 

(re: your statement, " But look at beliefs--beliefs for which there is no evidence...")

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio

[Chamari]

I haven't read this entire thread, but the pages that I have read made me want to add a few comments. I might address some topics that were already discussed, sorry if I'm repeating points others have brought up already.

 

Moai--you don't seem to see a need for God in the universe. If that's the way you feel, that's up to you. However, you seem unwilling to allow other people to think differently. From your posts that I've read you seem to think that the best thing to do in regards to religion is to eliminate it and then the world will be ruled by logic and everything will turn out okay. I apologize if I'm misinterpreting you but that's what came across to me.

 

For all the logic that you've used, you imply a number of fallacies as well. The way you put it, the missionaries in Africa are responsible for the enormous number of AIDS related deaths because they don't hand out condoms. First off, you give no credit for the faith that these missionaries have that inspired them to go to Africa and try to do what they can for these people. Second of all, you seem to think that handing out condoms is the only answer. I know it's a shocking idea but have you never heard of abstinence? That would be as effective as condoms, cheaper, and is always available. Besides, there are other ways that AIDS is transmitted. Sure, maybe it would help, but if you give someone a box of condoms they're still going to run out and if it's at an inconvenient time . . . I just can't see that really being any sort of solution.

 

Maybe this was already addressed, but going back to prayer, yes, all things are possible through prayer, and yes, God has promised to answer every prayer. HOWEVER, he does not promise that the answer will always be 'yes'. Sometimes it's no. Now, I think you said something earlier about how He said that "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." That's not quite how my translation words it but I'm willing to work with it. Key word in there is 'believe'. If you truly believe--not just believe that God exists, but believe in what He has taught and believe that he is there and has a greater plan for the world as he has said--then you won't pray asking for trivial things, or even necessarily things that are highly important without acknowledging that what you truly wish for is that His will be done.

 

I know that sometimes the answer to prayer is yes and I've seen miracles (I saw a friend of mine shaking with pain that stopped not five minutes after he was prayed over); I also know that sometimes the answer to prayer is no, usually because I've been praying for the wrong thing. I believe in God but I don't think that if I prayed for a mountain to move that it would because it would be purposeless. There's no reason for the mountain to be moved. However, if a time came where there was good cause and I felt like it was the right thing to do, I would pray for that mountain to move and I believe that it happen.

 

I firmly believe that the majority of religions are good in and of themselves, however, the people who lay claim to those religions are not always as good as what their religion would ask of them. There will always be people that will blow things out of proportion and twist things to their own ends--even using religion as an excuse for their actions--but more often than not, those commiting such attrocities are going directly against what their religion teaches.

 

You're right that there have been and still are terrible things happening in the name of Chritianity (as well as other religions) but those things have never been inline with what Christianities author, Christ, taught. He taught compassion, mercy, and humility, principles that have been ignored by those commiting such crimes. Blame the people if you have to, but don't blame the religion for what it's members do.

[sunshinegirl]

Maybe this was already addressed, but going back to prayer, yes, all things are possible through prayer, and yes, God has promised to answer every prayer. HOWEVER, he does not promise that the answer will always be 'yes'. Sometimes it's no. Now, I think you said something earlier about how He said that "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." That's not quite how my translation words it but I'm willing to work with it. Key word in there is 'believe'. If you truly believe--not just believe that God exists, but believe in what He has taught and believe that he is there and has a greater plan for the world as he has said--then you won't pray asking for trivial things, or even necessarily things that are highly important without acknowledging that what you truly wish for is that His will be done.

 

I know that sometimes the answer to prayer is yes and I've seen miracles (I saw a friend of mine shaking with pain that stopped not five minutes after he was prayed over); I also know that sometimes the answer to prayer is no, usually because I've been praying for the wrong thing. I believe in God but I don't think that if I prayed for a mountain to move that it would because it would be purposeless. There's no reason for the mountain to be moved. However, if a time came where there was good cause and I felt like it was the right thing to do, I would pray for that mountain to move and I believe that it happen.

 

I think where I struggle is in the following kinds of things: let's imagine people are praying for the genocide in Darfur to end (and I am sure people out there are praying for that!). Why hasn't it happened? How can it possibly be God's will for mass slaughter and persecution to continue largely unabated? Why would God say 'yes' to helping someone find their keys, or get a job, or have a health scare turn out to be nothing, but 'no' to preserving an African's--better, many thousands of Africans' ---lives?

 

I believe it's the right thing for the genocide to end. Deep in my bones I believe God is grieved by it. So why doesn't He answer that prayer?

 

Why doesn't he send manna from heaven to feed starving people? He did it for the Jews in the Old Testament... are we now to believe he doesn't 'do' miracles anymore?

 

I don't mean that cynically - it's a real question for me. Where are God's priorities?!

 

This is where I get tripped up with regards to prayer.

[Storyrider]

This is where I get tripped up with regards to prayer.

 

By the same token, He allowed the Hebrews to remain slaves in Egypt for generations. He allowed both temples to be destroyed. He allowed Jesus to be crucified. So He definitely let prayers go unanswered in the Bible just as He does today.

 

Think about it this way. We see time like a road we're walking along. We know what has passed, but even the best theorists or political scientists can only infer what is to come. He sees it as if from above, and He sees the whole thing at once.

 

So the long term implications of historical events are hidden from us and clear to Him.

 

There are a couple of logical reasons God can't grant all worthy prayers. First, it is impossible for God to answer all worthy prayers in the affirmative. Say there is a heart available for transplant and two people are both praying that they receive that heart. Both are equally in need of it and both are equally worthy. How can God say yes to both? The only other way He could do this is by allowing someone else to die and creating a second available heart. But imagine the relatives of the third person had been praying for her to live. Someone is going to get a "no" in this situation.

 

I suppose He could make extra hearts rain from the sky? In theory He could do this. This gets to my second reason why we shouldn't expect God to grant all prayers.

 

The second reason is more of a paradox. How can we worship a God who answers prayers on the basis of whether humans deem those prayers worthy? If we require that God grant certain prayers in order to prove Himself, then God's will is now subordinate to our own. In that case, we would be calling the shots, not Him. So why worship him at all? He would be a weak god.

 

Of course, questioning God and bargaining with him is a Jewish tradition that goes back to the Biblical story of Abraham; Abraham bargained with God not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. So I don't see any problem with questioning God's apparent inaction in the Sudan and continuing to pray that He will help the people there. Even arguing with God is a longstanding Jewish tradition.

 

But to use this as an argument of His nonexistence or His non-goodness doesn't work for me.

[sunshinegirl]

By the same token, He allowed the Hebrews to remain slaves in Egypt for generations. He allowed both temples to be destroyed. He allowed Jesus to be crucified. So He definitely let prayers go unanswered in the Bible just as He does today.

 

Think about it this way. We see time like a road we're walking along. We know what has passed, but even the best theorists or political scientists can only infer what is to come. He sees it as if from above, and He sees the whole thing at once.

 

So the long term implications of historical events are hidden from us and clear to Him.

 

There are a couple of logical reasons God can't grant all worthy prayers. First, it is impossible for God to answer all worthy prayers in the affirmative. Say there is a heart available for transplant and two people are both praying that they receive that heart. Both are equally in need of it and both are equally worthy. How can God say yes to both? The only other way He could do this is by allowing someone else to die and creating a second available heart. But imagine the relatives of the third person had been praying for her to live. Someone is going to get a "no" in this situation.

 

I suppose He could make extra hearts rain from the sky? In theory He could do this. This gets to my second reason why we shouldn't expect God to grant all prayers.

 

The second reason is more of a paradox. How can we worship a God who answers prayers on the basis of whether humans deem those prayers worthy? If we require that God grant certain prayers in order to prove Himself, then God's will is now subordinate to our own. In that case, we would be calling the shots, not Him. So why worship him at all? He would be a weak god.

 

Of course, questioning God and bargaining with him is a Jewish tradition that goes back to the Biblical story of Abraham; Abraham bargained with God not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. So I don't see any problem with questioning the reason behind God's not helping the people in the Sudan and continuing to pray that he will. Even arguing with God is a longstanding Jewish tradition.

 

But to use this as an argument of His nonexistence or His non-goodness doesn't work for me.

 

Fair points, but not very satisfying. Your first set of reasoning implies that God is limited by the laws of physics and/or chooses not to do miracles anymore.

 

The second reason is the classic one I've heard all my life. God's in control, not us; He works in mysterious ways, not our ways, etc. These days that feels like a cop-out answer to me - it makes me want to re-examine God's characteristics a bit: maybe he's not actually omniscient and/or omnipotent. After all, if God's will is that every person know him and be saved, and we are praying for God's will, the Bible PROMISES that He will answer. Yet I've known many people who never accept Christ during their lifetimes.

 

Which then makes me re-examine the whole notion of the elect, of predestination, of what salvation means in the first place, whether there might be universal salvation, etc.

 

Basically the questions of prayer and praying in God's will open up a whole other set of theological questions that I used to be okay with, but am no longer okay with.

 

Sorry if this is creating thread drift!