Even the nice girls?

[johan]

If someone's moral code indicates it's ok to do such a thing, then there is not a lot to discuss. Anyone who would choose to do such a thing is just a naturally deceptive person. What is trying to reason with them about it going to buy you?

 

Anyone who thinks it's worth discussing as a mental exercise probably has the moral makeup to consider doing so. Or they are just trying to bait someone into a pointless argument. For the majority of people the answer is clear and it's not even interesting.

[monkey00]

no i mean what if you like or love someone you're in a relationship with but you can't see yourself with them forever. or you like them just enought to stay with them cause of some other reason. its like a temporary commited relationship. of course there would be some lying and deciept going on one persons part.

 

I've met such people in said relationships. While they feel that it's a temp committed relationship, and using each other (or perhaps just one person using) to fulfill a hole in their life...they're not deceiving anyone but themselves. Quite a surprise how many years one of these relationships could last...they could be going well into their 40's/50's and still be a victim of their own denial (or lack of ability to commit fully and go all the way).

[Krytellan]

I see we have an absolute divide among the genders. How cute. Krytie is feeling very philosophical tonight. But more importantly, wants ppl to put the crap aside and answer like your gut tells you.

 

OK, look women. I need you all to put aside whatever barriers you have and dig down deep into your psyche. Be honest with yourself, and be willing to accept that your response to this issue may cause dissonance with the person you perceive yourself to be.

 

OK. Whatever anyone wants to think, those who withold love have the power. This is predicated, however, on there being enough of a loving foundation to support a temporary withdrawl. If there is a powerful foundation, then those who pull back undeniably have the reins in the relationship. This is point 1. Now put this aside a moment into working memory.

 

Women do bore of men who are "easy" and don't make anything interesting. If they didn't, we wouldn't have the "bad boy" phenomena and marriages of 10 years wouldn't end because women just didn't "feel any passion anymore". Once a man is... oh, what's the best term here... in your pocket I think?, then there is little interest anymore. I know as with anything there are exceptions, but how many women can there possibly be that don't abide this "rule". Point 2.

 

Now with those ideas in mind, can you women honestly say that a man who provides no challenges and that can be counted on to do wonderful things for her on a semi-regular basis is not at some point a bore? Are you serious? Do you not really think that inserting an element of chase or being aloof can spark a desire in the woman to now seek what they expect rather than get it for just "being"?

 

And, as a man who is normally willing to provide these for his lover, can he not effefctively measure the extent of the woman's desire by making her occasionally snap to attention and put forth honest effort into creating a dynamic? Because let's face it, if a man is no longer pursued and is subconsciously expected to continue to provide these things just to maintain status quo, isn't he missing out on focused attention he could be getting?

 

You will say to me, "But if the woman was worthwhile, she would be reciprocating this attention to the man too." I say BULLPUCKIE. There is not enough room in a relationship of two for both partners to perform in this way. It would get bulky and just would not work. Therefore, it is up to only one to do this. But does it always have to be the man? If he suddenly decides that this week he needs just a little bit more than he's getting, isn't he obligated to step aside in his duties and allow the woman room to seek him out and react in a way that allows him more attention?

 

Put aside the idealistic and romantic bullsh*t and try to be honest here. I challenge you to convince me otherwise.

[champagne]

None of the serious relationships I've had are anything like you've described in the above.

A lot of marriages have the instance where there "isn't any passion," it's not just women who feel this, usually it's the man who's dropping the bomb (after he's been emotionally unavailable and treated her like crap for years.)

[Krytellan]

None of the serious relationships I've had are anything like you've described in the above.

A lot of marriages have the instance where there "isn't any passion," it's not just women who feel this, usually it's the man who's dropping the bomb (after he's been emotionally unavailable and treated her like crap for years.)

 

Well if you speak of all they have ended. Why did they end? And just because yours weren't like that that has no bearing on the cogency of the argument.

[Star Gazer]

I see we have an absolute divide among the genders.

 

Now with those ideas in mind, can you women honestly say that a man who provides no challenges and that can be counted on to do wonderful things for her on a semi-regular basis is not at some point a bore? Are you serious? Do you not really think that inserting an element of chase or being aloof can spark a desire in the woman to now seek what they expect rather than get it for just "being"?

 

There is a reason there is a divide among the genders.

 

Men like to chase. They almost NEED it. If the woman presents no challenges, HE gets bored. Because of this, he assumes at times he must make her chase as well.

 

WRONG.

 

Women do not want a challenge, they don't like to chase...either at the beginning, middle, or end of a relationship. They like to be caught, and held steady. They like - dare I say it - a certain level of predictability, because to women, that's safe. Consistency is key. Add a dash of spontaneity here and there, and you'll keep her interest...but pull away from her - whether to make her chase or to return the balance - and you will certainly make her untrusting of you.

 

I can't wait until I find a guy who actually "bores" me in the manner you describe.

[champagne]

Well if you speak of all they have ended. Why did they end? And just because yours weren't like that that has no bearing on the cogency of the argument.

 

Well I have been in love and serious relationships which were functional. They did not end because of what you described. By what you are saying, anyone who is not in a relationship, but has been in relationships before is not allowed to comment. Functional, committed, loving relationships are not as you have described, and I have been in functional, serious, committed, loving relationships before in my lifetime. Sorry, but dismissing what I have said just like that, makes you rude. Good luck with your girlfriend, it sounds like you need it.

You asked for our honest, "gut" opinions and then you just completely disregard it when we give you them. You want to dictate to women how it is, just because YOU feel that's how it is, and it doesn't work that way.

In a healthy, functional relationship, there is no need to have to back off to get proof that she will chase back (which you are saying is proof she really loves you), because she is letting you know in her loving ways ALREADY that she cares. There is no need to 'disappear' or withdraw affection. If you are feeling that you are not getting the love and affection from her returned, then you communicate and discuss with her your needs in the relationship, and she should feel free to discuss her needs in the relationship,also. Hope this isn't too confusing for you.

[Krytellan]

Well I have been in love and serious relationships which were functional. They did not end because of what you described. By what you are saying, anyone who is not in a relationship, but has been in relationships before is not allowed to comment. Functional, committed, loving relationships are not as you have described, and I have been in functional, serious, committed, loving relationships before in my lifetime. Sorry, but dismissing what I have said just like that, makes you rude. Good luck with your girlfriend, it sounds like you need it.

You asked for our honest, "gut" opinions and then you just completely disregard it when we give you them. You want to dictate to women how it is, just because YOU feel that's how it is, and it doesn't work that way.

In a healthy, functional relationship, there is no need to have to back off to get proof that she will chase back (which you are saying is proof she really loves you), because she is letting you know in her loving ways ALREADY that she cares. There is no need to 'disappear' or withdraw affection. If you are feeling that you are not getting the love and affection from her returned, then you communicate and discuss with her your needs in the relationship, and she should feel free to discuss her needs in the relationship,also. Hope this isn't too confusing for you.

 

I'm sorry, but being able to exclude yourself from any knowledge of the group in question does not in fact address the issue. Deal.

 

I have not disregarded anything. What I have done is to up the ante in an effort to challenge someone to acknowledge that I am speaking the truth. It's called intellectual discourse. From what I have seen, my theory has been absolutely denied by the women on LS, and that proves useful. What is not useful, however, is being told that I am a rude person in an unhealthy relationship. You can't begin to know me. I never said that I am that person, or that I have done any of those things. I speak hypothetical because I am curious of the truth. I do apologize if that offends you.

[Krytellan]

Women do not want a challenge, they don't like to chase...either at the beginning, middle, or end of a relationship. They like to be caught, and held steady. They like - dare I say it - a certain level of predictability, because to women, that's safe. Consistency is key. Add a dash of spontaneity here and there, and you'll keep her interest...but pull away from her - whether to make her chase or to return the balance - and you will certainly make her untrusting of you.

 

I must admit that I'm surprised by this assertion. So then explain how the women who chase the bad boy fit in your statement.

[champagne]

I'm sorry, but being able to exclude yourself from any knowledge of the group in question does not in fact address the issue. Deal.

 

I have not disregarded anything. What I have done is to up the ante in an effort to challenge someone to acknowledge that I am speaking the truth. It's called intellectual discourse. From what I have seen, my theory has been absolutely denied by the women on LS, and that proves useful. What is not useful, however, is being told that I am a rude person in an unhealthy relationship. You can't begin to know me. I never said that I am that person, or that I have done any of those things. I speak hypothetical because I am curious of the truth. I do apologize if that offends you.

I was completely addressing the issue by saying that the happy, healthy, loving, and lasting relationships that "stuck" are ones that did NOT involve what you described. The relationships I had that didn't last long, I was miserable and confused in, and WERE dysfunctional involved the games and manipulation that you are talking about (withdrawing to get a chase and reaction). So I AM addressing the issue. How is it NOT addressing the issue? by saying that the healthy, happy, functional relationships I've had DON'T involve the tactics you have delineated, that is CLEARLY addressing the issue. I don't see how someone couldn't see that.

You were rude because you basically said that because other relationships in my life have ended, then my input on answering your question was NOT valid. Yet, Touche and Stargazer have pretty much stated the same sentiments that I have on withdrawing for the chase.

So...since you were making assumptions that I did not know what I was talking about due to the fact that EVERY relationship I've ever been in didn't always end in marriage, I was assuming that YOU were having problems in your own relationship. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. If you pose a question to women, of which group I am a member, then don't disregard responses when YOU were the one who posed the question.

So YOU deal.

[champagne]

I see we have an absolute divide among the genders. How cute. Krytie is feeling very philosophical tonight. But more importantly, wants ppl to put the crap aside and answer like your gut tells you.

Well....I did give my most honest and heartfelt answer from my gut on this already, but it got instantly dismissed based on my marital status.

 

OK, look women. I need you all to put aside whatever barriers you have and dig down deep into your psyche. Be honest with yourself, and be willing to accept that your response to this issue may cause dissonance with the person you perceive yourself to be.

Yep. I did this.

 

OK. Whatever anyone wants to think, those who withold love have the power. This is predicated, however, on there being enough of a loving foundation to support a temporary withdrawl. If there is a powerful foundation, then those who pull back undeniably have the reins in the relationship. This is point 1. Now put this aside a moment into working memory.

Why is it important for one person to have power to hurt your partner by withdrawing? You see relationships as a power struggle such as the one who hurts the other has the power? This doesn't sound like a healthy arrangement to me. I can honestly say that "power" never has entered my mind when I am dating/in a relationship with someone. It's like saying "I win because I hurt you!" How is this strengthening a relationship?

 

Women do bore of men who are "easy" and don't make anything interesting. If they didn't, we wouldn't have the "bad boy" phenomena and marriages of 10 years wouldn't end because women just didn't "feel any passion anymore". Once a man is... oh, what's the best term here... in your pocket I think?, then there is little interest anymore. I know as with anything there are exceptions, but how many women can there possibly be that don't abide this "rule". Point 2.

I can honestly say I don't bore of men easily when it is a healthy relationship. Playing mindgames with a woman for the sake of reaction is simply being hurtful to the woman, and eventually she will tire of that behavior. As far as marriages ending because the woman "gets bored," you are simply buying into the Woggle theory about the "trend" of women getting bored and leaving, as if men NEVER do that. LOLOLOL

 

Now with those ideas in mind, can you women honestly say that a man who provides no challenges and that can be counted on to do wonderful things for her on a semi-regular basis is not at some point a bore? Are you serious? Do you not really think that inserting an element of chase or being aloof can spark a desire in the woman to now seek what they expect rather than get it for just "being"?

I do like men who have interests besides me. That makes them interesting, to know they are out playing sports, have friends, keep up with the news, have an affinity for hiking, etc. If a man is obsessed with me and has to spend every moment with me, and are needy...yes, that is boring and not a healthy relationship. Each person has to bring something to the table to keep it interesting and fun. If you feel "obligated" to do these wonderful things, and you are not getting "wonderful" things from your lover, then it's not a healthy relationship. Scheming up plans to withdraw and "challenge" your lover is not a healthy relationship. Note the word scheming....that is not a word that describes an activity of a healthy relationship.

 

And, as a man who is normally willing to provide these for his lover, can he not effefctively measure the extent of the woman's desire by making her occasionally snap to attention and put forth honest effort into creating a dynamic? Because let's face it, if a man is no longer pursued and is subconsciously expected to continue to provide these things just to maintain status quo, isn't he missing out on focused attention he could be getting?

A man should not have to provide "challenges" for his lover to "keep her in check." This is manipulative mindgames, and don't exist in a strong, healthy relationship. As far as creating 'dynamic,' that comes in suggesting new activities for your lover, and also the outside interests come into play. Having a weekend "off" and spending time with other people besides your lover also helps keep the 'dynamic.' If you let your relationship define you as a person...that is not healthy. In a healthy relationship, no one is "expected" to do anything, there is no "chase" or "pursuing" involved, you happily exist together and as a partnership. Both partners in a happy, healthy relationship continue to provide the other with love and attention in many different ways.

You will say to me, "But if the woman was worthwhile, she would be reciprocating this attention to the man too." I say BULLPUCKIE. There is not enough room in a relationship of two for both partners to perform in this way. It would get bulky and just would not work. Therefore, it is up to only one to do this. But does it always have to be the man? If he suddenly decides that this week he needs just a little bit more than he's getting, isn't he obligated to step aside in his duties and allow the woman room to seek him out and react in a way that allows him more attention?

Again, you're advocating manipulative mindgames on the man's part. You are not talking about a partnership or an equal relationship. You are talking about one where the woman isn't as "into" the guy as he is into her. In a happy, healthy, solid relationship, there is affection and love being presented on both ends. If the guy feels like he isn't getting what he emotionally needs, then, as I said before, he discusses this with his partner. It's funny you use the word "perform" in regards to a relationship. What you are saying here is that to be in a relationship, it involves one or both parties putting on an "act" which means it's not a solid relationship.

 

Put aside the idealistic and romantic bullsh*t and try to be honest here. I challenge you to convince me otherwise.

I have given you my upfront, non sugarcoated responses to your theory which you are trying to foist upon us.

[DanielMadr]

It is called 'Taking me for granted' or 'I took him for granted'. Relationship is neverending work. You become lazy or weak and you are OUT. You stop being challenge and you are out. The same goes for women...becomes lazy or controlling and she is out.

 

If you have problems when dating, imagine what would happen once you marry her (the challenge gets smaller) and have kids (challenge gets smaller even more). You must have enough of her love from the start to withstand it. Once you loose her respect you are Out.

 

Being challenge doesnt mean to have you things packed and ready to leave 24/7. Or flirting with other girls. Or giving orders all day long. If you need to pull out these types of guns, you are in serious trouble. But be ready to bluff when she performs some serious stunt/bluff.

And if you have some RED buttons, get rid of them. Once a girl can press the RED button to control you or throw you out of balance, she looses all respect. You know the buttons....she says or does something and you get all uneasy or start defending yourself or pissed off...you lost balance.

[Woggle]

Once a woman has what she wants she wants it no more so a man must constantly dangle a carrot and a stick in front of her if he wants the relationship to last. A woman becoming too secure and comfortable is the kiss of death for most relationships. Women will deny this until the cows come home but any man with some experience knows how true this is.

 

As for my theory of women getting bored and leaving just look at this board and look around you. It is an epidemic and it is increasing. 75% of divorces are initiated by women and less than half of them are over abuse or infidelity. Mostly it is because the woman falls out of love and needs to find themselves and they admit that they are married to good men but they feel like they settled and want to see what is out there.

[DanielMadr]

Women do not want a challenge, they don't like to chase...either at the beginning, middle, or end of a relationship. They like to be caught, and held steady. They like - dare I say it - a certain level of predictability, because to women, that's safe. Consistency is key. Add a dash of spontaneity here and there, and you'll keep her interest...but pull away from her - whether to make her chase or to return the balance - and you will certainly make her untrusting of you.

 

I can't wait until I find a guy who actually "bores" me in the manner you describe.

 

Nobody likes the chase. It is risky....you can trip and break your leg.

 

You are lonely. Your fireman gives you too much challenge. And you are not objective, sorry. Read the other 1 million threads from guys or girls who are no challenge to their partners.

 

Yes in seady relationship the challenge is not the most important but it still have to be present. Once you chain your leg to your SO and throw the key out of window, you can expect him/her looking for axe in the week.

 

Women respond pretty well to challenge. It signifies to you that you have bigger fish. All the guys who put their hearts to your feet are the little fish...you can have them, they are inferior to you. But a man who isnt all over you and you actually have to make some effort to snatch him....thats the prize.

 

And dont tell me it is not that.

[Krytellan]

It's funny to see such polarized opinions on the matter. Men say yes and women say no.

 

I have to admit I find it difficult to imagine that there aren't at least a few women who think this could be true. Is it possible that women aren't being completely honest with themselves?

[Woggle]

It's funny to see such polarized opinions on the matter. Men say yes and women say no.

 

I have to admit I find it difficult to imagine that there aren't at least a few women who think this could be true. Is it possible that women aren't being completely honest with themselves?

 

Always look at what women do and not what they say. They are two totally different things.

[halfarock]

Women do not want a challenge, they don't like to chase...either at the beginning, middle, or end of a relationship. They like to be caught, and held steady. They like - dare I say it - a certain level of predictability, because to women, that's safe. Consistency is key. Add a dash of spontaneity here and there, and you'll keep her interest...but pull away from her - whether to make her chase or to return the balance - and you will certainly make her untrusting of you.

I must admit that I'm surprised by this assertion. So then explain how the women who chase the bad boy fit in your statement.

 

For awhile now, I’ve come to realize that most women want a man who will take care of them – physically, emotionally, financially. A man who takes care of his woman makes her feel safe. Bad boys tend to be very protective of their women.

 

Also women seem to like a guy who will keep them entertained.

[Krytellan]

I am also getting the impression that people have this extreme perception of what I'm getting at when I say being a challenge or aloof. This isn't meant to mean blowing her off for a week or making her think that you might be seeing someone else or something mean like that. What I was thinking was something more subtle. Withdrawing communications where they have become commonplace. You know, suddenly that daily Email stops or you aren't around to answer the call after work for a while. Things like that.

 

This can also mean a constructive witholding of compliments. I have to imagine that compliments can become boring and mundane after a certain amount of time and predictability. I hear it brought up all the time. The more sparse the compliments, the more they mean. When you do something very romantic after a prolonged period of not being romantic, it's like they appreciate it more that way then when they get it on a regular basis. It's almost like the guys that are jerks that suddenly do something really nice out of the blue are just the best thing while the guy who's giving it regularly has a gf who is yawning at how boring their bf is.

 

So, in being aloof, it could mean to just keep your mouth shut and not bend over for them anymore out of nowehere and then randomly present these things in smaller quantities. Enough for them to see how much they really appreciate it without becoming taken for granted.

[DanielMadr]

I am also getting the impression that people have this extreme perception of what I'm getting at when I say being a challenge or aloof. This isn't meant to mean blowing her off for a week or making her think that you might be seeing someone else or something mean like that. What I was thinking was something more subtle. Withdrawing communications where they have become commonplace. You know, suddenly that daily Email stops or you aren't around to answer the call after work for a while. Things like that.

 

This can also mean a constructive witholding of compliments. I have to imagine that compliments can become boring and mundane after a certain amount of time and predictability. I hear it brought up all the time. The more sparse the compliments, the more they mean. When you do something very romantic after a prolonged period of not being romantic, it's like they appreciate it more that way then when they get it on a regular basis. It's almost like the guys that are jerks that suddenly do something really nice out of the blue are just the best thing while the guy who's giving it regularly has a gf who is yawning at how boring their bf is.

 

So, in being aloof, it could mean to just keep your mouth shut and not bend over for them anymore out of nowehere and then randomly present these things in smaller quantities. Enough for them to see how much they really appreciate it without becoming taken for granted.

 

This is from thread I cant find anymore and dont remember who wrote that:

 

I am going to put an anology to your problem. I'm into animals (K-9 training) so bear with me on this.

 

When you first start training a puppy, you want that 'bond' with them. A bond so tight that you know this dog would die for you. You want to have this dog following you, not you chasing it.

 

So, when the pup is about 10 weeks old, the worst thing you can do to a puppy is chase him. To get the puppy to come to you, have someone hold it back, while you call it. Let the puppy struggle and have your friend release it. While the puppy is coming towards you, run away from it. You now have the puppy wanting to be with you, wanting your friendship and companionship. Do this enough times and you are guaranteed a dog that has a very tight bond with you.

 

This kinda works with relationships to. Don't you see you have been chasing her? Asking her for dates, trying to be affectionate, etc.. It's not working. What you really want is her to come to you. How do you do that? Just about the same way you would with a puppy.

 

Don't have anymore 'talks' with her. Don't keep asking her about the relationship. All that does is get her to thinking you don't trust in her & the relationship. When asking 'Are we ok?' it's a huge turnoff to women. Don't act cold towards her, but also don't be the first to say 'I love you' all the time. Let her come to you, give her the space to do that. Even if it means going for days without hugging or kissing her, at least when you know she comes up to you then you truly know it's from her heart. Not just a reaction to 'your' kiss. Let her kiss you.

 

Let her wonder some. By doing this kinda thing you'll get her thinking. Right now she knows you aren't going to leave her. By doing this, you'll get her thinking otherwise, which will make her appreciate you more. Trust me, it works. I had the same problem with my wife. It was hard at first, but within' a couple of days I had her coming to me. When she finally does come to you, show your appreciation, but don't pounce her like a puppy. Remember this has to be a an ongoing thing. Some women also like a 'challenge' by their mate, even though they are married to them. To me, that's kinda stuipid but I guess everyone is different. Also know that you are worth being with, and show that. Women like confidence.

[serial muse]

Look, K. The reason you're getting such polarized responses is because of the way you posed the question. I think it's important to recognize this. Of course the women are going to say no, because it feels like an attack.

 

So turn the question around, make it about PEOPLE, and see what responses you get.

 

The real underlying point here is, you're feeling taken for granted, right? And you want to know if even the best of women is capable of that. Well, sure. All people are capable of that. Men and women both. Even the sweetest, most mature, and no-games PEOPLE do this. It's human nature, and it's often largely unconsciously done, rather than a sign of malicious or intentional game-playing. Turning that into a gender divide probably isn't going to tell you much that you want to know, and certainly won't help your personal situation.

 

Fact is, men and women both like to "chase" - sometimes - but men and women both like to feel safe. At times. The important thing, as both you and an earlier poster said, is that you feel like it's balanced; even if one person is doing the chasing sometimes, they shouldn't have to do it all the time. If you don't feel like there's a balance, then talk to your girlfriend about that, because it's a legitimate complaint.

 

What more is there to say, really? Don't make it into something it's not.

[champagne]

I am also getting the impression that people have this extreme perception of what I'm getting at when I say being a challenge or aloof. This isn't meant to mean blowing her off for a week or making her think that you might be seeing someone else or something mean like that. What I was thinking was something more subtle. Withdrawing communications where they have become commonplace. You know, suddenly that daily Email stops or you aren't around to answer the call after work for a while. Things like that.

 

This can also mean a constructive witholding of compliments. I have to imagine that compliments can become boring and mundane after a certain amount of time and predictability. I hear it brought up all the time. The more sparse the compliments, the more they mean. When you do something very romantic after a prolonged period of not being romantic, it's like they appreciate it more that way then when they get it on a regular basis. It's almost like the guys that are jerks that suddenly do something really nice out of the blue are just the best thing while the guy who's giving it regularly has a gf who is yawning at how boring their bf is.

 

So, in being aloof, it could mean to just keep your mouth shut and not bend over for them anymore out of nowehere and then randomly present these things in smaller quantities. Enough for them to see how much they really appreciate it without becoming taken for granted.

 

Wrong. If you are making a conscious effort to withhold affection, meaning doing it when you actually want to do the opposite, you are the one with the issues in the relationship and you just need to be open and communicative if you are feeling taken for granted, etc. It's about communication and honesty, not playing games, which you are advocating. Honestly, it's ridiculous, your whole theory.

[champagne]

I'm sorry, but being able to exclude yourself from any knowledge of the group in question does not in fact address the issue. Deal.

 

I have not disregarded anything. What I have done is to up the ante in an effort to challenge someone to acknowledge that I am speaking the truth. It's called intellectual discourse. From what I have seen, my theory has been absolutely denied by the women on LS, and that proves useful. What is not useful, however, is being told that I am a rude person in an unhealthy relationship. You can't begin to know me. I never said that I am that person, or that I have done any of those things. I speak hypothetical because I am curious of the truth. I do apologize if that offends you.

Wrong about the bold-faced sentence. Forcing your opinion and insisting that you are right is not intellectual discourse. Nothing on your end is at all anywhere near to intellectual discourse because you are not backing up your theory whatsoever. In fact, you don't even address the logical responses by the opposing side directly, just bullying comments like "If you're really honest with yourself, you know I'm right" and the like. If anything, that just shows you do not have anywhere near the actual truth and are in fact clueless.

[champagne]

Once a woman has what she wants she wants it no more so a man must constantly dangle a carrot and a stick in front of her if he wants the relationship to last. A woman becoming too secure and comfortable is the kiss of death for most relationships. Women will deny this until the cows come home but any man with some experience knows how true this is.

 

As for my theory of women getting bored and leaving just look at this board and look around you. It is an epidemic and it is increasing. 75% of divorces are initiated by women and less than half of them are over abuse or infidelity. Mostly it is because the woman falls out of love and needs to find themselves and they admit that they are married to good men but they feel like they settled and want to see what is out there.

 

Your figures are such bull. Just because a woman files for divorce, it doesn't mean she has initiated it. Usually both parties have agreed and it's irreconcilable differences. Just because infidelity or abuse isn't involved (and lots of times women do put up with a lot of emotional and verbal abuse from men, but that usually isn't reported as abuse or recognized as abuse) doesn't mean it's a good marriage and the woman should just tolerate living in an unhappy situation with a man who treats her like crap. I know a guy who just fell out of love with his wife and wanted a divorce. He gave her 6 months to file or he would do it. Well...she went and filed. You would say that she initiated the divorce according to these (unreliable and unfactual) statistics you have about who initiates divorce.

[champagne]

Once a woman has what she wants she wants it no more so a man must constantly dangle a carrot and a stick in front of her if he wants the relationship to last. A woman becoming too secure and comfortable is the kiss of death for most relationships. Women will deny this until the cows come home but any man with some experience knows how true this is.

 

As for my theory of women getting bored and leaving just look at this board and look around you. It is an epidemic and it is increasing. 75% of divorces are initiated by women and less than half of them are over abuse or infidelity. Mostly it is because the woman falls out of love and needs to find themselves and they admit that they are married to good men but they feel like they settled and want to see what is out there.

 

Your figures are such bull. Just because a person files for divorce, it doesn't mean that person has initiated it. Usually both parties have agreed and it's irreconcilable differences. Just because infidelity or abuse isn't involved (and lots of times people do put up with a lot of emotional and verbal abuse from their spouse in unhealthy marriages, but that usually isn't reported as abuse or recognized as abuse) doesn't mean it's a good marriage and the spouse who is unhappy should just tolerate living in an unhappy situation with a spouse who treats her/him like crap. I know a guy who just fell out of love with his wife and wanted a divorce. He gave her 6 months to file or he would do it. Well...she went and filed. You would say that she initiated the divorce according to these (unreliable and unfactual) statistics you have about who initiates divorce. As far as in most states nowadays, anyway, it's "no-fault" so you have no way of knowing how many divorces involve infidelity or abuse. Your figures are a complete sham actually.

[halfarock]

…of what I'm getting at when I say being a challenge or aloof.

I think you totally misunderstand the dynamics of this. Doing things like

suddenly that daily Email stops or you aren't around to answer the call after work for a while.

is not going to work out into a good situation.

 

What I have done is to up the ante in an effort to challenge someone to acknowledge that I am speaking the truth.

That no one, especially the women, is willing to make that acknowledgement should tell you something about your “truth”.

 

For a variety of reasons my girlfriend and I don’t always see each other as much as we’d like, sometimes only once or twice a week. So when we do see each other it is extra special. This would seem to confirm your ideas but it does not. Because we like each other because we like each other and not because of the circumstances. One of the major reasons I like her so much is that I feel so comfortable around her, we communicate easily. Your scheme has none of this.

 

Basically what you’re saying is that if you’re singing in a choir, that you should sing a little off now and then just to make sure that you are being heard. It makes for bad music.