Even the nice girls?

[Krytellan]

Thank you everybody for the responses. This thread hasn't really gone where I expected, and I should probably wrap it up.

 

I regret that people felt the need to comment on relationship and values and such as this post was simply an attempt at playing devil's advocate and seeing if deep down women really did agree or not. It seems they don't. Fine, point taken.

 

The post was simply based on a hypothetical situation and, not that I should feel the need to defend myself, doesn't reflect my behaviors or relationship. It was simply a product of a long history of hearing and seeing examples of women getting bored with good men and leaving them to find a challenge. I'm sure that there are people out there that thrive on having a comfortable and nonchallenging relationship, though I still refuse to believe that 100% of women fall into this category. But who am I to state an opinion like that?

 

Anyhoo, thanks for entertaining me and, at times, attacking my character

[Touche]

Well since you don't believe that we women are being honest about this, then let me ask you this question:

 

HOW'S THAT WORKING FOR YA?

 

You asked this of someone in another thread and I'm asking you that question now. Have you ever had a long-term relationship? (Sorry, don't know your history.) What's the longest relationship you've ever had?

 

Also, why not listen to those of us who are actually in a long-term relationship. Wouldn't we be in a position to know what works and what doesn't?

 

I've done it your way. In my first marriage in fact. I used to withold a lot because he did. All it did was build up resentment. It doesn't work.

 

Are you man enough to answer my questions?

[Krytellan]

Well since you don't believe that we women are being honest about this, then let me ask you this question:

 

HOW'S THAT WORKING FOR YA?

 

You asked this of someone in another thread and I'm asking you that question now. Have you ever had a long-term relationship? (Sorry, don't know your history.) What's the longest relationship you've ever had?

 

Also, why not listen to those of us who are actually in a long-term relationship. Wouldn't we be in a position to know what works and what doesn't?

 

I've done it your way. In my first marriage in fact. I used to withold a lot because he did. All it did was build up resentment. It doesn't work.

 

Are you man enough to answer my questions?

 

I was married, and am subsequently divorcing. I treated her wonderfully and in a matter of six months she managed to accuse me of being abusive, cold, and a loser.

 

I am at a loss for why people are coming in so aggressively. There must be something I said that struck a nerve with some of you.

 

As I said Touche, I am not a person that acts in the way that the post describes. What is everyone's difficulty with understanding the basic concept that sometimes people are just curious about something they don't do. Why is that so complicated?

 

How's it working for me? I don't know. You've done it more than I have. How was it for you?

[2ndIINone]

aloof in relationships....

 

Showing you can live WITH or without a person ... without being a jerk/creep to them. Showing you don't NEED another person (or the SO) to be happy... but rather you want them in your life. It's ok to want a person, but it's never ok to NEED someone. Big turnoff. Always appreciate, never smother. A tree can't grow with too much shade... and neither can a relationship.

YES, both nice women AND nice guys are effected by a challenge... and it has been my experience that the ones who claim the most not to like a challenge are the one who live for em' without realizing it.

 

Just look at 90% of the threads on LS.... resembling this...

 

"I met this girl/guy.... we fell in love the first week, we slept together... now he/she won't call me... why why why oh woe is me why???... I have had other dates with some girls/guys, but keep thinking about the ex who won't call.... why why why???... I don't like games or challenges, does anyone know what he/she won't call me?"

 

Blah....blah blah... the average person doesn't like a boring, predictable SO... so spice it up a little....

[champagne]

You have this theory that every once in a while a man has to treat a woman like crap by purposefully emotionally withdrawing, and that is adding an element of "challenge" to a relationship. That's manipulation, and that is not a good thing.

So you are basically saying if one of the partners in a relationship doesn't pull crap once in a while with their partner, it's boring, which is....well, wrong.

[Krytellan]

So you are basically saying if one of the partners in a relationship doesn't pull crap once in a while with their partner, it's boring, which is....well, wrong.

 

Opinion noted.

[Touche]

Sorry, but I didn't see your last post until after I posted mine. I didn't realize that you yourself don't subscribe to that nonsense.

 

How's it working for me? Wonderfully. Thanks for asking.

 

I guess I love "boring and predictable." Guess I'm not the "average" person that 2ndIINone refers to. Been there, done that on the other kinds of men. Those guys are for immature little girls, not women. I hate drama of any kind.

 

So you weren't really aloof, cold or an abuser with your wife? Weird that she would just come out with that so soon after you married. And I'm really not being sarcastic or judging. Some people are just nuts and don't really know what they want.

[2ndIINone]

I am at a loss for why people are coming in so aggressively. There must be something I said that struck a nerve with some of you.

 

You didn't say or ask anything wrong.... this is simply the way of LS...

 

History has always promoted the bad boy/jerk vs. the nice guy...

You NEVER hear anyone compare a badGIRL/Biotch with a nice girl.... so some took offense to your NICE "Girl" title/thread as expected... no big deal... most knew what you meant by it and know you didn't mean any harm... others just have to grow up.

 

Bottomline... if you have to present yourself as a challenge in an already existing long term relationship in order to keep the SO on their toes... then it might be time to move on....

 

Keep the dating challenges for the first six months of a new realtionship.

[Krytellan]

I guess I love "boring and predictable." Guess I'm not the "average" person that 2ndIINone refers to. Been there, done that on the other kinds of men. Those guys are for immature little girls, not women. I hate drama of any kind.

 

So you weren't really aloof, cold or an abuser with your wife? Weird that she would just come out with that so soon after you married. And I'm really not being sarcastic or judging. Some people are just nuts and don't really know what they want.

 

Yeah, I'd tell you what I think about her, but this is a family site and I won't waste the energy.

 

You know, I want to believe that to be true, that most women don't like challenges. I just can't ditch this nagging thought in the back of my head that it just true on a subconscious level. I could never feel comfortable acting this way, and as someone who has already failed in marriage once, I just want to be able to think that it's possible that someone who is truly kind to their partner can actually win in the end. I guess I'm just an eternal pessimist who is able to not let it affect his behavior. I think I just see so much dysfunction on a daily basis that it's hard to be optimistic about people sometimes.

 

I also know, that by the nature of this site, a lot people who post here are in troubled relationships. If you let yourself fall into the false notion that what you see on this site is reality, you're setting yourself up for bad behaviors.

[Touche]

Yeah, I'd tell you what I think about her, but this is a family site and I won't waste the energy.

 

You know, I want to believe that to be true, that most women don't like challenges. I just can't ditch this nagging thought in the back of my head that it just true on a subconscious level.

 

Well, you need to ditch that notion. It just doesn't work with the kind of woman you seem to want.

 

I could never feel comfortable acting this way, and as someone who has already failed in marriage once, I just want to be able to think that it's possible that someone who is truly kind to their partner can actually win in the end.

 

It IS possible. Don't stop thinking that it really is possible. Many of us have failed once at marriage. And many of us go on to find what we've looking for.

I guess I'm just an eternal pessimist who is able to not let it affect his behavior.

 

I don't believe that it doesn't affect your behavior. It really does. And it really affects your choice in a partner. I really believe that. You have to start being an optimist and EXPECT that you will find what you've been looking for. Don't get in your own way.

 

I think I just see so much dysfunction on a daily basis that it's hard to be optimistic about people sometimes.

 

Sure it's hard sometimes, but not impossible to do.

 

I also know, that by the nature of this site, a lot people who post here are in troubled relationships. If you let yourself fall into the false notion that what you see on this site is reality, you're setting yourself up for bad behaviors.

 

That's so true. Keep in mind that most of what you see here on LS is not an accurate picture of relationships as a whole.

[Aloros]

I really think these aloof tactics, the belief that ladies will always chase the bad boy - these are things that pertain to insecure girls, not women who know their worth. They are also things that do not pertain to a long-term, stable relationship.

 

I've been in a couple long-term relationships, one for nearly 6 years, and this one for nearly a year. In my first relationship, I felt like he put his friends first. I felt underappreciated and taken for granted. It was my first relationship, so I stuck around because I didn't know any better. I left eventually because I knew I was worth more than that.

 

There is certainly room for both partners to be appreciative in the relationship. I see my current bf every evening, every morning, and most of the weekend. We both are still good to one another. We help each other out, surprise one another with little gifts, and still take one another out on dates. He tells me how beautiful he thinks I am every single day. I've never stopped appreciating that. It's a two-way street. A relationship where one partner feels they must withhold affection, love, sex, whatever, to have the power, to get what they want, is a dysfunctional relationship to begin with.

 

Mind you, I've only had 2 ltrs, but the difference in the two leads me to believe that a good relationship is a meeting of equals, where each person has the other's back. It's being part of a team, the SAME team, working towards individual and common goals together. It's passionate, understanding, compassionate, and communicative.

 

As soon as you start playing games, as soon as you start withholding without communicating your needs first to your partner, as soon as you see your relationship as a struggle for power, you're putting you and your partner on opposite teams. You're working against one another, not with each other.

 

Let's not fool ourselves. When you're in a ltr, you're caught. It doesn't mean you have to stop wooing each other.

[Krytellan]

Let's not fool ourselves. When you're in a ltr, you're caught. It doesn't mean you have to stop wooing each other.

 

But we do. Why does it seem that one partner almost always inevitably shuts down on the other? The one statement from my original post that I truly internlize is that I really get a sense that there is not enough room in a relationship for two people to be pursuers, or wooers. I haved lived it several times, I see it over and over again. It is truly an anomily (sp?) when two people can maintain this state of mutual pursuit.

[alphamale]

I really think these aloof tactics, the belief that ladies will always chase the bad boy - these are things that pertain to insecure girls, not women who know their worth...

thats such baloney!

[Touche]

Aloros, I loved your post. It really underscored what I was trying to say. And you described my marriage which is in such stark contrast to my first marriage.

 

I once asked my ex why he hardly ever told me he loved me, and he said because the words would lose their meaning if he said it too much. So I guess his answer was to hardly say it at all. He also never kissed me hello when we came home from work or goodbye when we left in the morning. Maybe he thought a kiss would lose it's meaning too.

 

I got to the point where I really resented this withdrawal of affection. I'm a very affectionate and demonstrative person. I started playing his game. It was ridiculous and I felt empty and just like you said, not on the same team. After awhile we grew apart and the marriage ended in failure.

 

And you're right on to say that after you're "caught" it doesn't mean you stop "wooing" each other. That's what I was saying too. You still need to show that you don't take each other for granted.

 

Anyway, great post. Sounds like you have a very mature relationship. One that has all the earmarks of success.

[Aloros]

But we do. Why does it seem that one partner almost always inevitably shuts down on the other? The one statement from my original post that I truly internlize is that I really get a sense that there is not enough room in a relationship for two people to be pursuers, or wooers. I haved lived it several times, I see it over and over again. It is truly an anomily (sp?) when two people can maintain this state of mutual pursuit.

 

They say relationships are hard work, and this is probably why. I've seen quite a few relationships where both people are pursuers, and are able to maintain this state of mutual pursuit over decades (and they are still together). I think my parents are a great example. They've been married over thirty years, and they still do sweet things for one another. My dad still buys my mom flowers, she is still fiercely protective of him, and they both get one another more than one gift at xmas and sign them "Your Secret Admirer". They tell cute stories about how they noticed one another and how they started dating. Maybe it is just my family and the people I know, but I know more marriages and ltrs like this than unequal ones.

 

So if it IS possible (and even assuming it is an anomaly as you say), then why strive for anything less?

[Touche]

They say relationships are hard work, and this is probably why. I've seen quite a few relationships where both people are pursuers, and are able to maintain this state of mutual pursuit over decades (and they are still together). I think my parents are a great example. They've been married over thirty years, and they still do sweet things for one another. My dad still buys my mom flowers, she is still fiercely protective of him, and they both get one another more than one gift at xmas and sign them "Your Secret Admirer". They tell cute stories about how they noticed one another and how they started dating. Maybe it is just my family and the people I know, but I know more marriages and ltrs like this than unequal ones.

 

So if it IS possible (and even assuming it is an anomaly as you say), then why strive for anything less?

 

Wow, you're good! That's exactly what I was going to say to Kryt. Who wants what most settle for, right? Make your standards high. Mediocrity is not acceptable to some of us.

[hardcase]

Do even the sweetest, most mature, and no-games women need to be made to chase sometimes? Do even the women that don't give a hoot about the "rules" part of dating need a man to act aloof at times... just to make them work occasionally?

 

Within the confines of an already loving and commited relationship I mean.

 

Alot of women believe that a man should chase them.....if that is the case..what is the woman doing to hold up her end? Or is all the effort to fall on the man's shoulders?

[Touche]

Alot of women believe that a man should chase them.....if that is the case..what is the woman doing to hold up her end? Or is all the effort to fall on the man's shoulders?

 

What does the woman do? She lets herself be caught (if she's so inclined.)

[IpAncA]

Women do bore of men who are "easy" and don't make anything interesting. If they didn't, we wouldn't have the "bad boy" phenomena and marriages of 10 years wouldn't end because women just didn't "feel any passion anymore". Once a man is... oh, what's the best term here... in your pocket I think?, then there is little interest anymore. I know as with anything there are exceptions, but how many women can there possibly be that don't abide this "rule". Point 2.

 

Now with those ideas in mind, can you women honestly say that a man who provides no challenges and that can be counted on to do wonderful things for her on a semi-regular basis is not at some point a bore? Are you serious? Do you not really think that inserting an element of chase or being aloof can spark a desire in the woman to now seek what they expect rather than get it for just "being"?

 

Put aside the idealistic and romantic bullsh*t and try to be honest here. I challenge you to convince me otherwise.

 

Honestly I've done enough mental picking for today so I'm in no mood to deep infer your posts.

 

But if you want honesty I'll say I do not fit into once in the pocket, interest is lost. Quite the opposite. Why does it have to stop there?

 

Fact is, men and women both like to "chase" - sometimes - but men and women both like to feel safe. At times. The important thing, as both you and an earlier poster said, is that you feel like it's balanced; even if one person is doing the chasing sometimes, they shouldn't have to do it all the time. If you don't feel like there's a balance,

 

I agree.

[MissKissNada_Gal]

of course they do brother

"You do realize this girl is just 14?"

wut does this quote supposed to mean? just wondering.

[champagne]

Krytie, how come you jumped on my case then when I posted that none of the healthy, happy, long-lasting relationships I've had didn't involve games, pulling back and tactics, when in actuality, you agree that healthy relationships shouldn't involve these tactics?

[hardcase]

What does the woman do? She lets herself be caught (if she's so inclined.)

 

And she catches a man...so that is equal...so it still stands...is all the effort to be on the man's shoulders?

[Touche]

And she catches a man...so that is equal...so it still stands...is all the effort to be on the man's shoulders?

 

You're not making sense. In what way is all the effort on the man's shoulders? No one said it was but you. A man chases and a woman lets herself be caught. A woman lets it be known that she's interested just like a man lets it be known that he's interested. They end up with each other. So how is all the effort on the man's shoulder? Because he does the chasing?

 

Well, not ALL men chase. Some women do the chasing. If you don't want to chase then don't. But you might end up alone if you don't. It's your choice really. No one is making you do anything you don't want to do.

[Star Gazer]

It was simply a product of a long history of hearing and seeing examples of women getting bored with good men and leaving them to find a challenge.

 

Back to your question to me about why women leave good men for the bad boys...

 

The answer is simple. The "wooing" can never stop. Even if it's the tiniest little detail - such as the emails and compliments you want to now withhold - those things must remain in the relationship. He must continue to make efforts to make her feel special. If he stops, or if she feels his affections for her have diminished, she just might leave him for the "bad boy" because that "bad boy" is now chasing her.

 

Will women chase? Sure, SOME will. Some won't. With those that won't, doing anything to make her chase will surely 100% backfire. For those who do chase, or have in the past (myself included), if we're smart we've learnt that chasing a guy is never good. In every relationship where I was in any way the chaser, I was miserable from start to finish. I seriously will not do it again.

[Woggle]

If you continue to woo a woman she will say you are smothering her. I think that most women are impossible to make happy.