Is using a secret voice recorder in my spouse's car legal?

[Art_Critic]

I still get very nervous, however, when tapes that may constitute evidence of illegally recorded conversations are destroyed. Call me old fashioned..

Thanks for answering my post

 

I would too.. if it came out that the tapes were made then the presumption might be that they are damaging to the party who made the tapes and then they would weigh in a different light altogether..

 

When I got divorced my attorney requested me to tape every call.. so I bought a phone recorder and started recording them.. thruout a 7 month time I had a shoe box full of tiny little tapes..

In my state it is legal as long as one party in the conversation knows that it is being taped.

But I did have to disclose those same tapes in discovery.. or at least disclose that they existed.. my divorce was settled before I had to actually give up possession of the tapes.

[Herzen]

In this age of no-fault divorce, where grounds like infidelity and mental cruelty are often irrelevant, I question the relevance of most tape evidence in modern era divorce proceedings. It seems more trouble than its worth especially with state criminal prohibitions and invasion of privacy lawsuits.

 

But I'm not a family lawyer, so what do I know.

 

I do employment discrimination defense work, and we sometimes see wired plaintiffs with proof of discriminatory animus and harassment in taped conversations with co-workers or, worse, supervisors.

 

Ouch.

[Trimmer]

The tapes don't exist and I was posting to another posters question on why he would make the tapes, listen to them and then destroy them... the poster asked why destroy them.

 

The tapes at the point of being made are yours to destroy.. There is no civil proceeding filed.

Now if a civil proceeding is filed then you would be destroying evidence..

 

Now I know you are an attorney but tell me how destroying a tape that you make before any civil proceeding and your intent is to make it and destroy it then how is that obstruction of justice.

Because if, as I believe, based on a reading of the laws in my state, the act of intercepting and making the recording in the first place is a crime (not only an actionable civil issue) then the existence of the tapes would be evidence of that crime.

 

The reason I asked "why destroy?" is I had the sense that this advice was something akin to "do it, but don't get caught." Well, if the "doing it" is a criminal action right from the start, then doesn't destroying the tapes mean something different than if it is only a potential civil matter in the future?

 

Although I haven't reviewed either the case law or researched the judicial intent in my state, as Curmudgeon suggests, by a literal reading of the law that applies here it seems pretty clearly stated that the act of intercepting or recording the conversation without permission is both a crime ("Any violation of this statute is a misdemeanor"), and additionally is actionable in civil court ("Civil liability is expressly authorized for actual damages.")

 

Again, all my comments are related directly to the OP's original question in its context: a conversation was recorded without consent, in an environment where the parties arguably had an expectation of privacy. Was it illegal?

 

Now AC, if in your state, having the permission of at least one of the parties is sufficient to avoid criminal liability, and you were one of the parties to the conversation being recorded, then I agree that you are only exposed to civil action, and I accept your points in that context.

 

Its legal to do for your own proof. I don't know if its legal to use in court in a divorce case, but its not illegal to do it for your own purposes.

I disagree that it can be summarized this simply. Apart from any opinions being expressed on here (including mine, for that matter) I strongly urge you to check up on the laws for your state at the link Curmudgeon provided further up.

[quiet1one1]

 

On a side note, in light of what you've been put through...

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t115212/... I'm REALLY sickened once more by the absolutely disgusting behavior of the garden-variety adulterer...

 

Thanks LJ14. I'm impressed that you drew the connection between my threads. Your words mean a lot.

 

The taping situation I described was just hypothetical, of course. The end result is that I got the info I needed and told her only that I knew, had the proof necessary, and threw a few juicy tidbits into the conversation just for good measure.

 

So now what do I do to the OM? He has a wife and a young child. She deserves to her H preyed on a older woman, stumbling through the world looking for her lost identity, right? She has to know to beware of the possibility she may have been passed a STD (as I do), right?

[quiet1one1]

BTW, I am not looking for proof to use in any legal proceeding. It was for my own personal knowledge.

 

I simply needed to know so I could move on.

[Darth Vader]

BTW, I am not looking for proof to use in any legal proceeding. It was for my own personal knowledge.

 

I simply needed to know so I could move on.

 

 

So you're gonna divoce her, right? Was she pissed?

[Ladyjane14]

So now what do I do to the OM? He has a wife and a young child. She deserves to her H preyed on a older woman, stumbling through the world looking for her lost identity, right? She has to know to beware of the possibility she may have been passed a STD (as I do), right?

 

I can't tell you what to do about that, Quiet. If you were seeking to end the affair and using 'exposure' as a tool, I'd have no hesitation in recommending it in that capacity. If you're seeking retribution though, you have to search your heart and decide what you can live with. If you're seeking fairness for the OM's betrayed wife, you have to measure it by what YOU believe is correct and what you'd want to be told in her position.

 

Just between you, me, and the fencepost... I have no problem with exposing affairs for whatever reason. I'm not one to cover other people's lies up for them, but hey... that's me.

 

I will share with you a friend's experience. Her husband cheated with a co-worker, and after a couple of years trying to put it back together, she eventually opted for divorce. She's much happier today, but regrets the fact that she didn't expose at the time of her ex-husband's affair. Something like four years has passed though, and she's not comfortable with opening such an old can of worms. To her mind... the moment has passed. But still, she wishes she'd told the OW's betrayed husband. If for no other reason than the fact that she felt like he ought to know what he was married to.

[Ripples]

BTW, I am not looking for proof to use in any legal proceeding. It was for my own personal knowledge.

 

I simply needed to know so I could move on.

 

I understand that Q1. I'm glad you got the proof and I hope it helps you in your healing. Telling the OM wife may also help with that...

 

Either way, best wishes for a good outcome for you.

[RecordProducer]

It's not illegal, because you own the car, too, even if the title is in his name. Besides, it's totally irrelevant now that you caught him cheating. What is he going to do? Sue you? Even if sues you, there's no way anyone would sympathize with his right to have privacy to cheat. The US courts are very family-oriented and they certainly don't encouarge cheaters. I really don't see what you're afraid of. I would confront him with the evidence and if he would dare say "So you snooped on me?" I'd just say "Ys, I did!"

 

If you really want to screw him up, just leave him without telling him why. Tell him his dick is too small.

[nittygritty]

It's not illegal, because you own the car, too, even if the title is in his name. Besides, it's totally irrelevant now that you caught him cheating. What is he going to do? Sue you? Even if sues you, there's no way anyone would sympathize with his right to have privacy to cheat. The US courts are very family-oriented and they certainly don't encouarge cheaters. I really don't see what you're afraid of. I would confront him with the evidence and if he would dare say "So you snooped on me?" I'd just say "Ys, I did!"

 

If you really want to screw him up, just leave him without telling him why. Tell him his dick is too small.

 

RecordProducer is right if the car was purchased during the marriage it is usually considered a marital asset by the courts. You really do need to check out your state's laws if you live in the U.S.

 

Most state's have adopted no fault divorce laws and adultery usually does not effect property division, child custody or support.

 

I don't know how that you can get into any legal trouble over leaving a recording device in your vehicle. Since your spouse is unaware of being recorded than the tapes are not admissable in court as far as I know. I am not an attorney. I would recommend that you speak to one that is familiar with your state's laws and perhaps also speak to a private detective that legally meets your state's requirements to testify in court.

 

The majority of divorce cases are settled out of court. If I were you I wouldn't tell your spouse how you know. Just don't mention the tapes, if you haven't already and find out what your legal rights are from a divorce attorney where you live.

 

Keep looking for other evidence that are admissable in court. Credit Card Statements, Cell Phone Bills, Bank Statements, Home Computers and laptops usually contain a lot of helpful information.

 

Find out if there is any advantage of having proof of cheating other than in negotiating a settlement.

 

I'm sorry that your having to go through this mess.

 

Take Care

[outofdarkness]

after spending the last year feeling like a bull with all the red flags waving at me, i finally broke down and got the proof i needed by using a voice recorder in my spouse's car. my question is; is this legal? it's not like i'm going to admit to anything but i'd just like to know what i should and shouldn't say about how i got the proof.

Is your H an attorney? As far as I'm concerned, even if it IS illegal, it gave you the peace of mind in knowing what he is truly up to...I don't think he'd file a complaint, unless he IS an attorney or in some other legal field...YOU Have something on HIM too, remember?

[RecordProducer]

The original poster is a MAN. We all assumed that only a woman can put a voice recorder in the car...

 

And he wants to work on the marriage. I think his question was merely related to fear of being accused of snooping. Lemme tell you something about catching your spouse cheating through snooping: it's like if your child was bleeding to death and you broke the window of a pharmacy to get first-aid kit... and then worry about the crime you've committed. But not so tragic. Infidelity can be potentially life threatening, too.

 

In any case, snooping on your spouse and snooping on your neighbor is not the same. People actually have very few rights in a marriage. For example, if you bang his car with a hammer, he can't sue you for destroying his property (because it's yours as well), but the neighbor can. If you empty the joint accounts and confiscate your wife's credit cards and personal belongings - believe it or not, she can't do anything until she files for a divorce. A husband and wife are considered as one entity in the eyes of the legal system.

 

So, Quiet, don't worry about the law and worry even less about your moral rights. You had every right to snoop. She lied.

 

The comments you guys made about no-fault divorce and using the tape as evidence at court is irrelevant to what Quiet asked. He was concerned about breaking the law by recording her, not about whether the tape can be used at court.

[outofdarkness]

The original poster is a MAN. We all assumed that only a woman can put a voice recorder in the car...

 

And he wants to work on the marriage. I think his question was merely related to fear of being accused of snooping. Lemme tell you something about catching your spouse cheating through snooping: it's like if your child was bleeding to death and you broke the window of a pharmacy to get first-aid kit... and then worry about the crime you've committed. But not so tragic. Infidelity can be potentially life threatening, too.

 

In any case, snooping on your spouse and snooping on your neighbor is not the same. People actually have very few rights in a marriage. For example, if you bang his car with a hammer, he can't sue you for destroying his property (because it's yours as well), but the neighbor can. If you empty the joint accounts and confiscate your wife's credit cards and personal belongings - believe it or not, she can't do anything until she files for a divorce. A husband and wife are considered as one entity in the eyes of the legal system.

 

So, Quiet, don't worry about the law and worry even less about your moral rights. You had every right to snoop. She lied.

 

The comments you guys made about no-fault divorce and using the tape as evidence at court is irrelevant to what Quiet asked. He was concerned about breaking the law by recording her, not about whether the tape can be used at court.

Oops, sorry for the gender mix up...Will try to make an effort to read posts more carefully.

[Trialbyfire]

Y'all know my position on full-blown exposure, whenever possible, for assorted reasons.

 

An affair germinates in the dark recesses of the mind, feeding off manure and bloating with it's own self-justifications. If you completely expose it to the light of day, many times it will shrivel up and die.

 

I hope you do expose it, OP.

[RecordProducer]

Y'all know my position on full-blown exposure, whenever possible, for assorted reasons.

 

An affair germinates in the dark recesses of the mind, feeding off manure and bloating with it's own self-justifications. If you completely expose it to the light of day, many times it will shrivel up and die.

 

I hope you do expose it, OP.

I don't know your story, Trial. I don't know how anyone could keep such information for themselves. In another thread Quiet said he wanted to stay married so that assumes that he will have to discuss the affair with her. Hopefull she will end it.

 

Quiet, you don't have to tell your wife HOW you know. It will be "fun" to watch her defend herself with lies, not knowing that you have hard evidence.

[Trimmer]

So, Quiet, don't worry about the law and worry even less about your moral rights. You had every right to snoop. She lied.

 

The comments you guys made about no-fault divorce and using the tape as evidence at court is irrelevant to what Quiet asked. He was concerned about breaking the law by recording her, not about whether the tape can be used at court.

RP, I hear a contradiction here, then. I agree with you that Quiet was asking a specific question about the legality of the taping, and also that the questions of admissibility, etc are moot relative to that question. But then you tell him not to worry about the law and that he had every right to snoop - these don't come any closer to answering his original question of legality than those other posts you are commenting about.

 

It's not illegal, because you own the car, too, even if the title is in his name.

I don't agree that this follows. Possessing controlled substances isn't legal if it's in your own car; having an open alcohol container isn't legal just because it's your own car, assaulting someone is still illegal if you do it in your own car... My point is you need to look at the laws of your state to determine if it is illegal or not - those laws are generally pretty clearly written. (And they don't refer to whose property you are on or in when you do it...) The OP didn't ask - and I make no comment - about whether he "should" or "shouldn't", or whether it's useful emotionally or in his divorce negotiations, or admissible in various court proceedings or not.

 

My advice is twofold: check the actual laws of your state (http://www.rcfp.org/taping/ ), and don't take legal advice from an internet board.

[outofdarkness]

after spending the last year feeling like a bull with all the red flags waving at me, i finally broke down and got the proof i needed by using a voice recorder in my spouse's car. my question is; is this legal? it's not like i'm going to admit to anything but i'd just like to know what i should and shouldn't say about how i got the proof.

Hey...do u have pm priv. yet? Just wondering...If you do, could you please enable it? PM for private message...on LS

[RecordProducer]

RP, I hear a contradiction here, then. I agree with you that Quiet was asking a specific question about the legality of the taping, and also that the questions of admissibility, etc are moot relative to that question.

The question had nothing to do with court. It only had to do with whether it's legal or not to record the conversation. The court relevance refers to constructive application of the law - whether you can legally USE the tape as evidence. His question was whether it's legal to do it, period. I think the reason why he asked was because, for example, if my in-laws came to me with a tape saying they caught me saying something, I could simply tell them: "You guys broke the law by recording me and I am going to sue you and USE THE TAPE AS EVIDENCE against you!" So they can't use it against ME, but I can sue THEM for breaking the law.

 

I don't agree that this follows. Possessing controlled substances isn't legal if it's in your own car; having an open alcohol container isn't legal just because it's your own car, assaulting someone is still illegal if you do it in your own car...

OK, now two ignorant people are arguing about the laws in different states. Anyway... it's legal for you to put camera in your house and record your wife f*cking someone. It's illegal to put a camera in somebody else's house or a house that you own, but rent out to somebody else. It has nothing to do with drinking or killing somebody in your car. There are things you are allowed to do on your own property. You can drink in a car parked in your own property. If the car is officially Quiet's property then he didn't break the law.

 

It's illegal to break into somebody's mailbox or email account, but you're welcome to break into your spouse's mail as much as you wish. Until the day you're legally separated.

[Art_Critic]

it's legal for you to put camera in your house and record your wife f*cking someone.

 

RP.. you need to not be speaking of what you know nothing of..

You post is totally wrong..

 

This is the State of Georgia Law Code..

 

Read it..

 

It came from the link about 2 post above yours

 

Use of a hidden camera "without the consent of all persons observed, to observe, photograph, or record the activities of another which occur in any private place and out of public view" is illegal. Ga. Code Ann. § 16-11-62(2).

[Art_Critic]

RP..

Here is the state code for your state

A person commits a misdemeanor if he views, photographs or films another person in a state of full or partial nudity without consent, under circumstances where the nude person has an expectation of privacy.18 Pa. Const. Stat.§ 7507.1.

 

This also from that same link of Trimmers

 

The use of hidden cameras is covered only by the wiretap and eavesdropping laws if the camera also records an audio track. However, a number of states have adopted laws specifically banning the use of video and still cameras where the subject has an expectation of privacy, although some of the laws are much more specific. Maryland s law, for example, bans the use of hidden cameras in bathrooms and dressing rooms.

[RecordProducer]

You know the show "Cheaters"? They put camera in the house of the one who hires the TV crew. Their partner knows nothing about it. They wouldn't do something that's illegal on TV. They don't show the sex on TV, but they have it recorded with the consent of only one person. This is in NY.

 

The laws that you quoted are concerning a slightly different matter. It's not illegal for my husband to photograph my nude body while I am asleep in our home. It's illegal for him to publish or sell the photos.

[Art_Critic]

The laws that you quoted are concerning a slightly different matter. It's not illegal for my husband to photograph my nude body while I am asleep in our home. It's illegal for him to publish or sell the photos.

 

It is.....

 

This is the state code of LAW for YOUR state

A person commits a misdemeanor if he views, photographs or films another person in a state of full or partial nudity without consent, under circumstances where the nude person has an expectation of privacy.18 Pa. Const. Stat.§ 7507.1.

 

It doesn't say all husbands are the exception.

 

Asleep in your bedroom would carry the expectation of privacy

Now if you fell asleep nude on the front lawn then he could photograph you.

Marrying someone doesn't remove your rights to privacy RP

[RecordProducer]

A person commits a misdemeanor if he views, photographs or films another person in a state of full or partial nudity without consent, under circumstances where the nude person has an expectation of privacy.

So when my husband peeks behind the bathroom curtains and sees me taking a shower all nude - he is breaking the law?

[Trimmer]

The question had nothing to do with court. It only had to do with whether it's legal or not to record the conversation. The court relevance refers to constructive application of the law - whether you can legally USE the tape as evidence. His question was whether it's legal to do it, period.

I agree with you, and I think you'll find that I make this same point myself: "The OP didn't ask - and I make no comment - about whether he "should" or "shouldn't", or whether it's useful emotionally or in his divorce negotiations, or admissible in various court proceedings or not...."

 

My point about the contradiction was clumsy and I withdraw it.

 

...for example, if my in-laws came to me with a tape saying they caught me saying something, I could simply tell them: "You guys broke the law by recording me and I am going to sue you and USE THE TAPE AS EVIDENCE against you!" So they can't use it against ME, but I can sue THEM for breaking the law.

Aren't you agreeing with my main point here? I am saying that I believe it is against the law, and apart from you being able to sue them (implying civil action), I'm also claiming that they could conceivably be exposed to criminal prosecution (although realistically, the police and the prosecutors are probably not going to pay a lot of attention...)

 

There are things you are allowed to do on your own property.

Being "on your own property" is not a blanket exemption from criminal laws... More about this below.

 

In any case, snooping on your spouse and snooping on your neighbor is not the same. People actually have very few rights in a marriage. .... A husband and wife are considered as one entity in the eyes of the legal system.

 

 

OK, let's look at some case law here... From a New Jersey Court ruling:

"There is no reason whatsoever to allow spouses to perform non-consensual tortuous acts against each other than there is to allow them to perform them against third parties. The right of privacy extends within the confines of the marital home. It is not somehow dissipated into the air upon the taking of marriage vows. Moreover since the instant case involves a claim for civil damages arising from a taping designed to ‘prove’ marital infidelity, can it seriously be argued that a viable marital home or relationship exists. Rather, as is the norm in cases dealing with estranged spouses living under the same roof, the need for privacy is probably greater than under normal living conditions. A secretive taping of a spouse’s call under these conditions is an invasion in a most egregious fashion.”

M.G. Plaintiff v. J.C., Defendant, 254 N.J. Super 478 (Ch. Div. 1991)

 

(This quote is excerpted on the page at http://www.aaml.org/files/public/Gruber_-_Spying_On_Your_Spouse.htm; I claim "fair use" on this link as an information source, as this page has no advertisements, nor does it contain any clickable links to anything other than its own internal references...)

 

So I'm not claiming that this is the definitive and only word on the subject, but I believe it does show that these two arguments - (1) you can do what you want on your own property, and (2) people have few rights in a marriage, and the law only considers them as one entity - are not to be counted on as all-encompassing, blanket principles, as you are stating them, and indeed, specifically do not apply to intercepting and recording oral or wire communications, in New Jersey anyway, and I suspect in other states as well.

 

Another page at http://www.aaml.org/files/public/Gruber_-_Cybersex_Divorce-Wiretap.htm contains much overlapping information to the previously cited page by the same attorney, although this one also mentions a Federal case, Simpson vs. Simpson, in which the court created a "marital home" exception, similar to what RP is claiming. He goes on to state that this view is in the minority, and gives examples of courts in different states that have rejected the Simpson view in their findings.

 

Also, check the section on "COMMON-LAW TORT OF INVASION OF PRIVACY" in the first link above, which discusses issues that edge close to RP's "what about my husband peeking into the shower" example...

 

...now two ignorant people are arguing about the laws in different states.

About this, we most certainly agree - I'm sure there are a few lawyers lurking and giggling at us - thus my two-pronged advice: Check the laws for your state, and don't take legal advice from an internet board.

[quiet1one1]

Hey...do u have pm priv. yet? Just wondering...If you do, could you please enable it? PM for private message...on LS

 

Done - sorry it took so long.