White lies and jealousy

[Sheba]

You are "clever and articulate"? Is that a bad thing? Ha! I have heard the "you are not right, you just sound right" defense too. Not from my current husband, but from my first. My current husband is very articulate, but from where I sit he still does not sound right.

 

I think it would be very helpful if the counsellor would give your husband some tools to help him distinguish his subjective reality from yours. He needs to understand that your expressions of your feelings of violation of boundaries, for example, is real for you and to be respected and that it is not a hard fact that can be "disproven" by his different feelings. Our society seems to raise men in such a way that many don't learn empathy, which is such a powerful tool in a relationship.

 

I am also disappointed on your behalf that those "conflicting statements of reality" was glossed over. I know that the constant circle of "you're the best, you're the worst" is very, very hard to take. How can we believe anything that is said? If the cruel things are lies said in a moment of anger, maybe the loving things are lies said in a moment of kindness?

 

The list. I wrote that list of "problems in our relationship". My husband was supposed to write one too, but of course he did not. He comes to the sessions but he is a slacker when it comes to homework. Like you, I was able to write the list in a second - I wrote that from my point of view the problem was his anger (and I extrapolated a bit) and from his point of view the problem was my insecurity. I felt it was fair for me to express his point of view because he has stated it over and over.

 

It is good that you can discuss his mother as a "problem", but I tend to think that it is as touchy a subject as calling his "personality" the problem. He is likely to be defensive of her - it sounds as if she is his main cheerleader. It would be nice if you could get him to agree that the "mother-son" relationship should not be part of the marriage and that he should stick with the counsellor as his sounding board instead of mom.

 

It is interesting to me that you and I have might have the same problem but in a different manifestation: mommy. You see part of the sex problem as caused by the "cloud" of your mommy role. I see the anger problem as being caused by the fact my ex learned from his mom that women were cruel. It is really the same thing - just by virtue of being female we are being cast in the same role as mommy.

 

It may be that my counsellor has it right: the mother issues these men have need to be exposed to the light of day so that they can gain insight and learn to identify when they are transposing their feelings about their mothers onto us.

 

As far as your sex life goes, I have a few thoughts which you may find applicable and helpful, or not. I wonder if your husband perceives you as being too hard to please and himself as not "up to" the job? Perhaps it is just too much pressure? You say he was half-hearted in his foreplay efforts and I can almost see you rolling your eyes.

 

I also think that a person can become so trained to be responsive to a particular kind of touch - ie their own - that they become unresponsive to anything else. So, your husband may have trained his own body to respond to his hand and anything different may be short of the mark, just like his efforts were with you. I admit that I have often thought of getting myself some sort of masturbation tool - like a vibrator - but don't for fear of rendering myself less sensitive to my husband.

 

I seem to recall that your counsellor is a sex therapist, and that is a good thing. Your husband needs to build motivation and confidence. He is not asexual, or he wouldn't be in love with his hand. You are clearly almost at the end of the rope on this issue. I know how frustrating no sex can be and how it can put me in such a mood that I am barely able to think of anything else. I think it should go at the top of your list: mommy would be easier to take if you didn't have to contemplate how she screwed up your sex life, and learning how to please you would be a good lesson in "empathy" for your husband.

 

I wish you luck in controlling your anger and maintaining hope this week and hope your husband puts similar effort into tidying up his own messes. One week at a time, luvstared.

[luvstarved]

Sheba, you talked about the nice thing perhaps being lies said in moments of kindness. In my experience, they seem more to be lies said in moments of FEAR (of abandonment)!!!

 

But I did want to share this email exchange today. I don't know how sincere it is, but it certainly is new...

 

From me to him:

listen. I felt encouraged by the counseling yesterday but the truth

 

is that some of the issues that concern me have to be addressed in a thoughtful

 

honest mutually respectful way. I just can’t continue with sweeping things

 

under the rug, “focusing on the positive”, and trying to believe that my needs

 

and other things that tear out my insides on an almost daily basis are just

 

offshoots of my low self-esteem and negativity that I have to swallow. I can’t

 

just keep this going trying to have an attitude of “take the bad with the good”.

 

Of course, at some level, one has to do that, but you don’t just avoid the

 

difficulties by accepting the bad.

 

 

 

There is going to have be some give and take here. What I got from the book

 

suggests that what should happen is that you figure out what each needs, figure

 

out what each can give, and try to get to “good enough” by validating each other

 

while still not violating each other’s and one’s own boundaries. Does that make

 

any sense to you? I hope so.

 

 

 

I know that you say that you are happy and I know that you do not like to talk

 

about certain things. But for me, it has to happen.

 

 

 

I love you very very much and I am giving our marriage virtually all my energy right

 

now, believe it or not. I want to cut past all the bullcrap and get to the best friends

 

part. You could use a true best friend, and so could I. I know that we CAN be that

 

for each other, if we are both motivated and willing to do the work to understand

 

and accept and love each other enough to work together on MUTUAL happiness.

 

 

 

That’s my goal, that’s my hope.

 

 

His response (in multi part...there were "newsy" email bits in between so some cut and paste here...)

I was thinking the same thing. I was just replying when I saw this come up. It wasn’t long winded, I needed to hear that.

 

This has been consuming me too. I want more than anything to be best friends with you and I do need you to be my best friend, and me yours.

 

It relieved me greatly to hear that you love me very very much, I actually got choked up. I am very grateful that you have supported me and continued to love me. It means the world to me and I won’t ever forget it. I love you very very much too and will do anything for you. I have said many harsh things that I truly regret and am sorry about. There is nothing I want or have ever wanted more than to have the family we have. After just now talking with you I agree we are going in the right direction and [counselor] can and will help us

 

2nd email from him

 

I felt encouraged by the counseling too. I truly believe he will help us and has helped us. I love you and want to continue improving mutually.

 

As we grow together with give and take we can discuss our needs and I will do my best to meet your needs.

 

It makes a lot of sense and it can be fun to explore these needs, we will both benefit by this work.

 

I am happy and when I think you are not it does bother me. Things will change and I will step up the plate and do my best for you and for our family and for me.

 

I do believe you and as I’ve mentioned that means the world to me that you love me so much, I’ve always known you love me. I’m with you, I want to get to the best friends part too and I think we often are in that category but will continue to grow in this area. The kids will be gone before we know it and it’s you and me,that is a comforting thought because I can and have trusted you with my life. Maybe I’ve taken you for granted, I have often thought if something happened to you how much that scares me. I need you very much and sometimes have used the bravado that I really don’t need you. Please believe I do need you and have always loved you. For me to get married at such a late age proves it. I’m still growing up in many area’s and need your help.

 

I have never been more motivated for something and with us working together we make a pretty tough team to beat. I am convinced I made the right choice. There is nobody I would rather spend my life with.

Me again

 

Your words make me feel very hopeful...you need to believe that I intend to do everything

 

that I can do to make this work.

 

 

 

The counselor is right that we are two strong people, and he wasn’t talking about our smell

 

or stubbornness either!!! We should use that combined strength to carry us through the years

 

to come instead of wielding our own against each other.

 

 

 

It is very difficult to get to the point that I want to be at. I do not want to kid myself that we can

 

say these nice words to each other and then carry on as usual. I just can’t live like that anymore.

 

I might be a difficult person, but at least part of that is because I have a higher standard for

 

marriage than perhaps “most” people. It isn’t a ball and chain to me. It isn’t “She” or “He” who

 

“must be obeyed”. It isn’t having your own agenda and trying to skirt the difficulties with saying

 

what you think the other “wants to hear”. It isn’t giving up freedom and making sacrifices “for

 

someone else”. That is all the traditional stereotypical bull**** that I can’t stand.

 

Him again

 

Good, we have been through some difficult times and our love has held us together. I do believe you, sometimes when I get scared I say things I don’t really mean and wish I hadn’t.

 

Funny girl, I’m glad our sense of humor is intact. Although my S!@# is my S!@# and your S!@# is your S!@# we both need to cut the S!@# J

 

You’re really not a difficult person, I believe I understand you much better. I actually like the way you are, I really do, the way your reflective and respond to things. I’m sorry I haven’t said these things before, but like I said I probably took too much for granted. I barely have to pay attention when there is some important business issue in the family. I trust completely you will take care of it.

 

I have had various interpersonal problems that I have improved on and need to focus that on us more. These last weeks have made me realize more that ever how lucky I am. I will work at cherishing what I have.

 

We are strong people, things have not been easy for either one of us. We’ve come a long way. We speak our truth.

 

I ended the exchange with a Kahlil Gibran snippet:

 

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

 

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,

 

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

 

END OF QUOTES

 

If I am being absolutely honest, I think I smelt some deep relief in him that caused him to go a little over the top "We speak our truth". Since the F**K WHEN????? But, like I said, this is as good as I have ever gotten from him on the whole topic of us, so I am going to bask a tad longer.

 

We spoke on phone also and I assured him that his fear of me leaving was well founded although I swore I would never leave unless all hope was gone and that is true!! I also told him that I was dead determined not to let the big issues sleep...I told him we were going to have to ride through the hurricane before we could get to the blue skies and that he'd better brace himself!!!

 

Well he just walked in the door so I'd better get going...