Quote of the day

[shadowofman]

Once upon a time God required a blood sacrifice, typically in the form of animal sacrifice, to atone for sin. This was the vengeful god of the old book.

Then he decided that what he was asking of people was not right, so he created a son and sent him on a path of distruction to assuage his own thirst for blood. A new book was born.

The end of the story is my favorite. It is that there are no monsters under the bed and no daddies in the sky. There are no Odens or Thors, Kalis or Shivas, Zues' or Jupiters. No Heavens or Valhallas. No hells. No ghosts, spirits, souls. There is only earth and dreams in all of it's beautiful and nightmarish realities.

 

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium if the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand for the people to give up their illusions about their condition is to demand them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of woe, of which religion is the halo. Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain not so that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and cull the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.

-Marx

[Moai]

Okay, let me ask you several questions.

 

I know that you aren't addressing these to me, but I was asked via PM to respond here, so I will take a few moments and see what pops into my head.

 

Do you think porn is wrong? But in God's eyes it is terribly wrong, it is called "exploit others and impurity". Did you have sex out of marriage? if you do, it is sinful

 

I don't think that pornography is wrong. Some of the earliest forms of human expression depict the sex act. Look at some Greek urns, for example. That is neither here nor there, though. I find it funny that god would take time out of his busy schedule making atoms behave correctly and creating stars billions of light years away from Earth to worry about what people look at or what they do with each other when naked.

 

Do you forgive those who offend you? God forgives us many many times, and he teach us to forgive those who offend you. If you don't forgive them, then you are sinful.

 

It depends on the nature of the offense. If someone says something that I find offensive, or cuts me off in traffic I don't give it a second thought. But, if someone impugns my good name or threatens me physically, I react swiftly and mercilessly. It doesn't happen very often because this fact is well known about me IRL.

 

Are you ever malice to other people? Did you do something to hurt others? Did you take avengence? all these things are sinful

 

I can't see why, really. There are people who I absolutely can't stand, but it is a free country and I avoid if at all possible. I do take revenge when it is warranted, though. To not do so is counter-intuitive. And I have done things to hurt others, both accidentally and on purpose. Some I regret, some I don't. that is the nature of things.

 

If I hate someone but never do anything about it (which is most often the case) how is that a sin? What does it matter? Yet again, sin is thought-crime.

 

Can you love your enemies? Are you good to others ALL THE TIME? If you cannot love your enemies, you are sinful in God's eyes

 

I suppose I could love my enemies, but that would be counter-intuitive and self-defeating. But I am good to others ALMOST all the time. One does one's best. God isn't good all the time. He ordered the Hebrews to commit genocide against the Midianites and take their virgin women as sexual slaves a few thousand years ago. Are those Hebrew soldiers in Hell now? Was it a not a sin then but a sin now? Why does god change his mind on such things?

 

Do you cheat on your wife/husband? sinful

 

I'm not married. I don't cheat on my girlfriend, though. Such would be bad form and unethical, regardless of whether it is a sin or not. I agreed to not engage in intimate behavior with anyone else, so I don't.

 

Did you ever lie to others? sinful

 

Really? Recently a friend made dinner for a few friends, and I thought the salad was terrible. I lied and said I liked it, as there was no reason to make her feel bad and others seemed to be enjoying it. That was a sin? In any society it is impossible to be 100% honest all the time--and such would be harmful. I lie often to protect the feelings of others. While lying in and of itself is wrong, in some cases doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do.

 

You think you know what is right and wrong, it is called self-righteousness.

 

Huh? You are being self-righteous here. You claim to have interpreted the Bible correctly, and have put yourself in a position to inform others because you know better. That is the definition of self-righteousness, whether you think that you are getting your notions from god or not.

 

The fact is you get your morality the same way everyone else does. Imagine how you would like to be treated, and treat others that way is an excellent start, for example.

 

If you can be good to others ALL the time and love the one who offended you, didn't have sexual impurity in the past and will not do in the future, didn't lie one single lie in your whole life, did not look at a woman/man with lust in your heart, didn't have one single impurity thought in your mind, then probably you can be called a righteousness one. but I doubt it

 

Who cares about being "righteous" in the first place? I am a human being and not perfect, but I do my best to be a decent, kind person (as defined by my culture), and there are many people better at it than I, and many more worse. Big whoop.

 

I would also add that looking at another human being with lust in your heart is what keeps our species going. It feels good, it doesn't hurt anybody, and thus I cannot see it as negative in any way, regardless of what some wigged out shepherd thought about it.

 

That's why Jesus died for us. HE is the only one who isn't sinful on earth. But He conquered death, obey his heavenly father to die on a cross. We are so sinful that we cannot enter kingdom of heaven.

 

Uh-huh. In 50 billion years when the Universe starts to rip apart, what will happen to Heaven? In 5 billion years when our Sun goes nova, what will become of Heaven?

 

but whoever believe in Jesus and obey him will enter kingdom of heaven, that means we don't have to die. He conquered darkness, bring light to the world. He delivered captives, set them free (he tell us the truth).

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are going to die. It is inevitable.

 

whoever sinned is a captive of sin. It is easy to understand about this point. people who are addictive to drugs and porn, who love money, who keep to do adultery. they are all captives. they have too much flesh desires, and Satan exploit them through their earthly desires. but they'd rather be exploited by Satan than love good. But some people really didn't know about truth.

 

People who are addicted to feeling self-righteousness and having answers to things they couldn't possibly know about are in a kind of prison, too.

 

By God's standards, none of us can live. But Jesus paid the price for us. so we can live by having faith in Him and obey him. If you have a close relationship with Jesus, he will guide in all things and lead you to a eternal life. You will not be captive of devil, you will have freedom, love and peace in your heart.

 

Really? Why is it that in many cases those who have Jesus in their heart are on the wrong side of so many moral questions? Stem-cell resreach, slavery, persecution of unbelievers, restricting freedom of thought--shall I go on?

[lonelybird]

I don't think that pornography is wrong.

sinful

 

But, if someone impugns my good name or threatens me physically, I react swiftly and mercilessly.

sinful

 

I do take revenge when it is warranted, though. To not do so is counter-intuitive. And I have done things to hurt others, both accidentally and on purpose. Some I regret, some I don't. that is the nature of things.

sinful

 

I lie often to protect the feelings of others. While lying in and of itself is wrong, in some cases doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do.

sinful

 

Huh? You are being self-righteous here.

I check myself with God everyday

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are going to die. It is inevitable.

You give yourself too much power, how can *you* burst my *bubble*? if so, my *bubble* will break long ago.

 

From above list, you are still far from the *good* God wants us to be. Keeping working or surrender and let God teach you

[lonelybird]

.......

-Marx

After you really live in those countries who practice Marx's theory, then we can further discussion

[shadowofman]

No country has ever really practiced Marx's theory. If there was one, I'd be there now. He speaks of economics and liberty. Maybe you confuse him with Stalin.

If you want something a bit more homegrown, how about these then?...

 

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

 

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

 

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

-John Adams, U.S. President, Founding Father of the United States

 

"If there is a God, he is a malign thug."

- Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist (1835-1910).

 

"I was born a heretic. I always distrust people who know so much about what God wants them to do to their fellows."

- Susan B. Anthony, American suffragist (1820-1906).

 

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[lonelybird]

No country has ever really practiced Marx's theory.

Not true! there are many countries who practice Marx's theory. Marx's theory is their text book in school. and other religions are forbidden

[Moai]

sinful

 

 

sinful

 

 

sinful

 

 

sinful

 

 

I check myself with God everyday

 

I'm sure. Billions of people do, too, but their god isn't Jesus. Why have you no explanation for that, ever?

 

You give yourself too much power, how can *you* burst my *bubble*? if so, my *bubble* will break long ago.

 

I give myself the same credit you do, insofar as you think that you can educate people on the real meaning of scripture. Tell me, which divinity school did you attend? What are your credentials?

 

From above list, you are still far from the *good* God wants us to be. Keeping working or surrender and let God teach you

 

I am aware that I am quite far from the "good" person that most "born-again" Christians would describe. That doesn't worry me in the least. Nor should it anyone else.

 

I am not a good person as far as Shinto is concerned, either. Or Islam (I am worse in the eyes of Allah than I am Jesus, in fact). None of that bothers me in the slightest.

 

Do you undergo baptism after your monthly cycle? No? Sinful.

 

Do you wear a veil? Sinful.

 

Do you talk in church? Sinful.

 

If you listed every single sin in every single religion you'd never be able to do anything. I know I am a good person by any rational definition, and also by the culture in which I live. I have never been convicted of anything more serious than a traffic violation. Why worry about anything else?

 

I ask again what the Bible tells you (or god when you talk to him) about the eventual death of our solar system.

[shadowofman]

There are no, nor have there ever been any true Marxist countries. Please, I would love for you to name me one. I will admit that Marx has inspired dozens of politicians, but his theories were always perverted in an effort to consolidate power of government. The true purpose is to elevate the power of the people. That is why we dn't refer to the Soviet Union as a Marxist state. It was Stalinist. Then Leninist. You also have Maoists and on and on. They took alot of ideas from Marx, but you can not call them Marxist countries, sorry.

No comment on the American quotes?

Bet you thought this was a Christian nation.

[lonelybird]

No country has ever really practiced Marx's theory. If there was one, I'd be there now. He speaks of economics and liberty. Maybe you confuse him with Stalin.

If you want something a bit more homegrown, how about these then?...

 

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

 

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

 

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

-John Adams, U.S. President, Founding Father of the United States

 

"If there is a God, he is a malign thug."

- Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist (1835-1910).

 

"I was born a heretic. I always distrust people who know so much about what God wants them to do to their fellows."

- Susan B. Anthony, American suffragist (1820-1906).

 

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

I don't care what president or scientist said, I know from my spirit, and Holy Spirit confirms me. You see, my faith isn't based on what people think, my faith base on what GOD say and what Holy Spirit say and what Bible say.

[shadowofman]

I don't care what president or scientist said, I know from my spirit, and Holy Spirit confirms me. You see, my faith isn't based on what people think, my faith base on what GOD say and what Holy Spirit say and what Bible say.

How do you know you God say the bible?

How do you know that the Book of Mormon isn't the word of God?

How do you know that it wasn't just some con-man alchemist/seer/politician that wrote it 2000 years ago?

And what about the other books that church leaders decided not to include?

Anyone that says they speak to God, you are either a liar or crazy.

It doesn't matter if the voices are telling you to hijack a plane or give money to a bum. Equally crazy. Equally a lie.

If you say that you "feel" god's will in your heart, well, your not being honest with yourself. It's a dilution. What you "feel" is your own personal idea of morality and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

If you think sex without emotional connection is immoral, than so be it. Preach it sister! But when you quote scripture, you are turning a lot of people off to your arguement. Even the ones that agree with you.

[lonelybird]

Preach it sister! But when you quote scripture, you are turning a lot of people off to your arguement. Even the ones that agree with you.

How can you preach without scripture? God's words is powerful and alive, and can enter people's heart.

 

I am not selling a car, that I must make the car desirable.

 

many people will be turned off by words of God, because they love darkness more than light and goodness. some don't like the *rules*. It is normal, that means our flesh still take dominion on people rather than spirit. the more you spend time with Lord and Holy Spirit, the more you will love the words of God, like living water enter heart, cool and peaceful:) and everything born from it.

 

How do I know God say Bible? because God led me to read Bible, Holy Spirit confirmed many things about Jesus. God is in control of everything, the Bible was inspired by Spirit of God. Holy Spirit never told me to do bad things or hurt people, but told me to treat others well, just like the Bible required.

[shadowofman]

How do I know God say Bible? because God led me to read Bible, Holy Spirit confirmed many things about Jesus. God is in control of everything, the Bible was inspired by Spirit of God. Holy Spirit never told me to do bad things or hurt people, but told me to treat others well, just like the Bible required.

But, how do you know that God inspired those people to write the bible? How are you certain that the devil didn't write it to trick you? How do you know that the people that wrote it weren't just making it up as they when along, or that they weren't just crazy themselves? If you saw a person walking down the street talking to invisible people, you would think them crazy. How do you know that it was God that led you to the bible and not just yourself? your family? your culture? If God is in control of everything, why did he create a son, and then have him killed in order to releave us of our sin, which he created in the first place? Why wouldn't he just forgive our sins without Jesus? It's a lame story and I really can't understand how anyone can possibly believe it. Seriously, the most rediculous thing that anyone has ever tried to force upon me. Even if you could believe such a thing, why in the world do you care if other people sin? Don't you believe that they will get what's coming to them in the end. On a cloud before a gate or something silly like that. Quite wasting your time on fantasy! There is a real world right infront of you and your wasting your time in it. It's a very good thing to have morals and no one should tell you that your morals are wrong, but don't pretend that the only reason your not a murderer is because your afraid of judgement. You are not a murderer because you are innately, morally opposed to killing someone. You are not a "whore" because you are opposed to sex without emotional attachment. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't go telling others that they have to abide by your notions. And don't tell us that you hear or feel the presence of the supernatural being because it's unbelievable. Like I said, you are either a lier or your dilusional. Be honest with yourself! I don't think your head would explode if you realized that your mind is a symptom of chemical reactions that are occuring in a very intricate nervous system. If you bump your head too hard, you may damage the brain and your reality would change forever. That's because you are your brain. You are nothing like a soul. You don't exist before you are born, or after you die. THIS IS REALITY! And the worms eat your meat like they have done for millions of years!!!

[lonelybird]

But, how do you know that God inspired those people to write the bible? How are you certain that the devil didn't write it to trick you? How do you know that the people that wrote it weren't just making it up as they when along, or that they weren't just crazy themselves?

What kind of *devil* will trick to people to "love your neighbor as yourselves"?

 

Because Holy Spirit told me so. If there is a invisible being living inside of you, you can feel him. He grieves when I grieve; he is joy when I joy; He back me up when I am weak, just as Lord said to Paul "my grace is enough for you when you are weak". and HE will rebuke me when I do something wrong, I thought this invisible being is my ego or something, but not at all. HE is justice, I thought HE only protect me, but when I did something wrong to others, He obvious wasn't happy.

 

How do you know that it was God that led you to the bible and not just yourself? your family? your culture?

Because there are too many perfect coincidences. and Holy Spirit led me to like certain things and dislike another things when I read about religions. My culture and my family has nothing to do with Christianity. I am the first one who believe in God. Thank God's mercy. I have many mysterial experiences, I tried to find out in psychology, which Maslow's book mentioned about this a little bit, but he cannot explain it. Finally I found it out in Bible, and everything began to make sense.

 

If God is in control of everything, why did he create a son, and then have him killed in order to releave us of our sin, which he created in the first place? Why wouldn't he just forgive our sins without Jesus? It's a lame story and I really can't understand how anyone can possibly believe it.

Human is born of sinful nature. God punish bad but encourage good, He is control of direction of humanily. Jesus is God's words. Jesus came to teach us God's words, he is perfect yet died for us, but whoever believe in him and obey him will not perish.

 

Even if you could believe such a thing, why in the world do you care if other people sin?

Because Lord cares, Lord wants to save souls from hell, Lord calls people to him. And we are those who are willingly to be used by Lord.

 

Don't you believe that they will get what's coming to them in the end. On a cloud before a gate or something silly like that. Quite wasting your time on fantasy!

It's not a fantacy. It is real. We know our destiny. Heaven is beautiful.

 

There is nothing wrong with that, but don't go telling others that they have to abide by your notions.

It's not my notions. It's God's. If you turn to God, live a godly life, you will go to heaven; if opposite, you will go to a place where seperate from God without light, without love

 

And don't tell us that you hear or feel the presence of the supernatural being because it's unbelievable. Like I said, you are either a lier or your dilusional. Be honest with yourself! I don't think your head would explode if you realized that your mind is a symptom of chemical reactions that are occuring in a very intricate nervous system. If you bump your head too hard, you may damage the brain and your reality would change forever. That's because you are your brain. You are nothing like a soul. You don't exist before you are born, or after you die. THIS IS REALITY! And the worms eat your meat like they have done for millions of years

I can understand why you said this. If I were you, I would say the same:).

[Moai]

What kind of *devil* will trick to people to "love your neighbor as yourselves"?

 

Interesting question. You assert that Jesus is god, and that he, and only he can save us from eternal torment, any other religion would by definition be Satanic--or at the very least lead people away from the "truth". Is that not so?

 

If that is so (which I know it is, at least for Christians), the devil uses this to trick everyone in every major religion on Earth--and used it long before Jesus walked the Earth.

• Ancient Egypt.- circa 2000 BCE “Do for one who may do for you, That you may cause him thus to do.” - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110,
  
• Hebrew Bible - circa 700 BCE “You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD.”
  
• Zoroastrianism.- circa 600 BCE “That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self.” - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
  
• Buddhism.- circa 500 BCE “Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” - Udana-Varga 5:18,
  
• Confucianism.- circa 500 BCE “What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.” Analects of Confucius 15:24,
  
• Socrates.- circa 400 BCE “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others."

Notice, too that the version in the Torah (the Old Testament) it specifies "countrymen" not just other people. That means treat other Hebrews using the Golden Rule, but you can treat anyone else any way you want. Notice that out of every single example, Jehovah (Jesus' dad) manages to pervert the idea and make it less beautiful.

 

Because Holy Spirit told me so. If there is a invisible being living inside of you, you can feel him. He grieves when I grieve; he is joy when I joy; He back me up when I am weak, just as Lord said to Paul "my grace is enough for you when you are weak". and HE will rebuke me when I do something wrong, I thought this invisible being is my ego or something, but not at all. HE is justice, I thought HE only protect me, but when I did something wrong to others, He obvious wasn't happy.

Or it could be the devil telling you that, and making you feel that way. Think about it: wouldn't the devil make his side SEEM attractive and good? Very, very few people do things that hurt themselves or others intentionally. The devil would seem to be the nicest guy you have ever met. He'd be really good looking, and he would always understand you and make everything seem fine.

 

More people think that Jesus wasn't god than believe that he was.

 

Surah 5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

 

"Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them" (Surah 9:30)

 

The spirit of Allah (pbuh) is speaking to billions of people right now and telling them that you are a devil-worshiping infidel. In their mind, you are being misled.

Because there are too many perfect coincidences. and Holy Spirit led me to like certain things and dislike another things when I read about religions. My culture and my family has nothing to do with Christianity. I am the first one who believe in God. Thank God's mercy. I have many mysterial experiences, I tried to find out in psychology, which Maslow's book mentioned about this a little bit, but he cannot explain it. Finally I found it out in Bible, and everything began to make sense.

There aren't any perfect coincidences, actually. Go ahead and name some. The vast majority of "predictions" in the Bible canbe construed as to predict anything. The Bible is totally wrong about the shape of the Earth, how the Earth was created, how humans came to be, and wrong on specific questions of morality. Fine if you don't think so, but to claim such a definitive position on no evidence is dangerous, and it would seem would be something that the devil would want you to do.

 

Human is born of sinful nature. God punish bad but encourage good, He is control of direction of humanily. Jesus is God's words. Jesus came to teach us God's words, he is perfect yet died for us, but whoever believe in him and obey him will not perish.

Sin is largely defined by culture, though.

 

Because Lord cares, Lord wants to save souls from hell, Lord calls people to him. And we are those who are willingly to be used by Lord.

Hell he himself created. If he really wanted to save souls, he would just give everyone a pass, wouldn't he? God can do whatever he wants, so obviously he doesn't want to.

 

Not only that, I find it incredible that you think a being that created the Universe, something so vast that the news of Jesus being crucified hasn't even left our galaxy yet (if such is traveling at the speed of light, the fastest speed there is) cares what you think. He actually cares if you look at someone and imagine them naked.

 

So God takes time out from making sure matter behaves correctly and that hydrogen atoms combine the right way, that stars are forming correctly, etc. to worry about if I am thinking about the chick in my biology class. And you have called me arrogant and self-righteous!

 

Where is Heaven, exactly? Is it in our galaxy? In another? How long does it take for our souls to get there (well, not mine certainly, but...)? Is that story in the Bible of the men building that Tower in Babel just a neat story to explain all the different languages humans use, or was it literally true? And, if true, can't we say that they were wasting their time, as the Tower would have to stretch far beyond our solar system? Also, since there is no way that a tower COULD reach Heaven, why would god worry about destroying it?

 

It's not a fantacy. It is real. We know our destiny. Heaven is beautiful.

It could be real, that is true. But it probably isn't, especially considering there is no evidence for Heaven, everyone has a different concept of what its like, and we can't find it in the Universe anywhere. And, as I have said before, the Universe will rip apart in about 50 billion years. What happens to Heaven at that point?

 

If Heaven is in another dimension, you have to show that there ARE other dimensions that take up space/time, and that said dimension is independent of the Universe itself. Until you can do that (and there is no way you ever can) you cannot rationally claim that Heaven is real. You believe that you know your destiny, but that is disingenuous at best. You cannot possibly know what happens when we die. I don't. But I strongly suspect that nothing happens. And all the evidence we have suggests this.

 

You interpret reality with your senses. In fact, the world that you interact with is a construct in your brain and barely describes the reality you are in. How can you have experience without your senses and your brain?

 

Oh, right, we have a "soul." Where does the soul come from? When does it enter the body? If it enters at conception, what happens when the zygote divides into two separate embryos? Do the indentical twins that result share a soul? Or what about a "chimera"? That is where two separate zygotes merge into one, and it is not uncommon. You, me, or someone you know may have begun this way. Does the person resulting have two souls? If not, what happens to the other soul in that case? What does the Holy Spirit say about it?

 

The Bible says that the soul enters at conception, it is true. Obviously the person who wrote that was completely ignorant of embryology. How can that be, since god inspired the author? Surely god is the greatest expert on embryology in the Universe, no?

 

It's not my notions. It's God's. If you turn to God, live a godly life, you will go to heaven; if opposite, you will go to a place where seperate from God without light, without love

Uh-huh. But, if I embrace Islam and follow its precepts and die defending my faith, I get to go to a place with 72 virgins waiting for me. That sounds like a pretty good deal. Maybe I'll become a Muslim. They have just as much chance of being right as you and I like their description of Heaven better.

 

I am sure that you "know" that people who believe that are being misled, and that's fine. But there is no doubt that their "holy spirit" makes them certain--so certain that they fly planes into buildings, or drive Jeeps into airports, or blow themselves up on schoolbuses. It seems to me that they are even more convinced by their concept of Heaven than you are.

 

I can understand why you said this. If I were you, I would say the same:).

It is a fact that your body will die. It is a fact that you will decompose eventually, and your body will enrich the soil and carrion that feed on rotting flesh. I am sure you think that your soul will be happily swimming around the ether with Jesus while that is happening (unless the Rapture happens), but there is zero evidence for that. Whether it makes you happy or not.

[lonelybird]

Moai,

 

If you want to crash my faith, you definitely waste your time here.

 

I saw prayer worked supernaturally, I feel God's love, I feel God's grace in my Spirit, I feel invisible being who is light and love and hope:love:, I saw myself changing, my family changing. You don't understand, where is Holy Spirit, where is freedom, where is rejoice, and it happens within, the world won't see because he is living inside of us who believe in God.

 

Praise God:bunny:

[Moai]

Moai,

 

If you want to crash my faith, you definitely waste your time here.

 

Interesting. First off, it isn't about crashing your faith, it is about truth. The truth is that you cannot possibly know what you claim to, let alone how adamantly you claim it.

 

Also, I find it interesting that you admit that nothing will cause you to doubt your faith. This is precisely the problem with faith--all faith--and makes it so dangerous and evil. If they find a rabbit fossil in the pre-Cambrian tomorrow I will abandon evolution as an explanation for the diversity of life we see right then and there. And that is just one example. Can you conceive of an instance that would cause you to abandon your notions about god? By your above statement, and others, I think not. What's worse, you came to your conclusions based on no evidence. Am I the only one that finds unshakable certainty in things that are unprovable, unknowable, and arbitrary frightening?

 

Many mistake my passion for Fundamentalism, and that is not so. I am passionate about being rational, true, but the beliefs I hold by being rational are open for change or outright dismissal at any moment. Yours, and those of most believers are not.

 

I saw prayer worked supernaturally, I feel God's love, I feel God's grace in my Spirit, I feel invisible being who is light and love and hope:love:, I saw myself changing, my family changing. You don't understand, where is Holy Spirit, where is freedom, where is rejoice, and it happens within, the world won't see because he is living inside of us who believe in God.

 

Praise God:bunny:

 

Ok. That really says nothing. Someone who thinks the Koran is the Word of God says exactly the same thing. You never, ever address this (shocker) but the fact remains that what you are so certain of, what provides so much comfort and changes so many lives (in your mind) is not accepted by most people on Earth.

 

That is not to say that everyone is an atheist except for Christians. Muslims are certain that Jesus was a prophet only, and that he was not the Son of God, and saying so is Satanic and evil. And, because you believe that, they hope Allah will destroy you. Many of them think that Allah wants them to destroy you even at the cost of their own life.

 

How can you be so certain that you worship god and not something evil, in that event? Isn't there even a slim chance that you could be wrong? If not, how do you know that they are so wrong, since you don't read their book, attend their services, etc.?

 

What will you do when a Caliphate rules your town? WIll you wear the veil, attend Muslim services, stay home and tend your family, take beatings from your husband without complaint, no longer listen to music, destroy all the art in your home, and on and on? Make no mistake, that is exactly what your opposites endeavor to achieve. Will you actively fight back, or what?

 

Consider Dominionists in the US. They want to do the same thing, but in the name of your god. Granted, the beatings and the veil won't be around, but control of art, music, and culture will come from religious leaders. If just so happens that your beliefs about god and yours are the same, but they are not the same as Catholics. Will you force Catholics to worship as you do, to abandon the doctrine of Transubstantiation, etc.? Why not? The First Commandment says that there shall be no god but yours. That is pretty definitive. Isn't it your duty to stamp the others out, and to make sure everyone worships the right way? If not, why not?

 

If Jesus is the only way, by your way of thinking aren't you helping people by censoring things, as they will not be so easily led astray?

 

And then there is how I think. I don't care what people believe as long as they leave me alone. The law should be used to protect that idea above all else. Freedom of thought is paramount.

 

The faithful don';t leave me alone, unfortunately. They pass laws based on their unsubstantiated notions, all because they are so certain their beliefs are right. That too would be fine, if one could even discuss it. But when I come on these boards (and others) I am being rude by not respecting someone's faith. But why should I respect it? There is not one good reason. Somehow faith is seen as beyond criticism, and even thought of as a positive thing--as if believing things based on no evidence is something we should encourage! Does nobody else find that hilarious--and horrifying?

 

How can such a thing possibly be described as good and beneficial?

[Moose]

But when I come on these boards (and others) I am being rude by not respecting someone's faith. But why should I respect it? There is not one good reason.

This speaks VOLUMES to me about your respect towards your fellow man/woman. You'd prefer that all believers be destroyed wouldn't you?

What's worse, you came to your conclusions based on no evidence.

I grow extreeeeemmmmlllllly tired with your pompous statements. It's not your call to say that our experiences aren't proof. They are proof to us, and that's all that's required. It is also not your place to publicly try to denounce our faith, and replace it with your, "truth" unless you have a complex of being intellectually superior to those who place their faith in God. (my personal opinion is that this is the case)

 

Noone is forcing you to believe in God. So why are you trying your hardest to denounce Him? OH......I remember:

They pass laws based on their unsubstantiated notions

Noone is forcing you to stand under any government. It wouldn't hurt anyone's feeling if you bought your own island and worship whatever god you deem fit.....

 

I love the, "Quote of the day" thread.....you loathe it because goes against, "your" grain.....if that's the case....why not just ignore it!

[Moai]

This speaks VOLUMES to me about your respect towards your fellow man/woman. You'd prefer that all believers be destroyed wouldn't you?

 

No, not at all. But I find it odd that these beliefs are somehow sacred or beyond criticism. That's all. I don't want to destroy alchemists, astrologists, Wiccans, or whatever. But I would like some honesty and evidence. To be so certain about something that you could not possibly be is disingenuous, and dangerous.

 

I grow extreeeeemmmmlllllly tired with your pompous statements. It's not your call to say that our experiences aren't proof. They are proof to us, and that's all that's required.

 

It isn't ME. There are rules for evidence. I didn't make them up. And you use them yourself all the time, but in this one area you resent them, choose to ignore them, or at least suspend them.

 

Tell me: Why is the evidence supporting Islam incorrect? What standard do you use to determine that Islam is wrong and Christianity is correct? I have asked this of you before, and also many other Christians and I never get an answer. Why am I not surprised?

 

Muslims are just as certain as you, and use the EXACT SAME evidence as you. How can they be wrong, in that case? Your book says that they are wrong. Their book says you are wrong. The Vedas say you are both wrong. If I do indeed have a soul, and what I think and beleive determines where it goes upon my death, shouldn't I try to make the best decision possible? Surely I shouldn't just take someone's word for it; it's eternity, after all.

 

What is proof to YOU isn't proof at all, no matter how secure it makes you feel.

 

Who is really being pompous? You have suggested that you and those of your ilk are the only ones capable of determining the meaning of today's events, that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, etc. You KNOW these things, and you expect me just to take your word for it--just because you assert it. Isn't that pompous? Why am I doing something wrong by asking you for a single shred of evidence to support your position?

 

It is also not your place to publicly try to denounce our faith, and replace it with your, "truth" unless you have a complex of being intellectually superior to those who place their faith in God. (my personal opinion is that this is the case)

 

Of course that is your position. Because you are in a weak position rhetorically, you choose to use what little you know of my personality to dismiss what I write--since you cannot do so otherwise.

 

It isn't my "truth" it is a way of interacting with the world, and determining truth. Tell me: Why is wrong for me to sleep with and impregnate my 12-year old cousin? Can you show me ONE scripture that tells me that is immoral? Nope. Now, you and I both agree (I hope) that such is wrong. I know how I reached that conclusion. How did you?

 

And I am not intellectually superior per se, but I am not making using fallacious reasoning and ad hominem arguments to support my position.

 

All we are doing is exchanging in a dialog right now. Nothing more seriuos than that. Yet, because we are discussing your precious faith in magical beings, I am stepping on too many toes and being pompous and "intellectually superior" or something. Why? Why is your faith so special? Just because it is yours?

 

I doubt you would riase an eyebrow if I came in here discussing why Wicca is based on no evidence (which it is). Or would you get all fired up and defend the beliefs of Wiccans and say that nobody should challenge them?

 

Noone is forcing you to believe in God. So why are you trying your hardest to denounce Him?

 

Yes, they are. Lonelybird has this thread, "quote of the day". I was ignoring it, as I don't really care what she says to people, but other members PM'd me and asked that I make a few comments, so I have. Sorry that there are others who find her posts inane, frustrating and arrogant, but they do. I don't, I find them silly but that is not the point.

 

If you notice, Ignore most of the threads in this section. That's because I don't care what others believe, really. Others I don't, and I have started a few of my own when I think it is appropriate, and it addresses specific problems that exist with faith.

 

Why did you respond to my "Answered Prayer" thread. Given that you are so all-fired certain about Jesus (which is by definition pompous), why do you care that others aren't?

 

OH......I remember:Noone is forcing you to stand under any government. It wouldn't hurt anyone's feeling if you bought your own island and worship whatever god you deem fit.....

 

At last the truth is out! Thank you so much. I gather that you think God gave the US to Christians to be his light in the world, and that we are based on Christian values and all that other nonsense. Super!

 

Let's see, though. I was born in the US, as I presume you were. I have all the rights you do. I can vote, and I take an interest in shaping the laws and culture of the US, as every citizen should. I fight to change what I see as wrong and work to support that which is right.

 

Why can't I stay here and worship and god I see fit--or none? Oh, right, it's because the US is a Christian nation and you are best at running it. Forget that the Constitution guarantees my right to do so and prevents you from forcing your religion on other people. That isn't what the Founders meant, right?

 

Tell me: Why is it that Wallbuilders has to lie? Why do people like D. James Kennedy have to fabricate quotes? My history professors never made anything up. In fact, to make any assertion the required *shock* EVIDENCE. If I quoted Jefferson, say, I had to list where I got the quote, when he said it et al. Kennedy, knowing that most of the people he talks to don't understand evidence so they'd never check. But, someone obviously did, he and others get caught, and their true stripes are revealed. Sadly, they STILL USE THOSE QUOTES.

 

Lastly, why should I leave? Why don't you leave? You call me pompous? Who gave you this country and the right to decide who should or shouldn't live here? Oh yeah, god did. Sorry, I forgot.

 

I love the, "Quote of the day" thread.....you loathe it because goes against, "your" grain.....if that's the case....why not just ignore it!

 

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from telling me how I feel. Or did god give you insight into that too? God only knows (joke intended) how you arrive at your conclusions...I don't loathe this thread. I am having fun here, too. And I was ignoring it, I was asked by others members to share my thoughts. Read my first post.

 

If I want to engage in activity (between consenting adults) that you find immoral, why not just ignore it? Why make laws against it? Why don't you ignore my posts, or ignore my Answered Prayer thread? What is so wrong about me expressing my opinion in an open forum--a forum set up for the purpose?

[lonelybird]

1 John

 

5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah is a child of God; and whoever loves a father loves his child also.

 

5:2 This is how we know that we love God's children: it is by loving God and obeying his commands.

 

5:3 (*)For our love for God means that we obey his commands. And his commands are not too hard for us,

 

5:4 because every child of God is able to defeat the world. And we win the victory over the world by means of our faith.

 

5:5 Who can defeat the world? Only the person who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

 

5:9 We believe human testimony; but God's testimony is much stronger, and he has given this testimony about his Son.

 

5:10 So those who believe in the Son of God have this testimony in their own heart; but those who do not believe God, have made a liar of him, because they have not believed what God has said about his Son.

 

5:11 (*)The testimony is this: God has given us eternal life, and this life has its source in his Son.

 

5:12 Whoever has the Son has this life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

5:18 We know that no children of God keep on sinning, for the Son of God keeps them safe, and the Evil One cannot harm them.

 

5:19 We know that we belong to God even though the whole world is under the rule of the Evil One.

 

5:20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we know the true God. We live in union with the true God-in union with his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and this is eternal life.

5:21 My children, keep yourselves safe from false gods!

[knaveman]

Lonelybird, like most other belivers have something the doubters do not. Faith. Moai, seems to have no faith. One is religious one is not. Neither can understand the other. They both preach to each other. It never ends. The basis if religion is faith, it cannot be proven by scientific methods nor should it. If religion was proven by science it would become fact.

 

Faith is a beautiful thing. It is believing in something you cannot explain by conventional means. It is something that facts and science cannot shake. It seems easy to me, prove God exists or prove he does not. No one can do either. It is all a matter of faith.

 

We should all learn to be more tolerant of each other and spend less time trying to be right. Be good.

[lonelybird]

We should all learn to be more tolerant of each other and spend less time trying to be right. Be good.

yes, I tolerate them

 

I am planing to obey God and God's words, because God's words bring life and joy to heart:love:, God KNOWS how human being function, what make human trully joy. but human being has limitation, we see things on a limited range, seldome pass beyond flesh realm, but to satisfy flesh really can not make us content in heart.

 

The more to be obedient to God, the more peace, love and rejoice. THAT'S what Lord wants others to have too.

[lonelybird]

1 John

 

2:3 If we obey God's commands, then we are sure that we know him.

2:4 If we say that we know him, but do not obey his commands, we are liars and there is no truth in us.

2:5 But if we obey his word, we are the ones whose love for God has really been made perfect. This is how we can be sure that we are in union with God:

2:6 if we say that we remain in union with God, we should live just as Jesus Christ did.

[lonelybird]

1 Pet 1:8 You love him, although you have not seen him, and you believe in him, although you do not now see him. So you rejoice with a great and glorious joy which words cannot express,

 

Phil 3:3 It is we, not they, who have received the true circumcision, for we worship God by means of his Spirit and rejoice in our life in union with Christ Jesus. We do not put any trust in external ceremonies.

Phil 4:4 May you always be joyful in your union with the Lord. I say it again: rejoice!

 

Rom 5:11 But that is not all; we rejoice because of what God has done through our Lord Jesus Christ, who has now made us God's friends.

 

Joel 2:23 "Be glad, people of Zion, rejoice at what the LORD your God has done for you. He has given you the right amount of autumn rain; he has poured down the winter rain for you and the spring rain as before.

 

Jer 31:13 hen the young women will dance and be happy, and men, young and old, will rejoice. I (The Lord) will comfort them and turn their mourning into joy, their sorrow into gladness.

 

Is 9:3 You have given them great joy, Lord; you have made them happy. They rejoice in what you have done, as people rejoice when they harvest grain or when they divide captured wealth.

Is 12:3 As fresh water brings joy to the thirsty, so God's people rejoice when he saves them."

 

Is 65:18 Be glad and rejoice forever in what I create. The new Jerusalem I make will be full of joy, and her people will be happy.

 

Is 66:5 Listen to what the LORD says, you that fear him and obey him: "Because you are faithful to me, some of your own people hate you and will have nothing to do with you. They mock you and say, 'Let the LORD show his greatness and save you, so that we may see you rejoice.' But they themselves will be disgraced!

 

Is 66:10 Rejoice with Jerusalem; be glad for her, all you that love this city! Rejoice with her now, all you that have mourned for her!

 

Prov 24:17 Don't be glad when your enemies meet disaster, and don't rejoice when they stumble.

 

Ps 5:11 But all who find safety in you will rejoice; they can always sing for joy. Protect those who love you; because of you they are truly happy.

 

Ps 9:14 that I may stand before the people of Jerusalem and tell them all the things for which I praise you. I will rejoice because you saved me.

 

Ps 31:7 I will be glad and rejoice because of your constant love. You see my suffering; you know my trouble.

Ps 32:11 You that are righteous, be glad and rejoice because of what the LORD has done. You that obey him, shout for joy!

 

Ps 63:11 Because God gives him victory, the king will rejoice. Those who make promises in God's name will praise him, but the mouths of liars will be shut.

 

Ps 64:10 All righteous people will rejoice because of what the LORD has done. They will find safety in him; all good people will praise him.

 

Ps 68:3 But the righteous are glad and rejoice in his presence; they are happy and shout for joy.

 

Ps 89:16 Because of you they rejoice all day long, and they praise you for your goodness.

Ps 97:1 The LORD is king! Earth, be glad! Rejoice, you islands of the seas!

 

Ps 97:8 The people of Zion are glad, and the cities of Judah rejoice because of your judgments, O LORD.

Ps 105:3 Be glad that we belong to him; let all who worship him rejoice.

Ps 149:2 Be glad, Israel, because of your Creator; rejoice, people of Zion, because of your king!

Ps 149:5 Let God's people rejoice in their triumph and sing joyfully all night long.

[lonelybird]

Proverbs

 

27:5 Better to correct someone openly than to let him think you don't care for him at all.

27:6 Friends mean well, even when they hurt you. But when an enemy puts his arm around your shoulder-watch out!

 

26:28 A lying tongue hates its victims, and a flattering mouth works ruin.

 

29:5 If you flatter your friends, you set a trap for yourself.(u)

 

29:6 Evil people are trapped in their own sins, while honest people are happy and free.

[lonelybird]

David

*Stayed at Jerusalem

*Took another man’s wife and had him murdered.

*The woman became with child because of David’s sin.

*The child ultimately died because of David’s sin.

*He figuratively took another man’s lamb and killed it.

*He sinned against God.

*Anointed to be king.

*Murdered a man in order to take his wife.

*He sinned resulting in death to a number of his sons.

 

 

 

Jesus

 

*Left His glory and came to earth

*Purchased His own bride by His own blood.

*He was the child who was born to remove sin.

*He is the child who came to die for our sins.

*He WAS the figure of the Lamb who was put to death.

*He was obedient to the point of death.

*Anointed by the Holy Spirit.

*Gave up his own life to purchase a bride.

*He took our sins upon Himself, resulting in life to all who believe

 

:eek:What was King David thinking:mad: covet other's wife, and killed a righteous man; if I can meet him, I would like to ask him by myself

 

Lord is wonderful