The OW can actually save a marriage...

[Tomcat33]

And some know it's wrong, yet continue doing it because it feels good. It's called Denial!

 

 

And others don't think that what they are doing is wrong they are fine with it. It's called FREE WILL.

[Art_Critic]

Who should we blame Lizzie?

 

Actually she does share some of the blame..not all by she isn't blamless.. you have read her posts.. she knows exactly how and why she is hurting the innocents..

guilt by association as it were.. you can't do bad deeds then run and hide from the responsibility that you share...

[whichwayisup]

you'd be able to see how insignificant the affair was in the scheme of things in your marriage.

 

Yeah except it ruined trust, faith, and caused ALOT of pain. Problems in a marriage can cause heartache and all, but dealing with the fallout after an affair, that's completely different. Go read Thumbingmyways' threads...DazednConfused's, Owl's for starters...Then come back and say that how the affair was insignificant to the marriage. That's pure crap, sorry, but it is.

[Tomcat33]

And some know it's wrong, yet continue doing it because it feels good. It's called Denial!

 

 

Listen a smoker knows that they can get cancer, but they are willing to take the risk of doing it because it feels good to smoke. Are they in denial or just making a choice based on what they know and willing to take the risk and live with the consequences?

[NoIDidn't]

YEAH of course I am saying that. Who should we blame Lizzie? or Angelina Jolie? :laugh::laugh:

 

well if you had it your way I'm sure both.

 

Hell, if I had it my way **I** would be the one sleeping with Brad Pitt.

[Art_Critic]

Listen a smoker knows that they can get cancer, but they are willing to take the risk of doing it because it feels good to smoke. Are they in denial or just making a choice based on what they know and willing to take the risk and live with the consequences?

 

A smoker is in denial.. and they are also addicted which means all thought of consequences of their health goes in one ear and out the other.. only the feeding of the addiction is of a concern to a smoker

[annabelle75]

NO that is what you are willing to see into what I said, go back and re-read it until it you get what I meant. AND keep in context with what KHLF had posted in regards to "breaking vows". If it still doesn't make sense to you then I'll explain it again in the morning....

 

I understand what you are saying. They either genuinely don't understand or are just reading something else into it.

 

Here's my 2 cents ....

 

Fact #1: A parent chosing to have an affair will have damgaing affects on their children.

 

Fact #2: There are a million and one things other than an affair that a parent can do to harm their children as well.

 

My personal opinion is that the damage of an affair can be minimized if BOTH parents choose to do so. Alright, I'm not big about talking about my own crappy marriage, but in the end my XH did have an affair. By then the marriage was so dead, I was more annoyed than anything. I was already ready to leave. We have a daughter together and I have no intention of ever telling her what her father did. There is no reason for her to know. I think it would only do her harm. If her father choses to tell her when she is older that is his choice, but I would rather he didn't. There is no reason for her to be caused pain becasue of our mistakes in our marriage.

 

I lack respect for parents that drag their children into these kinds of problems.

[NoIDidn't]

Listen a smoker knows that they can get cancer, but they are willing to take the risk of doing it because it feels good to smoke. Are they in denial or just making a choice based on what they know and willing to take the risk and live with the consequences?

 

TC

 

Smokers smoke for the same reason that cheaters cheat: because they don't think it will catch up with them. They don't care about the consequences. They only care about the good feelings now.

 

Cheaters and smokers sometimes don't get to LIVE with the consequences. (My apologies to any smokers that I have offended. I lost a loved one to smoking when he got untreatable lung cancer)

 

The air is fresher outside of your panties, you know.

[Tomcat33]

Actually she does share some of the blame..not all by she isn't blamless.. you have read her posts.. she knows exactly how and why she is hurting the innocents..

guilt by association as it were.. you can't do bad deeds then run and hide from the responsibility that you share...

 

 

Yeah ok I see your point.

But let me ask you this:

 

a guy goes to get a mortgage and is refused by a bunch of banks based on his shakey debt to income ration then he goes to a mortgage broker who offers him a mortgage at a higher rate of course from a third party lender, he sees that it could be a dodgey deal to go with this client but the he uses his judgment and money is money and decides to give him a break.

 

A year down the road the guy gets into more debt on nonesense and has to sell the house because he is in way over his head and can't even feed the kids, let alone make the mortgage payments so he looses the house or has to sell it in order to feed the children.

So who is to blame for the food not being on the kid's table? the mortgage broker who should not have taken a gamble on the a guy who was already coming in with a shadey capital vs debt blance or the guy who pi$$ed his money away on more stuff instead of plunking down and paying for his debts and making sure the family would not be left without their needs being met?

[herenow]

HN, you are still your biggest enemy. Think about it. The affair is over, yet you still peruse LS infidelity posts... for what? I am not trying to sound like a smart ass or pass judgement here.

 

If you were truly over the affair, you'd be able to see how insignificant the affair was in the scheme of things in your marriage. Why should it upset you that some stranger enjoys her time with married men? She's not hurting anyone, and she's probably prolonging the married man's marriage, just as she claims. I really laud her for having the courage to stand by her POV.

 

The only thing that I find hard to believe is her claim of not ever falling in love with any of the men. I can't understand how she manages to separate the sex from the emotions - and not getting hurt in the process.

 

I will say it again. Affairs are not the worst thing that can happen to a marriage. Domestic violence, mind games, sexual abuse, neglect, and at least a handful other infractions are worse than finding out that your spouse has been sleeping with another woman.

 

First, I'm not at all upset by Lizzie, never have been. I have just engaged in this conversation just like everyone else. I have never tried to tell her how to live her life.

 

Why do I come here now that the affair is behind me? To check up on how my friends are doing. I truly care about WWIU, NID, TBF, OOD and others. I don't post much, but I do check in to see how they are. If you think its foolish for me to care about them, well, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

 

I would continue to post, but my H is home, so I'm going to be with my family.

 

Best wishes to all.

[FavoriteHeadache]

I understand what you are saying. They either genuinely don't understand or are just reading something else into it.

 

Here's my 2 cents ....

 

Fact #1: A parent chosing to have an affair will have damgaing affects on their children.

 

Fact #2: There are a million and one things other than an affair that a parent can do to harm their children as well.

 

My personal opinion is that the damage of an affair can be minimized if BOTH parents choose to do so. Alright, I'm not big about talking about my own crappy marriage, but in the end my XH did have an affair. By then the marriage was so dead, I was more annoyed than anything. I was already ready to leave. We have a daughter together and I have no intention of ever telling her what her father did. There is no reason for her to know. I think it would only do her harm. If her father choses to tell her when she is older that is his choice, but I would rather he didn't. There is no reason for her to be caused pain becasue of our mistakes in our marriage.

 

I lack respect for parents that drag their children into these kinds of problems.

 

 

Good point and I agree totally. I believe the same exact logic can be used in why NOT to tell a spouse as well. It would just needlessly hurt her (or him). My "fling" was a mistake and not some purposeful act of betrayal. So why the hell would I say anything? I want my marriage to keep on going and want to work at it. Spilling the beans would almost be a malicious act.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

Yeah except it ruined trust, faith, and caused ALOT of pain. Problems in a marriage can cause heartache and all, but dealing with the fallout after an affair, that's completely different.

 

I never said that the fallout of an affair is a breeze. I don't think anybody here would argue otherwise. I am not advocating for affairs. It is an infraction on a marriage!

 

What I am saying here is, there's some truth in what Lizzie says. Let's not close our ears (and eyes) to the message. An affair is not ALL bad. It might be THE THING that saved a failing marriage! Why can't people just accept that?

 

So should women and men who are having problems with their spouses try having an affair? NO! Two wrongs do not make one right. No person is without fault. But why should the affair that your spouse carried out be the worse offender?

 

Living with a serial cheater is tricky. It can be the pits if you do not deal with the frequent fallouts well.

 

The bottom line is, if you can't accept/forgive your WS for the affair, then you would be better off divorcing him/her. I think we all agree on that. So why can't you accept that your spouse carried on an affair because he/she doesn't want to divorce you? Having an affair is not right, but that was his/her choice.

[NoIDidn't]

First, I'm not at all upset by Lizzie, never have been. I have just engaged in this conversation just like everyone else. I have never tried to tell her how to live her life.

 

Why do I come here now that the affair is behind me? To check up on how my friends are doing. I truly care about WWIU, NID, TBF, OOD and others. I don't post much, but I do check in to see how they are. If you think its foolish for me to care about them, well, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

 

I would continue to post, but my H is home, so I'm going to be with my family.

 

Best wishes to all.

 

HN

 

You shouldn't have to defend your right to do whatever it is that you want to do. OP/MP seem to forget that the rest of us can do as we please too.

 

This is just a conversation. I don't think that anyone in this thread truly 'cares' about what Lizzie does (so long as one of her men isn't "theirs").

 

And, hey, I care about you too. Thanks for the reciprocation.

[Tomcat33]

I understand what you are saying. They either genuinely don't understand or are just reading something else into it.

 

Here's my 2 cents ....

 

Fact #1: A parent chosing to have an affair will have damgaing affects on their children.

 

Fact #2: There are a million and one things other than an affair that a parent can do to harm their children as well.

 

My personal opinion is that the damage of an affair can be minimized if BOTH parents choose to do so. Alright, I'm not big about talking about my own crappy marriage, but in the end my XH did have an affair. By then the marriage was so dead, I was more annoyed than anything. I was already ready to leave. We have a daughter together and I have no intention of ever telling her what her father did. There is no reason for her to know. I think it would only do her harm. If her father choses to tell her when she is older that is his choice, but I would rather he didn't. There is no reason for her to be caused pain becasue of our mistakes in our marriage.

 

I lack respect for parents that drag their children into these kinds of problems.

 

 

Thanks Anabelle glad you understoos what I meant

 

I TOTALLY respect your choices re. your situation it is clear the benefit of the children is all that is at hand. Wish more people would learn to do that instead of dragging the kids into grown up's battles. And yes I udnerstand that an A is something very hard for the BS to go through but the damage it does to a kid I am sure is enormous.

 

I can honestly say if there was a betrayal in my family I would not even want to know now as an adult, and there were def problems with my parents no cheating as far as I know. I think it would change my views of my parents forever. I honestly do not want to know that because I just want to remember my parents as parents not the couple and the problems that they had between them.

[Darth Vader]

And others don't think

 

You're right there.

 

Even if they think what they are doing is right, it doesn't make it right, it's still wrong.

[Darth Vader]

Yeah except it ruined trust, faith, and caused ALOT of pain. Problems in a marriage can cause heartache and all, but dealing with the fallout after an affair, that's completely different. Go read Thumbingmyways' threads...DazednConfused's, Owl's for starters...Then come back and say that how the affair was insignificant to the marriage. That's pure crap, sorry, but it is.

 

 

How's Dazed doing? Have you heard from him lately?

[Tomcat33]

You're right there.

 

Even if they think what they are doing is right, it doesn't make it right, it's still wrong.

 

 

According to WHOM? If it's not wrong for her WHO are we to say otherwise?

[Darth Vader]

Listen a smoker knows that they can get cancer, but they are willing to take the risk of doing it because it feels good to smoke. Are they in denial or just making a choice based on what they know and willing to take the risk and live with the consequences?

 

 

Both.

 

Like cheaters, they know they could get caught, they know they could die as a result of being found out, but, they say it won't happen to me, that last part tells you they're in Denial. That goes for smoking as well.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

Why do I come here now that the affair is behind me? To check up on how my friends are doing. I truly care about WWIU, NID, TBF, OOD and others. I don't post much, but I do check in to see how they are. If you think its foolish for me to care about them, well, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it.

 

HN,

Thanks for caring for the others. It is like a real community here. I come here for a good conversation.

 

I just happen to embrace Lizzie's POV in this thread. An affair is devastating. It tears families apart. But it is not without choice.

[Darth Vader]

According to WHOM? If it's not wrong for her WHO are we to say otherwise?

 

 

The answer, God.

[NoIDidn't]

The bottom line is, if you can't accept/forgive your WS for the affair, then you would be better off divorcing him/her. I think we all agree on that. So why can't you accept that your spouse carried on an affair because he/she doesn't want to divorce you? Having an affair is not right, but that was his/her choice.

 

While I can't say that I agree with your entire message, I can agree with the last part: the WS had an A because they hadn't decided to leave the M.

 

But whatever problems the M had will now be compounded because of the A. Getting over just the A is hard work. Once that is done THEN the couple has to work on the other issues. They have to work backwards - from the A to the issues.

 

Having an A because the M has issues is just the punks way out. Completely cowardly. Totally not respectable. Unless the AP buys me a yacht!!!

[Tomcat33]

Both.

 

Like cheaters, they know they could get caught, they know they could die as a result of being found out, but, they say it won't happen to me, that last part tells you they're in Denial. That goes for smoking as well.

 

 

Right but for the most part those smokers live a happy life not really thinking about the fact they could die from the habbit. So are they in denial or are they just willing to live how THEY see fit? And a lot of them DON't die of anything related to smoking....or simply quit down the road because they don't wish to do it anymore.

So is smoking wrong or right or just a matter of a safe choice vs a risky one?

[Tomcat33]

The answer, God.

 

 

Well some people don't beleive in god, they live their lives by their own set of rules not by some mandate that was written thousands of years ago to create order in some ancient society.'

 

Yeah GOD also said you should love thy neighbour, I don't see a whole lot of that going on around here, unless of course someone agrees with a particular point of view then there is plenty of love to go around :laugh:

 

It's getting nutty now....sleepy bye bye

[Star Gazer]

I hope I wasn't as relentless as Lizzie in my bad old Spock days. I'm a kinder, gentler Shacker, now. Much happier (and more boring), too.

 

Lizzie doesn't just stir the pot, anyhow. She shatters the damn thing in her efforts to create a ruckus. Comparatively, Spock was an amateur.

 

When Shackers attack Lizzie are they in some way enabling her: unburdening her conscience so to speak?

 

Only the Big Shacker in the Sky really knows, and She isn't talking.

 

Be cool, woman.

 

Is it weird that I kinda miss your old handle(s), as well as Spock? But thank got I'm no longer the girl I was back then... phew!

 

And I couldn't agree more than in continuing on with the attacks on Lizzie, they're enabling her and everyone else who walks in her shoes.

[Trimmer]

As far as my friends go... it's a NO-NO...always been a NO-NO.. It never even crossed my mind to have their husbands...

 

Friendship is the most important thing in the world after my children. I treasure those friends, I love them to pieces... I would never ever compromize that friendship...

Why? You don't believe in marriage, anyway... Heck, you help marriages, you save them; you are scrupulously careful, and the wife never finds out. And what's your number, 99.9% of men cheat? So these guys are going to do it anyway, might as well be with you right? You would actually be protecting your friends - the wives - by doing it carefully, so these dumb MM don't go out and make a stupid mistake with some other stalker OW...

 

No, it's more simple than that, because that behavior would be wrong (a "no-no") if you did it to a friend, wouldn't it? Yet the same behavior, done to a stranger, is OK? This gets back to my point about being antisocial - an inability to perceive, accept, or apply social clues about what is right and wrong, and an inability to recognize that you have some position and responsibility within the society of strangers around you.

 

How many people believe that having sex with a child is subjective ? Not many ..

Yes I agree given OUR social boundaries, in other social circles those very things are acceptable.

 

...but for someone who doesn't believe in marriage for one bit... there's no difference if the guy is single or married...

No difference to you. But in our society, where there are social boundaries - like those Tomcat points out above - this behavior is wrong independent of whether you "believe" in marriage or not. You are perfectly free to believe that marriage is unworkable, impossible, etc. but you live in a society that puts a sign on it that says "do not touch" and you refuse to respect that. Antisocial. "That sign doesn't apply to me, because I don't believe in it."

 

Lizzie made a valid point: an affair is often a blessing for the marriage in disguise. I truly believe that when an affair happens, the marriage has long been dead to one or both spouses, but who still refuse to acknowledge the state of the deterioration.

No, actually, according to Lizzie, her MM seem to be good guys in generally good marriages with relatively narrow issues, who get a boost from the little bit on the side, and who go back to their wives rejuvinated (helped, or "saved" as the thread subject would have it.) Her guys are not those sad sacks in dead marriages, looking for a way out that you describe. Actually, she doesn't want those potentially clingy guys from marriages that are coming apart.

 

And others don't think that what they are doing is wrong they are fine with it. It's called FREE WILL.

Most people living in a society are able to use various clues to recognize societal standards of behavior. In "ancient society", as Tomcat points out, religion was the primary guideline. These days, most of them are written down as laws, but in all societies, standards and guidelines have been enshrined in rituals, stories, expectations etc. We don't all agree or "believe in" the rules the exact same way, but even so, every culture needs to propogate and communicate the standards that allow us all to adjust our behavior to fall within boundaries that allow our society to function smoothly.

 

Most of us undertstand that stealing is wrong. This is so clear, it is communicated in religious texts, in the laws of most lands, and in stories and lessons we learn from those around us from the time we begin interacting with our world. We get this - it gets communicated. Even if you "don't believe in" corporate profits, it would be absurd to argue that the idea of "FREE WILL" makes it an acceptable behavior within our society to go and help a corporate treasurer embezzle a few hundred thousand from a big billion-dollar corporation, and share the spoils. "Hey, it's not that much, they won't notice, we are super-careful that they won't ever find out, no one is really getting hurt that much at all, and really, it's the treasurer who is betraying the company, not me." Well, actually, most of us living in civilized society could understand that these actions would still be wrong, independent of one's beliefs about corporations, the treasurer bearing primary responsibility, etc.

 

Most of us also find it obvious - whether we believe in marriage as a religious institution, or a civil union, and even among those who believe "it's not for me" - that a marriage is something not to be willingly disturbed - targeted, especially - from the outside. It's a societal standard, irrespective of one's own free will or lack of belief in the institution.

 

So, I continue to believe that Lizzie's behavior is antisocial, and I had originally believed that she herself couldn't see this. But the more she talks, the more she drops hints that she does know it. After all, she would never do this to a friend's relationship. That would be a "NO-NO", or putting it another way, "wrong." That behavior would be wrong.

 

And this:

So I know what I'm doing is not as bad as many other OW who stalk and make trouble to the MM and his family...

How would that be, to wake up one day, look in the mirror, and hear yourself say "What I'm doing is not as bad as..."