The OW can actually save a marriage...

[Tomcat33]

Oh, don't doubt it for a second if your man was offering $$$. Remember, what you don't know won't hurt you. That's the theme of this entire thread.

 

 

Well I know THIS much, I don't have a husband and I know EXACTLY where my money goes....LOL so until then I really could care less how the Lizzies of this world choose to live.

 

Even if I did have a husband if I never found out he was doing this behind my back what's the point of even worrying about it? Gees guys spend enough of the family's hard earned money on strippers, porn and booze. I would hope that the man whom I choose to share a life with, will not need to waste money on porn or strippers let alone prostitutes..but heck I'm not ubiquitous I can't be pondering where my H is at all minutes of the day...

To me the answer is simple, if I EVER did catch him paying women for sex he'd be out on his a$$ as quickly as I can say "Lizzie who?"

I would like to think I control my own happiness, not the profession of some woman I don't even know....and if I never found out well I'm sure there are alot of crappy things partners hide from their spouses which you nor I will EVER find out...Just cant live life obsessing over something you really have no control over.

 

Darth Vader:

Even if a person doesn't believe in God, that doesn't make him go away.

 

It doesn't make him go away FOR YOU, but not for the person who does not believe in god. If you don't believe in something how can it GO AWAY, how can it do anything? you don't beleive in it therefore it doesn't exist in your realm of truth.

 

 

Now tell me you don't believe taxes are fair, I can agree 100% no matter how much we don't believe that, they ain't goin' away! :lmao:

[Herzen]

"Originally Posted by Herzen

I hope I wasn't as relentless as Lizzie in my bad old Spock days. I'm a kinder, gentler Shacker, now. Much happier (and more boring), too.

 

Lizzie doesn't just stir the pot, anyhow. She shatters the damn thing in her efforts to create a ruckus. Comparatively, Spock was an amateur. ;)"

 

Off topic, but I must note this. Whichwayisup brought to my attention that I was never Spock--bark, jester, mysugaree--not Spock. In short: I am not Spock.

 

Spock was a buddy of mine, and a great gal. I apologize if I unintentionally misled anyone.

 

This is a great reason to pick one name and stick with it.

[luvmy2ns]

To me the answer is simple, if I EVER did catch him paying women for sex he'd be out on his a$$ as quickly as I can say "Lizzie who?"

 

And I bet he'd have a well earned boot mark in his arse as well.

 

You go girl!!!

 

And you're right about taxes. I just wish they'd spend our money more wisely. I bet some of those "miscellaneous expenses" they get to write off on their taxes that we have to foot the bill for are for hookers!!!:lmao:

[Lizzie60]

I think it's all 3.

 

It's all 3.

 

1. stir the pot

 

Who doesn't in their LS lifetime?

 

2. find someone who'll back her up and give her a reason to carry on.

 

There will always be people who will back people up...but some just don't post about it when they see all the bickering...they are the silent supporters... and I can understand that... but to be honest I don't really need any support, I can very well defend myself.

 

3. she's living some fantasy...

 

In a way yes I am... I have, IMO, the best of both worlds... I am living the life I want, being single and independant, no need to compromise, etc. AND I have all the men and the sex I want. Isn't that a 'fantas...tic' life?

 

It is for me and for now I wouldn't trade it with any W... even the happiest.

[Bunnz]

Well, I am not certain what brought me to this site...I was searching for something and here I am. I registered. This is my first post.

 

Now, I will admit to not having read much more than the first two pages of this thread, but it was enough. I am an active member of two message boards that are dedicated to saving marriages...mostly marriages impacted by infidelity. I am also the BS and I am now, after a long-term affair on the part of my ex, divorced.

 

Anyone who believes a marriage can be helped by an affair is totally wrong. Good grief, I cannot believe someone actually said that! Anyone who believes that "what they don't know can't hurt them" is totally wrong. Anyone who believes that they are not hurting a relationship by entering into an OM/OW role is deceiving themselves, and probably for the purpose of continuing to enjoy the relationship.

 

The energy that is taken from the marriage/relationship and given to the affair will eventually be felt in that relationship and it will be damaged. Anytime that a third party exists in a supposedly monogamous relationship, it is BIG trouble brewing. Once a partner begins to share things with a third party that should only be shared with the spouse or SO, there is trouble brewing.

 

Recommended reading: Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass and Why We Love by Helen Fischer.

 

You will learn about brain chemicals and the "addictive" chemicals that fuel affairs.

 

I'm sorry. There is a lot of education that needs to occur here. What I have read is merely based on feelings and speculation and theory.

[halfarock]

Many years ago there was this guy that I did business with. Because of our business relationship I met his wife who I found to be very charming. Even though we had a few flirtatious moments, I always respected their marriage. Then it got to where the guy was out of town all the time often for weeks, sometimes for months, at a time. She was left at home with the kids.

 

Ever so often I had to exchange certain documents and whatnot with the guy and, because he was always out of town, would tell me to go to his wife and she would have or hold such documents in his absence. It didn’t take long and she was inviting me over to her house for a meal in addition to the exchange of documents. This is after I’ve known her for 8 years and had completely respected her marriage. It quickly became apparent that she desired more than just my company.

 

She told me about how much she loved her husband, that she had only been with only one man previously and then only once, that she was committed to her marriage, the whole bit. But, she explained, the lack of sex was driving her crazy. And our little relationship began. She also claimed that she chose me, not only because she had passions for me, but also she knew me and that she could trust my discreetness. It went on about two years until the woman let it slip out, a comment about fkn me. Her husband didn’t believe her because she was prone to expressing such passing fantasies and she had been drinking at the time. He came to me, saying what she had said and asked if I had been fkn his wife. When I sarcastically admitted that I had, he laughed; he thought it was all a joke. He just couldn’t believe it could have happened. But at the same time he saw it as a cry for attention from his wife and changed his business so that he could spend a lot more time at home. It’s been more than 10 years since and they are still together. She still calls me up from time to time just to talk when she’s feeling lonely and he still jokes about me fkn his wife.

 

I really don’t see how anyone got hurt. They’re happy, I’m happy. Alls well that ends well. And I didn’t even have to lie.

[NoIDidn't]

2. find someone who'll back her up and give her a reason to carry on.

 

There will always be people who will back people up...but some just don't post about it when they see all the bickering...they are the silent supporters... and I can understand that... but to be honest I don't really need any support, I can very well defend myself.

 

 

Sounds like Richard Nixon and his "silent majority".

 

Next she'll be saying "I am not a crook...."

[Lizzie60]

I'm not a crook.

[NoIDidn't]

Whoop! There it is!! LOL!!!!

[norajane]

Many years ago there was this guy that I did business with. Because of our business relationship I met his wife who I found to be very charming. Even though we had a few flirtatious moments, I always respected their marriage. Then it got to where the guy was out of town all the time often for weeks, sometimes for months, at a time. She was left at home with the kids.

 

Ever so often I had to exchange certain documents and whatnot with the guy and, because he was always out of town, would tell me to go to his wife and she would have or hold such documents in his absence. It didn’t take long and she was inviting me over to her house for a meal in addition to the exchange of documents. This is after I’ve known her for 8 years and had completely respected her marriage. It quickly became apparent that she desired more than just my company.

 

She told me about how much she loved her husband, that she had only been with only one man previously and then only once, that she was committed to her marriage, the whole bit. But, she explained, the lack of sex was driving her crazy. And our little relationship began. She also claimed that she chose me, not only because she had passions for me, but also she knew me and that she could trust my discreetness. It went on about two years until the woman let it slip out, a comment about fkn me. Her husband didn’t believe her because she was prone to expressing such passing fantasies and she had been drinking at the time. He came to me, saying what she had said and asked if I had been fkn his wife. When I sarcastically admitted that I had, he laughed; he thought it was all a joke. He just couldn’t believe it could have happened. But at the same time he saw it as a cry for attention from his wife and changed his business so that he could spend a lot more time at home. It’s been more than 10 years since and they are still together. She still calls me up from time to time just to talk when she’s feeling lonely and he still jokes about me fkn his wife.

 

I really don’t see how anyone got hurt. They’re happy, I’m happy. Alls well that ends well. And I didn’t even have to lie.

 

Her husband could have easily been hurt - you just got lucky.

 

However, don't pat yourself on the back too hard. She could have told him 2 years earlier that she was at the end of her rope and issued that same call for help - "honey, I'm lonely without you and I miss sex so much that I'm ready to start ****ing other guys. In fact, I have someone in mind" - and he might have made the changes to his work style that he was, apparently, quite willing to make.

 

Had she expressed her needs clearly back then, she wouldn't have to hide this affair for the rest of her life, it wouldn't remain this secret between them, and the distance that creates wouldn't exist. She may not feel it now, but she will regret it, and who knows, may one day feel the need to clear her conscience (or she'll get drunk again and let it slip, with him believing her that time). You don't know how it will turn out.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

She could have told him 2 years earlier that she was at the end of her rope and issued that same call for help - "honey, I'm lonely without you and I miss sex so much that I'm ready to start ****ing other guys. In fact, I have someone in mind" - and he might have made the changes to his work style that he was, apparently, quite willing to make.

 

Had she expressed her needs clearly back then, she wouldn't have to hide this affair for the rest of her life,

 

Actually, I know how it will turn out if his wife had simply asked him AGAIN and AGAIN to change his business and stay home more: he'd simply ignore her! THat's the hard truth. The wife's complaints are often unheeded - and what is she to do? Well, at least she did not divorce him!

[luvmy2ns]

Actually, I know how it will turn out if his wife had simply asked him AGAIN and AGAIN to change his business and stay home more: he'd simply ignore her! THat's the hard truth. The wife's complaints are often unheeded - and what is she to do? Well, at least she did not divorce him!

 

So you know the people in that story of halfarock's then? Small world.

[halfarock]

Actually, I know how it will turn out if his wife had simply asked him AGAIN and AGAIN to change his business and stay home more: he'd simply ignore her! THat's the hard truth. The wife's complaints are often unheeded - and what is she to do? Well, at least she did not divorce him!

Actually I think the excuse he gave her was that he had to build his career and reputation. And he didn't want her tagging along, as an added expense slowing him down.

[PollyIvy]

The energy that is taken from the marriage/relationship and given to the affair will eventually be felt in that relationship and it will be damaged.

 

It is totally true that the energy gets taken away from the M and redirected to the A. I don't think it's always true that it damages the marriage, tho. In my case, taking all my energy away from the M gave that relationship a chance to breathe. I was so needy, and my H had closed down completely emotionally, and when I took all that intense focus off of him, it helped our M a lot.

[lindya]

Referring back to Lizzie's argument that affairs can "save" marriages...what kind of marriages are they saving?

 

Lizzie mentioned that with regard to most of the men she's sleeping with, their wives don't want sex very often. It's not clear why that is - though it seems that between them, Lizzie and the MM manage to figure out easily digestible reasons that tend to lay all the responsibility at the wife's feet. Too tired, not very highly sexed - whatever. Nice woman, good mother...no point rocking the boat by trying to find out what's gone so wrong between her and her husband that she doesn't want to be physically intimate with him any more.

 

That doesn't sound like the process of saving a good marriage. It sounds more like the process of propping up a marriage that's lost its intimacy. Finding diversions that will stop the MM from caring if the intimacy is gone. Obviate the need for him to sit down with his wife and ask "do we try to fix this dying marriage - and, if so, how?"

 

It's interesting to hear avoidance and denial being touted as marriage saving strategies.

[OpenBook]

Referring back to Lizzie's argument that affairs can "save" marriages...what kind of marriages are they saving?

 

Normal, typical marriages is my guess. Especially ones that have lasted for a long time. I believe we (meaning, today's society) expect too much out of marriage. If the romance is gone, we think something's wrong with the marriage. But it's not the way most MM's seem to look at it. They have no desire to leave. They still love their W's. They just miss the romance, excitement, mystery of a new relationship. It makes them feel more alive.

 

Lizzie mentioned that with regard to most of the men she's sleeping with, their wives don't want sex very often. It's not clear why that is - though it seems that between them, Lizzie and the MM manage to figure out easily digestible reasons that tend to lay all the responsibility at the wife's feet. Too tired, not very highly sexed - whatever. Nice woman, good mother...no point rocking the boat by trying to find out what's gone so wrong between her and her husband that she doesn't want to be physically intimate with him any more.

 

But nothing's wrong. The W just has so much else going on trying to maintain her family's environment and well-being, sex may not be a high priority for her at this juncture. And the MM has gotten so comfortable, he's not trying to romance her like in the good ol' days, so it isn't easy for her to get inspired. It doesn't mean the love isn't there. Sex - and the priority we put on it - ebbs and flows over the course of a lifetime.

 

That doesn't sound like the process of saving a good marriage. It sounds more like the process of propping up a marriage that's lost its intimacy. Finding diversions that will stop the MM from caring if the intimacy is gone. Obviate the need for him to sit down with his wife and ask "do we try to fix this dying marriage - and, if so, how?"

 

It's interesting to hear avoidance and denial being touted as marriage saving strategies.

 

Lizzie isn't propping up anything. She doesn't have anything to do with their marriage. She is meeting a need that the MM is seeking to have met. And how do we know that the MM hasn't already sought to "fix" things with his W?

[lindya]

But nothing's wrong. The W just has so much else going on trying to maintain her family's environment and well-being, sex may not be a high priority for her at this juncture. And the MM has gotten so comfortable, he's not trying to romance her like in the good ol' days, so it isn't easy for her to get inspired. It doesn't mean the love isn't there.

 

Is this how you would view affair situations in general, or did you have a specific relationship in mind when you wrote that? If a woman doesn't view physical intimacy with her husband as a high priority, if he's okay with that - and they're both okay with him getting sexual needs met elsewhere, then I guess if it works for them who's to judge?

 

A difficulty arises when you have one partner who places a lot of importance on their need to "stay alive" by conducting various affairs in secret, and another partner who's devoting energy and effort into fulfilling their part of the relationship "deal" without realising the true situation.

 

If you found yourself in the role of the cuckolded partner in a situation like that, and could accept it philosophically, then all power to you. A great many people who find themselves in that situation get seriously pissed off. They're unlikely to have much time for your insight that the unfaithful partner wanted to combine "staying alive" with a new partner with the benefit of stability with the old one. I think that's commonly referred to, on this board, as cake-eating.

 

Lizzie isn't propping up anything. She doesn't have anything to do with their marriage.

 

So what's this thread about, then?

[Woggle]

Maybe if people put the same effort into their marriages as they did an affair the romance could be revived.

[Bunnz]

Maybe if people put the same effort into their marriages as they did an affair the romance could be revived.

 

Yessssss!!!!!

[LucreziaBorgia]

OW help marriages the same way that painkillers help cancer. It is no more than treating a symptom, instead of curing the illness. If you aren't in pain, you forget you are ill, right? Unfortunately, if you don't treat the actual cancer you are still going to die. Same with the OW and marriage. If you are out happily banging a side item, you tend to more easily overlook the greater problems in your marriage and don't work to fix them.

 

So, can it be said that an OW helps the marriage? Only if it can be said that a bandaid helps a gaping, festering, infected wound.

[Lizzie60]

Normal, typical marriages is my guess. Especially ones that have lasted for a long time. I believe we (meaning, today's society) expect too much out of marriage. If the romance is gone, we think something's wrong with the marriage. But it's not the way most MM's seem to look at it. They have no desire to leave. They still love their W's. They just miss the romance, excitement, mystery of a new relationship. It makes them feel more alive.

 

 

 

But nothing's wrong. The W just has so much else going on trying to maintain her family's environment and well-being, sex may not be a high priority for her at this juncture. And the MM has gotten so comfortable, he's not trying to romance her like in the good ol' days, so it isn't easy for her to get inspired. It doesn't mean the love isn't there. Sex - and the priority we put on it - ebbs and flows over the course of a lifetime.

 

 

 

Lizzie isn't propping up anything. She doesn't have anything to do with their marriage. She is meeting a need that the MM is seeking to have met. And how do we know that the MM hasn't already sought to "fix" things with his W?

 

You are right on with your comments. I agree...there is nothing wrong with their marriage except for the sex part... I am sure they are intimate in other ways but not sexually.

 

For the wife, as you say, sex is not a priority... passion is gone and sex has become some kind of 'chores' IMO... (been there)... then after a while MM gets tired of nagging or begging his wife for sex..and go outside for his needs.

 

And it's not because they havent talked about the problem...they did...but nothing ever changed...

 

These 'typical' marriages are identical 'copies' of my first M (common-law). No matter how much we fought over this... sex was a sacrifice for me... but everything else was working pretty good... I would probably have stayed longer if it wasn't for his sexual appetite... but I just couldn't take that pressure anymore... I didn't have any 'passion' anymore... it was a combination of things but sex was a huge part of our problem.

[Nemo]

So, can it be said that an OW helps the marriage? Only if it can be said that a bandaid helps a gaping, festering, infected wound.

Great analogy. The bandaid (they make antiseptic ones these days, you know) protects the wound, giving it time to heal. A bridge across troubled waters, so to speak.

[Lizzie60]

Is this how you would view affair situations in general, or did you have a specific relationship in mind when you wrote that? If a woman doesn't view physical intimacy with her husband as a high priority, if he's okay with that - and they're both okay with him getting sexual needs met elsewhere, then I guess if it works for them who's to judge?

 

A difficulty arises when you have one partner who places a lot of importance on their need to "stay alive" by conducting various affairs in secret, and another partner who's devoting energy and effort into fulfilling their part of the relationship "deal" without realising the true situation.

 

If you found yourself in the role of the cuckolded partner in a situation like that, and could accept it philosophically, then all power to you. A great many people who find themselves in that situation get seriously pissed off. They're unlikely to have much time for your insight that the unfaithful partner wanted to combine "staying alive" with a new partner with the benefit of stability with the old one. I think that's commonly referred to, on this board, as cake-eating.

 

 

 

So what's this thread about, then?

 

These are situations in general... Most if not all my experiences with MMs are 'typical' marriages.

 

The MMs I'm seeing have all the same problem (or close) and they have discussed and nagged and whined... you name it... nothing has been done... the W just don't have the 'drive' anymore...

 

I guess, bottom line, maybe men and women are not sexually wired to remain faithful to each other on a long term basis... Men seem to maintain their sexual appetite while women tend to lose it with time. Hormones? or simply men and women's differences... not sure...

 

But it seems like that from as soon as the young boy starts to experience with sex... I guess we have to accept that men are MORE sexual than women all their life.

[OpenBook]

Is this how you would view affair situations in general, or did you have a specific relationship in mind when you wrote that? ... They're unlikely to have much time for your insight that the unfaithful partner wanted to combine "staying alive" with a new partner with the benefit of stability with the old one. I think that's commonly referred to, on this board, as cake-eating ... So what's this thread about, then?

 

My point was, I don't agree with Lizzie's argument - but not for the same reasons others have cited.

 

I just know that A's happen, often. And I'm trying to understand why it happens, from all angles. I'm not convinced that it always (or even often) happens because there's something "wrong" in the marriage.

 

I think we put too much pressure on, and apply too many expectations to, the institution of marriage. One person cannot possibly satisfy all of another person's needs, all the time, throughout their entire lifetime. And it's unrealistic and UNFAIR to both parties to expect that.

 

But I'm not going to address whether it's justified to deceive your SO and go outside the M to get your needs met. It's not my call. The whole thing just makes me so sad. There's so much pain involved, on all sides - and I think it's a direct result of all the expectations we put on marriage.

[woe_is_me]

sometimes when i read the personal ads in the local paper im shocked at how many 'married men' advertise..

 

Do u like..answer them all Lizzie?