The OW can actually save a marriage...

[dbtmarley]

Well we have different opinion on that one...

 

I don't think that being an OW or OM automatically make you someone who wants your MM or MW to leave their husband/wife... I disagree... sometimes they (OW and MM) just want it the way it is... each with their own family or if one is single (like me) wants to remain single...

 

Wow... I can almost hear the conviction in just how admirable you think you are. Awesome indeed, must be those long, cold winter nights!

[Lizzie60]

Wow... I can almost hear the conviction in just how admirable you think you are. Awesome indeed, must be those long, cold winter nights!

 

What are you talking about...

 

I was commenting her post.. it had nothing to do with me being 'admirable'... not in this post anyway...

 

I know I am... btw... LOL

[Star Gazer]

I think I kinda understand what Lizzie is saying. A_C gets it, but then doesn't.

 

A_C says in one breath:

 

The cure is worse than the disease Lizzy.

 

In this instance, he's saying the AFTERMATH of the affair is worse than the AFFAIR itself. But then later says:

 

I would think that there are marriages out there that have benefited by the OUTING of the affair and not the affair itself..

 

Once outed some couples pull together and go into therapy and fix the marriage coming out much stronger and better than before the affair

 

I cannot think that there is one marriage that was made better by the affair itself.. That is nuts to think that..

 

Confusing, right?

 

And then we're back to this:

 

I would think that there are marriages out there that have benefited by the OUTING of the affair and not the affair itself..

 

Once outed some couples pull together and go into therapy and fix the marriage coming out much stronger and better than before the affair

 

I cannot think that there is one marriage that was made better by the affair itself.. That is nuts to think that..

 

I agree and disagree.

 

I do think there ARE occasions where a marriage is a happier, more content relationship for the husband and wife despite an ongoing affair. Perhaps a man loves absolutely everything about his wife and cannot bear life without her, but she refuses to have sex with him. He doesn't want to pressure her, she's blissfully ignorant. But when his needs are not being met, he's grouchy, rude, mean, etc. When he gets his jollies off with a random repeat woman like Lizzie who doesn't want a relationship with him, he's able to return each night to the woman of his dreams: his wife, and she's none the wiser, as happy as a clam. All is well at home. Make sense?

 

I also think there are occasions where there's serious communication issues within the marriage, and obviously other problems, that are worked through and resolved once an affair is unmasked. Adultery often leads to couple's counseling, and better understanding of one another, what went wrong, how to repair it, make it better, prevent it from happening again, etc. They end up in a better place than the started before the affair began.

 

Again, these are occasions...not sure if they are the general rule or the exceptions, but I'm sure they do happen. I've seen both myself.

 

Does that make it okay in either instance to seek a relationship outside the marriage? CERTAINLY NOT. All effort, communication, commitment, affection, and intimacy should remain within the marriage - between spouses.

 

Lizzie, I have come to think of you as a kind hearted person. I think you are telling yourself this can actually help because you don't want to hurt others. However, the fact is that while YOU are not hurting others by having sex with married men (as you say, if not you, it will be someone else), the married men involved ARE hurting their wives and families.

 

I agree with this. I don't think Lizzie is a bad person, and her honesty at least deserves some amount of respect. However, she is ENABLING these cheating bastards...some guilt should stem from that, at the least.

[Art_Critic]

In this instance, he's saying the AFTERMATH of the affair is worse than the AFFAIR itself. But then later says:

 

By saying the the cure was worse than the disease I wasn't referring to the affair being the disease I was saying the bad marriage is the disease.

 

She was saying that the cure to a bad marriage is an affair and that is what she provides.. an affair.. or a cure

so I was saying that the cure is worse.

 

I hope I didn't just make more confusion..

[Trimmer]

I don't think Lizzie is a bad person, and her honesty at least deserves some amount of respect. However, she is ENABLING these cheating bastards...some guilt should stem from that, at the least.

I also believe that a marriage is not only a vow between two people, but that it puts a community on notice that the bond between these two people is not to be messed with from the outside. I don't believe this aspect has the burden of a vow upon the outsider (who didn't enter into a vow willingly) but it does represent a community standard and expectation. Therefore I believe that, separate from the wayward spouse's primary responsibility for straying, the OP is acting antisocially if he/she enters into the relationship with a knowledge of the marriage.

 

I'm not shifting or re-balancing the responsibility of the MM/MW; he or she is primarily responsible to the BS for his/her actions. However, I believe the actions of the OM/OW are separately wrong, based on a knowledge of the social entity that a marriage represents.

 

A MM/MW's decision to stray does not mitigate the antisocial behavior of the OM/OW in willingly (and especially in Lizzie's examples here, enthusiastically) inserting himself/herself into a relationship that bears the social imprimatur: leave it alone. That's the community standard - that's what marriage means, at least in the society in which I live, and I'm not ready to lower the bar until both parties to that marriage - both of those who did take those vows - are fully aware of it, and have stepped away from it.

[Star Gazer]

By saying the the cure was worse than the disease I wasn't referring to the affair being the disease I was saying the bad marriage is the disease.

 

She was saying that the cure to a bad marriage is an affair and that is what she provides.. an affair.. or a cure

so I was saying that the cure is worse.

 

I hope I didn't just make more confusion..

 

I understand now. Whopsie. But I think you understood my point, I hope...?

[Babybird]

Why do OWs think that THEY wrote the book on sex? Incredible my a.ss. How about just different?

 

Ummmm, let's see......because they are being LIED TO!!!!! When they ask the WS why they are gone more, they are told "had to work", "long day at the office". And they are shocked because before then, they usually have no reason to think that their spouse is cheating.

 

Not calling you dumb, but these were some dumbass questions.

 

I never said that OW's were incredible in bed...I said if he brought home incredible techniques. Things tend to slow tend and become routine in the bedroom after a while. And YES they are different. Usually more adventurous, willing to please, and willing to try new things. So different is exactly the reason the MM keeps coming back. The incredible sex.

 

No, it isn't a 'dumbass' question. How many people have posted that the didn't have a clue their spouse was having an A? All of the sudden the H starts working late every night....come on. Thats a dead give away. So many men are sneaky enough that they aren't caught and the W never finds out. Yes, you all say this is hurting her. The lying and betrayal, but if she doesn't know where is the hurt and betrayal coming from? NOWHERE. Because she isn't feeling those things when she doesn't know!! She believes he's golfing, he's at the OW's house...is that hurting her when she knows no different. How could it? She's oblivious. I'm not saying this is all cases. There are some where the W suspects. That does cause hurt. Thats a completely different thing than what I am referring to.

 

This isn't directed towards you but to the other posting about taking away from family money.

 

So my MM and his STBexW each kicked in a certain amount of money per week for bills, and expenses relating to their son. They also had an acct they put their tax return in their to cover any 'family' things that came up unexpected. After they put in their weekly money the rest was theirs to spend. He had his money, she had hers.

 

So if he bought me a necklace or something with 'his' money is that taking away from the family? Uh..no. Its his money. His son is provided for with different money other than his weekly 'allowance'.

 

BTW that poverty level based on the 2002 census was 12.4%. This doesn't include any illegal aliens and the estimated poverty level of illegal aliens is almost 100%. Living in California I would imagine you do see quite a few extremely poor people. My guess is that they aren't a legal citizen of the US.

[Lizzie60]

Trimmer... I don't believe in marriage, never did, never will... I am not a religious person...and the vows, as far as I'm concerned is a load of crap.

 

When the passion is gone..the fights are in full gear... do you think the spouses are thinking about the vows... LOL I don't think so. The vows, IMO, are good and very 'fresh' for the first few years...

 

To say that a OW/OM is antisocial... well that all depends if you believe in those vows or not... I don't and I know quite a few people who don't.

[Lizzie60]

again well said!!!

 

So different is exactly the reason the MM keeps coming back. The incredible sex.

 

So true!

 

So many men are sneaky enough that they aren't caught and the W never finds out. Yes, you all say this is hurting her. The lying and betrayal, but if she doesn't know where is the hurt and betrayal coming from? NOWHERE.

 

I can't agree more... how can you hurt from something you totally ignored...doesn't make sense to me... LOL

 

He had his money, she had hers.

 

This is most of the time the case, they each have their money to spend as they wish... His treat... her treat.

 

I know the kids are not suffering one bit... In most cases, my MMs are spoiling their kids crazy... because they can afford it...

 

One of them has 3 sons... from 5 to 9... he's an amazing dad... He is a successful business man... a very devoted father... he is in the 'scout' thing with all 3 sons... he spends every weekend with his family... (skiing in expensive places, cottage, scouts, hockey, etc.) he loves his wife very much... I have no doubt about that... but this one doesn't like to talk about his wife... LOL... just his kids.. I guess he feels bad about talking of her to me... but it's OK.. I understand. He likes me because he can trust me, he knows I will never cause any trouble... it's very important for him to be able to trust the woman and he doesn't want any commitment... just sex.

[silktricks]

I would think she is happy... she's not bothered with the sex issue anymore... everything else works fine.

 

Well, quite often - you would think wrong. There are not many women I know who don't like sex - a lot!!! The problem often is that women can't disociate the act of sex from a whole of other stuff the way that men can.

 

Therefore, they don't want sex, not because they don't like it, but rather because other stuff isn't being addressed. They often are not even aware of there being "other stuff".

 

If the mm doesn't just go off to get his sexual needs met elsewhere, but addresses the problems - I'm not talking here just complaining that he wants more sex, but rather really addressing the problems. Their will almost always be a resolution that makes both people happy inside of their marriage.

 

By the way, I disagree that you have a real marriage where there is dishonesty at the level that is required for either party to be having their sexual needs met elsewhere, whether there is love involved or not.

[Art_Critic]

do you think the spouses are thinking about the vows... LOL I don't think so.

 

Actually Lizzie I did.. even after 5 years of marriage I did.. I took my vows very seriously for the simple reason that they came out of my mouth and are tied to my word..

 

I never once thought about cheating on her. ever.. even when the fights would go on for hours and hours and her bipolar rants would get physical.

 

I never cheated simply because I took my vows and I respected myself and my wife too much to ever cheat..

My background has made me this way.. growing up in a cheating household and witnessing the hurt and destruction of affairs made me want to never be like my father.

[michelangelo]

 

One of them has 3 sons... from 5 to 9... he's an amazing dad... He is a successful business man... a very devoted father... he is in the 'scout' thing with all 3 sons... he spends every weekend with his family... (skiing in expensive places, cottage, scouts, hockey, etc.) he loves his wife very much... I have no doubt about that... but this one doesn't like to talk about his wife... LOL... just his kids.. I guess he feels bad about talking of her to me... but it's OK.. I understand. He likes me because he can trust me, he knows I will never cause any trouble... it's very important for him to be able to trust the woman and he doesn't want any commitment... just sex.

 

Not to threadjack too far, but you mention one of the guys you help to cheat on his wife is involved in scouting with his kids. Check out the scout law and motto that he is not upholding. He is kind of being a hypocrite to his sons.

 

====

 

Boy Scout Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan

Scout Oath (or Promise)

 

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

Scout Law

 

TRUSTWORTHY

A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.

 

LOYAL

A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.

 

HELPFUL

A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.

 

FRIENDLY

A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

 

COURTEOUS

A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

 

KIND

A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.

 

OBEDIENT

A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.

 

CHEERFUL

A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.

 

THRIFTY

A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.

 

BRAVE

A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.

 

CLEAN

A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

 

REVERENT

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

Scout Motto

 

Be Prepared

 

Scout Slogan

 

Do a Good Turn Daily

[EnigmaXOXO]

Therefore, they don't want sex, not because they don't like it, but rather because other stuff isn't being addressed. They often are not even aware of there being "other stuff".

 

I agree.

 

“Great Sex” isn’t about what goes on inside the bedroom, but rather how you connect with your partner outside of the bedroom. At least where “relationships” are concerned, which is entirely different than part-time thrill seeking sex.

 

There isn’t a woman alive who doesn’t know all the parlor tricks when it comes to pleasing her man. It’s foolish and naive to think that one woman has something the other woman doesn’t in that particular department. But it’s easy to separate the “act” of having sex from the “intimacy” of sex if you deliberate avoid relationships in general and all the ‘real life’ connections that goes with.

[michelangelo]

 

BTW that poverty level based on the 2002 census was 12.4%. This doesn't include any illegal aliens and the estimated poverty level of illegal aliens is almost 100%. Living in California I would imagine you do see quite a few extremely poor people. My guess is that they aren't a legal citizen of the US.

 

Um, no, you would guess wrong. Sure, the underclass is here, but I'm referring to your garden-variety working stiff family on up to upper middle class.

 

To send a kid to college these days costs roughly $15K-$20K a year for a public university. To purchase a home here in California is at least $500K. and where I live? At least $750K.

 

So my premise is that if somebody is spending significant time and resources on an affair, then they are stealing from the family resources.

 

The fact that people may waste time and resources in other ways does not in any way negate the destructive effect of infidelity. The emotional damage, the risk to the physical health via exposure to STDs, the definable impact on the family pursestrings. Roll 'em all together, and you have a ball of wax that is bigger than some want to see.

[Lizzie60]

There isn’t a woman alive who doesn’t know all the parlor tricks when it comes to pleasing her man. It’s foolish and naive to think that one woman has something the other woman doesn’t in that particular department. But it’s easy to separate the “act” of having sex from the “intimacy” of sex if you deliberate avoid relationships in general and all the ‘real life’ connections that goes with.

 

What happened when a wife will not have sex, because she has her periods 3 weeks/month and refuses to go see a doctor about it... methink she has regular period but stretch them to 3 weeks.. I told him to check that closely... he's being lied to about that I'm sure, plus this one will only have sex in the missionary position, she said all other positions hurt her..ha-hem... and she never ever give him oral.

 

What about the other one who refuses to have sex more than maybe once a month/month and a half because 'she hates herself'...she's too fat... yeah right...

 

What about this other one who totally refuses to do oral... (my scout father) other than that...everything is good... and he looooves oral...

 

And this other one... who is only 35.. and have sex with her husband (well in fact, they are common-law) only once or twice a month... they had numerous fights over this issue... he gave up and found me... this one is my favourite.

 

I can go on and on... it is most of the time about sex... their borrrring sex...

 

I believe you when you say that the W knows all the parlour tricks on how to please her man...but she doesn't use them... so he goes outside and get someone who will use them all.

[Art_Critic]

Trimmer... I don't believe in marriage, never did, never will... I am not a religious person...and the vows, as far as I'm concerned is a load of crap.

 

That is great Lizzie..and I wouldn't expect that you would get married or get married and take the vows..

 

BUT....

 

Your MM did believe in the vows or at the very least they let their wife believe that they meant their promise.. their word..

They did take the vows..

They did break the vows..

 

If they didn't believe in them and they were the kind of people that were good to their word then why do you think they took them ? I guess they were just lying to their wife to be then ?

What kind of person does that ?

Why would you want to be with someone who isn't good to their own word by their own admission ?

[Babybird]

Um, no, you would guess wrong. Sure, the underclass is here, but I'm referring to your garden-variety working stiff family on up to upper middle class.

 

To send a kid to college these days costs roughly $15K-$20K a year for a public university. To purchase a home here in California is at least $500K. and where I live? At least $750K.

 

So my premise is that if somebody is spending significant time and resources on an affair, then they are stealing from the family resources.

 

The fact that people may waste time and resources in other ways does not in any way negate the destructive effect of infidelity. The emotional damage, the risk to the physical health via exposure to STDs, the definable impact on the family pursestrings. Roll 'em all together, and you have a ball of wax that is bigger than some want to see.

 

I am one of those "working stiffs" you referred to and am completely aware of how much college costs. I live in a town with one of the top private liberal arts schools in the country and am a student myself.

 

And your "premise"...have you or your W had an A? Exactly how common do you think it is that the MM is spending a small fortune on the OW? Lizzie's case is pretty unique and I don't consider her your average OW. Flowers, candy cards, and trinkets aren't going to break a family, especially when he has money separate from the family expenses.

 

I haven't read anywhere that an A never has a destructive impact on a family. what this post is about is the ways that an A, in the aftermath or the duration can have a positive effect on a M. Whether that be the couple working on things and coming back stronger, or someone being sexually fulfilled elsewhere.

 

BTW there is no definable impact on the family purse strings if the MM/MW doesn't spend money on the OW/OM correct?

[Art_Critic]

The OW can actually save a marriage...

 

Lizzie.. I'm curious.. How many marriages have you saved ?

 

To me saved means fixed..repaired into working condition.

 

This thread was about how a OW can save a marriage.

 

I would put it to you that as long as you are actively in an affair that the marriage cannot be saved.

You would have to dump your MM and then he would have to take what he learned from his experience and then he would have to fix and stay married in order for it to be considered a save..

 

Maybe a OW actively having an affair can only hinder the saving process ?

[Lizzie60]

That is great Lizzie..and I wouldn't expect that you would get married or get married and take the vows..

 

BUT....

 

Your MM did believe in the vows or at the very least they let their wife believe that they meant their promise.. their word..

They did take the vows..

They did break the vows..

 

If they didn't believe in them and they were the kind of people that were good to their word then why do you think they took them ? I guess they were just lying to their wife to be then ?

What kind of person does that ?

Why would you want to be with someone who isn't good to their own word by their own admission ?

 

You know what I think about marriage... I think a lot of guys get married because their gf wants the big 'fairy tale, long white dress' tralala... themselves, they don't give a hoot about the vows... I bet they do it because 'everybody do it' and it's a 'tradition' more than anything else. I'm sure a lot of guys, given the choice, would just 'shack up' with their gf and be happy without all the crap and the waste of money a big wedding is about and the vows and all that nonsense...

 

I don't believe in monogamy...so when they say 'til death do us part' yeah right.. give me a freaken break... they say it because they 'have to' I'd say most of them don't even pay attention to the words...

[michelangelo]

I am one of those "working stiffs" you referred to and am completely aware of how much college costs. I live in a town with one of the top private liberal arts schools in the country and am a student myself.

 

And your "premise"...have you or your W had an A? Exactly how common do you think it is that the MM is spending a small fortune on the OW? Lizzie's case is pretty unique and I don't consider her your average OW. Flowers, candy cards, and trinkets aren't going to break a family, especially when he has money separate from the family expenses.

 

I haven't read anywhere that an A never has a destructive impact on a family. what this post is about is the ways that an A, in the aftermath or the duration can have a positive effect on a M. Whether that be the couple working on things and coming back stronger, or someone being sexually fulfilled elsewhere.

 

BTW there is no definable impact on the family purse strings if the MM/MW doesn't spend money on the OW/OM correct?

 

The wife had one and she would pay a sitter to go screw around, buy expensive makeup and clothes too.

 

The premise is not about 100% depleting the family fortune on infidelity. But I'm not ruling that out either.

 

So if a guy spends $500 a year on an affair, there two ipods for his kids. Or a few fill ups at the gas station.

 

You say big deal or so what.

 

What about paying down the credit card most working stiffs have? Or getting tires on the car?

 

or shoot, as long as y'all like just wasting the cash, why not take the family out to ane expensive dinner instead of the OW?

[Pilgrim]

Art critic is spot on.

 

An OW saving a marriage is like saying a serious road accident that maims you saves your life because you'll drive more carefully after that. Dont kid yourself.

[Lizzie60]

Lizzie.. I'm curious.. How many marriages have you saved ?

 

To me saved means fixed..repaired into working condition.

 

This thread was about how a OW can save a marriage.

 

I would put it to you that as long as you are actively in an affair that the marriage cannot be saved.

You would have to dump your MM and then he would have to take what he learned from his experience and then he would have to fix and stay married in order for it to be considered a save..

 

Maybe a OW actively having an affair can only hinder the saving process ?

 

You are giving your own interpretation of 'saving the marriage'.

 

You would have to dump your MM and then he would have to take what he learned from his experience and then he would have to fix and stay married in order for it to be considered a save..

 

This is not what I meant in my OP...

[Art_Critic]

I think a lot of guys get married because their gf wants the big 'fairy tale, long white dress' tralala... themselves, they don't give a hoot about the vows... I bet they do it because 'everybody do it' and it's a 'tradition' more than anything else. I'm sure a lot of guys, given the choice, would just 'shack up' with their gf and be happy without all the crap and the waste of money a big wedding is about and the vows and all that nonsense...

 

I think I would agree with this more than I disagree with it.. it holds some truth,

 

But.. they still do it...

 

What a huge character flaw that is for them to mislead someone and give someone the fairytale and then back out of their word WITHOUT telling their SO.

That kinda is my point.. we are somewhat on the same page with one big sticking point, I wouldn't want to be around someone who wasn't trustworthy..

 

I have always picked my friends and lovers by their trustworthiness and then I go from there..

I want to surround myself with only the best that I can find.. not from the bottom of the barrel

[Art_Critic]

You are giving your own interpretation of 'saving the marriage'.

 

Of course... it really is all subjective when we are speaking in these kind of terms.

 

Being that the wife isn't privy to your activities then really you aren't saving the marriage.. you are giving him a platform to hurt his wife.

 

What is your definition of BOTH sides of their marriage ?

[Lizzie60]

What a huge character flaw that is for them to mislead someone and give someone the fairytale and then back out of their word WITHOUT telling their SO.

Most men do just that... mislead their wife... because MOST men cheat... and most if not all, would if they were absolutely sure their wife would never find out.... just once...just one single time with an amazing sexy beautiful woman... come on.. admit it...admit it....LOL