Almost at the end of the f**king rope...

[Sheba]

My husband and I have been seeing our marriage counsellor regularly since the beginning of February. He comes every week, listens intently, acts like he is interested in repairing our marriage. However, despite this apparent effort he is still so deeply angry and explosive that we never, ever talk about our problems except at the counsellor's office.

 

One of the exercise we are supposed to do is have him "learn to listen" by having short, pre-arranged discussions with me on a particular topic. The idea is that it will be about a single topic and that it will be brief and that I will respect his need to take a break if he feels himself getting angry. We tried this once since February and it was SO ugly that I have not been able to bring myself to schedule any other discussions. I have confined myself to discussing things in the context of the counselling sessions.

 

This weekend, we are to go to a party at a colleague's cabin. Since we have had some big fights involving similar events, I said to him this morning that I hoped that we could go and have a nice time together and that he would keep my feelings in mind. His response was "I will be solicitous to you like I always am". Well, that was the wrong answer.

 

The "like I always am" part cut me to the core. All of those times we have discussed mistakes he has made in this type of context with the counsellor and all of his acknowledgments that perhaps he could have behaved differently are apparently meaningless. He appears to regret nothing. He appears to be saying that he will behave as he has always behaved.

 

So then, when I tell him - angrily, I admit - that I feel as if he is ignoring the fact that we have had problems at other events, he says "either we will go without any discussion or we won't go".

 

This, I think, is proof that he has not changed one iota. This is exactly the sort of thing he always says. This may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[a4a]

go without him

[Bobster999]

He sounds like a Class A as-shole. I agree--go without him. It doesn't sound like he wants to work on the marriage so you have a major decision to make---either live with a jerk the rest of your life or move on and be happy. I know what I would do.

[VIP]

My husband and I have been seeing our marriage counsellor regularly since the beginning of February. He comes every week, listens intently, acts like he is interested in repairing our marriage. However, despite this apparent effort he is still so deeply angry and explosive that we never, ever talk about our problems except at the counsellor's office.

 

I think marriage is a personal relationship between the two of you. How can a councellor improve it for you? He will not create the connection between the two of you that you seem to have lost. It seems that you are trying to make him feel guilty instead of trying to understand him. What makes him angry, why? Did you try to ask him? Is he satisfied with your marriage? Does he want out? Is it something you do, that makes him angry?

 

One of the exercise we are supposed to do is have him "learn to listen" by having short, pre-arranged discussions with me on a particular topic. The idea is that it will be about a single topic and that it will be brief and that I will respect his need to take a break if he feels himself getting angry. We tried this once since February and it was SO ugly that I have not been able to bring myself to schedule any other discussions. I have confined myself to discussing things in the context of the counselling sessions.

 

What was this discussion about and why was it ugly?

 

So then, when I tell him - angrily, I admit - that I feel as if he is ignoring the fact that we have had problems at other events, he says "either we will go without any discussion or we won't go".

 

I think he is tired of your critisism and bringing it up all the time.

[Touche]

I would simply be VERY specific in asking him (not telling him) to not exhibit whatever the behavior is that you don't like. Tell him how it makes you feel when he displays it. (What IS the behavior anyway? Just curious..but you don't need to say if you don't feel comfortable about it.)

 

And then ask him nicely, if he can refrain from doing whatever is. Ask him if he would do that for you.

[Sheba]

Since the party will be composed of people we BOTH work with, if either one of us went alone it would cause no end of speculation at the office and fan the dying embers of the marriage.

 

I am still trying to throw water on the flames.

 

He has been an assh*le. This is not a matter of only my opinion. The counsellor attributes his conduct to child abuse and part of her goal is to try to get him to admit that he was abused and to see how that causes him to treat me badly. I am losing patience in that process.

 

VIP - I am certain that he feels as if he is being tarred repeatedly for the same incidents. I think he would like to put it behind him, pretend it never happened and go forward with a fresh start. I feel afraid that if he is not able to admit and apologize for it he is bound to repeat it, and I need to hear some acknowledgement. I think both of our points of view are valid - but they are opposite and not reconcilable.

 

Touche - there are many social behaviours that trouble me. One big one is that he uses me as the butt of his jokes in a passive agressive way. He will make fun of the neighbourhood I grew up in, for example. If he were called on the put down, he would say "its just a joke". He will get angry over some little thing, like that I am wearing shoes he thinks are inapporpriate for the occasion. If he gets the least bit annoyed with me, he will do overt things like turn his back to me. Some of these things are embarrassing as well as hurtful. Then, to make matters worse, he will flirt with one of the women we work with - being just as sensitive to her feelings as he is insensitive to mine.

 

He has been told by the counsellor little "rules" for spouses, like "never embarrass your spouse in public", "always pay more positive attention to your spouse than any other person of the opposite sex in the room", "during a party periodically check on your spouse to make sure he/she is still ok". All I hoped to do this morning was to see if we could agree on these rules laid out for us by the counsellor and to go to the party with a deliberate intention to follow them.

 

I lost my temper very quickly. I have since written an email apologizing for losing my temper and asking if we can have a carefully kind discussion later. No reply.

[VIP]

The counsellor attributes his conduct to child abuse and part of her goal is to try to get him to admit that he was abused and to see how that causes him to treat me badly.

 

How does the counsellor know, that he was abused? And even if he was, how does this fact help anything?

 

I feel afraid that if he is not able to admit and apologize for it he is bound to repeat it, and I need to hear some acknowledgement.

 

He might admit and apologize if you didn't come to this issue from the position of force. Besides, I don't think he will apologize in front of the third person - the councellor.

 

He will make fun of the neighbourhood I grew up in, for example. If he were called on the put down, he would say "its just a joke". He will get angry over some little thing, like that I am wearing shoes he thinks are inapporpriate for the occasion. If he gets the least bit annoyed with me, he will do overt things like turn his back to me. Some of these things are embarrassing as well as hurtful.

 

These things are so minor. What do you expect him to be, perfect?

 

He has been told by the counsellor little "rules" for spouses, like "never embarrass your spouse in public", "always pay more positive attention to your spouse than any other person of the opposite sex in the room", "during a party periodically check on your spouse to make sure he/she is still ok". All I hoped to do this morning was to see if we could agree on these rules laid out for us by the counsellor and to go to the party with a deliberate intention to follow them.

 

I'm sure he heard of those rules before, and this party rehearsal is just putting more pressure on him. Whatever he does, must be done freely and willingly, otherwise it's not going to work.

 

I lost my temper very quickly. I have since written an email apologizing for losing my temper and asking if we can have a carefully kind discussion later. No reply.

 

I think he is tired of discussions, and if you don't change your pressure tactics, you might be heading for divorce.

[Pilgrim]

Firstly - sheba it sounds really tough. You're doing remarkably well to be sticking with it.

 

The one silver lining is that now he's said what he has, it does mean you can get the counsellor involved in the motivation for not being willingness to change.

 

I've been in counselling with my other half for about 10 months now, and only 2 weeks ago did we get past the "wanting change" issue, without which you dont really get off the starting blocks with anything else.

 

Thinking and praying 4u

 

 

Pilgrim

[Sheba]

VIP - thanks for taking the time to respond again. The counsellor believes that my husband was abused because he flies off the handle at me over very little. When he is angry he is extremely abusive - yelling, swearing, name-calling - even hitting. The counsellor believes he is abusing me because he was abused and that once he can see that he will be able to stop.

 

I agree that the "party problems" are not huge. But they are all part and parcel of the huge disrespect he has shown me. For me to be willing to stay in this marriage in the face of all that has occured takes signs from him that he wants to change and will change. Otherwise I feel certain that he will continue to be abusive and I just can't take that anymore.

 

So that you understand, things got so bad that my daughter told me I needed help from another adult and my son wanted to defend me with his fists. That day I realized that I was not the only one being hurt by his abuse, and that is why the pressure from me for him to change. I have no other choice, really.

 

I am not perfect at all. I don't expect him to be perfect. I understand that everyone has a bad day or loses their temper now and again, or makes a bad joke, or somehow upsets their spouse without meaning to do so. We all do things we regret. And when we do, we apologize and make amends and make a commitment TO OURSELVES to not do it again. This is what I want from him.

[Sheba]

Pilgrim

 

Thank you for your kind thoughts and understanding. Will you tell me what happened in your counselling two weeks ago? What makes you feel as if you have overcome the "wanting to change" hurdle?

[VIP]

I would give him one month. Let him know, that if he continues swearing, name calling and hitting you, you will file for divorce. It's not something he cannot control, it's something he doesn't try to control (of course if you are not the one provoking these behaviours, which only you would know).

[VIP]

Sorry, I didn't mean to put that smile there.

[Wantingtogetitright]

is the key to marriage but what most people don't get is that love is a verb not an adjective.

 

He does not "love" you. He will be "solicitous".

 

Bullcrap! Why would you put up with this. Yes a marriage should have everything thrown at it to work but with no love what is the basis for "saving" the marriage. If your goldfish was dead would you leave it in the bowl?

[Sheba]

(of course if you are not the one provoking these behaviours, which only you would know).

 

VIP - Do you really think that a person is justified in swearing and yelling and hitting? Calling another person names over and over?

 

Asking if I provoke him is like suggesting I deserve this. Let me tell you something - I DON'T. I have loved him without reservation, been faithful to him, helped him through many difficult times, shared everything I have with him, cared for his children, stroked his ego. I have not hit him, put him down, called him names or threatened him with divorce or, actually, threatened him with anything. The worst I have said to him is that he is not a nice friend.

 

I don't know who deserves to be treated this way. I guess at some level I thought that I did, because I put up with it for years. But I don't. And I don't know anyone who does. And surely my kids don't deserve to hear me called stupid and crazy and be told to "shut the **** up".

 

---------------------------------

 

Wanting - My husband insists that he loves me. I even believe he does, sometimes. But, he loves protecting his image of himself as someone who has done no wrong more.

[Mr. Lucky]

And I don't know anyone who does. And surely my kids don't deserve to hear me called stupid and crazy and be told to "shut the **** up".

I would put up with that from my Spouse once and once only, simply so that I would have an opportunity to make myself perfectly clear as to how I felt about the name calling and personal attacks (especially in front of my kids ). Anything after that would be a dealbreaker...

 

Mr. Lucky

[luvstarved]

Hi Sheba,

 

Man, this all sounds like it is coming to a head for you and you are completely fed up. I know that you know that responding back with anger is not the solution, but I have seriously been there and done that and know how you feel.

 

How are you interacting day to day? You say he is constantly angry and explosive...is every moment of every day on edge, is it all just about mutual hostility right now? Are you getting along at all?

 

I will bring up the term narcissist again, it might not be precise but one of the huge characteristics is this inability to see when they are wrong and a preserve-the-false-self-image-above-all-else demeanor. This sounds very true of your H. The bad news is that this behavior is extremely hard to turn around. But it is possible.

 

Do the following ring true for you at all: say you are being completely accomodating to your H, doing just what he wants you to do - is THAT when he says he loves you and is happy? Does he say you CAUSE his anger? Does he react to anyone else like this? Is he easily offended by innocuous remarks made by coworkers, acquaintances, or is his anger all directed at you? Does he try to get out of doing things he does not want to do, and pick a fight if he cannot get out of it otherwise?

 

I have read, and it has proven to be true for me (whose H is not "classic narcissist" but has about 75% of the traits!!!) that the only thing that jerks a knot in their behinds is to threaten and intimidate. When I withdraw emotionally from my H, he gets angry at first...eventually, he confronts me and I just basically say I am not going to take it anymore and will leave. Next thing I know, he is telling me he loves me, etc. and gets very willing to talk APPROPRIATELY at least for a while. Sadly once he is back to thinking "all is well", he tends to revert.

 

Obviously, this little cycle is not a long term solution but it might get his attention and get him back on track for the big job. For me, I at least get a little bit more out of my system and into his each time. Long term hope? I do not know. Usually I do not even get to the actual threat of leaving, just withdrawing emotionally...which is to say, not getting angry but not really engaging either...basically acting like I do not give a crap about him and his feelings is enough to get him into the position of soliciting reassurance from me...I know it is just jonesing for his "narcissistic supply" but I do get some satisfaction from it from several angles all the same.

 

But...if you do try this route, you do have to mean it at the time. Cannot be bluffing on stuff like this!

 

I feel very bad for you because it seemed like you went into the counseling very optimistic and still had a good sense of love for your H. It sounded then like he was not quite as bad as he is sounding now. Maybe it was all still sinking in after your kids intervened at that point.

 

Being in a very similar boat, I am not sure how helpful my comments are! I am probably full of s**t!! One thing that I do agree with my counselor on is that you have to try to "work your side". This is INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT. It sounds like by now what you really want to do is PUNISH him for the years of abuse he has inflicted on you. I do not blame you for that!!! But he can probably always out-vicious you...so the end result would be more likely to deepen your pain.

 

Please check out a site samvak.tripod.com. It is largely about NPD but does talk about abuse in general and other personality disorders. Another site is drirene.com. More about abuse, with a lot of anecdotal stuff and advice that will probably hit home.

 

Sheba, I am hanging in there (will respond to your inquiry in my own thread). Most of what I hear and read is that these situations are largely hopeless and you either decide to live with them or not. It is SOOOOO painful when you just feel so helpless...like if you COULD JUST GET THROUGH TO THEM, they would unleash the wonderful men inside and happiness would be right at our feet.

 

Have you asked him how HE thinks the counseling is going? It sounded like he was owning up a bit but now reverting...is he showing any signs that he is getting hyperdefensive, thinking it is a waste of time, or opining that you and/or the counselor are misunderstanding him???

 

Sigh! I hope that you can find a useful agenda with which to go to counseling this week. If you are questioning the direction she is going on, ask for clarification. Rather than reviewing the offenses of the week (she has probably gotten the idea by now!) maybe you could try to turn the inquiry around a bit and ask for advice on how you should react to these situations, etc. If you can't control him, in other words, learn how to control your reaction to him...another easier said than done approach but one I am working on to some good effect...I do know that any time I wanted to "prove" that my H had "done me wrong" that week...it just ended up with the hostility and white lies, etc from him so now I am trying the "working on myself" face and that actually has led to better counseling sessions.

 

You have been helpful and insightful for me so maybe I sound presumptuous with these thoughts but I am thinking that we are somewhat mutual sounding boards...actually I'm very thankful for that at the moment!!!

 

Hoping for a positive counseling session for you this week...will look for your post afterward...

[luvstarved]

Believe it or not after that tome, I had another question I just thought of...when he gets mad over something like "wearing the wrong shoes"...does it seem more like he is eye-rolling, actually believing that you have chosen the wrong shoes and have committed some faux pas that embarrasses him...or does it seem like the shoes are a completely arbitrary "reason" to go off on you...i.e. does he tend to stick to his guns on what made him angry or later admit that it really had nothing to do with it at all...

[Sheba]

 

How are you interacting day to day? You say he is constantly angry and explosive...is every moment of every day on edge, is it all just about mutual hostility right now? Are you getting along at all?

We interact OK on a day to day basis. We went out for dinner on the weekend, twice, had good sex and had a nice time. I went to some trouble for him on Father's Day and he was very appreciative. If we could subtract the ugly moments, we would have a GREAT relationship.

 

I will bring up the term narcissist again, it might not be precise but one of the huge characteristics is this inability to see when they are wrong and a preserve-the-false-self-image-above-all-else demeanor. This sounds very true of your H. The bad news is that this behavior is extremely hard to turn around. But it is possible.

 

Do the following ring true for you at all: say you are being completely accomodating to your H, doing just what he wants you to do - is THAT when he says he loves you and is happy? Does he say you CAUSE his anger? Does he react to anyone else like this? Is he easily offended by innocuous remarks made by coworkers, acquaintances, or is his anger all directed at you? Does he try to get out of doing things he does not want to do, and pick a fight if he cannot get out of it otherwise?

 

He absolutely says I cause his anger. He acknowledges an anger control problem but basically says it is only an issue because I am so insecure or whatever the complaint du jour is. He is easily offended by others too. He is easily hurt (and therefore angered) by the children - if they are a little lippy, or don't say "hi" for example. He was actually arrested for assault because he got into a confrontation on a golf course. Unfortunately, 98% of the angry is at me. He doesn't really pick fights to get out of things, except for sex. He has done that.

 

I have read, and it has proven to be true for me (whose H is not "classic narcissist" but has about 75% of the traits!!!) that the only thing that jerks a knot in their behinds is to threaten and intimidate. When I withdraw emotionally from my H, he gets angry at first...eventually, he confronts me and I just basically say I am not going to take it anymore and will leave. Next thing I know, he is telling me he loves me, etc. and gets very willing to talk APPROPRIATELY at least for a while. Sadly once he is back to thinking "all is well", he tends to revert.

I once, and only once, got REALLY REALLY angry at my husband. I was livid and unleashed every bit of my fury. His reaction was stunning. It was as if he were frightened. He was quiet and extremely submissive and that demeanour lasted for days. It wasn't physical, either, by the way. I had no weapons, didn't threaten to kill him - nothing like that. Just yelled and said that I had had it, basically. It isn't very nice to think that I can cause that sort of reaction in anyone. I certainly can't muster up that sort of evil fury on purpose and actually hope to never get so angry again.

 

Sheba, I am hanging in there (will respond to your inquiry in my own thread). Most of what I hear and read is that these situations are largely hopeless and you either decide to live with them or not. It is SOOOOO painful when you just feel so helpless...like if you COULD JUST GET THROUGH TO THEM, they would unleash the wonderful men inside and happiness would be right at our feet.

I do feel that he is capable of wonderfulness and I have a sick feeling that this relationship will have to end before he realizes what his defensiveness and anger has cost him.

 

Have you asked him how HE thinks the counseling is going? It sounded like he was owning up a bit but now reverting...is he showing any signs that he is getting hyperdefensive, thinking it is a waste of time, or opining that you and/or the counselor are misunderstanding him???

He has not dismissed the counselling and says he still wants to go. I do think he is backsliding, but trying to hang on. I think he really hates to be "the bad one" and is struggling a lot with that, but he knows at some level he has screwed up and is trying to make things better by going to counselling.

 

Sigh! I hope that you can find a useful agenda with which to go to counseling this week. If you are questioning the direction she is going on, ask for clarification. Rather than reviewing the offenses of the week (she has probably gotten the idea by now!) maybe you could try to turn the inquiry around a bit and ask for advice on how you should react to these situations, etc. If you can't control him, in other words, learn how to control your reaction to him...another easier said than done approach but one I am working on to some good effect...I do know that any time I wanted to "prove" that my H had "done me wrong" that week...it just ended up with the hostility and white lies, etc from him so now I am trying the "working on myself" face and that actually has led to better counseling sessions.

 

You have given me a good idea. I will tell the counsellor that we need to spend more time on the big issues rather than just reciting the "offences of the week". I understand that the point is to relive them the way we should have dealt with them the first time, so we can learn, but I think the deeper issues are falling by the wayside. As for my "work on myself", I try to do that, but it is a difficult climate to do that work in, to say the least. I am sure that the same is true for him.

 

You have been helpful and insightful for me so maybe I sound presumptuous with these thoughts but I am thinking that we are somewhat mutual sounding boards...actually I'm very thankful for that at the moment!!!

You are not the least bit presumptuous but are very helpful. I appreciate your brain power, sympathy and support immensely. Thank you for giving your time to me, luvstarved!

 

Hoping for a positive counseling session for you this week...will look for your post afterward...

 

I am trying to work myself into an appropriate mind set to have a useful session tomorrow. I will definitely let you know how it goes as soon as I am able.

[Sheba]

Believe it or not after that tome, I had another question I just thought of...when he gets mad over something like "wearing the wrong shoes"...does it seem more like he is eye-rolling, actually believing that you have chosen the wrong shoes and have committed some faux pas that embarrasses him...or does it seem like the shoes are a completely arbitrary "reason" to go off on you...i.e. does he tend to stick to his guns on what made him angry or later admit that it really had nothing to do with it at all...

 

His embarrassment is actually a really instense reaction for him. He is very easily ashamed. So, I think my inapporpriate shoes are actually deeply troubling to him on some level that is rooted in the past. I would never be so embarrassed by his attire, even if I thought it was silly or in poor taste. I might think he should be embarrassed, but I would surely never make an issue of it.

 

Sometimes, he finds arbitrary reasons, other times his reasons are just simply odd and unexpected. Like the shoes. Who would guess their shoes would be so disturbing to their spouse?

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim

 

Thank you for your kind thoughts and understanding. Will you tell me what happened in your counselling two weeks ago? What makes you feel as if you have overcome the "wanting to change" hurdle?

 

Hi Sheba. I've now got a dilemma. I want to share if it's helpful for you, but there is a line I would cross in sharing the detail about the counselling on a public forum like this that I feel I'd be violating my Wife's trust in the confidentiality - and given that rebuilding trust is right up there as a key issue I dont want to cross that line.

 

So, at the risk of a lack of detail, it's been a combination of acting consistently in line with my own values (rather than my feelings) in how I treat her, and some one to one sessions with the counsellor to help her understand her own motivations and responses. she reached a point where whilst her feelings oscilate, on balance she wants change and would prefer it to work and was able to say that to me. I dont fully know why or how we made progress (maddening I know) and it has felt painfully slow, but I thank God for a glimmer of hope in a rough rough time.

 

Sorry if that isn't much help. Hope you're able to keep going.

 

Take Care

 

Pilgrim

[Bobster999]

Good grief! He yells and screams at you in front of the kids and hits you! Why in the world would you stay in this situation? Leave the jerk before he seriously hurts you.

[Sheba]

Thanks Pilgrim. I understand completely your need to set boundaries on what you reveal. Thank you again for your response. I will take heart in the fact you are seeing progress in resolving your issues.

 

Bobster - I surely ask myself that "why" question. He has many good qualities. In fact, if he could get rid of his anger problem, he would be "perfect" - smart, funny, good looking, generous. I haven't cleaned a toilet in years! At his best he is so good that right now I am prepared to put some effort into seeing if he can get past the worst.

 

Incidentally, he has stopped yelling insults at me when my children might hear. I think he realizes that if there is another confrontation between him and my son over his treatment of me, that will be the end. I will not allow my child to become my unsought knight in shining armour.

[azera]

Sheba you shouldnt think its your fault for anything he does. He probably was abused when he was young. My husband was just like your husband and he was abused by his parents,he also watched his father hit his mother and verbally abuse her, and thats the way he treated me. But unlike you I didnt go to marriage counciling I just told him I couldnt take it anymore and that if he didnt change he had to leave and I wanted a divorce. Luckily for me he said he loved me to much to leave and he did change, its been 2 yrs and things couldnt get any better.