Can you Ever Really Forgive?

[sunseed]

My husband and I are finally in counseling for real after two years of marriage, one year of his therapy for secretive compulsive masturbation and my trust issues with him and difficulty letting go. The worst issue though, has been his communication style. He says HORRIBLE, frightening, trust-destroying things to me during disputes, especially if I am feeling unsure about us (which I do lately because of his near-abandonment of me the day I told him I was pregnant a month ago and his refusal to "make any promises" about staying with me for like two weeks after. Yes, I'm pregnant. Oh joy.) The history of his damaging communication style goes back quite a while, well before the past month. It's definitely a habit of his that has kept me on a tightrope through much of our relationship. He tells me one thing, then a few days or weeks or months later during an argument he'll end up saying something completely different (like, whether or not he's committed to me or wants to keep the baby, or in the past, whether or not he'd go part time in school if we did get pregnant, and many, many other agreements). And I am devastated. He's confessed to pulling out those horrid statements when he doesn't know what else to do and is trying to communicate something to me, so great I guess, but I can't trust him in this environment and he talks like there's something very wrong with me when I look for reassurance or consistency.

 

Ok, the sketch above is only the background for my question, and not the reason I'm writing. We have therapy to address it. My question for LS is below.

 

Just today it seems like he might be starting to understand that this is damaging, very bad communication. So great. We will be seeing our new therapist again in a couple weeks and then every week for who knows how long. My husband has stated more clearly that he's committed to working on our relationship even though he doesn't feel "in love" with me right now and wants to get back to that. Great again I guess. My question:

 

Is forgiveness in this situation possible? Can you be verbally abused and kept on an emotional tightrope for two years and practically abandoned when pregnant...and forgive? If he learns better communication and uses it and helps foster trust, is it actually possible to shake off the pain and truly move forward? This has been going on for so long I doubt my ability to forgive him when it comes time to do so. I'm afraid I will hate him. Is there anyone out there who's really turned it around and forgiven their mate for scaring and hurting them over and over?

[sunseed]

Hi, look, I know this may not be as interesting as porn or cheating but I really sincerely could use some response from the LS community. Is anyone out there?

[FireandIce]

Number one, I think it's disgusting that he acts as though you being pregnant is a bother to him (that's sort of how it sounds in your post). How long have the two of you been married? It takes two to make a baby and I assume he was with you when it happened so he needs to grow up and start accepting the responsibility.

 

As for your question, well I could never stay with someone that said they don't love me anymore. I don't care if they say they are willing to try, I'm worth more than that. It sounds like it's been a very rough couple of years with you doing most of the work and that's not fair. You have a baby on the way and your priorities are going to change and honestly, I don't think your husband will be able to deal with that. Time to look out for you and your child and if he wants to be part of that then great. If not then quit focusing so much of your energy towards him, he doesn't sound like he's worth it.

[sunseed]

Hi f&i, he hasn't indicated that I got pregnant to bother him, but I can see how that seems to come through in my post. Basically he's a depressive person (on meds, thank god) who has little relationship skills and a temper problem resulting from both. One thing I can say is that his parents are amazing in supporting me and are taking a very fair perspective about this, noting that we're in a bad--and shared--communication pattern but as for the pregnancy, to quote his mother, "he'll just have to deal with it." And I couldn't agree more. Because friends, I've terminated a pregnancy one time. It was the right decision for the time, no question about it--I was in college and in a long-term relationship but we were not partnered and were beyond broke. But after an abortion, things do not simply get better in a relationship. They get harder. Plus, I just don't want to have one again.

 

I'm in a place where since I'm married (which to me means committed until all possibilities are exhausted), I'm with this guy for the long haul. No, it doesn't look like the sweetest future at this point, but it is what it is and I'm trying to muddle through. We're both committed to working on our issues in and out of therapy, so that's a positive, and he has finally accepted that communication is pretty much the problem between us. Another positive.

 

But f&i, you are spot on that I've been putting too much energy into him. That's part of the problem. I've definitely taken more responsibility for this relationship than I should have ever done.

 

As for the baby, I'm resolved to have it. I know I'll be looked after financially (his parents have made that abundantly clear) and he would never begrudge me a dime besides. The timing sucks, no question about it, and I never wanted to chance being a single mom, but I'm not interested in wringing my hands and backing down when I have most of what I need for childbearing--education, a career and yes, marriage, if a questionable one. Yes, I wish my husband were more into fatherhood right now. He may never be. He may become so. Who knows. But you're right that I have to start taking care of myself and my baby, who is now about 10 weeks in.

 

But if we move forward and succeed, can I forgive all this?

[Cerise]

Forgivness is somthing we do for our selves and not the other person.

 

Most people belive that when we forgive were letting the person who did somthing wrong off the hook and saying 'it's ok' ect and forgetting it, or 'wiping the slate clean' for them.

 

The true nature of forgivness has nothing to do with them it has to do you choising to let go and accept - NOT forgetting! When you forgive you allow youself to feel the true nature of what it has done to you and allows you to say 'ok this is not somthing I have control over and I am no longer going to allow it to control my emotional stability' It gives you the freedom to understand and let go, move on within yourself.

 

We are taught in life that when somone does somthing wrong to you they need to say sorry and you are supossed to walk up to them and say it is all ok, when really it isn't. You are suposed to never bring it up again and forget it ever happend, well IMO that is blocking and not true forgivness and will come back to haunt you in the future.

 

So I guess what I am saying is no you shouldn't 'forgive' him, you should look at how you feel and what has got you there and when you can find a way to accept that this is what it is and let go of the emotional control it has over you then you are ready to forgive, because you are doing it for your own freedom not for him.

 

Unfortunatly this is all much harder to do then go to him and say it is all ok, I forgive you, but the end result will last instead of coming back to haunt you 5 years from now.

[directx]

I'll answer the topic but I honestly didnt read that big wall of text.

 

Yes, you can forgive, but forgiviness does not mean FORGETTING.

A partners deception can be forgiven (if you want), but that partner blew all integrity in that area of the lives, so never FORGET

[Mustang Sally]

Yes, you can forgive, but forgiviness does not mean FORGETTING.

A partners deception can be forgiven (if you want), but that partner blew all integrity in that area of the lives, so never FORGET

Forgetting = moving on, letting bygones be bygones...water under.

 

If you can't FORGET, then I say you are not FORGIVING.

Not really.

 

Gotta tell you the way I see it, babe.

[Cerise]

Forgetting = moving on, letting bygones be bygones...water under.

 

If you can't FORGET, then I say you are not FORGIVING.

Not really.

 

Gotta tell you the way I see it, babe.

 

To forgive you are acepting and letting go with in yourself it is still there it just dosn't hurt cause you've accepted it, you don't forget.

 

To forget you blocking it out and pretending it isn't there but when you do remeber it still hurts.

 

You forgive for your own comfort.

You forget for the other persons comfort.

 

Just my opinion.

[directx]

Forgetting = moving on, letting bygones be bygones...water under.

 

If you can't FORGET, then I say you are not FORGIVING.

Not really.

 

Gotta tell you the way I see it, babe.

 

Well, I'll tell you how I see it sweetheart.

If you forgive and forget, and then get blasted with the same thing again, do you keep forgiving?

 

"Hey honey! I slept with my ex! Im so sorry! It'll never happen again!"

"I forgive you."

 

Next Month:

"Hey honey! I slept with my ex-boyfriend, and now have crabs, and some kind of weird discharge! Im so sorry! I promise it won't happen again!"

"Cripe! Thats twice! How can I trust you?"

"Twice? How could you say that? Then YOU never REALLY forgave and FORGOT!"

"Ok, I forgive you again! What did you do?"

 

(gee, who is the idiot in this story? (I know, besides me. Ha ha.))

 

I can forgive once, but when you get the promise it wont happen again and it does, forget it!

 

And thats how I see it.

 

I think Forgive and Forget should actually be 'Forgive and don't hang it over your partners head, but dont forget'.

[silktricks]

Yes, you can forgive - forgetting is far more difficult. If forgetting means it NEVER EVER EVER comes to mind, then I think it's unlikely. If it means that you don't dwell on it, don't throw it up constantly, then yes it's possible.

 

I applaud your desire to honor your commitment to marriage and not take your vows as lightly as so many do. If you want to make the marriage work, you will need to work on forgiving him for his treatment of you. But that supposes that the bad treatment has ceased and he both wants and deserves forgiveness.

 

So possibly more to the point, is forgiving and forgetting the best possible action to take in the circumstances? Frankly, I would be a little gunshy at this point is I were you, and see how his actions measure up against his words. In my opinion, he's got quite a bit to prove to you before you start working on the forgiving part, but as I say, that's just my opinion.

 

Best of luck to you and your unborn child.

[Cerise]

Well, I'll tell you how I see it sweetheart.

If you forgive and forget, and then get blasted with the same thing again, do you keep forgiving?

 

"Hey honey! I slept with my ex! Im so sorry! It'll never happen again!"

"I forgive you."

 

Next Month:

"Hey honey! I slept with my ex-boyfriend, and now have crabs, and some kind of weird discharge! Im so sorry! I promise it won't happen again!"

"Cripe! Thats twice! How can I trust you?"

"Twice? How could you say that? Then YOU never REALLY forgave and FORGOT!"

"Ok, I forgive you again! What did you do?"

 

(gee, who is the idiot in this story? (I know, besides me. Ha ha.))

 

I can forgive once, but when you get the promise it wont happen again and it does, forget it!

 

And thats how I see it.

 

I think Forgive and Forget should actually be 'Forgive and don't hang it over your partners head, but dont forget'.

 

I tend to agree with this. to forgive it letting go of it, and the reality is can you ever truley forget? No, unless maybe you suffer from amneasia lol.

[Mustang Sally]

Not hanging it over your partner's head is making some sort of peace with the situation. But you and I both know you aren't really forgiving. You are just resigning yourself to what you think is a settled situation.

 

Come on. Don't insult my intelligence, or yours.

 

You might have made peace with it. But if it still gets you - like a knife twisting in your side - then you have not forgiven.

 

Semantics? You might argue that's all it is. But I don't think so. I think it is fooling oneself. Because you can't sleep with yourself (or your partner) otherwise.

[directx]

The reality of it is you CANNOT forget.

Its just not physically possible.

 

Especially when you experience getting hurt. Betrayal by your partner is not a 2 second thing. Its an entire traumatic experience where the consequences of his/her actions could last for months, even years to rectify, depending on what happened.

 

It doesnt all go away after a confession and a forgiveness session.

Would you expect a partner to get over what the other did after a confession the next day? Read some posts on here and you will see how betrayal is eating up some people here for months. Years even.

 

Its like getting your finger caught in the door or leaning on an oven.

Granted they are inanimate objects, but boy, these things you learn ONCE, and why? Because its natures way of teaching you how to protect yourself.

 

Pain is the best teacher. Reason being you mostly only have to learn things once.

 

Are you going to tell me if your partner cheated on you, you forgave and forget, and the same situation comes up in a movie, you are not going to be reminded?

 

I wish accepting "I'm sorry" made it all go away.

[Mustang Sally]

Hmmm.

Well.

 

Maybe in some cases, it just takes a really long amount of time for it to truly become less (or in-)significant?

 

It's what you do with your life (and to your partner) during that waiting period that can make it or break it (the relationship), I think.

[silktricks]

Not hanging it over your partner's head is making some sort of peace with the situation. But you and I both know you aren't really forgiving. You are just resigning yourself to what you think is a settled situation.

 

Come on. Don't insult my intelligence, or yours.

 

You might have made peace with it. But if it still gets you - like a knife twisting in your side - then you have not forgiven.

 

Semantics? You might argue that's all it is. But I don't think so. I think it is fooling oneself. Because you can't sleep with yourself (or your partner) otherwise.

 

There is a WORLD of difference between "not hanging it over your partner's head" and "it still gets you - like a knife twisting in your side". If you think the two of those relate in some way, I think you are wrong.

 

Forgiving is NOT forgetting, otherwise we wouldn't be told to forgive AND forget. They are two separate and distinct actions. But since experience is also the best teacher, if everytime we forgive someone for their actions we also forget that it happened, then we haven't really learned anything.

 

I don't think "forgive and forget" means you are supposed to wipe it out of your memory. Otherwise our past would just have huge holes is it. I think forgive and forget means:

 

forgive:

1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit

3.to grant pardon to (a person).

4.to cease to feel resentment against

5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of

6.to pardon an offense or an offender

 

but forget in this context, I believe means:

4.to omit mentioning; leave unnoticed.

5.to fail to think of; take no note of.

 

It's not that you never think of it again. It's part of your past, part of your history, part of what has made you who you are today. But you no longer take note of it. You don't talk about it, you leave it behind you.

[sunseed]

Wow, thank you guys. What a cool discussion on the nature of forgiveness. I am especially relating to Cerise's definition of forgiveness as something one does for oneself to accept the situation as it is (or has been) and shed any control it has over you emotionally. IMO it doesn't mean telling yourself or the offending party that what they did is ok or forgotten. It seems to me that that would just lead to you believing that it IS ok, thus clearing the way for it to happen again. But no, you don't bring old stuff up if you want to move on, I think.

 

I will never forget. And if I forgive I don't even know if we'll stay together because I do have a limit. But he is aware that his behavior is wrong and has some insight into why he does it (just barely). He is aware that it must change. As to whether or not it will, we shall see. But he's in therapy by himself and in a men's group, and we are in counseling together with a therapist who commented on our first meeting that we "seem to be holding each other hostage, emotionally." My aim is to free myself from the captivity and then see if we can work. If not, sucko. So be it. But it won't be me who effed up.

[Mustang Sally]

You know what Silk?

I completely agree with you.

 

The nature of the point I was trying to make was actually more about

another specific situation, and probably not really that applicable or appropriate for this thread's general audience.

 

My apologies!