will my wife ever come back to me

[confuzd]

yq good to see others think as I do, not all relationships will make it, and each situation is different for sure, but I do believe marriages can be saved with the right attitude. thanks for the support

 

lysne once again your wisdom transcends through my monitor , I will never hurt my wife again that is a promise.

 

caliguy thanks for following my post I guess we will have to agree to disagree,the reason for divorce etc is because love is logical, a little too logical and more people logically choose not to love the other any more,. the feelings are gone or are buried and it is a logical choice to divorce rather to show true love and stick it out.the emotion is caused by the logical act of love,love is not an emotion but is more a verb which causes nice feelings that people call loving feelings

 

confuzd

[CaliGuy]

caliguy thanks for following my post I guess we will have to agree to disagree,the reason for divorce etc is because love is logical, a little too logical and more people logically choose not to love the other any more,. the feelings are gone or are buried and it is a logical choice to divorce rather to show true love and stick it out.the emotion is caused by the logical act of love,love is not an emotion but is more a verb which causes nice feelings that people call loving feelings

 

confuzd

 

 

Confuzd, you gotta do what you gotta do. I do believe the longer you try and equate your wife's actions with logic you will not succeed. Love is NOT and never has been a logical emotion for the reasons I stated above. Feelings are not logical and they never have been. Most men approach love and emotion in a logical fashion and it's why they never understand when things don't go as planned. (ie: "I love her, I buy her things to show my love yet she doesn't respond. That's not logical.")

 

I am not wishing for you to divorce but you need to prepare for that as a possible outcome. I'm a firm believer in doing whatever you can to make a marriage work. That's why I keep pushing you to read Love Must Be Tough. Dr. Dobson also believes in doing whatever you can to save the marriage. But he also knows that at some point you have to take your dignity and whatever is left and walk away. I don't think you are at that point yet but I do believe if you continue to cater to your wife's every whim she'll lose respect for you. Once she loses respect for you the foundation of love will dissolve and your marriage will be unrecoverable.

 

At this point she needs to grasp what she is losing. She will never know that if you are bending over backwards to meet her every need. The concept of "Love Must Be Tough" is simply that you need to man up and let her see what would happen should your marriage dissolve. Have you ever been to Marriage Builders? There a list of like 25 or 30 DO NOT DOs that I think you should read and heed.

 

Bottom line is I want to see you succeed in winning your wife back. But you also have the issue of her infidelity (twice over now) and her wishy-washy-ness. She needs tough love. And she needs you to show it to her.

 

Sooner, rather than later.

[lysne]

Hi CaliGuy. We have a lot more common ground than you think. I'm a big believer in "tough love" myself.

 

The crux of the problem in Confuzd's case is that it's his wife that thinks that by moving out SHE is the one administering "tough love" for a litany of wrongs committed by Confuzd. We don't know objectively whether her position has merit or not, but since both she and Confuzd take that view, it doesn't matter. Confuzd did read your book a few weeks ago, and I remember that he came back saying it was full of good advice for someone on the other side of the fence - ie, his wife.

 

The point of tough love is to try to elicit the behavior you want from a wayward spouse by letting that spouse know that their position in your life as they have known it is in jeopardy. But "tough love" doesn't work when two people are trying to practice it at the same time. Confuzd's wife is already gone and if he gives her tough love, she's going to just walk. Admittedly, it's hard to see exactly what SHOULD be done in this situation gone FUBAR, because we hate seeing Confuzd get hurt or walked on for his efforts, and as you have said, there are some pitfalls in trying to be the good guy. But ultimately that's what his wife really wants - the good guy. She is nurturing a victim complex way beyond what a threat to leave her can cure. That will just validate what's already rattling around in her brain and save her from having to decide anything.

 

Most people would throw in the towel by this point. But most people aren't Confuzd. He's doing fine now. He's not pushing her, he's not catering, he's established his own rules of contact and follows them. He's just proving his mettle as a husband and a man in EXACTLY the ways that he failed before. He's proving he can go the distance. Until Confuzd is ready to take his ball and go home, there's no other strategy really.

[confuzd]

Thank you Lysne,

 

Yes I also agree with tough love, and yes I have backed off, I am so glad you recognize that.

 

You are so right two people showing tough love would be like to stubborn bulls facing off.

 

If I remember, Caliguy you showed alot of tough love and never got your woman back. I don't think you even wanted too which is cool for you but it is not my case. I have alot of respect for you being able to go no contact as long as you did, but my goal is to save my marriage.

 

As far as love being an emotion or the or an act, well it's not really important I guess, we could probably go on and on about what came first the chicken or the egg, (by the way I choose egg).

 

What matters is that I have come along way from where I started, I have made tremendous progress with my wife.

 

She came to get my son today, and she told me about her day for about 45 minutes, I laughed at her jokes and showed sincere interest. I was not needy at all and when she left I didnt try to get her to stay longer. It was a great atmosphere and all was comfortable.

 

there is even talk about her possibly going on the cruise that we have set up for next month. If not I will go by myself with my son, but she is considering it now.

 

She is still scared, and does not want me to think that my work is done here, and believe me I don't. I know I have a long way to go, as does she.

 

I think lysne is right though she will not truly be able to focus on her mistakes until I have assured her that I have made up for my years of mistakes. That is okay with me.

 

thanks for the support Lysne and for understanding me.

 

I love the conversation Caliguy, I think we could have some really interesting conversation over a few beers.

 

Confuzd

[confuzd]

I was heading out the door and had a thought Caliguy,

 

"tough love"

as you and Dr Dobson describes it is basically,

 

*backing off

*making a person choose

*basically showing that you are not taking anymore crap in hopes to ellicit a response that the person will come to their senses, or rather to get yourself in a position where you will be okay either way.

 

I was thinking, all of those points seem to be "actions" not "emotions" so even tough love is an "action" trying to elicit an "emotion".

 

making it very logical, so logical that they wrote a step by step book on how to logically show tough logical love.

 

Okay just had to throw that out there, sorry we can put this baby to sleep, but I just couldn't pass that up LOL!!

[CaliGuy]

Hi CaliGuy. We have a lot more common ground than you think. I'm a big believer in "tough love" myself.

 

The crux of the problem in Confuzd's case is that it's his wife that thinks that by moving out SHE is the one administering "tough love" for a litany of wrongs committed by Confuzd. We don't know objectively whether her position has merit or not, but since both she and Confuzd take that view, it doesn't matter. Confuzd did read your book a few weeks ago, and I remember that he came back saying it was full of good advice for someone on the other side of the fence - ie, his wife.

 

True, but her behavior (manipulation) should be met with a strern stance of tough love. That means "If you want to play this game, that's fine, but I won't."

 

IMHO, while I think we agree on a lot of things, I do not believe that by catering to her every whim, answering every call and returning her bad behvior with love and praise is the way to go about it.

 

His wife still doesn't understand the implications of her behavior and it's mostly because Confuzd is not making her feel tough love, whatsoever.

 

I'm a firm believer in the simple logic that she is not going to realize the err of her ways if he continues his current behavior.

 

The point of tough love is to try to elicit the behavior you want from a wayward spouse by letting that spouse know that their position in your life as they have known it is in jeopardy. But "tough love" doesn't work when two people are trying to practice it at the same time. Confuzd's wife is already gone and if he gives her tough love, she's going to just walk. Admittedly, it's hard to see exactly what SHOULD be done in this situation gone FUBAR, because we hate seeing Confuzd get hurt or walked on for his efforts, and as you have said, there are some pitfalls in trying to be the good guy. But ultimately that's what his wife really wants - the good guy. She is nurturing a victim complex way beyond what a threat to leave her can cure. That will just validate what's already rattling around in her brain and save her from having to decide anything.

 

I don't know that I agree 100% with that assesment. What I see is a very selfish wife who's probably going through a very confused part of her life as well. They both married admittedly young and probably never experienced a free will adult life.

 

I've seen this happen to my own family before. Ultimately nothing may work for them but time. But I do believe if he does not take a stance with her then he'll lose her anyway, regardless of how much he tries to win her back.

 

At this point, I don't see what he has to lose by simply telling her that if she wants space, he'll give it to her and then move on with his life. He can not destroy his own life by waiting for her to fix hers. He needs to take care of himself and his son first.

 

Most people would throw in the towel by this point. But most people aren't Confuzd. He's doing fine now. He's not pushing her, he's not catering, he's established his own rules of contact and follows them. He's just proving his mettle as a husband and a man in EXACTLY the ways that he failed before. He's proving he can go the distance. Until Confuzd is ready to take his ball and go home, there's no other strategy really.

 

I'm not sure we're talking about the same guy here. He admits that he questions her often about the relationship, talks to her often on the phone (though not lately), etc. What I am saying is if you read Marriage Builders and the plans they have there for wayward spouses, what he is doing is more likely to push her away then bring her back.

 

Right now she's out living the high life with no real repercussions. Unless she comes to grip with what she's about to give up, I don't really see her coming around. At all.

[CaliGuy]

I was heading out the door and had a thought Caliguy,

 

"tough love"

as you and Dr Dobson describes it is basically,

 

*backing off

*making a person choose

*basically showing that you are not taking anymore crap in hopes to ellicit a response that the person will come to their senses, or rather to get yourself in a position where you will be okay either way.

 

I was thinking, all of those points seem to be "actions" not "emotions" so even tough love is an "action" trying to elicit an "emotion".

 

making it very logical, so logical that they wrote a step by step book on how to logically show tough logical love.

 

Okay just had to throw that out there, sorry we can put this baby to sleep, but I just couldn't pass that up LOL!!

 

 

If you really read Dr. Dobson's book then you'd know he goes into much more depth than how you've summed it up here. This is merely the surface. His book does echo a lot of the sentiments in Marriage Builders and other sites (and he has been giving this advice for some 30 odd years).

 

What he is saying is simply that your wife is like many wayward spouses who are feeling trapped in a marriage. They want the freedom to love without feeling caged in. That clingy behavior that you have shown in the past, while understandable, did more harm than you realize.

 

I understand that you want to fight for your marriage, but given the hole you both have dug yourselves in I really think it's time you put your foot down and lay down the law with her.

 

Granted, she did say she was "considering" working on the marriage, but remember the rule: Believe NONE of what they say and ALL of what they do. Until she makes a concerted effort to work on the marriage she's blowing a lot of hot air.

 

If she really wanted to make an effort, she'd go to couples counseling with you.

 

But I don't think she's going to do anything until YOU put your foot down. I'm not sure that I'm ready to say file divorce papers yet, but she needs to understand that you're not going to wait around forever for her to get her act together.

 

You need to take care of YOU. And you can not do that when you are always worried about what she is going to do or say. You can not tiptoe around her feelings now. She's stepped all over yours with very little regret.

[confuzd]

Caliguy,

 

Im not sure you are reading my thread or even notice the progress, because you are telling me to do stuff that I have already done.

 

I told her I am not waiting around, and I have backed off with all phone calls. I haven't called her in a pretty long time, aside from our most recent talk.

 

You seem to be so sure about stuff, but you are only making assumptions, I see my wifes face every day, and she is not living the high life.

 

Could it be possible, that she is regretting her decision, could it be possible that she is a decent human being that realizes she loves her family, could it be possible that she is truly having second thoughts, could it be possible that she is hurting as well, could it be possible that she feels bad for her decision.

 

In your mind it seems as if you are so stuck on being right that you fail to see any positives.

 

You are talking about backing off and no contact at a time when my wife is coming around, being more loving, and talking of reconciliation. That is totally absurd.

 

I understand your stance, but I totally disagree in my situation. There are plenty of people on this board who may benefit from your advice, because it seems as if this is the only advice you ever offer to anyone.

 

File for divorce, are you serious???? if there ever was a point where that was an option it is in the past.

 

I did take a stance, I did back off, I made it very clear, I gave her her space. I don't understand why you insist on telling me to do things I have already done.

 

And yes it worked, but you want me to over do it. You over did it in your situation with your woman, I am not going to over do it.

 

I did it and it obviously has worked, as a matter of fact I am still doing it, I still do not call, although I may start to text her everyonce in a while that is still to be determined

 

She came in and gave me another hug this morning, and was very sweet. Maybe I should run to the attorney and start the papers.

 

I'm starting to think that you are the one who is not following the story, Lysne obviously has been following.

 

I am really convinced you either are Dr Dobson himself, or you work for him. That's the problem with your advice, there is no bending or compromise. You feel ultimate doom for people who don't follow your advice to the T.

 

Im willing to bet that if my wife told me she loved me and we made up and where back living together, you would probably still say "show her tough love" "make her pay for her mistakes" "only then will she respect you" "otherwise it will never work"

 

Anyways, I do hope your not getting mad, or are taking offense to anything. I'm sure you don't agree with me but I'm okay with that.

 

Take it easy Caliguy

 

 

Confuzd

[Reckless]

Hey confuzd,

 

I haven't read your thread for a bit but I'm glad things seem to be working out - if anyone deserves it YOU do you have really worked hard and I'm glad things seem to be working out for you both.. like you said if its working keep doing it - we don't know your wife but you do and if she's talking about reconcilation it seems as if your intuition has proved to be spot on.

 

I would recommend going to councelling together once she moves back because you do both need to make sure this never happens again but well done for your perseverence.

 

I'm really HAPPY things seem to be working out!

 

Reckless

[Citizen Erased]

Caliguy,

 

Im not sure you are reading my thread or even notice the progress, because you are telling me to do stuff that I have already done.

 

I told her I am not waiting around, and I have backed off with all phone calls. I haven't called her in a pretty long time, aside from our most recent talk.

 

You seem to be so sure about stuff, but you are only making assumptions, I see my wifes face every day, and she is not living the high life.

 

Could it be possible, that she is regretting her decision, could it be possible that she is a decent human being that realizes she loves her family, could it be possible that she is truly having second thoughts, could it be possible that she is hurting as well, could it be possible that she feels bad for her decision.

 

In your mind it seems as if you are so stuck on being right that you fail to see any positives.

 

You are talking about backing off and no contact at a time when my wife is coming around, being more loving, and talking of reconciliation. That is totally absurd.

 

I understand your stance, but I totally disagree in my situation. There are plenty of people on this board who may benefit from your advice, because it seems as if this is the only advice you ever offer to anyone.

 

File for divorce, are you serious???? if there ever was a point where that was an option it is in the past.

 

I did take a stance, I did back off, I made it very clear, I gave her her space. I don't understand why you insist on telling me to do things I have already done.

 

And yes it worked, but you want me to over do it. You over did it in your situation with your woman, I am not going to over do it.

 

I did it and it obviously has worked, as a matter of fact I am still doing it, I still do not call, although I may start to text her everyonce in a while that is still to be determined

 

She came in and gave me another hug this morning, and was very sweet. Maybe I should run to the attorney and start the papers.

 

I'm starting to think that you are the one who is not following the story, Lysne obviously has been following.

 

I am really convinced you either are Dr Dobson himself, or you work for him. That's the problem with your advice, there is no bending or compromise. You feel ultimate doom for people who don't follow your advice to the T.

 

Im willing to bet that if my wife told me she loved me and we made up and where back living together, you would probably still say "show her tough love" "make her pay for her mistakes" "only then will she respect you" "otherwise it will never work"

 

Anyways, I do hope your not getting mad, or are taking offense to anything. I'm sure you don't agree with me but I'm okay with that.

 

Take it easy Caliguy

 

 

Confuzd

 

um Confuzd, CaliGuy said:

 

I'm not sure that I'm ready to say file divorce papers yet, but she needs to understand that you're not going to wait around forever for her to get her act together.

 

He never told you to, read the rest of what he wrote.

 

Quite alot of your comments were not warranted honey, he was only trying to help. And if anyone knows how to give advice in these situations it is him. I understand you are frustrated but just know we are all cheering you along on the sidelines. Hell I have my pom poms at the ready

[jmargel]

Confuzd it seems like she is just giving you little bits of scrap now and then and you are devouring it like a hungry wolf. Even a hug to you is now a huge, day-changing thing. This from a woman who has been having sex with another guy and telling him she loves him.

 

You didn't take a stance, you are still coddling her and still stroking her hair telling her everything will be ok. She still doesn't respect you, because you don't respect yourself. You are way too dependent on her! That's what she means about space. It's not about time, it's about defining who you are and not basing it on your spouse. You are so fearful of rejection that you will accept anything done to you as long as she still gives you some affection now and then.

 

Honestly from your posts she has not come around, I don't see the two of you going to counseling together and I don't see her saying 'I want this marriage to work and I am going to put 110% into it'. You are ignoring the major issues here and just living in a dream world that she has helped create. You don't think she is still seeing what is out there? You don't think she is still talking to this guy? I can guarantee she is, at least if not talking, thinking about him.

 

You can't wait around hoping someone will *want* you even if it is your wife. It doesn't matter how seriously you take your vows, if she is not committed to make this work then it won't. She continues to act like a teenager and you are still acting like the whipped parent telling her everything is fine.

 

Tough love is MOVING ON WITH YOUR LIFE, WITHOUT HER. I tried being polite in my previous posts but you honestly need a kick in the ass. You continue to roll over and piddle for this woman. Do you like being treated this way? Have you endured so much abuse from this chick that what you get now from her is considered good? What are you exactly getting out of this so-called marriage? When are you going to start enjoying your life and thinking about the future without her?

 

Honestly in my opinion it's only a matter of time before she hits you with the reality that she no longer wants to be in the marriage. But when she does this, guess what? You will still live. You will still be able to move on with your life. You have become so clingy and needy that you are taking offense to other posters on here who have experienced what you are going through and telling us we are wrong.

 

We know the signs, we know the words they speak and the things they do. You are holding on from letting the inevidable from happening. Let yourself move on from her so that you can heal. This is a game you can't win, the only way to win is to not play it.

 

If you don't find help for yourself soon you are going to suffer mentally. I can bet most of your days and nights are consumed by the thoughts of her, romanticizing the past, replaying the things she said or did the day before. You fail to face the reality of what all she has done wrong and continues to do wrong. Don't expect things to change when you continue to do the same thing over and over.

 

Like Caliguy's signature don't ever consider someone a priority when they think of you as an option. That is what she is thinking of you right now and you will NOT be able to persuade her otherwise. It's time to move on, and it is ok to do this.

[confuzd]

the backlash is in full force,

 

I don't take offense to any comment, I understand people think that my marriage is over and there is no chance for reconciliation. I disagree.

 

Plain and simple.

 

I stand by my comments, and don't think any comment I made was unwarranted, Maybe I should start putting some smiley faces in there to show that I am not upset or frustrated.

 

I enjoy the debate, as and my feelings don't get hurt to easy.

 

Alot of what you said Jmargel does not describe my current living situation or state of mind, although it used too.

 

Yeah you have been through what I have been through, to a degree, but I think your goals were different, and if your goals weren't different and you were trying to save your relationship then you obviously failed, and now beleive every one in a situation similar to yours will also fail.

 

Im not grabbing scraps, I am keeping hope.

 

why is hope considered a dream world, but the total opposite is called keeping it real.

 

Theres always two ways to think, and negative thinking never made anyone successful.

 

whether it be in business or life.

 

My whole point is that there needs to be a little more hope around this place, there is enough people crushing hope, and calling it good advice.

 

I hope that for at least one person who truly wants to save their marriage, that I can be a ray of hope for them. I have found many rays of hope for me and I can truly say that they are what gets me through.

 

You see all the signs and say it is over, I can compare the same signs to other who have had success (which you haven't) and say it is far from over. I would rather follow those that have had success, than those that haven't and are bitter.

 

you say it is over, I say it isn't.

 

I think I am in a better position than you to make that determination.

 

No hard feelings towards anyone, I write all this with a smile.:):p

[jmargel]

I did take a stance, I did back off, I made it very clear, I gave her her space. I don't understand why you insist on telling me to do things I have already done.

 

Not calling for a couple of days is not giving space. Giving space is not calling or contacting for months and allowing yourself to unglue your dependency from her. It's when you can talk to her or give her a hug without hoping or expecting any sort of rekindling of your past love for each other. It's able to look at her as a person not as your wife.

 

Alot of what you said Jmargel does not describe my current living situation or state of mind, although it used too.

 

Yeah you have been through what I have been through, to a degree, but I think your goals were different, and if your goals weren't different and you were trying to save your relationship then you obviously failed, and now beleive every one in a situation similar to yours will also fail.

 

My goal at first with my ex-fiancee was to get her back and I tried all sorts of methods but in the end it was her that felt it was over WAY BEFORE she physically ended it with me. She moved on emotionally a very long time ago, just like your wife has. You just have been trying to guilt her into staying with you. You have been trying to pull on her heartstrings and doing what you think you should do to 'win her back'. However you may succeed in the short-term but in the long-term she will still want out.

 

My goals then turned to self-preservation. To start my life again and although it hurt like hell, I had to do alot of soul searching. I had to realize that I was not going to spend the rest of my life with her. My first love, my best friend, I put so much of myself into her over the years that I didn't even realize it until she was gone. I had to let go, which is still the hardest thing for me to experience in my life. However it was for the best since it allowed me to accept and learn about loss and also teach me the true value of love.

 

There is a reason why this is happening. Let it happen already.

 

Im not grabbing scraps, I am keeping hope.

 

Hope is when the other party still wants to be in the marriage and willing to commit. Hope is having the both of you push past all this strife and wish for a better future with each other. She doesn't. It's almost like she is trying to let you down easy because she sees how much this is hurting you. However this is preventing you to move on with your life.

 

My whole point is that there needs to be a little more hope around this place, there is enough people crushing hope, and calling it good advice.

 

I am not proud to be the bearer of bad news but over the years on here and my own personal experiences we can kind of see the writing on the wall. I won't try to give you 'hope' and give you a false sense of temporary happiness in telling you things that you want to hear. You ask for our advice and we give it. It's upto you to follow it. I just feel that if you don't follow it, you are just hurting yourself more.

 

You see all the signs and say it is over, I can compare the same signs to other who have had success (which you haven't) and say it is far from over. I would rather follow those that have had success, than those that haven't and are bitter.

 

Who else on here or someone that you know is going through something similar with their wife acting the same way where it ends happily ever after together?

 

We know you love her, we know that you would do anything for her, we know you take your vows seriously. The problem is, she doesn't. It takes TWO to make a marriage work. What she is doing is NOT considered trying to make the marriage work. She's using you as a safety net and if you want to live your life that way, that is your choice. Personally I couldn't.

 

Honestly if I thought your marriage would work out, I would tell you. But at this point in time I don't see any signs from her that she is willing to even try. Actions speak louder than words. A hug, a kiss or even a 'I love you' is NOT a sign of her wanting to stay in the marriage.

[madgun68]

I am not proud to be the bearer of bad news but over the years on here and my own personal experiences we can kind of see the writing on the wall. I won't try to give you 'hope' and give you a false sense of temporary happiness in telling you things that you want to hear. You ask for our advice and we give it. It's upto you to follow it. I just feel that if you don't follow it, you are just hurting yourself more.

Ultimately, it's probably best for someone to pick and pull advice as they see fit, and apply it to their situation.

 

Not to sound harsh, but a person really needs to take the source of the advice in to context. Yes, many people here have been through the same thing. Most of them have failed. To be honest, is that the best place or best people to seek advice from? Not for what Confuzd is trying to achieve.

 

I know that quite a few people on here have also studied a lot (through books or other means) and they are a good source of advice. I have also read a few myself. Even then, a lot of it is situational. Not all of it can be applied because no person or relationship is cookie-cutter. What may help save one relationship won't do a darned thing to help another.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone stop giving advice. Sometimes I wonder though if it's geared more towards really helping him achieve what he wants, or more about helping him move on and accepting that there's nothing left to save.

[jmargel]

Ultimately, it's probably best for someone to pick and pull advice as they see fit, and apply it to their situation.

 

Not to sound harsh, but a person really needs to take the source of the advice in to context. Yes, many people here have been through the same thing. Most of them have failed. To be honest, is that the best place or best people to seek advice from? Not for what Confuzd is trying to achieve.

 

Failed? It's not about whether you won or lost your battle trying to get them to come back to the marriage. It's about whether the marriage as a whole is going to work. The point I am trying to stress here is that if one person does not want to commit themselves into making the marriage work, then it won't.

 

It doesnt matter how many counselors you see or books you read. You can't make a person want something. That is what he is trying to do. Trying to make her 'see the light' in his opinion. That is not going to work in the long run. IMO he needs to let her go so she can find out what she wants in her own time. He needs to also move onto greater and better things as well.

[CaliGuy]

Caliguy,

 

Im not sure you are reading my thread or even notice the progress, because you are telling me to do stuff that I have already done.

 

I have read the thread and what you need to understand is what you have "already done" in the past is effecting her current and future opinion of you. The hole the both you dug yourselves into is going to be very hard to dig out of. Perceptions are not changed overnight.

 

I told her I am not waiting around, and I have backed off with all phone calls. I haven't called her in a pretty long time, aside from our most recent talk.

 

You are talking about RECENT changes. The changes she needs to see are going to take a very long time. They must be repetitive and earnest changes. You can't expect her to believe that recent changes in your behavior are permanent. In fact, she has mentioned this to you.

 

You seem to be so sure about stuff, but you are only making assumptions, I see my wifes face every day, and she is not living the high life.

 

You don't see what your wife is doing when she is away from you. You are not 100% sure she is not seeing the man. I may be making assumptions here, but it is quite possible you yourself are making assumptions. Remember, it's not what she SAYS that matters. It what she DOES that truly matters.

 

Could it be possible, that she is regretting her decision, could it be possible that she is a decent human being that realizes she loves her family, could it be possible that she is truly having second thoughts, could it be possible that she is hurting as well, could it be possible that she feels bad for her decision.

 

Anything is possible. But again, actions speak much more clearly than words ever will.

 

In your mind it seems as if you are so stuck on being right that you fail to see any positives.

 

On the contrary, I would like nothing better than for your marriage to work out. However I see you as having tunnel vision. You see only one possible outcome at that's for your wife to come back and everything to go back to normal. The odds are very good that she may in fact NOT come back and even if she did, things would not go back to being the same. It will take a long time for the dust to settle.

 

It's not about being right or wrong here. It's about having a realistic view of the situation and taking ALL possibilities into consideration. Success and failure. Do you have a plan in she in fact decides NOT to work on the marriage? What happens to you and to your son? There are many things you are not considering. You speak quite often of LOGIC in your post. Well, the LOGICAL thing to do here is consider ALL scenarios, wouldn't you agree?

 

You are talking about backing off and no contact at a time when my wife is coming around, being more loving, and talking of reconciliation. That is totally absurd.

 

What I want you to understand is your wife has a perception of you being needy and clingy with her. She has a perception of your mistrust of her, as valid as it may be. If you want your wife's perception of you to change, you have to change as a person. Not for her, but for yourself. Any changes you make in your personality must be self-driven.

 

I understand your stance, but I totally disagree in my situation. There are plenty of people on this board who may benefit from your advice, because it seems as if this is the only advice you ever offer to anyone.

 

My advice is focused on you and your issue. If anyone else benefits, that's great. My focus is helping you resolve your situation. I have no vested interest in the outcome either way but I assure you no one will be happier for you if things work out than me.

 

File for divorce, are you serious???? if there ever was a point where that was an option it is in the past.

 

So if she decides to continue seeing the other man, what's your plan? You'll continue to let her have her cake and eat it to while you suffer? Do you understand where I am coming from here? You need to make sure your ducks are in a row. Hope for the best but DO prepare for the worst.

 

I did take a stance, I did back off, I made it very clear, I gave her space. I don't understand why you insist on telling me to do things I have already done.

 

You have just started giving her a little space. You are a long way away from truly giving her space and backing off.

 

And yes it worked, but you want me to over do it. You over did it in your situation with your woman, I am not going to over do it.

 

I don't want you to overdo it. But the desire to reconcile is coming almost completely from you. In order for any reconciliation to work, she must desire it every bit as much as you. As far as I can tell, she is still moved out and not making any real earnest efforts to reconcile. When she starts suggesting counseling and spends more time with you together, then I would say she is making an effort. Once again, her ACTIONS will tell you how she truly feels. Right now her words are just empty noise.

 

I did it and it obviously has worked, as a matter of fact I am still doing it, I still do not call, although I may start to text her everyonce in a while that is still to be determined

 

At this point, I would make few attempts at contact with her that do not include issues with your son.

 

She came in and gave me another hug this morning, and was very sweet. Maybe I should run to the attorney and start the papers.

 

So one or two scrapes of her attention is enough for you? Never mind the fact that you're still not 100% sure she isn't seeing the other man. You're ready to take one little scrap of her attention, one little sign that she might be changing and think she's ready to reconcile??? Consistency will tell you that she is ready, not one, minor piece of her attention.

 

I'm starting to think that you are the one who is not following the story, Lysne obviously has been following.

 

Confuzd, advice is worth nothing more than the value you place it on. You're being very defensive and I understand but that is not helping your situation. You have a very narrow minded view of your situation which I believe is what is causing your more issues than anything else. You may not like my advice and you are quite to dismiss it.

 

I am really convinced you either are Dr Dobson himself, or you work for him. That's the problem with your advice, there is no bending or compromise. You feel ultimate doom for people who don't follow your advice to the T.

 

Whether you follow my advice or not has no impact on my life. What I want you to understand is that the behavior your wife has shown is addressed quite clearly in Dr. Dobson's book AND in Marriage Builders (which I've mentioned several times now). There is bending and compromise but that's only when the wayward spouse has shown by earnest actions and deeds, that they want to work things out. You really have nothing solid to go on other than one little tid bit here and there. For all you know your wife is keeping you on a string, as a backup plan, in case things don't work out with the OM. You really have to consider that as a possibility.

 

My advice is centered on YOUR best interest. If I didn't care about you as a person I wouldn't waste my time offering my advice. That's something you need to consider. I don't really know you, but I (and many others) have taken a lot of their own time to help you see things from many different angles. Getting upset or being sarcastic is not going to benefit your situation whatsoever.

 

Im willing to bet that if my wife told me she loved me and we made up and where back living together, you would probably still say "show her tough love" "make her pay for her mistakes" "only then will she respect you" "otherwise it will never work"

 

On the contrary, I'd wish you the best.

 

Anyways, I do hope your not getting mad, or are taking offense to anything. I'm sure you don't agree with me but I'm okay with that.

 

I'm neither angry or upset. All I hope to accomplish with my advice is to get you to see this situation from all possible angles.

[CaliGuy]

um Confuzd, CaliGuy said:

 

 

 

He never told you to, read the rest of what he wrote.

 

Quite alot of your comments were not warranted honey, he was only trying to help. And if anyone knows how to give advice in these situations it is him. I understand you are frustrated but just know we are all cheering you along on the sidelines. Hell I have my pom poms at the ready

 

I'm trying to be as patient and as kind as I can with him. I've been in his shoes before and I understand what he's going through to some degree.

 

It just seems to be he's so focused on the end goal that he can't really see the forest through the trees.

 

Ultimately the goal is to repair his marriage and I am all for that, but he also needs to realize that in the end, that may not happen.

 

He has to put his foot down and really take control of HIS life. He has ZERO control over what his wife does. The sooner he understands that and comes to grip with it, the sooner he can start to put his life back together.

[confuzd]

Not calling for a couple of days is not giving space. Giving space is not calling or contacting for months and allowing yourself to unglue your dependency from her. It's when you can talk to her or give her a hug without hoping or expecting any sort of rekindling of your past love for each other. It's able to look at her as a person not as your wife.

 

Months huh, is that a rule. space is whatever works, I quit calling for over a week now and my wife calls me more than ever and has really started to come around, more on that later. At this point I do not get overly excited, I remain calm and let things progress naturally.

 

However you may succeed in the short-term but in the long-term she will still want out.

you seem so certain as if no one ever reconciles in a marriage

 

My goals then turned to self-preservation. To start my life again and although it hurt like hell, I had to do alot of soul searching. I had to realize that I was not going to spend the rest of my life with her. My first love, my best friend, I put so much of myself into her over the years that I didn't even realize it until she was gone. I had to let go, which is still the hardest thing for me to experience in my life. However it was for the best since it allowed me to accept and learn about loss and also teach me the true value of love.

okay where was the middle ground, it seems as if you went from desparate directly to F$%# this SH*& I'm through, at what point did you step back and say let me try something different, yet keep my goal the same which is to regain my love.

 

Hope is when the other party still wants to be in the marriage and willing to commit.

really I thought hope was remaining positive in the face of adversity and despair, being hopeful when there is no hope in sight. Based on your definition of hope, there would really not be any need for hope, because we would be back together already.

 

I am not proud to be the bearer of bad news but over the years on here and my own personal experiences we can kind of see the writing on the wall.

really, well the writing is not clear and takes a really keen eye, you know at times a fresh eye can find things that an older, even wiser eye may miss.

 

I won't try to give you 'hope' and give you a false sense of temporary happiness in telling you things that you want to hear.

thats for sure

 

 

Who else on here or someone that you know is going through something similar with their wife acting the same way where it ends happily ever after together?

tons, but if you remain patient you will witness it right here.

 

Honestly if I thought your marriage would work out, I would tell you. But at this point in time I don't see any signs from her that she is willing to even try. Actions speak louder than words. A hug, a kiss or even a 'I love you' is NOT a sign of her wanting to stay in the marriage.

really, they seem like signs to me, very early signs but signs nonetheless. I have alot of work to do, and have to remain patient and yes live my life as I have been doing, but the signs are definitely there.

[confuzd]

Ultimately, it's probably best for someone to pick and pull advice as they see fit, and apply it to their situation.

 

Not to sound harsh, but a person really needs to take the source of the advice in to context. Yes, many people here have been through the same thing. Most of them have failed. To be honest, is that the best place or best people to seek advice from? Not for what Confuzd is trying to achieve.

 

I know that quite a few people on here have also studied a lot (through books or other means) and they are a good source of advice. I have also read a few myself. Even then, a lot of it is situational. Not all of it can be applied because no person or relationship is cookie-cutter. What may help save one relationship won't do a darned thing to help another.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone stop giving advice. Sometimes I wonder though if it's geared more towards really helping him achieve what he wants, or more about helping him move on and accepting that there's nothing left to save.

 

I wonder myself sometimes madgun

[whichwayisup]

Could it be possible, that she is regretting her decision, could it be possible that she is a decent human being that realizes she loves her family, could it be possible that she is truly having second thoughts, could it be possible that she is hurting as well, could it be possible that she feels bad for her decision.

 

Until she starts to feel alone, leftout, suffering the consquences of her choices - Realizing what life WILL be like without you in it, the family all together under the same roof, I wouldn't do or say anything. This process (that is IF she wakes up) takes a while. If you have the time and want to see what happens, then let her actions show you...

 

She may still be in contact with the OM, maybe not like before, but he IS still around...Either way, it sounds like you're handling things well because of your child.

[Cobra_X30]

I wonder myself sometimes madgun

 

Hey Confuzd,

 

I know you feel under attack right now, but I honestly think that these guys really do have your best interests at heart!

 

I dont agree with them trying to beat what they see as reality into your head... but they really do come from a place of empathy and compassion.

 

It took me some time, but I see that you made mistakes... and you want desperately to make amends. I appreciate that and the fact that your willing to take such a gamble on your wife.

 

Your gambling on love... Your down to your shoes, but your going all in. I completely respect that. The greater the risk... the greater the reward.

 

I think your doing the right thing by hanging back, and trying to give her space... she needs to be able to see you change... it may take some time to be believeable.

 

How long do you plan on giving space? Do you have any plans of making a move in the end?

[CaliGuy]

Interesting article I just found on Yahoo that would definitely apply to your situation, Confuzd.

 

http://health.yahoo.com/experts/sexualhealing/18851/why-do-people-cheat

[confuzd]

I have read the thread and what you need to understand is what you have "already done" in the past is effecting her current and future opinion of you. The hole the both you dug yourselves into is going to be very hard to dig out of. Perceptions are not changed overnight.

I agree, and I don't expect them to be. I do know this will take time and I have along way to go.

 

 

You are talking about RECENT changes. The changes she needs to see are going to take a very long time. They must be repetitive and earnest changes. You can't expect her to believe that recent changes in your behavior are permanent. In fact, she has mentioned this to you.

I agree 100% and yes she has mentioned this

 

 

You don't see what your wife is doing when she is away from you. You are not 100% sure she is not seeing the man. I may be making assumptions here, but it is quite possible you yourself are making assumptions. Remember, it's not what she SAYS that matters. It what she DOES that truly matters.

your right I don't know about another man, and it does me no good to think about it. This is not about another man anyways.

 

 

Anything is possible. But again, actions speak much more clearly than words ever will.

Yes I agree, but I think that unsolicited hugs, sweet phonecalls, and such are pretty good signs that something is going on, and are definitely actions

 

 

On the contrary, I would like nothing better than for your marriage to work out. However I see you as having tunnel vision. You see only one possible outcome at that's for your wife to come back and everything to go back to normal. The odds are very good that she may in fact NOT come back and even if she did, things would not go back to being the same. It will take a long time for the dust to settle.

your right I may have tunnel vision, okay I do have tunnel vision. I call it laser focus. It has helped me all my life to achieve success and obtain goals. if you allow 1% of doubt then you are out. The odds are also very good that we will reconcile. I like to think the glass is half full. I also don't want things to go back to normal, when we do reconcile it will be a new beginning, the old me is gone for good.

 

It's not about being right or wrong here. It's about having a realistic view of the situation and taking ALL possibilities into consideration. Success and failure. Do you have a plan in she in fact decides NOT to work on the marriage? What happens to you and to your son? There are many things you are not considering. You speak quite often of LOGIC in your post. Well, the LOGICAL thing to do here is consider ALL scenarios, wouldn't you agree?

of course I have considered it, but it is not productive for me to focus on it. It has been considered and for now that is all the attention it deserves.

 

 

What I want you to understand is your wife has a perception of you being needy and clingy with her. She has a perception of your mistrust of her, as valid as it may be. If you want your wife's perception of you to change, you have to change as a person. Not for her, but for yourself. Any changes you make in your personality must be self-driven.

They are, I guess I haven't shown it in my posts, I come here to rant and rave but in front of her I don't do this. Yes we all have our slip ups but I pick myself up and get back on track. Thats what this board is for, so you can yell, scream, kick and cry, and hopefully get support along the way, so that you don't do this in front of your spouse

 

 

My advice is focused on you and your issue. If anyone else benefits, that's great. My focus is helping you resolve your situation. I have no vested interest in the outcome either way but I assure you no one will be happier for you if things work out than me.

Well I appreciate it.

 

 

So if she decides to continue seeing the other man, what's your plan? You'll continue to let her have her cake and eat it to while you suffer? Do you understand where I am coming from here? You need to make sure your ducks are in a row. Hope for the best but DO prepare for the worst.

okay enough of the other man, why keep bringing it up, it is not healthy, If it is going on I can't stop it anyways so it is a waste of my energy to focus on it.

 

 

You have just started giving her a little space. You are a long way away from truly giving her space and backing off.

If space is what she wants space is what she gets. Just lovingly backing off yet being there for her as a friend. It has worked thus far and I will continue with this philosophy of space.

 

I don't want you to overdo it. But the desire to reconcile is coming almost completely from you.

of course she is the one who left

 

In order for any reconciliation to work, she must desire it every bit as much as you.

that takes time,many spouses have left with no intention of ever reconciling, but in the end have a change of heart

 

As far as I can tell, she is still moved out and not making any real earnest efforts to reconcile.

baby steps. it will all come in due time

 

When she starts suggesting counseling and spends more time with you together, then I would say she is making an effort. Once again, her ACTIONS will tell you how she truly feels. Right now her words are just empty noise.

she is not really talking much, I am actually going off of her actions at this point. No she hasn't come out and said lets get back together, but I don't expect her too. from all my research and study, these are all signs leading up to that though.

 

 

At this point, I would make few attempts at contact with her that do not include issues with your son.

which I have, but the more she contacts me the more I will reward the good behavior.

 

 

So one or two scrapes of her attention is enough for you? Never mind the fact that you're still not 100% sure she isn't seeing the other man. You're ready to take one little scrap of her attention, one little sign that she might be changing and think she's ready to reconcile??? Consistency will tell you that she is ready, not one, minor piece of her attention.

there we go with the other man again, no I am watching closely and observing but it has been a little more than just one scrap.

 

 

Confuzd, advice is worth nothing more than the value you place it on. You're being very defensive and I understand but that is not helping your situation. You have a very narrow minded view of your situation which I believe is what is causing your more issues than anything else. You may not like my advice and you are quite to dismiss it.

Im sorry if you think I am defensive, but have you ever dreamt of anything in your life, in the entrepreunerial world we call them dream stealers. And I get very defensive if any one tries to steal my dreams or the dreams of anyone else. Why do it, if you really care. If your son wanted to be the president, or an NBA star, would you tell him it won't happen and crush his dreams. Every success begins with a dream, and laser focus. From donald trump, to michael jordan. It does nobody any good to focus on what if it doesn't work, I am a pretty responsible person and will be just fine if the negative does happen, so It does me no good to focus on it.

 

 

Whether you follow my advice or not has no impact on my life. What I want you to understand is that the behavior your wife has shown is addressed quite clearly in Dr. Dobson's book AND in Marriage Builders (which I've mentioned several times now). There is bending and compromise but that's only when the wayward spouse has shown by earnest actions and deeds, that they want to work things out. You really have nothing solid to go on other than one little tid bit here and there.

well you have to be happy for the small successes, because thats where it starts, if you overlook them and lose hope you may quit before the big signs are there, this rings true for almost everything in life. Many people quit right on the bring of success, because they didn't notice the little signs.

 

For all you know your wife is keeping you on a string, as a backup plan, in case things don't work out with the OM. You really have to consider that as a possibility.

Why, for all you know she may not be.

 

My advice is centered on YOUR best interest. If I didn't care about you as a person I wouldn't waste my time offering my advice. That's something you need to consider. I don't really know you, but I (and many others) have taken a lot of their own time to help you see things from many different angles. Getting upset or being sarcastic is not going to benefit your situation whatsoever.

Im not upset, maybe a little bothered, and I apologize for any sarcasm. I hope you can understand that you telling me to consider the other man, and to realize that there is a good chance my marriage is over doesn't benefit my situation either.

 

respectfully,

confuzd

[confuzd]

Hey Confuzd,

 

I know you feel under attack right now, but I honestly think that these guys really do have your best interests at heart!

 

I hope so, I thought for a moment that alot of the comments that are made on these board actually may scare people in need of help away from posting their stories here in fear that their dreams will be crushed, i hope that is not the environment that has been created here

 

I dont agree with them trying to beat what they see as reality into your head... but they really do come from a place of empathy and compassion.

I agree, reality is what we perceive it to be, this could go into a long discussion of psychology but, everyone has their own reality.

 

How long do you plan on giving space? Do you have any plans of making a move in the end?

as long as I can, that is the only answer I can give you, Im not sure what move your talking about.

[jmargel]

Months huh, is that a rule. space is whatever works, I quit calling for over a week now and my wife calls me more than ever and has really started to come around, more on that later. At this point I do not get overly excited, I remain calm and let things progress naturally.

 

you seem so certain as if no one ever reconciles in a marriage

 

Maybe a week has worked for you but it hasn't worked for her. So what that she calls. What does that mean? Do you think that means she wants back into the marriage? I believe you are putting more into those sorts of things then what they really are.

 

I was there myself when my ex would call I would just be ecstatic. I would analyze every word she said to the point that I would end up making up my own definition of what she meant. It was because that is what I wanted to see and not face the realization that it was over.

 

You are not understanding the definition of space. It's not about time or distance. It's about removing your dependency on her. You are basing your own self-worth on her. That's why you refuse to give up. If you give up on her, you are giving up on yourself.

 

okay where was the middle ground, it seems as if you went from desparate directly to F$%# this SH*& I'm through, at what point did you step back and say let me try something different, yet keep my goal the same which is to regain my love.

 

It didn't happen in all of one day, but over the course of the year I just became too emotionally exhausted in dealing with it all. I came to my own conclusion that it wasn't going to work no matter what I did because in the end it was really all up to her. She didn't want me, she didn't love me anymore she made the decision. I had to accept that, embrace it, deal with it, then move on from it. Most importantly though, I had to learn from it.

 

 

 

really I thought hope was remaining positive in the face of adversity and despair, being hopeful when there is no hope in sight. Based on your definition of hope, there would really not be any need for hope, because we would be back together already.

 

There's hope with an expectancy that things will change because you see them changing. We don't see this change in your wife. What has she really done for you to see this change? If it wans't for you in finding her cell phone and playing detective she would still be ****ing this guy. For all you know she still may. You are living on assumptions that she is not doing you wrong still, but really.. is that a way to live? Why are you settling for the scraps she throws to you now and then?

 

You are twisting the little things she is doing and trying to make them fit into your own fantasy that things are getting better. THEY ARE NOT. Yes we are not living your life but from your posts she has not told you she wants back in the marriage, she has not gone to marriage counseling, she has not devoted her heart to you again.

 

 

really, they seem like signs to me, very early signs but signs nonetheless. I have alot of work to do, and have to remain patient and yes live my life as I have been doing, but the signs are definitely there.

 

Signs? Holy **** man. How much worse could it have gotten? Of course things are now better than before because you are not worrying so much about where the **** she's been and who she's been sleeping with. However that worry is now turned into whether she still wants you and you are willing to compromise your own pride, dignity and own self-worth for this. That is NOT attractive and NOT attactive to her. You are showing NO confidence, something that women ADORE.

 

You keep letting her drag you through the mud, and honestly it's disgusting. I will continue to be harsh with you only because I want you to get resolution in this matter. Continue to coddle her while she still pulls your strings to see you dance like a puppet. She'll eventually tell her new man how much of a whipping boy you were.

 

Tough love is saying 'Screw you, Im moving on with my life and I don't need to be treated like this'. 'I refuse to be played like a fool and refuse to sit here while you twiddle your thumbs on deciding what to do'. Life is too short, stop wasting time on someone who's still being very immature and treating you like an option.