Cleavage, push up bras, when is it to much?

[InLimbo2]

How incredibly pompous! Our clothing choices are indicative of our maturity? God lord - for all you know this woman is a doctor, a teacher, a cancer researcher - but YOU decide she's immature and deserves no respect because she showcases her bust?

 

A tweeny in heat? Really? Was she trying to get some action going? You are right up there with the poster that said if she's assaulted she asked for it. Read my lips - just because a woman has cleavage does NOT mean her legs are open for business with anyone that comes along.

 

You are so incredibly shallow on top of pompous.

 

 

Yes. When she acts like a grown-up, she'll deserve the respect. When she acts like a tweeny in heat, well, she deserves equal treatment.

 

There's a time and a place for different forms of attire. The male equivalent of this would be to wear tight white pants to work. Lest we forget, don't forget the rolled up sock...

[Trialbyfire]

How incredibly pompous! Our clothing choices are indicative of our maturity? God lord - for all you know this woman is a doctor, a teacher, a cancer researcher - but YOU decide she's immature and deserves no respect because she showcases her bust?

 

A tweeny in heat? Really? Was she trying to get some action going? You are right up there with the poster that said if she's assaulted she asked for it. Read my lips - just because a woman has cleavage does NOT mean her legs are open for business with anyone that comes along.

 

You are so incredibly shallow on top of pompous.

I'll be patient with you and reword the situation. There's a woman in her forties who requires constant male external validation, including validation of his caring through jealousy. She is aware that her SO has issues with her overt sexuality but negates his feelings and continues to dress inappropriately in order to dragnet for male attention.

 

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

[JamesM]

Men look at breasts - period - it's DNA encoded. A woman can be an A cup - totally covered -and if their nipples are hard, men will stare. Should all women who have a man only be allowed to wear baggy loose clothing so that men don't stare? To be honest - in that case, most men will say "self, what what she's got under that big ole shirt".

 

So - showing breasts is a signal that you're available for sex? Really? Try that on a chick in a bar - walk up and grab her chest and toss her down - since she gave you that signal right? Let me know how that works for ya. Women show their breasts when they breastfeed infants - you saying that they are lookin for some action and that's why they do that? Get a grip - cleavage does not = slut.

 

Hate to tell ya - put the same woman - nice chest - in a turtleneck - that covers her whole bust - and the guys will stare still.

 

Okay, we seem to not totally understand women's clothing here. Yes, a turtleneck attracts looks because it shows the form. And yes, nipples attract attention when hard. But come on, you are telling me that a man stares at these kind of clothes AS MUCH as bare breasts? For me and most men I have seen, no. When the breasts are hanging out with little of them covered, our eyes do look more with the thoughts of touching them. What horrible men we are...but the funny thing is...women know this. So why do women flaunt their breasts with a lot of cleavage showing? For who?

 

When I say that a woman appears available, this does not mean a man will walk up and grab the boobs...give me a break, you know better. But when a man stares at what is being shown, then yes, he feels that she is showing that "Hey, buddy, take a look...what do you think?" When a woman shows just a little cleavage, this appears sexy and maybe even classy but it does not give the same impression as to when they are hanging out. And yes, my wife is more disgusted by women who dress this way so as to degrade all women.

 

Did you actually just say that if a woman is sexually attacked that her clothing choices are to blamed and she was asking for it? Tell me you didn't just say that - really - please.

 

I am going to say that yes, a woman's clothing can give the wrong impression, and if she does not realize that, then she DOES need to get some lessons in the male mind. Do I say this is good? No. Do I say that the woman is then the cause of the attack? No. But to say that the woman takes no responsibility for her clothing is just plain ignorant. Send a woman in a bikini on a dark night down a deserted street...do you think she is just as safe as the woman who is walking fully clothed? I think not. To say that the woman should be blamed for her attack...no. But to say that women need not be conscious of WHAT they wear is also wrong and irresponsible.

 

The question remains...why does she show so much cleavage that her BF is uncomfortable with the types of stares she receives. I have never felt that my wife or even any GF dressed in that way. Never have I been with a woman who has the most showing in a room. And it is rare that I see a woman in any situation...who is with her man...show so much that she is disrespecting her man.

 

Ask any man who sees a woman who is breastfeeding...is sex on HIS mind? I don't think so. Interestingly enough, we men do see a difference.

 

And I got a grip...cleavage shown quietly does not equal a slut, but cleavage flaunted in my face defiantly tells me that "this woman wants you to look."

[InLimbo2]

I'll be patient and reword the situation. There's a poster that doesn't know the woman the thread is about, but continues to project her own assumptions, biases, and judgments on this stranger. And continues to espouse that the woman in question has all sort of unhealthy psychological traits and needs because of her clothing choices. Tell me - could you tell that Ted Bundy was a sexual psychopath by the type of pants he wore?

 

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

 

 

I'll be patient with you and reword the situation. There's a woman in her forties who requires constant male external validation, including validation of his caring through jealousy. She is aware that her SO has issues with her overt sexuality but negates his feelings and continues to dress inappropriately in order to dragnet for male attention.

 

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

[Trialbyfire]

I'll be patient and reword the situation. There's a poster that doesn't know the woman the thread is about, but continues to project her own assumptions, biases, and judgments on this stranger. And continues to espouse that the woman in question has all sort of unhealthy psychological traits and needs because of her clothing choices. Tell me - could you tell that Ted Bundy was a sexual psychopath by the type of pants he wore?

 

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

And there's a poster in question who appears to believe that she knows a woman in a thread where the woman hasn't even posted, only the man who has issues and is expressing his version of the issues. The poster in question appears to be projecting her own insecurities into this thread.

 

Remember, age is but a number so there's no need to have insecurities about it...

 

It's been a pleasure, elder one...

[InLimbo2]

-Okay, we seem to not totally understand women's clothing here. Yes, a turtleneck attracts looks because it shows the form. And yes, nipples attract attention when hard. But come on, you are telling me that a man stares at these kind of clothes AS MUCH as bare breasts?-

 

No, otherwise men wouldn't watch porno So hard nipples make them look, low cut makes them look, turtlenecks make them look, sweaters make them look, pretty much everything makes them look. Should we all be wearing burquas to keep them from looking?

 

-For me and most men I have seen, no. When the breasts are hanging out with little of them covered, our eyes do look more with the thoughts of touching them. -

 

And the men I've known - and I'm 45 years old with tons of male friends - they think bout touching the ones under the turtleneck too

 

-What horrible men we are...but the funny thing is...women know this. So why do women flaunt their breasts with a lot of cleavage showing? For who?-

 

How bout for HER? I have a friend who is an A cup - she's getting implants in a few weeks - personally, I think it's nuts to do surgery and put foreign stuff in her body. She's been married 20 years, happily - she's just never been happy with her bust. She's doing it for HER. Not everything women do is for men. Will she showcase them - absolutely. You use 'flaunt' with a negative connotation, because you see this woman in a negative light - that's your bias. For my friend - she will finally look like a woman in her own eyes - not a 10 year old.

 

-When I say that a woman appears available, this does not mean a man will walk up and grab the boobs...give me a break, you know better. But when a man stares at what is being shown, then yes, he feels that she is showing that "Hey, buddy, take a look...what do you think?" -

 

Key words "he feels that she is..." That's on him - a stranger can't possibly kinow what's in the woman's mind or why she does what she does - he reacts from his own point of view - a male point of view.

 

-When a woman shows just a little cleavage, this appears sexy and maybe even classy but it does not give the same impression as to when they are hanging out. -

 

Well, see - that's your opinion - not that you aren't entitled to it. I'm trying to show you that not everyone has that opinion. I have a more liberal opinion on it than you, and in many countries of the world a lil cleavage (or ankle for that matter) would get a woman stoned to death. The point is - not everyone has your viewpoint, and it's not right to put that judgement on every woman in the world. Especially one where the poster said she's not dressin whorish and is letting everyone know they are together.

 

-And yes, my wife is more disgusted by women who dress this way so as to degrade all women.-

 

To be honest - I find women that wail about how women degrade all women to be ... hmm...can't even find the word. Nobody, not even a whole gender, defines me - only *I* define me. To say that any 1 person degrades an entire gender is an excuse and cover for their discomfort with another's behavior.

 

-I am going to say that yes, a woman's clothing can give the wrong impression, and if she does not realize that, then she DOES need to get some lessons in the male mind. Do I say this is good? No. -

 

Ok, so even if a guy gets the wrong impression - so what? Sexual assault is based in rage, power, and control - not in sex. A man sick enough to assault a woman is just sick - it has nothing to do with the woman - what's she's wearing, what she did - nothing. Otherwise - are you telling me all the 85 year old grandma rape victims gave their attackers the wrong impression with their clothing? How bout the 12yo's grabbed off the bus stop and dragged into the bushes? Oh -and how bout the male victims - did their baggy jeans and hoodies give the wrong impression?

 

-Do I say that the woman is then the cause of the attack? No. But to say that the woman takes no responsibility for her clothing is just plain ignorant. Send a woman in a bikini on a dark night down a deserted street...do you think she is just as safe as the woman who is walking fully clothed?-

 

You tossed in another variable here besides clothing. I don't think a woman in a bikini, in a full winter coat, or an 85yo grandma in her walker is safe walking on a deserted street on a dark night.

 

-I think not. To say that the woman should be blamed for her attack...no. But to say that women need not be conscious of WHAT they wear is also wrong and irresponsible.-

 

That they need to be concious that it may draw attention from men - yes? that that attention may be unwelcome - yes? that they have to know how to make sure that the guy gets that NO means NO - yes? And that if THEY find it that uncomfortable to them then they need to alter their dress - and if it doesn't disrupt their evening or make them uncomfy, that's their choice. Does that mean they are to be held responsible for the actions of sexual predators and deviants - NO!

 

-The question remains...why does she show so much cleavage that her BF is uncomfortable with the types of stares she receives. -

 

Probably because she's a grown independent woman who believes her clothing choices are her own - ESPECIALLY after a 19yr marriage where she bowed to the wishes of her spouse on this subject.

 

-I have never felt that my wife or even any GF dressed in that way. Never have I been with a woman who has the most showing in a room. And it is rare that I see a woman in any situation...who is with her man...show so much that she is disrespecting her man. -

 

It's YOUR perspective that she's disrespecting her man. MANY men have no problem with this - they either don't care - or they take pride in the fact that all these men want his woman, and can't have her - only he can.

 

-Ask any man who sees a woman who is breastfeeding...is sex on HIS mind? I don't think so. Interestingly enough, we men do see a difference. -

 

Actually - for some of them - it is - all kinda kinks out there. However, does that mean the mom shouldn't breastfeed cuz some guy that is into pregnant or lactating women might get ideas?

 

-And I got a grip...cleavage shown quietly does not equal a slut, but cleavage flaunted in my face defiantly tells me that "this woman wants you to look.-

 

That's your male arrogance talking - and that's not meant as a cut - it's part of the male encoding. Some are doin it for that reason, sure. Some are just dressing how they think they look best. It's not always all about you (men) ya know.

[InLimbo2]

That was hard to follow Then again, it's late and it's been a long day.

 

I don't believe I know the woman the post is about, I'm giving a very possible alternative to the psycho babble you toss out as fact That's what these forums are about - differing opinions and all. And I just couldn't let it pass you telling this guy so authoritatively all these psych issues his girl supposedly has -feeding into the insecurities and issues he already has - and telling him to play games and jerk her around - without providing some alternative thoughts and ideas.

 

I'm projecting insecurities? Where'd ya get that one? Cuz I don't subscribe to your view of this woman?

 

My age? I'm 45 and loving it! I'm not insecure about my age at all - I'm happier, healthier, and more secure than I ever have been in the prior 44 years.

 

It's been a pleasure - a good involved discussion is always a good thing - but even more importantly, the original poster might just look through posters telling him this woman who obviously loves him is a flake and a slut and see that there might be other reasons - ones that have nothing to do with him - or strangers in a bar. It might actually be - *GASP* - about HER.

 

 

And there's a poster in question who appears to believe that she knows a woman in a thread where the woman hasn't even posted, only the man who has issues and is expressing his version of the issues. The poster in question appears to be projecting her own insecurities into this thread.

 

Remember, age is but a number so there's no need to have insecurities about it...

 

It's been a pleasure, elder one...

[norajane]

A woman who goes out with her tits hanging out wants the attention, and she wants the attention on her tits, and that's exactly what she gets.

 

The guys staring are staring at what's offered. It shouldn't be the least bit surprising that they do - and I'm sure that's her intent. It also shouldn't be the least bit surprising that a lot of people think it's a sleazy, trashy ploy to get sexual attention.

 

As her bf, it's also not the least bit surprising that you wouldn't appreciate all the male attention focused on her overtly sexual display. As your gf, she's being a bit insensitive to your feelings and playing the "I am woman, hear me roar" card to make you feel like you're being controlling when it's obvious she wants the sexual attention and it makes her feel good to get it and she just won't admit it.

 

As ruby_gloom and a couple of others have said, you have to decide if this is the kind of woman you want to be with. If you do, then I'd say find a sense of humor about it and laugh at her "quirk". Or feel sorry for her for thinking her tits are her best asset and she'd be nothing if she didn't display them all the time.

 

As for your feelings about the guys staring, you can't stop them from doing so, you can't stop her from showing herself, so the only thing you can change is your reaction. Feel confident knowing that they may stare and drool in their beer, but you are the one taking her home and you are the only one who will get to actually play with them.

 

I'd hope she has more assets than that, but you're the only one who can determine whether those assets outweigh her determination to be the center of lusty male attention.

[squeak]

I said: Another thing that also stands out is that it is not in Eddo's best interest to have to singlehandedly defend his GF's honor if comments/actions are taken by randy onlookers. It is putting you in a awkward / dangerous position from that table of guys that upset you, in the future too.

 

INLIMBO2 replied : Did you actually just say that if a woman is sexually attacked that her clothing choices are to blamed and she was asking for it? Tell me you didn't just say that - really - please.

 

 

WOAH..step away from the keyboard Inlimbo2, step away...are you okay there? 10 posts??

 

Good lord-can you for the love of Jove PLEASE STOP quoting me as saying anything about deserving violence? Just stop! Take a deep breath.

 

Re-wording and clarification: If guys act up around his GF, Eddo may feel compelled to exchange some words with them, and get into a fight.

 

Seriously, I'm not even going to entertain what you are trying to put in my mouth. Stop misquoting me over and over!!

 

That's your male arrogance talking - and that's not meant as a cut - it's part of the male encoding. Some are doin it for that reason, sure. Some are just dressing how they think they look best. It's not always all about you (men) ya know.

 

YES IT IS!! YES it is! It is about power and admiration from the opposite sex. Don't piss on me and tell me it's rainwater, 'kay?

[InLimbo2]

Slow night on TV

 

Oh you weren't the only poster that said that her clothing choices put her in danger - there was at least one other. I'd have to go back and find exactly what you said. But thanks for the clarification - either way - it's wrong to blame the woman's clothing for anything that any stranger in a bar does - period.

 

Damn - have you NEVER seen a group of women - JUST women - and some of them have cleavage showing? I have! There's a girl at my office that shows cleavage, and quite a bit - and she dresses like that no matter where she goes - out with her husband, out with females, female only gatherings, work, family gatherings, everywhere. Just like the poster said his girl does. It's not always about men.

 

 

 

WOAH..step away from the keyboard Inlimbo2, step away...are you okay there? 10 posts??

 

Good lord-can you for the love of Jove PLEASE STOP quoting me as saying anything about deserving violence? Just stop! Take a deep breath.

 

Re-wording and clarification: If guys act up around his GF, Eddo may feel compelled to exchange some words with them, and get into a fight.

 

Seriously, I'm not even going to entertain what you are trying to put in my mouth. Stop misquoting me!!

 

 

 

YES IT IS!! YES it is! It is about power and admiration from the opposite sex.

[JamesM]

 

That's your male arrogance talking - and that's not meant as a cut - it's part of the male encoding. Some are doin it for that reason, sure. Some are just dressing how they think they look best. It's not always all about you (men) ya know.

 

Well, then I will let the women talk to you. It seems that many have the same opinion. My male arrogance is offensive to you. But I think we are talking about men who look at women's breasts, and my male opinion probably applies here.

 

But then your female superiority in this matter says that women should be able to show as much breast as they would like, and men should not be affected by the sight of them. This is not reality.

 

Not all sexual attacks are driven by violence and power. There are many that begin as the result of simply sex. And as you in your later years do know by now, a man HAS to be turned on physically to be able to sexually attack a person.

 

Now you are the one who is bringing in straw man arguments. I simply said that how a woman dresses while walking down the street at night WILL make a difference as to how safe she is. Children being nabbed at school bus stops is not even relevant to anything being discussed here. Some men even like animals, but how does that apply?

 

Men are "encoded?" and women are not? Many, many men I know are simply offended by women who dress that way. I suppose if they allowed themselves to be turned on, it is easily done. Many of us will look away or even nod at the man as a gesture of respect to him. And yes, I see many men who do that as well. Not all are simply drooling dogs.

 

Men must take responsibility for their action as women must also take responsibility for their actions. A woman who dresses in a way that is disrespectful to the man she supposedly loves shows that she feels that his love is less important to her than the opinions of those who she is dressing for. Nobody simply dresses for themselves. Everybody dresses for someone else. Many women dress for other women...or so I have been told.

 

And as for my wife feeling that women who dress like that are whatever....so she is not allowed to have an opinion that disagrees, either?

 

Any sentences used for quotation must be quoted in whole and not in part, please.

[squeak]

the original poster might just look through posters telling him this woman who obviously loves him is a flake and a slut and see that there might be other reasons - ones that have nothing to do with him - or strangers in a bar. It might actually be - *GASP* - about HER.

 

And that..ladies and gentlemen..is exactly the point of contention.

 

You say tomato, I say tomatoe, but maybe---just maybe--this is ALL a little bit too much about HER to leave room for his concerns.

 

I don't want to push anyone one way or the other, different views are welcome, but when 2 enter a relationship, I think this illustrates what happens when one person's "needs" outweighs the good of the whole.

 

New society mantra: it's all about ME ME ME!! Good riddance.

[squeak]

Slow night on TV

 

But thanks for the clarification - either way - it's wrong to blame the woman's clothing for anything that any stranger in a bar does - period.

 

 

It's cool Inlimbo2

 

PS--Side note: It is also nice to hear you feel secure and happy with where you are/age , too many women don't feel that way and it makes me sad.

 

Nice to see positive examples.

[JamesM]

Slow night on TV

 

Oh you weren't the only poster that said that her clothing choices put her in danger - there was at least one other. I'd have to go back and find exactly what you said. But thanks for the clarification - either way - it's wrong to blame the woman's clothing for anything that any stranger in a bar does - period.

 

Damn - have you NEVER seen a group of women - JUST women - and some of them have cleavage showing? I have! There's a girl at my office that shows cleavage, and quite a bit - and she dresses like that no matter where she goes - out with her husband, out with females, female only gatherings, work, family gatherings, everywhere. Just like the poster said his girl does. It's not always about men.

 

At this time of the night, it always is. There is no better place than to be on LS.

 

I disagree. We all do things that cause reactions. And we all are responsible for those actions. I will use an example off topic. When a car suddenly stops in front of you at the stoplight, and you hit the rear end, you will get the ticket...yet you are only reacting. Is it all your fault? No, but you should have been prepared for all possible events while driving. Who is more at fault? The person who pulled out or the person who received the ticket? When someone dresses a certain way and it causes a reaction, is he or she not responsible for ANY reactions?

 

And as I sit here, my neighbors are grilling or having some fire in their backyard, and I smell the smoke in my house. Is it simply my problem that the smoke may cause me to have asthma (no, it won't but let's suppose for the sake of argument), or do they bear some responsibility for their fellow neighbor. Of course, in this case, I don't think they legally can have that fire in this town, but that is another case.

 

I will now stray from the topic...again. If I wear a shirt to to the workplace which has a picture of a naked woman on it, and it offends the women there, am I responsible for my actions? If I wear a shirt that is open to my belly button and it offends the other workers there, is this my fault that they react this way? Why am I doing it?

 

So we have it here. So, she does it not only for men. So she does it in front of women as well. The question is why. And if a woman who is with others who are offended by her dress, is she not responsible for her dress in any way? Can she wear what she likes wherever..and whoever feels as they do, well, that is their problem?

 

No, we all take responsibility for our choices and actions. And we all accept the consequences.

[InLimbo2]

-Well, then I will let the women talk to you. It seems that many have the same opinion.-

 

Some do, some don't. Really doesn't matter to me if the posters are male or female, only what they have to say.

 

-My male arrogance is offensive to you.-

 

Not at all! I just recognize the inherent differences between men and women.

 

-But I think we are talking about men who look at women's breasts, and my -male opinion probably applies here.-

 

Yes, but we agree on men looking at women's breasts we just don't agree on the motivation and mindset of all women showing cleavage

 

-But then your female superiority in this matter says that women should be able to show as much breast as they would like, and men should not be affected by the sight of them. This is not reality.-

 

Where'd ya get a silly idea like that? Where did I ever say men shouldn't look, be affected, or even want to touch? I only said men are responsible for their own behavior - and how far they take their behavior. And I never said I was superior - only that I offer some alternatives based on being a woman, and having a lotta life experiences.

 

-Not all sexual attacks are driven by violence and power. There are many that begin as the result of simply sex. And as you in your later years do know by now, a man HAS to be turned on physically to be able to sexually attack a person.-

 

You need to do some research, you are dead wrong. It's all about violence and power. Female sexual predators will rape with an instrument, as will women in prisons, as will men in prison, as will men who can't get an erection - yes, it happens quite a bit that men rape with objects. And altho there are some really out there kinks - more men rape old women outta rage than men who have a grandma fetish. Believe me, I come from a cop family and my sister was a prosecutor for some time - and the experts are in agreement - it's not about sex - it's about power, control, humiliation.

 

-Now you are the one who is bringing in straw man arguments. I simply said that how a woman dresses while walking down the street at night WILL make a difference as to how safe she is. Children being nabbed at school bus stops is not even relevant to anything being discussed here. Some men even like animals, but how does that apply?-

 

It applies because rape and sexual assault are not about lust gone wild - see above - it's about power and rage.

 

-Men are "encoded?" and women are not? -

 

Lord no, we are definately encoded too!

 

-Many, many men I know are simply offended by women who dress that way. I suppose if they allowed themselves to be turned on, it is easily done. Many of us will look away or even nod at the man as a gesture of respect to him. And yes, I see many men who do that as well. Not all are simply drooling dogs.-

 

Yes, plenty of men will look away. We were discussing the drooling dogs at the next table were we not? And your statement just supports my argument that the men's behavior is on THEM - not the woman's clothes.

 

-Men must take responsibility for their action as women must also take responsibility for their actions. A woman who dresses in a way that is disrespectful to the man she supposedly loves shows that she feels that his love is less important to her than the opinions of those who she is dressing for. -

 

But see - that's the point - that's YOUR take on it - and you have no idea what's in her head - and I offered the poster alternatives to "she's a flake and disrespectful". Perhaps in her mind it's not "the drooling dog in the bar is more important than my love" but is "being in control of and comfortable with myself is primary importance to me". Big difference there.

 

-Nobody simply dresses for themselves. Everybody dresses for someone else. Many women dress for other women...or so I have been told.-

 

Lots of women do -have you ever heard a couple of women tear up another woman's outfit? I sure have. Not ALL women - before someone jumps on me.

 

-And as for my wife feeling that women who dress like that are whatever....so she is not allowed to have an opinion that disagrees, either?-

 

I never said she wasn't entitled to it - I just said I didn't agree that other women define me - therefore no other woman's behavior or clothing can be degrading to me as a woman

 

-Any sentences used for quotation must be quoted in whole and not in part, please.-

 

awwww, but man...it makes the posts soooooooooooo long I really do try to not take them outta context or alter their meaning.

[InLimbo2]

EXACTLY! And it very well be something that he can't deal with and end the relationship.

 

The purpose of my posts was to give him possible alternatives to what's in her mind - as he obviously loves her and she loves him and he wants it to work. Up until I posted, everyone was all over her sh*t about her having psych issues and being disrespectful -I wanted him to know there ARE other possibilities/angles to the woman he loves.

 

There are - sadly - many times where one person's needs outweigh the good of the whole - on many topics - career, kids, money, family, religion - not just cleavage. And the two people either try to see each other's point and come to a compromise - or they end it because - the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the couple.

 

 

And that..ladies and gentlemen..is exactly the point of contention.

-

You say tomato, I say tomatoe, but maybe---just maybe--this is ALL a little bit too much about HER to leave room for his concerns.

 

I don't want to push anyone one way or the other, different views are welcome, but when 2 enter a relationship, I think this illustrates what happens when one person's "needs" outweighs the good of the whole.

 

New society mantra: it's all about ME ME ME!! Good riddance.

[InLimbo2]

I wasn't always, it took a long time to get here - but you know what they say - if you are the same person at 45 that you were at 35, then you've wasted 10 years of your life.

 

 

It's cool Inlimbo2

 

PS--Side note: It is also nice to hear you feel secure and happy with where you are/age , too many women don't feel that way and it makes me sad.

 

Nice to see positive examples.

[InLimbo2]

-I disagree. We all do things that cause reactions. And we all are responsible for those actions. I will use an example off topic. When a car suddenly stops in front of you at the stoplight, and you hit the rear end, you will get the ticket...yet you are only reacting. Is it all your fault? No, but you should have been prepared for all possible events while driving. Who is more at fault? The person who pulled out or the person who received the ticket? When -someone dresses a certain way and it causes a reaction, is he or she not responsible for ANY reactions? -

 

Hmm, that one was a lil convoluted If the car in front of you stops, you are responsible for your actions - or inactions- only YOURS. It's your responsibility to always be in full control of your vehicle at all times - you weren't - you didn't stop in time. In that case, you are only responsible for YOUR own actions. Now - your slamming on the brakes may in fact set in motion further reactions - the car behind you slams on his - hits you - that's a reaction - but that's not your fault - it's his responsibility because he failed to be in control of his own vehicle (just like you were when you hit the car in front).

 

-And as I sit here, my neighbors are grilling or having some fire in their backyard, and I smell the smoke in my house. Is it simply my problem that the smoke may cause me to have asthma (no, it won't but let's suppose for the sake of argument), or do they bear some responsibility for their fellow neighbor. Of course, in this case, I don't think they legally can have that fire in this town, but that is another case.-

 

Man, you do like to go off topic Ok - in this case - yes, it's simply your problem if they are grilling. You can close the window until they are done, just like you may avert your eyes to a woman's cleavage. Now, the more socially acceptable solution is to ask them to pay attention to which way the wind is blowing and try to prevent it.

 

-I will now stray from the topic...again. If I wear a shirt to to the workplace which has a picture of a naked woman on it, and it offends the women there, am I responsible for my actions? If I wear a shirt that is open to my belly button and it offends the other workers there, is this my fault that they react this way? Why am I doing it?-

 

Strictly with logic - no - you are not responsible for their reactions - some may be offended, some may laugh hysterically, some might even try to wax your chest with super glue and paper towels You did something that prompted their reactions, but they hold responsibility for their actions (like if the drooling dogs in the bar reach out to grope that we were talking about). Now,their reactions could be demand you be fired, or they could snap a pic for the bulletin board, or one might rip off your clothes and start to fondle you. They are each responsible for their actions based on your clothing. Is offense and demand for firing reasonable? most would think so. Would snapping a pic reasonable - personally I'd say yes. Is ripping off your clothing and fondling? nope - who's at fault there? the fondler. More than likely you'd be called to HR for counseling on company dress code. Why'd you do it? Dunno - why DID you do it? Did you want to get fired? Did you want to make folks laugh? Did you want to be groped? Could be any of them - just like there are more than one possible reason this woman likes wearing low cut shirts

 

-So we have it here. So, she does it not only for men. So she does it in front of women as well. The question is why. -

 

Good question - maybe the poster should ask her. Ya think?

 

-And if a woman who is with others who are offended by her dress, is she not responsible for her dress in any way? Can she wear what she likes wherever..and whoever feels as they do, well, that is their problem? -

 

In a social situation (where there is no company dress code that employment is dependent upon) and it's legal - yes, she can wear what she likes, and if people don't like it, that is their problem.

 

Personally, I dress how I like outside of work. I ride a motorcycle. I take a LOT of ribbing for my riding gear. Ya know - tough 'biker' image - you don't wear gear - you're a wimp. When I ride, I wear kevlar lined jeans, reinforced boots, armored gloves, armored jacket, and a helmet. heck, some men think a chick on a bike in all that leather or armor is sexy and look! Do I get reactions? Negative reactions? you bet. do I care? nope. My choice, entirely.

 

-No, we all take responsibility for our choices and actions. And we all accept the consequences.-

 

Exactly - just like I take the consequences - if I ride without gear, I may lose skin, if I wear gear, I may get teased - I make my own choice, skin is more important to me I sometimes wear sexy clothes, men look - that's a consequence. This poster's woman - her consequences are that men look at her - she seems ok with that. The other consequence is that she may lose her man - choosing her own clothing may be more important to her - for whatever reason -but only she can make that decision and choice for herself.

[EDDO]

Wow.... I want to thank all of you, I really do. I do want all opinions from everyone on this whatever they may be if it is only one post or many. I may agree with James perhaps but maybe it is way off base and she does it for different reasons as InLimbo has stated etc etc and I need to understand that. Everyone one has good points I think and this is a situation that I need to work and figure out what to do. I am not going to break up over it. Actually, we are in the process of her moving in with me. I am going to read everyone's posts again as that was a lot to take in so early in the morning. Again, thank you.

[JamesM]

InLimbo, well stated and argued. As you may know, I do not agree with everything, but I can say that I enjoyed your posts and points of disagreement.

 

And between the two of us, I think we portrayed two possible scenarios for EDDO to consider.

 

Good job....I enjoyed it.

[InLimbo2]

The discussion back and forth made you think and consider alternative possibilities. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

 

That being said, I stayed up WAY too late discussing this with James etal and was really dragging at work today, so if you two ever get married, I expect an invite to the wedding!

 

 

Wow.... I want to thank all of you, I really do. I do want all opinions from everyone on this whatever they may be if it is only one post or many. I may agree with James perhaps but maybe it is way off base and she does it for different reasons as InLimbo has stated etc etc and I need to understand that. Everyone one has good points I think and this is a situation that I need to work and figure out what to do. I am not going to break up over it. Actually, we are in the process of her moving in with me. I am going to read everyone's posts again as that was a lot to take in so early in the morning. Again, thank you.

[InLimbo2]

Tis ok that we don't agree - different POVs and opinions is what makes life interesting and keeps our minds expanding is it not?

 

I enjoyed the discussion as well. I probably neglected to mention that I have had some legal training and always won at mock trial

 

I'm just glad the poster has more than one scenario to consider - options are always a good thing.

 

Good job to you too - I enjoyed it also.

 

 

InLimbo, well stated and argued. As you may know, I do not agree with everything, but I can say that I enjoyed your posts and points of disagreement.

 

And between the two of us, I think we portrayed two possible scenarios for EDDO to consider.

 

Good job....I enjoyed it.

[JamesM]

Well, with no male arrogance in my voice , I have been known to win many written arguments. Maybe not as many oral...but yes, even there. But I don't think either of us want to turn this into a debate between the two of us. I think that is not fair to the OP.

 

If I could sum up the conclusion, I would say that you feel that the man is responsible for his actions, and the woman may wear what she wants...she has the right. And I say the man IS responsible, but the woman should expect consequences for her actions...whether it is men staring or her own boyfriend not liking it. Yes, she may wear what she wants, but we do not live in a "vacuum." Our actions have reactions, and we choose what does happen in our life.

 

Thanks for chatting...now let's take it outside, biker woman! Yea, I know...you will win. You have a blackbelt in karate. Well, I watch my boys train in martial arts..isn't that close enough?

[InLimbo2]

Nah - no interest in debate, we each make our points, and the original poster read them and came away with some alternate ideas - which was the goal

 

LOL - all geared up I'm told I look fierce, everyday life I look like your average suburban soccer mom. And most definately no blackbelt!

 

 

Well, with no male arrogance in my voice , I have been known to win many written arguments. Maybe not as many oral...but yes, even there. But I don't think either of us want to turn this into a debate between the two of us. I think that is not fair to the OP.

 

If I could sum up the conclusion, I would say that you feel that the man is responsible for his actions, and the woman may wear what she wants...she has the right. And I say the man IS responsible, but the woman should expect consequences for her actions...whether it is men staring or her own boyfriend not liking it. Yes, she may wear what she wants, but we do not live in a "vacuum." Our actions have reactions, and we choose what does happen in our life.

 

Thanks for chatting...now let's take it outside, biker woman! Yea, I know...you will win. You have a blackbelt in karate. Well, I watch my boys train in martial arts..isn't that close enough?

[EDDO]

I just wanted to thank EVERYONE who expressed their opinion whatever it may be. That was my goal when I posted and with all your help, I have a lot to think about then decide how I am going to handle this. I will keep you all updated if your interested. And yes, if we ever get married, you are all inited, lol. Once again, thanks alot to everyone. Cheers

 

EDDO