Question for OM

[HappyAtLast]

My Wife, the nerve of her, did not notice that yesterday I took the cages of her messy little parrots outside and power-washed them.

 

Now I am angry. I'm off to bed our cleaning woman

[Tomcat33]

My Wife, the nerve of her, did not notice that yesterday I took the cages of her messy little parrots outside and power-washed them.

 

Now I am angry. I'm off to bed our cleaning woman

 

 

:laugh: Exactly HAL!!

 

 

Gees if love were meant to be ilved in such a volatile fashion where would we be as a society?

 

anger + cheating = love still present but angry? c'mooon!

 

there can only be two possible answers to that equation

 

one does not understand love

or

one does not feel love

 

either way the true meaning of love is absent. and I know some may say but there are plenty of people who still love their mates and commit adultery and they would never think of leaving their mates for someone else because they love them. Well then I would ask, why engage in something that could potentially emotionally destroy the person they claim to love, if they found out?

[bullhunter]

hmmmmm, let's see now. . .

 

HAL, you were married for 20 years to a woman. She didn't do anything wrong in particular, you just weren't that happy with her any more. This is the woman that you originally promised to love and cherish until death do you part. So, instead of doing so, and instead of working on the problems in your marriage, you met another woman, fell in love and left the first. Now you are riotously happy for 40 years. As I recall you said somewhere that she still makes your heart stop, after 40 years. Now that shows a depth of emotion. And yet, you often refer to her as your OW. I didn't know that it was possible for a man to be married to a woman for 40 years and still think of her as an OW.

 

Yet you, as a man, cannot understand the consuming RAGE that can occur when a person, me for example, feels betrayed by the woman he loves. A woman I needed, but who drifted out of touch and became consumed with everything and everyone except for me. I felt so betrayed and so angry and so hurt that I felt impotent by the very strength of my emotions. This isn't the first time that I'm astounded by your reactions, because they feel so completely distant from the emotions not only that I experience but of any man I've ever known.

 

For some reason, you feel that you have done nothing wrong, though you left a woman you promised to love, honor and cherish. In leaving, you most probably destroyed her, even more so in the society of 40 years ago. Yet you have the unbelievable gall to criticize, and even ridicule me for hurting my wife who I loved then and still love.

 

As for you, TC, I can better understand your point of view, as you come, I believe, from experiencing the pain of being left by a MM. As a MM who didn't love the OW, and in fact have admitted to simply using her, I think it is impossible for you to even attempt to understand me, as it would take far more distance from your past situation to be able to gain the introspection that would be required. In fact, it may simply be impossible at any time in your life.

 

Oh yes, HAL, to answer your original insulting question... no, my wife doesn't read on this forum.

[bullhunter]

oh yes, one other thing. I in NO WAY think that what I did was right, either to my wife or the the OW, and I in NO WAY am using my anger as an excuse for what I did. It's not an excuse, but it is something of an explanation.

[Tomcat33]

 

As for you, TC, I can better understand your point of view, as you come, I believe, from experiencing the pain of being left by a MM. As a MM who didn't love the OW, and in fact have admitted to simply using her, I think it is impossible for you to even attempt to understand me, as it would take far more distance from your past situation to be able to gain the introspection that would be required. In fact, it may simply be impossible at any time in your life.

 

 

 

What can you understand? You can understand your situation and the reasons you tell yourself for doing what you did, but you have no clue what other men are feeling or thinking.

Having said that let me clarify something I ended the relationship he then proceeded to move back in with his W and is now contacting me periodically to let me know how miserable he is. I found my own closure in regards to the whole experience. Calling out a loveless act when I see one has nothing to do with my particular coping measures and more to do with stating what I see and how I intepret said acts.

 

I gained enough introspection to know that when a man engages in another relationship to fix the problems he has at home and flip flops back and forth in what he wants he has MORE problems than I do.

[Tomcat33]

oh yes, one other thing. I in NO WAY think that what I did was right, either to my wife or the the OW, and I in NO WAY am using my anger as an excuse for what I did. It's not an excuse, but it is something of an explanation.

 

 

Yeah I too went into my rel knowing that it was wrong to get involved with someone who was still married, that his W could find out about us and be deeply hurt, that I sat along and let him lie about us being together, yet I did it anyway. What's your point?

 

I think your meassure for what is right and wrong could have come in handy BEFORE the fact, what's the point of recognizing you always thought it was wrong before the fact but went along and did it anyway?

[silktricks]

I remember when I 1st started readin and posting here. There were a lot of ow that posted her then, and without fail they pointed out how complex relationships are. Well, they were right. (BTW, if any of you have contact with them, you might tell them that they are missed.)

 

Everyone on here seems so one dimensional anymore. MM bad. Ow victim. BS stupid.

 

Gee whiz, doesn't anybody anymore think there may be just a tiny little bit of complexity in interpersonal relationships? And that the complexity may even be something that you don't necessarily relate to yourself?

 

BS have a really difficult time relating to the idea that a person can love more than one person at a time. Ow have less trouble with that concept. Mm seem to have zero issues with it.

 

I can understand "cutting off your nose to spite your face" and since that is a quite well known colloquialism' then it's probably been done a lot. Hurting someone you love out of frustration or anger isn't exactly new to the planet. I know I've done it. If you haven't done it TC or hal, then more power to you!

[Tomcat33]

Hurting someone you love out of frustration or anger isn't exactly new to the planet. I know I've done it. If you haven't done it TC or hal, then more power to you!

 

 

Well yes of course I have hurt someone I loved, given something I may have said or done in anger that caused them pain however I can't say I have ever deceived, lied and pretended to love or care about someone while I was depositing my love and body on someone else! Sorry can't say I have done that.

 

If having an A is comparable to simply doing something casual that might hurt a partner why in the heaven do so many BSs have such a hard time getting over the pain inflicted by an affair. Might as well say to a BS

"get over it already!! haven't you ever been hurt before?"

 

Gees if you think there is even a point of comparisson then welcome to the 1D club Silktricks!

[silktricks]

If having an A is comparable to simply doing something casual that might hurt a partner

 

TC, that's not what I said. What I said was.....

 

 

Hurting someone you love out of frustration or anger isn't exactly new to the planet. I know I've done it.

 

I'm talking about things that are done purposely because one is angry or frustrated beyond bearing. The fact is that many of us do that and then "claim" that it was casual or an accident. I would bet that many if not most affairs are begun - not necessarily carried on, but begun, for that very reason.

[Tomcat33]

TC, that's not what I said. What I said was.....

 

 

Hurting someone you love out of frustration or anger isn't exactly new to the planet. I know I've done it.

 

I'm talking about things that are done purposely because one is angry or frustrated beyond bearing. The fact is that many of us do that and then "claim" that it was casual or an accident. I would bet that many if not most affairs are begun - not necessarily carried on, but begun, for that very reason.

 

 

 

 

Yeah I read and understood what you said PERFECTLY.

I insist, if you think that cheating is something that can be comperable to any other thing we do in a rel. that we do out of anger that peeves our mates off, then plesae tell all the BSs to just get over it. We all do things in anger right? He who shall cast the first stone...

 

C'mon adultery is in a league of it's own. Exactly how mad do you have to be to want to destroy your whole life with your partner including putting your own children at risk, not to mention use and hurt another person who has NOTHING TO DO WITH the anger your partner caused you? Sorry but the graveness of adultery doesn't compare to anything else we may do to spite our partners out of anger. We are talking about a handful of people suffering from your angry outburst VS one person suffering from your lashing out.

 

In my books that's a weak comparisson, to say yeah but who hasn't done something out of anger? You can do a lot things out of a lot of emotions but there are certain lines you don't cross because you know full well they could harm a lot of people you care about.

 

 

It's like saying well murder, murder is an act of anger, who hasn't felt angry enough they could just throw a plate or a pillow or whatever at another human being? Ahhh yeah but have you felt angry enough to kill someone? APPLES AND ORANGES.

 

And if you have then you need serious anger management classes LOL (you as in the general "you")

[bullhunter]

Yeah I too went into my rel knowing that it was wrong to get involved with someone who was still married, that his W could find out about us and be deeply hurt, that I sat along and let him lie about us being together, yet I did it anyway. What's your point?

 

I think your meassure for what is right and wrong could have come in handy BEFORE the fact, what's the point of recognizing you always thought it was wrong before the fact but went along and did it anyway?

 

My point is simply what I said. My anger isn't an excuse, it's merely an explanation for anyone who is interested in one. You aren't.

 

If you want to keep this up, you'll just be doing it on your own, as I'm done here.

[Tomcat33]

My point is simply what I said. My anger isn't an excuse, it's merely an explanation for anyone who is interested in one. You aren't.

 

If you want to keep this up, you'll just be doing it on your own, as I'm done here.

 

hey let me ask you this: if you had a daughter and a man killed your daughter would it make a difference to know what lead him to kill her?

[HappyAtLast]

hmmmmm, let's see now. . .

 

HAL, you were married for 20 years to a woman. She didn't do anything wrong in particular, you just weren't that happy with her any more. This is the woman that you originally promised to love and cherish until death do you part. So, instead of doing so, and instead of working on the problems in your marriage, you met another woman, fell in love and left the first. Now you are riotously happy for 40 years. As I recall you said somewhere that she still makes your heart stop, after 40 years. Now that shows a depth of emotion. And yet, you often refer to her as your OW. I didn't know that it was possible for a man to be married to a woman for 40 years and still think of her as an OW.

 

Yet you, as a man, cannot understand the consuming RAGE that can occur when a person, me for example, feels betrayed by the woman he loves. A woman I needed, but who drifted out of touch and became consumed with everything and everyone except for me. I felt so betrayed and so angry and so hurt that I felt impotent by the very strength of my emotions. This isn't the first time that I'm astounded by your reactions, because they feel so completely distant from the emotions not only that I experience but of any man I've ever known.

 

For some reason, you feel that you have done nothing wrong, though you left a woman you promised to love, honor and cherish. In leaving, you most probably destroyed her, even more so in the society of 40 years ago. Yet you have the unbelievable gall to criticize, and even ridicule me for hurting my wife who I loved then and still love.

 

As for you, TC, I can better understand your point of view, as you come, I believe, from experiencing the pain of being left by a MM. As a MM who didn't love the OW, and in fact have admitted to simply using her, I think it is impossible for you to even attempt to understand me, as it would take far more distance from your past situation to be able to gain the introspection that would be required. In fact, it may simply be impossible at any time in your life.

 

Oh yes, HAL, to answer your original insulting question... no, my wife doesn't read on this forum.

 

I apologize if I have insulted you, I haven't meant to.. although I did bristle a bit when you said that my statement regarding my truly loving a woman is ridiculous. I in no way meant to ridicule you, I do not feel like I have the right to ridicule anyone. That being said, can we call a truce?

 

I will tell you a bit of my back story, should you be interested. Yes, I was married for twenty years. My XW had several affairs in the first five years of our marriage. (So yes, I get that pain, truly, I am nto emotionless... but many years have gone by...) I stayed, because I was not going to abandon my son and be only a weekend dad. So - she did do something wrong, but still I stayed (and I don't mean I stayed and punished her, I did not do that). As years went by things went downhill. I cannot tell you how many times I begged her to go to counseling with me, try to get things back on track. She refused. I finally gave up and we co-existed, pleasantly mind you, for our son. I told my XW that I would be leaving when my son went away to school. So, if she was destroyed when I left, which I had been telling her for five years that I was going to... she had ample opportunity to help me fix our marriage, she opted not to.

 

I met my wife (I only call her my OW on this board for clarity) two months prior to my son leaving for school. Yes, I am deeply in love with her. She is an amazing woman, my best friend, a brilliant surgeon, she is my heart and soul and has been for all of these years. I am not sure why my love for my wife upsets you?

 

So, I acknowedge that cheating on my XW was wrong. If you have read any of my posts I in no way try to excuse myself. Regardless of what my XW may or may not have done, I am at fault for cheating, I fully acknowledge that and certainly am not proud of it.

 

Anyway, again, apologies if I have upset or insulted you.

[silktricks]

[sIZE=2]TC, if it wasn't for the fact that I'm sure you honestly believe what you are saying, I'd be laughing fit to die. To compare adultery to murder is like comparing a swimming pool to the Pacific Ocean and on top of it, sounds like something out of the dark ages.

 

Nowhere have I said or implied that the lies and deception of adultery were OK. What I've said is that those actions are, as are so many human actions, understandable even while being unpalatable. I have not ever denegrated the paint that BS or OW or MM experience.

 

The only MM I have seen you applaud or accept are those who leave their wives to be with the OW. Those, as you said in this thread "know the true definition of love". That definition seems to provide peace for you. The MM, however, who realize they have done wrong and return to their wives in repentence, those men, according to you, should without fail be "kicked to the curb" in punishment. You have implied, if not said, that any wife, such as myself, who has forgiven her husband is a fool.

 

I also am apparently a fool in your eyes for expressing understanding that people are complex. In my opinion, people can do things that are unsavory, unpleasant, even outright cruel for a variety of reasons, and anger is one of those reasons. Granted, sometimes the reason is that the person is simply a creep, but usually that isn't the case. Usually actions, even damnable actions, are rooted in complex emotions. Earlier on this thread I gave the example of my father-in-law. His actions were abominable, yet those actions did not stem from a lack of love. I'm not saying that I would want to experience those actions, but what I am saying is that there are a lot of reasons for a lot of things. In my father-in-law's case, I believe that the root of his actions was primarily fear. It would be easy to say that he didn't love his wife, or couldn't love anyone, but ease doesn't equal accuracy, and that would not be an accurate statement.

 

Understanding that there are complex reasons for people's actions does not mean the same as agreeing with those actions. It doesn't mean approval of their actions. Understanding means only understanding. It does not even imply forgiveness, as sometimes understanding the root cause of an action can make forgiveness impossible. Understanding also doesn't mean that the people who are hurt are any less hurt or that their pain is any less deep. I am repulsed by your insistence that I am saying it does.

 

But. . . people are complex, very complex, and to vilify any person due to a single set of actions is, I feel, taking a simplistic, one-dimensional approach to a complex multi-facted issue.

[/sIZE]

[Tomcat33]

Nowhere have I said or implied that the lies and deception of adultery were OK. What I've said is that those actions are, as are so many human actions, understandable even while being unpalatable. I have not ever denegrated the paint that BS or OW or MM experience

 

Oh I can understand the many many reasons why people do things but that might not change how I feel about having a certain thing done to me. comparing it to murder is like comparing it to any act we just can't seem to fathom WHY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND A PERSON WOULD DO such thing, of course they are not in the same league. I could understand why a person committed a crime that doesn't mean I have to forgive. All personal choice really. You chose to understand and forgive the crime your H committed I choose not to. Choice is really what we are arguing about. I think it's foolish to forgive a cheater, that doesn't mean people can't do it I just think it is.

 

 

 

 

The only MM I have seen you applaud or accept are those who leave their wives to be with the OW. Those, as you said in this thread "know the true definition of love". That definition seems to provide peace for you. The MM, however, who realize they have done wrong and return to their wives in repentence, those men, according to you, should without fail be "kicked to the curb" in punishment. You have implied, if not said, that any wife, such as myself, who has forgiven her husband is a fool

 

Well then maybe you should look harder because I applaud all sorts of people for many different reasons. The fact that you are chosing to focus only on when I give postitive affirmation to what a man IN THE CHEATER'S seat does could be one of few reasons.

 

1. you are seeking that out

2. the types of men who are also the cheaters are far and few apart, and the I am NOT going to support or praise a man who cheated and then talks of the ex OW like the worst peice of garbage that could have happened to him. just as I would not praise a man who talked like that about his W. The bottom line is I cannot give positive affirmation to someone who willingly engaged in an adulturous act, and when faced with having to make a decision is all too happy to speak the worst of the woman he once claimed to love. I just can't support that. that's what you have seen here in my posts.

3. let's face it there aren't a whole lot of men who come on to this board who are in the cheater's seat. I have seen a few that stayed with their W's and were respectful of both women in his recount and I always support that. A man who can make a decison and stand by taking responsibility for his actions, earns all my respect. A man who makes a decision and tries to pull all the negative weight on the OW after that fact really is not worthy of respect.

 

 

I also am apparently a fool in your eyes for expressing understanding that people are complex. In my opinion, people can do things that are unsavory, unpleasant, even outright cruel for a variety of reasons, and anger is one of those reasons. Granted, sometimes the reason is that the person is simply a creep, but usually that isn't the case. Usually actions, even damnable actions, are rooted in complex emotions. Earlier on this thread I gave the example of my father-in-law. His actions were abominable, yet those actions did not stem from a lack of love. I'm not saying that I would want to experience those actions, but what I am saying is that there are a lot of reasons for a lot of things. In my father-in-law's case, I believe that the root of his actions was primarily fear. It would be easy to say that he didn't love his wife, or couldn't love anyone, but ease doesn't equal accuracy, and that would not be an accurate statement

 

 

Again I can totally appreciate the compexity of us humans, I am one remember? Where we differ is on our views of love, to me a person who feels love does not hurt their partner in the worst way possible. I mean c'mon what else is there that truly damages a partner besides adultery? Abuse, and phsyical abuse....oh and abuse of the children. But cheating in my mind is right up there with abuse. I would NEVER stay with a man who abused, me so I would NEVER stay with a man who cheated on me.

I don't care the reasoning behind the complexities that drove him to act as he did, it's not healthy, it's not understanding love, it's not for me.

 

 

 

Understanding that there are complex reasons for people's actions does not mean the same as agreeing with those actions. It doesn't mean approval of their actions. Understanding means only understanding. It does not even imply forgiveness, as sometimes understanding the root cause of an action can make forgiveness impossible. Understanding also doesn't mean that the people who are hurt are any less hurt or that their pain is any less deep. I am repulsed by your insistence that I am saying it does

 

Well that's where you an I part company, to me accepting someone back into your life who has proven to break your trust who has proven to want to hurt you in a deep way with no regard for what you shared, IS agreeing with his actions. The only way to show them you disagree with what they did is to make them pay for it by letting them lose what supposedly are now all to ready to fight to keep! Where was all that willingness to fight for what you have whent he rel started to drift or the problems set in? When it comes down to it we may be complex but the way we decide on things is not that complex at ALL.

 

If you were to go to work everyday and start missing days here and there and dragging your feet while the rest of your team mates are pulling their weight to get their projects done would you also assume you must be given a second chance? Why? why should you, you know the rules, you know that if you slack you could lose your job and there are plenty people on the outside who would gladly take your job...so nahhh I don't buy that for a second.

 

People make mistakes but they also don't.

 

I would tollerate a lot of things in a rel but there are things I totally draw the line on, adultry is one of them ONE chance, don't blow it.

Because they way I look at it cheating boils down to two things, you are either avoiding and trying to escape something or you want out so either way the reason behind is good enough for me to say, you don't deserve a second chance WE don't deserve a second chance.

That is one mistake I would have no time for

 

I'd rather be one dimensional than ubiquitous and nowhere at all. At least when you are one dimensional you know exactly where you are.

[East of Jupiter]

I will look for the link but there are two types of men who are in affairs. The cheater, who find himself in a situation once and never do it again. The womanizer who makes it a lifestyle. He manipulates and uses women but he doesn't really like them. It is not about the sex or the excitement so much as their ability to fool and "get over" on women. And don't expect them to acknowledge this as they don't ever think they have a problem, but an entitlement to have it all and to manipulate and hurt anyone in their way.

[East of Jupiter]

From my lifelong experiences I have learned one valuable lesson. I am the daughter of a cheater, the daughter of the distraught wife, the sister at the receiving end and the giving end. I am the best friend who was cheated on and the one who cheated on her best friend. I am the girl with the MM and I am the wife.

 

We don't all come with instructions and not everyone has the same capacity for love. This is evident even when the issue in a marriage is not infidelity.

 

I read here some who say I would never cheat on the woman I love, but this same person may routinely subject their spouse to some other humiliation and think nothing of it. Lordy I see this so often.

 

Not sure who said it, but it is the most true thing said on this thread ... you can only speak for yourself.

[Lizzie60]

how do you call the type who cheats with one at a time...and can go on for many many many years with only one OW... he's not a womanizer, because he's not necessarily out there looking for different women... and he's not what you call a 'once' cheater...either...???

[Tomcat33]

We don't all come with instructions and not everyone has the same capacity for love. This is evident even when the issue in a marriage is not infidelity.

 

I read here some who say I would never cheat on the woman I love, but this same person may routinely subject their spouse to some other humiliation and think nothing of it. Lordy I see this so often.

 

Not sure who said it, but it is the most true thing said on this thread ... you can only speak for yourself.

 

Very profound words!! It is totally true we don't all come with the same capacity for love. And I agree there are all sorts of things that people do in their marriages/rels that are just as damaging if not more than infidelity so to me what it boils down to is what you will and will not tollerate.

 

The way I see it is you go into the rel with an agreement of what's accepted and what is not, if one of the two people cross a line into the unaccepted, what was the point of defining that was unacceptable....you might as well go into it accepting it all because you will anyway...!?!

 

I have also read many many times, people cheat on partners who they feel they can get away with it...

not sure if that's true or not but I can sort of see that.

[East of Jupiter]

how do you call the type who cheats with one at a time...and can go on for many many many years with only one OW... he's not a womanizer, because he's not necessarily out there looking for different women... and he's not what you call a 'once' cheater...either...???

 

In my interpretation and opinion, a man who has one affair that last a week or 20 years is a cheater. If that same man had that one affair and also others, he would be a womanizer.

 

But you can interpret for yourself. I looked up the information and I am sharing here with you:

 

Even though surveys vary greatly in their estimate of infidelity (from 25% to 70% of partners), the Kinsey Institute estimates that about 35% of husbands and 30% of wives have been unfaithful. Janus & Janus (1993) also found that more than 1/3 of husbands and more than 1/4 of wives have had an extramarital experience, but less than 1/4 of divorces are caused by affairs. Of course, as time goes on, more of the faithful will become unfaithful. It may be hard at first to separate the chronically unfaithful from those who have only one brief affair in 50 years, but these are very different people. Pittman (1989) distinguishes between adulterers and womanizers. Adulterers (males) usually have one affair, typically during a crisis--when passed over for a promotion or when his wife is very busy--and then feels guilty. Womanizers compulsively seduces women as a full-time avocation and hide this from their wives. They often claim to have a high sex drive and a lust for sexual variety. Their therapists say such men often don't like women or even sex. Womanizers have a disease or an addiction, in which they see women as the enemy. They think of "being a real man" is escaping a woman's control and as being someone who can powerfully manipulate and deceive women. Like a rapist, he seeks power and superiority. Many had fathers who escaped their mothers via work, divorce, or alcohol. There are some 12-step programs for womanizers. Advice for therapists of people who have had affairs is given by Eaker-Weil and Winter (1993) and Brown (1991).

[East of Jupiter]

Very profound words!! It is totally true we don't all come with the same capacity for love. And I agree there are all sorts of things that people do in their marriages/rels that are just as damaging if not more than infidelity so to me what it boils down to is what you will and will not tollerate.

 

The way I see it is you go into the rel with an agreement of what's accepted and what is not, if one of the two people cross a line into the unaccepted, what was the point of defining that was unacceptable....you might as well go into it accepting it all because you will anyway...!?!

 

I have also read many many times, people cheat on partners who they feel they can get away with it...

not sure if that's true or not but I can sort of see that.

 

 

I don't think that is always true. Then again, it can become true. I am no push over. My father did a lot of damage and I am very open about my feelings about that. I didn't get married with my eyes closed or with a man who was not aware of my issues and expectations.

 

Having said that, I didn't leave the first time he cheated. It was something he had done ten years earlier. The second time I caught him looking up old friends. Do you leave for that? Not with a bunch of kids and good marriage. So, when he did confess to an long distance SA, I was ready and had I been able to physically do so, would have removed him from the home. But I didn't leave. He confessed to who he has always been and everything in his past. Do you leave then? When someone is finally (you think) being honest and willing to work on themselves?

 

<shaking my head>

 

So it could be true. Had I left at the first sign, he would have not gotten away with the second or third. Does that mean I'm a pushover? Weak? A coward? Stupid? Maybe but I don't think so. I've done a lot of personal work and I know that a chance I gave someone else does not make me those things ... it makes the other person those things. We are supposed to forgive and give chances and offer trust and elevate others from their pitfalls. Is that not what I would want for myself if I failed? Is that not what I want for my kids if they fail? That one trusts and someone else takes advantage doesn't make that trust any less of a beautiful gift. It is how it is supposed to be.

 

I think growing up with a cheating father and a suspicious mother all of my life, I was conditioned for the situation. And honestly, I was just so terribly confused and still am in some aspects. I'm still learning much about myself.

[silktricks]

I could understand why a person committed a crime that doesn't mean I have to forgive. All personal choice really. You chose to understand and forgive the crime your H committed I choose not to. Choice is really what we are arguing about. I think it's foolish to forgive a cheater, that doesn't mean people can't do it I just think it is.

 

That's correct. Choice is indeed what we are discussing. (and of course, I said that understanding does not equal forgiveness) Not because I feel that you have made or would in fact ever make the wrong choice FOR YOU, but rather because you have the temerity to claim that I have made the wrong choice FOR ME. You think it's foolish to forgive: ergo one who does forgive is a fool. I on the other hand think that FOR ME it would be foolish to not forgive. Further, I resent your implication that anyone who does not agree with you is wrong, gullible, foolish, etc.

 

The fact that you are chosing to focus only on when I give postitive affirmation to what a man IN THE CHEATER'S seat does could be one of few reasons.

 

1. you are seeking that out

no, not exactly.. It’s more thrust upon me

2. the types of men who are also the cheaters are far and few apart, and the I am NOT going to support or praise a man who cheated and then talks of the ex OW like the worst peice of garbage that could have happened to him. just as I would not praise a man who talked like that about his W. The bottom line is I cannot give positive affirmation to someone who willingly engaged in an adulturous act, and when faced with having to make a decision is all too happy to speak the worst of the woman he once claimed to love. I just can't support that. that's what you have seen here in my posts.

 

What does this have to do with anything? In fact, what indeed are you talking about? My comment was in regards to the fact that I’ve not seen you commend a MM who returns to his wife. Period. Yet you are seem very happy to commend a MM who stays with the OW. Period. That’s OK. It’s your opinion, but don’t pretend it’s something other than what it is.

 

3. let's face it there aren't a whole lot of men who come on to this board who are in the cheater's seat. I have seen a few that stayed with their W's and were respectful of both women in his recount and I always support that. A man who can make a decison and stand by taking responsibility for his actions, earns all my respect. A man who makes a decision and tries to pull all the negative weight on the OW after that fact really is not worthy of respect.

Again, what on earth are you talking about? Are you reading the same thread I’m reading?

 

{snip} But cheating in my mind is right up there with abuse. I would NEVER stay with a man who abused, me so I would NEVER stay with a man who cheated on me

I don't care the reasoning behind the complexities that drove him to act as he did, it's not healthy, it's not understanding love, it's not for me.

 

And that’s then a good choice for YOU. Where I have a problem with your posts is the fact that you don’t keep that line drawn. You stray very far into the “what’s right for me must therefore be right for everybody” lane, and then add the corollary that there must then be something basically “wrong” with anyone who doesn’t do what you would do. For example

 

{snip} to me accepting someone back into your life who has proven to break your trust who has proven to want to hurt you in a deep way with no regard for what you shared, IS agreeing with his actions.

 

I’d love to say, Oh my God, you’ve got to be kidding, but unfortunately, I know you are not.

 

The only way to show them you disagree with what they did is to make them pay for it by letting them lose what supposedly are now all to ready to fight to keep! {snip}

Frankly, I think you are still in the mode of “this MM hurt me, so by extension every MM should be punished.” I have seen this attitude amongst former OW. At first it made me angry. Now it simply makes me laugh. You are espousing the point of view that if you don’t agree with behavior then you therefore MUST punish it, and if you don’t punish it, then you agree with it. I think your premise is silly. Do you think that it’s bad behavior to bed down with a married man? I do. Do you think that bad behavior should be punished? I don’t. Does the fact that I don’t think it should be punished mean that I agree with the behavior? Not even a teensy, tiny bit!!!

 

If you were to go to work everyday and start missing days here and there and dragging your feet while the rest of your team mates are pulling their weight to get their projects done would you also assume you must be given a second chance? Why? why should you, you know the rules, you know that if you slack you could lose your job and there are plenty people on the outside who would gladly take your job...so nahhh I don't buy that for a second.

 

Have you ever managed a staff of people? Specifically a staff of technical people? If so, you’d know that people almost always get at LEAST one additional chance, often more then one. They are counseled and worked with. Especially given the example you have given here. People are valuable. Employees are valuable. It is far more economical, and creates a far better team environment to correct a problem employee than it is to get rid of the employee and go through another training and team adjustment period.

 

I would tollerate a lot of things in a rel but there are things I totally draw the line on, adultry is one of them ONE chance, don't blow it.

Because they way I look at it cheating boils down to two things, you are either avoiding and trying to escape something or you want out so either way the reason behind is good enough for me to say, you don't deserve a second chance WE don't deserve a second chance. That is one mistake I would have no time for

 

And it’s good then, that you draw that line for you. If you marry, I’m sure that you’ll make it clear. Unlike you, I think that there’s an entire host of things that can and does precipitate actions. I’d prefer that my reactions not be rigid and inflexible, as I do not wish to be treated in a rigid and inflexible manner. If someone shows me their sorrow, I would not wish to beat them with a stick

 

I'd rather be one dimensional than ubiquitous and nowhere at all. At least when you are one dimensional you know exactly where you are.

I dunno, the idea of being everywhere all at the same time seems a little godlike to me. Maybe it would be fun.

[Tomcat33]

 

 

If someone shows me their sorrow, I would not wish to beat them with a stick

 

Clearly you operate under very relaxed terms, in some aspects I am sure it is beneficial to you but in others I am sure it is not.

 

 

I dunno, the idea of being everywhere all at the same time seems a little godlike to me. Maybe it would be fun.

 

If your idea of fun is being no where at all, sure...

 

Could go into a long winded post arguing all your points but I jsut could not be bothered. I'll tell you why: I think it's foolish to take a cheater back you think it's not. We'll never agree otherwise because we both think what we choose is right, and never the twain shall meet. So there is no point arguing it out.

 

Hopefully I won't have to see you in the betrayed spouse forum next time around and won't have to point out to you the obvious.

 

Bottom line, at the end of the day it's your choice to spend the rest of your days babysitting a man who can't be trusted, my time on this earth is too prescious for that.

Different strokes....

[Tomcat33]

Frankly, I think you are still in the mode of “this MM hurt me, so by extension every MM should be punished.” I have seen this attitude amongst former OW. At first it made me angry. Now it simply makes me laugh. You are espousing the point of view that if you don’t agree with behavior then you therefore MUST punish it, and if you don’t punish it, then you agree with it. I think your premise is silly. Do you think that it’s bad behavior to bed down with a married man? I do. Do you think that bad behavior should be punished? I don’t. Does the fact that I don’t think it should be punished mean that I agree with the behavior? Not even a teensy, tiny bit!!!

 

My "mode" has nothing to do with my last experience. I have been of this idea since I can remember. I was cheated on many years ago by the man I was engaged to marry, and never took him back. My philosophy has not changed over the years, in fact having lived everything I have post that it has only gotten stronger I dont' have any regrets WHATSOEVER.

 

I think your punishment theory has more to do with you not wanting to punish yourself for being left alone if you kick your man out, than it does for punishing anynone else. To me it boils down to whether you have the self confidence to say to yourself, "ok this didn't work out, but I can manage with out him and will definitely be with someone better down the road."

 

As long as you deny yourself that idea, you will always forgive things that are going to eat up your life unecessarily.

[silktricks]

I think your punishment theory has more to do with you not wanting to punish yourself for being left alone if you kick your man out, than it does for punishing anynone else. To me it boils down to whether you have the self confidence to say to yourself, "ok this didn't work out, but I can manage with out him and will definitely be with someone better down the road."

 

As long as you deny yourself that idea, you will always forgive things that are going to eat up your life unecessarily.

 

Why is it that you want to change me so badly? And where on earth did you ever come up with the idea that I don't have self-confidence? :lmao: Oh, if you only knew. . .

 

I don't want to "kick my man out" because I love him, I know he loves me and I know that he'll never make the same mistakes again just as I know I will not. We worked our problems out, and the problems were not only his. I'm not "into" punishment. I think it damages the both the person doing the punishing and the person receiving the punishment. I trust that all things will work out. I believe in truth and justice and mostly I believe that peaceful and loving solutions work better than violent ones.

 

I hope that you have peace in your life, and I also hope that someday you will realize that however well your solutions work for you, they do not work for everyone.