To those of you in successful relationships...or at least wiser than I am!

[Zapbasket]

What's involved in taking that step successfully to get married? I'm not sure that this is exactly the question that's prompting me to start this thread, but I'll ramble a little and hopefully it will be somewhat clear what I'm trying to get at.

 

My relationship of 5 years ended in February. What has made it so devastating, aside from the fact that I really loved him, and felt he really loved me, is the fact that after 3 years of LD, he finally moved across the country to be with me. We hunted for an apartment, and as I was still a student and broke, he signed the lease and paid the rent and all the fees, etc. I never moved in, and we never lived together, and less than three months into his being here, he broke it off. Over and over I've asked myself, Was it he who was unable/unwilling to commit? Or was it me? Or was it both of us? And how could it be, since we both seemingly really wanted this? On my side, I wanted to move in, despite being temporarily totally financially dependent upon him, and that bothered me, and I tried to discuss it with him but he didn't really discuss solutions with me. He said he wanted me to move in while I finished up my thesis and hunted for jobs, but then he also expressed resentment at the rent and said he could get a roommate who could pay more. Also, one month into his being here, two of his friends wanted to come visit, and I was upset because I hadn't moved in yet and he hadn't yet given me a key to the apt and was giving his friend a key while he visited, and that upset me and I said so. And he said, "It's my apartment and I can have anyone over that I want to." At the same time, he left space on the bathroom shelves for me to put my stuff, which I never put there, because I was confused by the mixed messages and dealt with it by refusing to come and stay, even for weekends. Because I felt he was breaching what I thought was our original understanding: that the apartment was OURS.

 

I could fill the whole website with examples such as above, but this is representative of the kinds of interactions we would have about moving to the next phase of our relationship. We operated on the mutual notion that we were going to eventually get married, but he never actually set a specific time frame and I didn't push because I'm old-fashioned in this respect: I feel it's the man's place to open the marriage discussion. Quite a problem when you're with someone who, for the whole 5 years of the relationship, never initiated discussion of ANYTHING, and when I did, he would close off.

 

So now the relationship is over against my choice, and I'm left wondering, Was I not committed? Was he? And am I someone who is unable / too immature / to fill-in-the-blank to take that step to living together with a potential life partner and getting married?

 

I think we both got scared, and were looking for assurances from one another that were thwarted/muted by all our defensive reactions to our fear. But isn't it always a little scary? Can't fear be worked through?

 

I still don't know what I'm really getting at! I guess, how did those of you who navigated these relationship hoops successfully manage it? How did I fail? I mean, should I have just moved in anyway and chalked all his stingy talk up to his fear? Was I right to hold off until we were interacting better about it all? How do you know when you did the right thing?

 

This is so garbled I should probably not send it...but maybe people's responses will help me get more clear about what I'm trying to raise. I feel like I really failed, and I'm afraid of failing again. Even while feeling at heart that I am someone who knows what commitment means and is capable of practicing it. So confused...wisdom is appreciated!

[OpenBook]

Over and over I've asked myself, Was it he who was unable/unwilling to commit? Or was it me? Or was it both of us? ... I tried to discuss it with him but he didn't really discuss solutions with me ... I was confused by the mixed messages and dealt with it by refusing to come and stay, even for weekends... I'm old-fashioned in this respect: I feel it's the man's place to open the marriage discussion. Quite a problem when you're with someone who, for the whole 5 years of the relationship, never initiated discussion of ANYTHING, and when I did, he would close off.

 

So now the relationship is over against my choice, and I'm left wondering, Was I not committed? Was he? And am I someone who is unable / too immature / to fill-in-the-blank to take that step to living together with a potential life partner and getting married?

 

I think we both got scared, and were looking for assurances from one another that were thwarted/muted by all our defensive reactions to our fear. But isn't it always a little scary? Can't fear be worked through?

 

I still don't know what I'm really getting at! I guess, how did those of you who navigated these relationship hoops successfully manage it? How did I fail? I mean, should I have just moved in anyway and chalked all his stingy talk up to his fear? Was I right to hold off until we were interacting better about it all? How do you know when you did the right thing?

 

First of all, you didn't fail. You simply loved someone in an R that ended up not being the right thing for you. I think you're very lucky that you DIDN'T go through with getting married! Whew, close call!!

 

IMO, "fear" like what you described (always having to pull teeth to discuss things with him; his inconsistent messages; etc.) are just warning bells that went off in your head. You knew something was wrong with this; your gut instinct kicked in, and you dug in your heels (refused to move in with him). I say, GOOD FOR YOU. You behaved in a way that was authentic to YOU.

 

ALWAYS trust your gut.

 

This guy wasn't the right one for you. There is someone out there (and IMO, there could be several - even many - out there) who IS right for you.

 

When it's the real thing, you don't experience those "fear" feelings like you did with this guy. The real thing doesn't make you feel insecure at all. It EMPOWERS you. It ENHANCES what you already are.

 

Please don't second-guess yourself.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks, OpenBook. It's hard to embrace the notion that the whole thing wasn't right for me. I mean, I felt he WAS right for me, even amidst my doubts. Another way to say it is that my sense of the overall rightness of this person for me outweighed the various doubts I had. Which is why I had no intention of breaking up with him, even though I was very, very angry at him for not taking the lead when he was much more in a position to do so, I felt.

 

Interesting that (if I'm understanding your post) you're saying instinct and fear were one and the same in this instance. That's been something I've been struggling with: was I acting on a healthy gut instinct that things needed to align better for us to live together successfully, or on an unhealthy fear motivated by old insecurities? I keep looking back at my behavior and feeling un-proud of myself for handling things by yelling at him rather than stepping up and saying, "I love you very much. Things are not going so well and I want to work with you to improve our present situation."

 

Do you think, OpenBook, that what you said about me could also be said about him--that he kept throwing up obstacles to my moving in simultaneously with saying he really wanted me to move in because in truth he felt I wasn't right for him? He'd said (just 4 days before he broke up with me) that he wanted to be with me forever...and he'd said that for years.

 

I *feel* like I'm ready to get married...but then I look back at my behavior this past fall after he moved here and think maybe I still have some growing up to do (I'm 30).

 

Thanks for your supportive words, OpenBook. Even as I keep questioning myself, it feels good when someone says they understand why I acted the way I did.

[VIP]

he also expressed resentment at the rent and said he could get a roommate who could pay more.

 

That means he would rather live with a roommate, than you.

 

"It's my apartment and I can have anyone over that I want to."

 

Then he should live alone in HIS apartment, because in a relationship everything is supposed to be OURS.

I think you did yourself a favour by breaking up with him. The man is not used to giving and sounds quite selfish. Don't always assume that you are the one to fix the relationship. This time it's definitely his fault.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks, VIP--that's what I want to believe. It's just that his parting words really messed with my head: he said that I was "unwilling to compromise." He blamed me--well, in the end he blamed me for everything--for not coming at least to stay over once I started my job so that my commute would be less. But I felt totally unwelcome at his apartment. If I'd been wiser, would I have not avoided the 'site of contention,' and just shown up there with a suitcase in hopes of mending things? I mean, the way I handled it, he shut me out and then I in turn shut him out. He did that at another pivotal time in the relationship--when he wanted me to move to HIS city, and I was seriously considering it but it was a big deal for me as I had little money and his huge family and all his lifelong friends were there and I had no one there...and then, right in the middle of all the considerations, he informed me that his mom thought I was crazy. Which, I found out later, was not true...but it served to completely scare me away from moving to his city. Again, I felt unwelcome. So I stayed put and he resented me for years for not moving to be with him. It was only after we were broken up that I saw how his telling me that was responsible for my not moving, and not something internal with me. It really hurt me as I have no family and wanted very much to have a good relationship with his.

 

If I were 'more mature,' would I have brushed these things off and just shown up? Is that the trick in a marriage, when one partner gets scared and defensive--that you just forge ahead anyway and focus on showing YOUR love, rather than on getting proof of their love for you?

[VIP]

If I were 'more mature,' would I have brushed these things off and just shown up? Is that the trick in a marriage, when one partner gets scared and defensive--that you just forge ahead anyway and focus on showing YOUR love, rather than on getting proof of their love for you?

 

No, it's not. You need to discuss everything that bothers you, otherwise you will build resentment overtime and one day it will blow up, which can create a lot of damage.

[Curmudgeon]

I think the "trick" in a marriage is open and honest communication; conversations, not confrontations. It's being comfortable enough with your spouse and secure enough in your relationship to be able to risk discussing even the sensitive or unpleasant things that arise without fear that it will challenge your commitment, one to the other.

 

It's also being mature and open enough to sometimes simply agree to disagree when you can't truly come to a meeting of the minds. Someone doesn't always have to win because that also means that someone else has to lose.

 

These are some of the things I learned in a failed marriage that lasted 25 year. The biggest lesson I learned was that the best you can do is marry your friend!

[katiebour]

We hunted for an apartment, and as I was still a student and broke, he signed the lease and paid the rent and all the fees, etc. I never moved in, and we never lived together, and less than three months into his being here, he broke it off.

 

Over and over I've asked myself, Was it he who was unable/unwilling to commit? Or was it me? Or was it both of us? And how could it be, since we both seemingly really wanted this?

 

On my side, I wanted to move in, despite being temporarily totally financially dependent upon him, and that bothered me, and I tried to discuss it with him but he didn't really discuss solutions with me.

 

You both went into the moving-in stage with the idea that you knew what you were getting into, and he fronted the bills with the expectation that you would eventually be sharing them. Maybe you or he both found that things in your relationship worked in a wildly different way when you were finally physically together?

 

Your comment that he "didn't discuss solutions with you" makes me a bit curious. What was there to discuss? Either you're being totally supported while you go to school, or you go to school part-time, or you quit and get a job. Either way it's all up to you, not him. Did he have some expectations from you financially that didn't pan out once he arrived?

 

He said he wanted me to move in while I finished up my thesis and hunted for jobs, but then he also expressed resentment at the rent and said he could get a roommate who could pay more.

 

This sounds like he was feeling some stress and resentment that he was footing all the bills- maybe he didn't expect to have to do so, or it was more expensive than he thought it would be? Financial stress is the worst thing that can happen to a relationship- it's hard to be loving when you're worried about keeping the lights on or food in the fridge, and especially if the other person is not working. Intellectually you know that going to school is the best thing for their career, but it's hard not to feel emotionally that you are being leeched off of, especially when you have no "guaranteed" committment such as marriage. My b/f is currently in school so I know how that goes.

 

Also, one month into his being here, two of his friends wanted to come visit, and I was upset because I hadn't moved in yet and he hadn't yet given me a key to the apt and was giving his friend a key while he visited, and that upset me and I said so. And he said, "It's my apartment and I can have anyone over that I want to."

 

Sounds like he was really missing the support network and family that he had in his hometown. And since he was footing the bill for the apartment, and you were refusing to live there, he felt as though it WAS his apartment. You weren't sharing it at that point so it wasn't "ours." It was his.

 

At the same time, he left space on the bathroom shelves for me to put my stuff, which I never put there, because I was confused by the mixed messages and dealt with it by refusing to come and stay, even for weekends.

 

That sounds like a missed opportunity to me. He was inviting you to make the place yours, to start the process of moving in, and your refusal to do so might have made him doubt whether or not you wanted to live with him. That kind of feeling could really sting after moving away from everything to be with you.

 

Because I felt he was breaching what I thought was our original understanding: that the apartment was OURS.

 

If it was both of yours, then why weren't you living there?

 

Sometimes you just have to make that leap of faith and make your move. It sounds like you were really afraid to move in with him because of your financial situation (are you living with parents?) and neither of you were communicating about the situation.

 

We operated on the mutual notion that we were going to eventually get married, but he never actually set a specific time frame and I didn't push because I'm old-fashioned in this respect: I feel it's the man's place to open the marriage discussion. Quite a problem when you're with someone who, for the whole 5 years of the relationship, never initiated discussion of ANYTHING, and when I did, he would close off.

 

Marriage is not a band-aid that heals all wounds. Certainly it would be good to have the discussion at some point- but if you could not even discuss your living and financial arrangements, then you weren't ready for marriage.

 

So now the relationship is over against my choice, and I'm left wondering, Was I not committed? Was he? And am I someone who is unable / too immature / to fill-in-the-blank to take that step to living together with a potential life partner and getting married?

 

I think we both got scared, and were looking for assurances from one another that were thwarted/muted by all our defensive reactions to our fear. But isn't it always a little scary? Can't fear be worked through?

 

I agree with you here- it sounds like there was a lot of fear on both sides. Your refusal to move in could have been seen by him as a refusal to commit, which would be a slap in the face after him leaving his home, friends, and family behind. But he was also at fault for not talking to you about his insecurities, and trying to work out a resolution.

 

The solution to fear is courage and communication. Once you face your problem head-on, you can solve it.

 

I guess, how did those of you who navigated these relationship hoops successfully manage it? How did I fail? I mean, should I have just moved in anyway and chalked all his stingy talk up to his fear? Was I right to hold off until we were interacting better about it all? How do you know when you did the right thing?

 

When my boyfriend moved an hour away to go to school, I commuted on weekends back and forth for 9 months. On my birthday I decided enough was enough, and based on discussions we had had about both of us wanting me to be there, I packed up my car, quit my job, and moved. I knew that I would be carrying the bulk of the financial responsibility, and I knew that I hadn't had a clear-cut conversation where we decided together that I would be moving in, but I had to take the gamble for my own happiness.

 

I have never regretted it. In the past year that I have been living here, we have had financial stressors, ups and downs, and gotten used to living together, sharing responsibilities, paying taxes on our mobile home, grocery shopping, etc. It has gotten us that much closer to "married." The piece of paper would at this point change very little in terms of our life- it would simply solidify the committment that we have to one another.

 

How did I know I was doing the right thing?

 

Frankly, I didn't.

 

I simply knew that it was a chance I had to take for my own happiness. I knew that living together was a direction we both wanted to move in, and that living together would either make or break us. If it didn't work out, I would have moved back home, it would have been over, and I would have had to move on. But it was better to know that a year into the relationship than 4 years down the line when he graduates.

 

I feel like I really failed, and I'm afraid of failing again. Even while feeling at heart that I am someone who knows what commitment means and is capable of practicing it.

 

You made mistakes. So did he. Unfortunately, everyone makes them because we're all human and fallible. If this relationship is gone beyond the point of salvage, then you simply have to learn from it.

 

Do you think, OpenBook, that what you said about me could also be said about him--that he kept throwing up obstacles to my moving in simultaneously with saying he really wanted me to move in because in truth he felt I wasn't right for him? He'd said (just 4 days before he broke up with me) that he wanted to be with me forever...and he'd said that for years.

 

What was your response to him saying "I want to be with you forever?" Did you say, "Yes, I want to be with you too, and I'll start moving my things in tomorrow," or "Yes, I want to be with you too, but I don't feel like you really want me there, so I'm not moving in until you prove to me that you want me to."

 

Of course you didn't say the first, but what I'm getting at, is what was the tone of your response? Was it a trusting response, indicating your willingness to take that next step? Or did you hedge and turn "I want to be with you forever" into "I'm saying I want to be with you forever but I don't really mean it."

 

It's just that his parting words really messed with my head: he said that I was "unwilling to compromise." He blamed me--well, in the end he blamed me for everything--for not coming at least to stay over once I started my job so that my commute would be less. But I felt totally unwelcome at his apartment.

 

I have to admit I simply don't understand this. He moved to your city, paid the bills on an apartment he expected to share with you, made space in the bathroom for your stuff, and yet you did not feel welcome? Your loving boyfriend of 5 years, who says things like "I want to be with you forever," could not make you feel welcome?

 

Either there were other things that he was saying or doing that were giving you extremely mixed messages, or you were so wrapped up in fear and resentment that you could not accept the outstretched hand that was extended to you. Only you can know for sure which one it was, because none of the rest of us were there.

 

 

he shut me out and then I in turn shut him out.

 

Tit for tat will salvage your pride, but it will not and did not give you the relationship you wanted. Definitely something to remember. I know for me personally one of the biggest growth areas for me was realizing that my relationship and being happy were more important than my pride or having the last word.

 

 

He did that at another pivotal time in the relationship--when he wanted me to move to HIS city, and I was seriously considering it but it was a big deal for me as I had little money and his huge family and all his lifelong friends were there and I had no one there...and then, right in the middle of all the considerations, he informed me that his mom thought I was crazy. Which, I found out later, was not true...but it served to completely scare me away from moving to his city.

 

He just made up a random statement that his mom thought you were crazy? This would be a huuuuuge red flag for me. Of course, you and I will never know what went on between him and his mom, it could have been something as simple as "Any girl who wouldn't want to move here to be with you would be crazy." I could see that as a typical mom statement. But it was unkind and immature to pass that comment along to you- what purpose could it serve, except to hurt and frighten you?

 

That reminds me of my first boyfriend telling me after going to one of his relative's weddings: "My cousin says she knows someone who could get diet pills for you." Coming from someone I didn't even know, who didn't know me, that kind of unsolicited, catty comment certainly didn't give me a very good impression of his family!

 

If I were 'more mature,' would I have brushed these things off and just shown up? Is that the trick in a marriage, when one partner gets scared and defensive--that you just forge ahead anyway and focus on showing YOUR love, rather than on getting proof of their love for you?

 

I believe this is true with all my heart. You can't constantly be testing the people that you love. You have to trust them. Remember that the only person you can control is yourself- you can't make someone offer you an olive branch or a committment. All you can do is offer yourself, your trust, your love, and accept whatever comes from that.

 

If you had moved in with him, and it hadn't worked out, worst case scenario you would have broken up and moved back home.

 

How is that different from your situation now?

 

The only difference is that you will never know if things could have been different if you had trusted the things he said to you.

 

I think you're on the right path to learning from this- simply think about what you would have done differently if you had it to do over again, and then take those lessons with you into your next relationship.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks so much, Curmudgeon, VIP and Katiebour. Curmudgeon, you're right: I recognize now that perhaps the most relationship-saving thing you can do is to cool it for a while when you see that you and your partner are unable to reach agreement on something, rather than let it escalate into a huge argument where each side tries to be "right." I hope I can develop the discipline in the future to say, "Hey, it doesn't seem like we're going to reach agreement in this conversation--how about we refrain from discussing it for a few days and then try again? And I'm going to think about what you said."

 

And I agree about open and honest communication, Curmudgeon and VIP. But what do you do when you're with someone much less communicative than you? My partner would avoid discussion--he'd get me to relent trying to discuss X issue with the promise that he'd bring it up himself in our next conversation, and then days or weeks would pass, and he'd never bring it up. I increasingly felt that if I didn't try to discuss every little thing, NOTHING would get aired and resentment would build, and for a while he said this effort on my part was "a huge relationship-saver," but then he resented me for it so that in his final break-up e-mail he said to me, "One of the reasons I don't want to discuss things with you is that there will never be enough discussion...." All that time, I *thought* I was doing what was best for the relationship, but instead I feel like my insistence on discussion of key and not so key issues (it disintegrated into just a desperate effort to achieve SOME real communication about our relationship after a while) just drove him away.

 

Katiebour, your post was incredible. I had to print it out so I could read it over more carefully. I'm really mulling over all you said and want to respond to you in more detail--right now, I'm late for work. So...thank you; more to come.

 

I don't know what I'd do without this site.

[Curmudgeon]

But what do you do when you're with someone much less communicative than you? My partner would avoid discussion--he'd get me to relent trying to discuss X issue with the promise that he'd bring it up himself in our next conversation, and then days or weeks would pass, and he'd never bring it up. I increasingly felt that if I didn't try to discuss every little thing, NOTHING would get aired and resentment would build, and for a while he said this effort on my part was "a huge relationship-saver," but then he resented me for it so that in his final break-up e-mail he said to me, "One of the reasons I don't want to discuss things with you is that there will never be enough discussion...." All that time, I *thought* I was doing what was best for the relationship, but instead I feel like my insistence on discussion of key and not so key issues (it disintegrated into just a desperate effort to achieve SOME real communication about our relationship after a while) just drove him away.

 

For the last half of the former 25-year marriage I could discuss nothing with the ex. It always and in all ways came down to the fact that she was right and I was wrong and deficient. I guess that's just life with a narcissist. Discussion was fruitless.

 

As for the rest, one of the things this old soldier learned many years ago was to pick your battles wisely. If you're not willing to fall on your sword for it or to use up a silver bullet, perhaps it can just be let go.

 

It sounds like what you wanted most of all was some attention and validation; an acknowledgement that you existed and were important to him. However, that's something you can't force. It's either there or it's not.

[Trialbyfire]

he finally moved across the country to be with me.

To be fair to the guy, he moved to be with you. This was a huge commitment on his part and he needed to see you reciprocate it.

 

Regardless GreenCove, why are you still cycling through this relationship, months and months and months later. You need to focus your energy on letting your ex and your previous relationship go.

 

At the end of the day, does it really matter who's fault it was that things didn't work out? It won't change anything knowing that he was 60% at fault and you were 40% at fault.

[cmhbach]

True, but it takes more time for some people and not as long for others, to be over and done with a relationship. IMO, this is particularly true when a person has been emotionally invested to the point of considering living with another person...and then it ends...

 

Moving on to the next relationship having learned from mistakes is the best thing...

[Zapbasket]

To be fair to the guy, he moved to be with you. This was a huge commitment on his part and he needed to see you reciprocate it.

 

Yes, and I feel very guilty about that. But it was a big issue for me that I had no money at the time he moved, and no job. And he was resentful of having to pay for ANYTHING, and so I stopped coming to be with him in the apartment after a matter of weeks because inevitably in this city every time you walk out the door you spend money. Instead, on weekends he came to see me at my mom's house, where I was living, and where his meals, laundry, entertainment, etc. was all free and plus we could spend time together. He resented it, but what could I do? He also resented my having no money? I felt helpless. Then I got my job and within a month he'd broken up with me.

 

He moved to be with me because back last March, I was visiting him in his city when he was about to turn down a job offer with this company because their main office was in his city. He really wanted to work with them. I couldn't bear to see him turn down his first pick on my account, and so I looked up where else this company had offices, and come to find out, there was one in the city nearest me. I practically wrote the e-mail for him asking the company CEO if they'd take him at this satellite office. I will always wonder what decision he'd have made if I'd not been there. He NEVER made decisions, and it was a big issue in our relationship. I really couldn't tell whether it was his first priority to be with me; I just felt that all round he didn't know what he wanted. For all I know, it wasn't so much to be with me that he moved, but to get out of his home city and start fresh somewhere else where there was much more opportunity in his line of work.

 

And--his company paid for 100% of his move. For me to have moved, I'd have had to scrabble together money here and there--he works in finance. He makes A LOT of money. Which is why his quibbling about rent, meals, etc.--especially when we had a FIVE YEAR history of me always offering to pay my way as best I could--was a huge slap in the face.

 

Regardless GreenCove, why are you still cycling through this relationship, months and months and months later. You need to focus your energy on letting your ex and your previous relationship go.

 

Why? Because I loved him very much. I was angry at him at the end, and frustrated, but I loved him. He was the best friend I"d ever had in my whole life. He and I were more on the same intellectual wavelength than anyone in my life. We loved to do the same things.

 

Because I would never throw a relationship away like he did. Because I never would have expected this of him. Because I FEEL HIS ABSENCE FROM MY LIFE EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY. Because I recognize that I lost something precious that I will never have again. I will love again, of course, but I will never have this one human being in my life in the same way again, if at all. Because he was like family to me. Because I felt a very deep bond with him. Because I sacrificed a lot to try to make our relationship work until the point where he ended it.

 

Because I miss him desperately.

 

Because it's completely foreign to me to chuck a relationship like this. Because HE'D *JUST* moved here and I had a million hopes for our future together.

 

It will take some time to get over this loss. I'm working at it every day. I also want to learn from what happened, rather than shove it all under the rug and try to forget about it. I wish the process could go faster, but it can't. It hurts very deeply; that's the truth.

[Touche]

Hi GC, I'm sorry you're going through this but can I ask a couple of questions? I'm not clear on something. You say you were with him for 5 years, three of which were LD. How often did you see each other during the LD phase? Also, are you saying it's been two years that he's lived near you? How did the two years that weren't LD work? Has this trouble only started when you started talking about living together?

[VIP]

It's obvious, that you care a lot about this man. But he doesn't care about you, and that's why it would never work.

[Zapbasket]

It's obvious, that you care a lot about this man. But he doesn't care about you, and that's why it would never work.

 

Do you really think it's that simple? If he really didn't care, I'd have felt that. I have a healthy enough self-esteem that I'd have walked if I felt the base of our issues was his not caring about me. He's not a callous person. I feel like he thought I didn't care about HIM. And that's why I examine this over and over: I *did* care, and so if I engage in behaviors in my intimate relationships that somehow give the opposite message, I want to be sure to work on my communication.

 

I just really don't want to go through this again, to the extent I can control that (which I realize is very little!). And I want to be the very best person I can be, and so I want to learn from what clearly were egregious errors of judgment I made with this relationship.

[VIP]

So what was the base of your issues? How could you have cared more than you did? I suppose you should have talked more about things that bothered you. Would that change his attitude? I don't know, but for me it's a major turn off, when a man is trying to be cheap with me.

[Zapbasket]

Hi GC, I'm sorry you're going through this but can I ask a couple of questions? I'm not clear on something. You say you were with him for 5 years, three of which were LD. How often did you see each other during the LD phase? Also, are you saying it's been two years that he's lived near you? How did the two years that weren't LD work? Has this trouble only started when you started talking about living together?

 

Hey Touche-- No, he moved cross country last September. He broke up with me in December. In that three-month span, we didn't live together; I started my job in November. We spend weekends together in the suburb where I was living temporarily with my mother.

 

During the first of the three LD years, we saw each other regularly one weekend a month, and all of my school breaks and part of the summer. During the second two of the LD years, there was one point where we went 7 months without seeing each other. But we talked on the phone EVERY DAY for one hour at minimum, and more frequently 2 hours. We e-mailed each other throughout the day, as well. We both were going through major career crises. I really, frankly, don't know how we survived. It was an unhappy period in both of our lives.

 

this is why it hurts so poignantly that after all that, it ended without our ever getting to be together without all the agony of the distance and career confusion. The whole thing just still, after nearly 6 months, feels like an awful slap in the face--so many expectations, harbored for so long, dashed. I'll survive, of course, but I have to achieve a whole reorientation of expectations, and there's a lot of heartache involved.

[Touche]

I'm still a little confused here but the bottom line for me is that in my opinion, you never really had a real relationship. Phone calls and emails do not a relationship make, you know? You've never really had a foundation here for much, IMO.

 

Also, I think you're beating yourself up too much. I'm not the Queen of Compromise myself. I can be stubborn, etc. etc. But yet, I managed to find the right man for me. I guess what I'm saying is that with the RIGHT man, it isn't going to be this difficult. It should be easy....or at least easier than what I'm seeing here.

 

I think it's interesting that you were both willing to go so long as an LD couple. I think that's way longer than most would go. I do wonder if there are commitment issues on either or both sides here.

 

My gut feeling though is that you're simply not compatible. If he's that difficult to talk to and doesn't open up the way you want him to, well that will not change...or at least it's very unlikely.

 

It's easy to idealize someone when it's just phone calls, emails and occasional weekends. I think the two of you never really knew each other in any real sense. And once you did, you weren't that crazy about what you saw.

 

I'd stop beating myself over this and move on. Find someone who makes you feel very sure of where you stand...because that's how it's supposed to be.

[Zapbasket]

I'm still a little confused here but the bottom line for me is that in my opinion, you never really had a real relationship. Phone calls and emails do not a relationship make, you know? You've never really had a foundation here for much, IMO.

 

I can see why you could see it that way--certainly from the sound of it a lot of his friends did. My partner got really upset once when he went to a party and the wife of one of his friends joked in front of everyone about his "imaginary girlfriend." He called me afterwards nearly in tears, and angry at me. I was furious with this woman and thought it was profoundly insensitive of her to do that to him. It hurt when last summer I went to the wedding of one of his friends, and friends of his I'd met many times before were introducing themselves to me as though I'd not remember. I was hurt because I heard about them every day; I knew about details of their sex lives, for Pete's sake.

 

The thing is, the relationship FELT REAL to me. I try to tell myself the same thing you're telling me, but that's not what I felt, and that's not what I feel. We *were* together nearly two years before the LD, and the LD started when he finished his Ph.D. and couldn't find a job in the city he's now moved to, and returned home to where a job was offered to him. Perhaps I should have broken up with him then, but we both felt we could make the long distance work. And then things fell apart for both of us in our career lives. I ended up in the majorly wrong graduate program for me, and finished by the skin of my teeth, and he ended up in the wrong field for him. We were exhausted and frustrated, yet we kept the relationship up. REsentments grew out of missing each other, needing each other and being so far apart.

 

That's why I still feel so confused; my instincts usually are so good; I really trust them, but they're helter-skelter. I find it difficult to say we were incompatible, for example, because that's not what I felt when I was with him.

 

 

I think it's interesting that you were both willing to go so long as an LD couple. I think that's way longer than most would go. I do wonder if there are commitment issues on either or both sides here.

 

That's what I'm asking myself. I feel it's more that I got overwhelmed by my scholastic struggles, and by living at home (shame), and then I was overcome with guilt that I wasn't being the kind of girlfriend I knew I could be and had been in the first 2-3 years of our relationship. I felt alone, I wanted him to come and be with me, and yet I was too ashamed for him to see how down I was.

 

I don't know what was going on on his end. Why he reported to me that his mom thought I was crazy, for example (which she did not in fact say), right as I was deciding whether to move to be with him, to move home, or to stay in the city where my university was--just one example.

 

My gut feeling though is that you're simply not compatible. If he's that difficult to talk to and doesn't open up the way you want him to, well that will not change...or at least it's very unlikely.

 

Maybe that's what he decided ultimately. I hadn't arrived at that decision yet--I'm still struggling to see that clearly.

 

It's easy to idealize someone when it's just phone calls, emails and occasional weekends. I think the two of you never really knew each other in any real sense. And once you did, you weren't that crazy about what you saw.

 

I don't know that I idealized him. I think I saw him warts and all in the first 2 years of our relationship. We spent one summer traveling in latin America, and I think we both got a pretty full picture of our good and bad sides on that trip, and moreso afterwards.

 

He may have idealized me; he always called me "magical" and "amazing." It was flattering, but I know I'm neither of those things.

 

I'd stop beating myself over this and move on. Find someone who makes you feel very sure of where you stand...because that's how it's supposed to be.

 

I wish it were that easy!

 

Thanks, Touche.

[Touche]

I can see why you could see it that way--certainly from the sound of it a lot of his friends did. My partner got really upset once when he went to a party and the wife of one of his friends joked in front of everyone about his "imaginary girlfriend." He called me afterwards nearly in tears, and angry at me. I was furious with this woman and thought it was profoundly insensitive of her to do that to him. It hurt when last summer I went to the wedding of one of his friends, and friends of his I'd met many times before were introducing themselves to me as though I'd not remember. I was hurt because I heard about them every day; I knew about details of their sex lives, for Pete's sake.

 

The thing is, the relationship FELT REAL to me. I try to tell myself the same thing you're telling me, but that's not what I felt, and that's not what I feel. We *were* together nearly two years before the LD, and the LD started when he finished his Ph.D. and couldn't find a job in the city he's now moved to, and returned home to where a job was offered to him. Perhaps I should have broken up with him then, but we both felt we could make the long distance work. And then things fell apart for both of us in our career lives. I ended up in the majorly wrong graduate program for me, and finished by the skin of my teeth, and he ended up in the wrong field for him. We were exhausted and frustrated, yet we kept the relationship up. REsentments grew out of missing each other, needing each other and being so far apart.

 

That's why I still feel so confused; my instincts usually are so good; I really trust them, but they're helter-skelter. I find it difficult to say we were incompatible, for example, because that's not what I felt when I was with him.

 

 

 

 

That's what I'm asking myself. I feel it's more that I got overwhelmed by my scholastic struggles, and by living at home (shame), and then I was overcome with guilt that I wasn't being the kind of girlfriend I knew I could be and had been in the first 2-3 years of our relationship. I felt alone, I wanted him to come and be with me, and yet I was too ashamed for him to see how down I was.

 

That's what I was trying to say. It wasn't a real relationship. You were perpetuating a myth. I can't believe that you had a relationship for TWO YEARS before the LD and you still didn't feel like you could expose your true self to him, warts and all. You never really let him see the real you. Traveling together is great but it's not every day life. Seeing each other through life's trials and tribulations and the routine is what counts.

I think it's interesting that his friends called you the "imaginary g/f." Maybe they know him pretty well. Maybe you wanted him to see you as this perfect ideal. You never really were willing to expose who you really were. And that's also why I say that you didn't have a REAL relationship. It was based on lies really. How can you have a real relationship with someone you really, truly don't know?

 

I don't know what was going on on his end. Why he reported to me that his mom thought I was crazy, for example (which she did not in fact say), right as I was deciding whether to move to be with him, to move home, or to stay in the city where my university was--just one example.

 

Could it be he was trying to push you away? That this relationship was starting to feel too "real" to him?

 

 

Maybe that's what he decided ultimately. I hadn't arrived at that decision yet--I'm still struggling to see that clearly.

 

I know you said you FELT compatible with him but if you look at the reality, you really weren't. Feelings aren't always accurate. You have to look at the facts...and you've given us enough facts to say with certainty that you two are really not compatible.

 

 

I don't know that I idealized him. I think I saw him warts and all in the first 2 years of our relationship. We spent one summer traveling in latin America, and I think we both got a pretty full picture of our good and bad sides on that trip, and moreso afterwards.

 

I know but as I said...traveling together for a summer still isn't the reality of life. You were both still in fantasy mode.

 

He may have idealized me; he always called me "magical" and "amazing." It was flattering, but I know I'm neither of those things.

 

Interesting...that was part of the fantasy for him. And when it got to be too real, it was no longer magical and amazing.

 

 

 

I wish it were that easy!

 

Well, it's not that easy..been there done that myself. But if you ever want to have what you want, you have no choice but to give yourself closure on this and move on. It's your choice. And good things never come easily in life.

 

 

 

Thanks, Touche.

 

You're very welcome. I hope you can sort this out because you seem stuck.

[Zapbasket]

I don't know that I'm "stuck," but I am hurt. And sad. I thought about the "real relationship" thing. I don't think anyone on the outside can ever tell whether a relationship is "real." Certainly 25-years-long marriages in which the spouses do not ever communicate with one another about anything intimate, just the mundanities of the day, could be said to not be "real," and I've heard of people who are long distance for 5 or more years and then come together, marry, and everything goes smoothly. It's not unusual to carry on a LD relationship for several years. A friend of one of my partner's friends went for 6 years without seeing his now wife. Before they married, she joined a dance company in Europe and they had a mutual understanding that at that time her career had to come first. There are thousands of ways to carry on a relationship.

 

This relationship was real to me. It hurts just as much as if we'd lived together always. He wasn't always the most communicative, but he shared more with me than he'd ever shared with anyone else--none of his friendships are "intimate" in the sense that he doesn't seek emotional connection with his friends. I don't understand when I post here and people say, "Just move on." I am grieving. The relationshp was significant TO ME--deeply significant. I think I feel confused about my instincts because THESE are my real instincts, and I get swayed by people telling me, "Oh, forget about him." If he was so easily forgettable, I'd never have bothered to enter into a relationship with him, let alone hold out for three years until things finally aligned so that one of us could move to be with ther other.

 

We didn't have to grapple with things that a lot of couples have to grapple with, and we grappled with other things. We were close and intimate in some ways, and not in other ways. the reason Katie's post blew me away is because she treated my relationship as the real one I felt it to be. I was hurt, and so was he--he didn't just "not care." You can't simplify things like that.

[Touche]

GC, first I want to apologize for the way my response posted. Not sure if you saw it all because I have part of my response in italics where your post is. Did you see it all?

 

Secondly, I'm not saying it didn't feel real to you. I understand that. But when you say that you couldn't show him the real you and your circumstances, well to me that doesn't sound real. But I won't argue the point anymore.

 

As for being stuck..you say you're not. But didn't you say that he ended this in Dec.? (Did I get that wrong?) Because if he ended it in Dec. that's six months ago. And yet, you can't move forward. You want to understand when sometimes there is no understanding. Sometimes it's as simple as that. Wasn't meant to be..trite but true. You sound stuck to me because you're really trying to understand. But what's the point? You might never understand.

 

I loved my ex with all my heart and soul. But it was wrong. All wrong. It was wrong from the beginning and I didn't want to face that fact.

 

And I also never said to "forget about him." But dwelling on a relationship that ended six months ago isn't going to help you in any way. What good can come of it?

 

The next relationship will have a different set of issues, more than likely. So understanding what happened in this one won't necessarily help you with the next one.

 

Hopefully, you'll know to stay away from men who can't be open with you. And look for a man who accepts you just as you are, flaws and all. That's about all you can take away from this. Other than that, you're just spinning your wheels.

[Touche]

What's involved in taking that step successfully to get married?

 

Wanted to just go back to your opening question here, GC. You seem upset that you're getting the "move on" advice. But look, let's be realistic here, ok? What else do you expect to hear?

 

Look at the question you asked in your first post. The answer to your question is to MOVE ON. It really is. You asked for responses from people who have successful relationships. I'm one of those people. And what did it take to get to this point? It took a lot of things but the FIRST thing it took is for me to MOVE on from my previous relationship (which lasted on and off for 9 years..part of it was LD also.)

 

So, I'm sorry that the "move on" irks you and seems too "simple." But hey, that's the answer to your question. It was the answer for me anyway. Perhaps others have figured out a different way..I don't know. I can only speak for myself.

 

Were you asking how to get to that step with THIS guy? Well, in my opinion, it ain't gonna happen with him. You've had either 5 or 7 years with him..(was never clear on that.) So chances of that happening with him now, after he broke up with you in Dec. are slim to none.

 

I feel for you. I really do. There's nothing worse than a breakup from someone you really loved...trust me I know. I was in a very, very low place after the break up with my ex. So I know where you are.

 

I guess it's bugging me that you think I'm callous and that I think things are simple. Well, they're not. I've been through hell and back. Many of us have been through hell and back before things go our way. You'll make it through this. You really will. But you first have to mentally "move on." And that's why I said you're stuck. I'm not getting that you really have mentally moved on.

[Trialbyfire]

You do have to move on GreenCove. It's for your own emotional health. I've also moved on during a similar period of time, including all the hell of the ex-H being a liar/cheater and all the emotional/legal rigamarole of a subsequent divorce. I've never loved anyone with the depth that I loved that man.

 

The only way to get out of cycling, is to be determined to let go, to move on. Make it a consistent, conscious effort.

 

I'm sharing this with you, not as a comparison of one-upmanship but that it is possible to move on, regardless of how bad things were and how much you love.

 

Surprisingly you can also love again. There's a wide open sky out there.