zman Posted October 12, 2003 Posted October 12, 2003 I find it notable that in both cases here, we have an woman dating a much younger guy who is getting off at kiddie porn. I would think that if the guy liked younger women, then he would rather date a young woman instead of an older woman. You would think that if he really liked older women, he would be looking at porn with older woman models instead of young girls. But perhaps these guys were infactuated by kiddie porn precisely because they were dating older women, and secretly wished their girlfriends were younger. I think these guys are not admitting to themselves that they would rather be with a younger woman. Either that or they want an older, mother figure girlfriend around to scold them and be the mother they never had or something like that. But these women have little ground to stand on when they complain about guys liking younger women. They were both dating guys significantly younger than they are!! Why are they attracted to young guys almost 10 years younger then them, instead of older more mature guys their age or slightly older????? That is the big elephant sitting in the middle of this thread - room.
Lurker Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 Zman, not only does your post not make sense, but I also find it kind of offensive that you seem to be suggesting that these women are to blame for their BFs' obsession with kiddie porn. Originally posted by zman ...[T]hey want an older, mother figure girlfriend around to scold them and be the mother they never had.... In order for these women to be "mother figures," they would have to be confident, emotionally strong (or at least stronger than the men they're dating) and have the desire and ability to take control of the relationship. However, they are both clearly very insecure, and at least one has been manipulated by her BF into believing that she's to blame HIS wrongdoing. That clearly suggests that HE has control over HER. Also, neither is the "scolding" type, because Velvetgirl said she "did not shame him or blame him" and both had trouble confronting her respective BF for his deceit and illegal/immoral activities. Therefore, your theory is invalid. Originally posted by zman But these women have little ground to stand on when they complain about guys liking younger women. They were both dating guys significantly younger than they are!! Why are they attracted to young guys almost 10 years younger then them, instead of older more mature guys their age or slightly older????? Zman, I think you're way off base on this one. These women and their BFs are ALL consenting ADULTS. Their BFs are not looking at "younger women"; these guys are sexually excited by CHILDREN. Children are NOT sexual beings; they are innocent and lack the emotional maturity to fully understand and consent to sex. Therefore, having sexual contact with a child or looking at kiddie porn is both IMMORAL and ILLEGAL. Originally posted by zman ...[P]erhaps these guys were infactuated by kiddie porn precisely because they were dating older women, and secretly wished their girlfriends were younger. Again, this is not about them looking at younger women; it's about them looking at children, some as young as 11! If the guys wanted younger women, they would have looked at those, not KIDS! Originally posted by Zoobie ...[H]ave you tried 'role playing' a much younger version of yourself? Maybe pigtails or a ponytail and whatever short skirts and lightweight blouses teenagers are wearing right now? If you love him, you will try to like what he likes....up to a point. I'm shocked and horrified that you'd suggest such a thing, Zoobie! If she thinks has to pretend to be someone that she's not in order for him to have any sexual interest in her, that would be even MORE damaging to her self-esteem. Also while he's having sex with her, he'd be pretending she was a child. That means that she would be feeding his obsession with kids. Doing this would make her just as morally wrong as he is, especially when he decides that he shouldn't continue to settle for an imitation when he can get the real thing. Chris, unless you have an obsession with real children then you can't compare yourself to these guys. Under these circumstances, if these women play the role of young children, it would be extremely unhealthy.
Whispurr Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 SweetJulia, I really feel for you and I hope you will find the strength within you to cut off all ties with this guy for good. I can see the way this relationship is eating away at you. Your BF is a very selfish and manipulative person to cause you so much stress, depression, confusion and heartache—and then turn around and try to convince you that YOU are to blame for the problems in the relationship. Even when he sees how much pain he's causing you, he's not motivated to even try to change. He's taking advantage of your good heart and your low self-esteem. He does NOT deserve you, and you do NOT deserve this emotional turmoil he's putting you through.
zman Posted October 13, 2003 Posted October 13, 2003 Originally posted by Lurker Zman, not only does your post not make sense, but I also find it kind of offensive that you seem to be suggesting that these women are to blame for their BFs' obsession with kiddie porn. Wrong, I'm not suggesting that the women are to blame in any way for their BFs' obsessions. I'm sorry if you or anyone else took what I said the wrong way. In order for these women to be "mother figures," they would have to be confident, emotionally strong (or at least stronger than the men they're dating) and have the desire and ability to take control of the relationship. That may be your own personal perception of what a mother figure is or should be, but I guarantee you that for millions of people, their own mothers were not like this and therefore their image of a mother figure does not live up to your personal ideal. However, they are both clearly very insecure, and at least one has been manipulated by her BF into believing that she's to blame HIS wrongdoing. That clearly suggests that HE has control over HER. Also, neither is the "scolding" type, because Velvetgirl said she "did not shame him or blame him" and both had trouble confronting her respective BF for his deceit and illegal/immoral activities. We don't really know what is going on in these relationships. All we have heard is one side of a complex relationship. It's very easy to put people into the roles of perpetrator and victim based on limited, sketchy information. Things aren't always as simple and cut and dried as they might seem. Zman, I think you're way off base on this one. These women and their BFs are ALL consenting ADULTS. Their BFs are not looking at "younger women"; these guys are sexually excited by CHILDREN. Children are NOT sexual beings; they are innocent and lack the emotional maturity to fully understand and consent to sex. Therefore, having sexual contact with a child or looking at kiddie porn is both IMMORAL and ILLEGAL. Again, this is not about them looking at younger women; it's about them looking at children, some as young as 11! If the guys wanted younger women, they would have looked at those, not KIDS!. Point taken. Even if most of the porn these guys were looking at were not in reality underage girls, the fact is that they were searching for it, given the keywords the ladies found. But, I may be wrong, but I think the general objective for these guys was to find pictures of naked young teens, and with one thing leading to another down the slippery slope, they ended up crossing the line between 18 and 17, then to 16, 15, 14, and on down the ladder. From what I've heard, some of the stuff that is supposedly illegal on Kazaa and what not actually has legal age models, and people name the files provocatively in order to entice, mislead, or shock surfers. But don't get me wrong, from what I hear, the really bad illegal stuff does exist, too. But you can't deny that there is a bizarre inconsistency with these guys lusting after young teens and/or children, while at the same time dating older women who are not just a year or two older, but almost 10 years older than they are. And SweetJulia did offer up this complaint: "Do men like only younger girls? Is there hope for women over 35?" My comments were directed narrowly at this comment, highlighting the hypocrasy of a woman complaining about guys liking younger women or girls, while she herself was dating a much younger guy, and by implication rejecting guys her own age or slightly older. However, I would like to add that I am totally on Sweet Julia's and Velvetgirl's side in these cases, and I think they should dump these guys and probably report them to the authorities. I feel for them and think they deserve better than these losers. My point is that it might help for them to do a little introspection while they are at it also. I'm shocked and horrified that you'd suggest such a thing, Zoobie! If she thinks has to pretend to be someone that she's not in order for him to have any sexual interest in her, that would be even MORE damaging to her self-esteem. Also while he's having sex with her, he'd be pretending she was a child. That means that she would be feeding his obsession with kids. Doing this would make her just as morally wrong as he is, especially when he decides that he shouldn't continue to settle for an imitation when he can get the real thing. I totally agree that Zoobie's bizarre suggestion is disgusting and in exceedingly poor taste, and would probably be harmful for all involved.
Lurker Posted October 14, 2003 Posted October 14, 2003 That may be your own personal perception of what a mother figure is or should be, but I guarantee you that for millions of people, their own mothers were not like this and therefore their image of a mother figure does not live up to your personal ideal. It's not my personal perception of what a mother figure should be. Psychology will tell you that when men are looking for mother figures, these are the kinds of qualities they look for in a woman. My comments were directed narrowly at this comment, highlighting the hypocrasy of a woman complaining about guys liking younger women or girls, while she herself was dating a much younger guy, and by implication rejecting guys her own age or slightly older. You're jumping to conclusions, zman. The fact that SweetJulia and VelvetGirl are dating THESE men who happen to be younger does not mean that they are ONLY attracted to younger men. But you can't deny that there is a bizarre inconsistency with these guys lusting after young teens and/or children, while at the same time dating older women who are not just a year or two older, but almost 10 years older than they are. It's strange, yes, but why should we expect rationality from a sick mind? I understand what you're trying to say, Zman...I just don't really agree. If a side affect of dating women much older than oneself is becoming sexually obsessed with young girls, wouldn't all men who date older women get that sickness? However, I would like to add that I am totally on Sweet Julia's and Velvetgirl's side in these cases, and I think they should dump these guys and probably report them to the authorities. I feel for them and think they deserve better than these losers. My point is that it might help for them to do a little introspection while they are at it also. That's good to know. They definitely need to do some introspection. Hanging on to a relationship that is gradually destroying you is very unhealthy.
zman Posted October 14, 2003 Posted October 14, 2003 Originally posted by Lurker It's not my personal perception of what a mother figure should be. Psychology will tell you that when men are looking for mother figures, these are the kinds of qualities they look for in a woman. Are you a psychologist? I think your statement above is 100% BS. You're jumping to conclusions, zman. The fact that SweetJulia and VelvetGirl are dating THESE men who happen to be younger does not mean that they are ONLY attracted to younger men. Now you are putting words into my mounth. I didn't use the word "ONLY". You seem to be trapped in either/or thinking. Either something is totally right or totally wrong. It's either black, or white. Someone is either an evil, sick criminal, or a pure, innocent victim. You're either with us, or against us. No middle ground, no gray area. I happen to see things in infinate shades of gray, with good and bad, right and wrong being relative most of the time. Of course this often gets me into trouble with absolutist, judgemental thinkers such as yourself, who often cannot comprehend my point of view or think that my way of thinking is somehow immoral. It's strange, yes, but why should we expect rationality from a sick mind? See my rant about either/or thinking above. I understand what you're trying to say, Zman...I just don't really agree. If a side affect of dating women much older than oneself is becoming sexually obsessed with young girls, wouldn't all men who date older women get that sickness? You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. Now you are the one leaping to conclusions. You are misinterpreting what I said. I am not saying that there is a cause and effect relationship between dating an older woman and suddenly becoming obsessed about young girls. I don't know exactly what is going on here. I'm not a psychologist. Maybe these guys subconsiously wanted their older woman girlfriends to find their porn and get upset and disappointed in them, just like their mothers were frequently upset and disappointed in them. Maybe they feel guilty about it and want someone to punish them for it. Maybe they sought out older women girlfriends in order to try to run away from and deny their own obsession with young girls. Who knows? But none of this speculation means that I think ALL relationships where the man is much younger than the woman are in some way unhealthy. If you can't see and understand this, then we can't have a rational conversation about this because you'll constantly be trying to interpret my shades of gray thinking into either/or terms. See my signature below. I bet you don't agree with it!
velvetgirl Posted October 18, 2003 Posted October 18, 2003 My B/F was into child porn before we met and I do believe it has nothing to do with the age gap between us. He and I were in other relationships when we met. I was married to someone the same age as myself and he was with someone a year younger then himself. I am not only into younger men and it took me a while to be ok with the age gap between us. When men look at, or are into child porn, it has nothing to do with the women they are with, or how often they have sex and whether or not the women are fulfilling their needs sexually. These men have self - esteem and intimacy issues. At some point in their lives they were either sexually abused or could not form healthy normal mother son relationships therefore the intimacy issues. They may have created fantasy situations as they were growing up in order to survive and feel loved so they escaped into this fantasy world to get intimacy. My B/F figured out that he was trying to push me away with his behaviour and realized he had done this in all his other relationships. Growing up he had a mother who did not pay much attention to him and felt rejected. He probably found comfort in creating a fantasy world to get his needs met. I agree with all of you saying leave the guy if he still looks at child porn and continues to lie about it. I also think that if he can admit to it and ask for help, why not help? In Sweet Julia's case it sounds like he is still hiding and lying about his interest in child porn. My boyfriend said the same things, " That it comes in bunches when you download, and the files are mislabelled." I bought that for a while because I gave him the benefit of the doubt but what he didn't know was that every time he downloaded a movie clip into media player it kept a record of the titles even when he deleted the clips. This is how I was able to stop being in denial of his problem. Almost all the titles were underage clips so I knew that he was not looking at adult porn. I copied the titles and one day decided to check and see if some of these were mislabelled and they were not. I was horrified and felt sick to my stomach. I knew at this point I had to either leave or try to help. So I did my research and compiled evidence so he could not just blow it off again. It worked he could not deny the evidence. This was back in April and so far I'm hopeful but it does not work this way with everyone. He admitted to the problem so therefore he is on the way to recovery. He has not looked at any child porn and is communicating and working on the intimacy issues. So for those of you that think it's about us females your wrong it's not or about our self- esteem. I am a strong female who is 37 in a relationship with a 28; year old male and I don't look or act, like an older woman. I actually look 25 and in great shape physically and mentally. I don't act like a mother figure or place any rules in any relationship and I respect a person’s individuality and don't agree with censoring. It's about him, plain and simple. Either they admit it and get help, or they ruin the relationship. In this case if your boyfriend is not admitting it and you strongly suspect he is into child porn, chances are, you are probably right. There is no life with someone like that because you will spend all your time wondering if this will cross into real life or not. You will waste precious time worrying about him and losing your self. You need to focus on what brings you joy in life and focus on dreams and goals and healthy relationships with others. You need to ask questions of yourself and why this is taking up part of your life. What is it you are trying to avoid in your life by keeping busy with his problem? I did a lot of soul searching on this one and figured out a lot things about myself. It's easier to blame someone else for goals not met or dreams not followed. So if it can be fixed help fix it, if not move forward with your life because this is poison and it will destroy you if you let it.
kittah Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Well, I recently found searches done by my fiance on his comp for 'very young porn' and 'wee young' 'young cuties' When I seen this I was so distressed I know it was typed in cause the auto complete was one. When I came across this it was evening, I was in his computer room and he was away at the time. Originally I wasent looking for anything but as I went to type in something in the search it auto completed for me.....I just sat there horrified. I sat there..horrified, I did not move, I coulden't breathe. In that instent everything I thought I knew was lost, and time felt like it had stopped. What a miserable feeling..this is not like drugs or alcohol, this is in the mind..how do you 'fix' this? 'Cuties' Everyone has there most often used words or signature words, that was his. I had to breathe..I stood up tried to fight back the tears and called a cab. I gathered 2 garbage bags and threw all my stuff in them...I was out the door. When I had left, I left the auto complete on..so when he would come back he'll have seen what I seen and realize..( I also swooshed some papers off his desk for dramatic effect) *lol* Seriosly though I thought he would call right away. He dident, I waited days...DAYS, WHY the heck dident he call!?!??! Finally I called him. He was just like "Why did you just jump to conclusions?" Umm excuse me..wtf.. It turns out he claims he had friends over and one of them was on his comp and he searched these things before my fiance kicked him off. Am I gulable? Or am I just fricken dumb He SWEARS on everything (Ive made him) that it wasent him. It eats at me. It's all I think about. Ive been seeing him for 3 yrs, I'm 21 he's 33. I don't know what to do..I need some advice. I'm basically just wondering...What would your initial reactions be upon finding this? How would you handle this (belief him or not) I Have other people who like me, and I have alot of life ahead of me, I don't want to waste my time thowing everything away for somthing that can't be fixed. At the same same time I don't want to throw 3 years away. I'm hurt bad..
moimeme Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 You really need to ask before you accuse. He has a pretty good excuse for what happened. If you have found him to be generally trustworthy, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
kittah Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Would another guy do that though? come on his comp and type up those things? I cant imagine one of my girlfriends doing that.
dyermaker Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 The friend excuse is weak and overused. Ask him to procure the friend, and demand an admission from the friend.
kittah Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 How would I go about doing this? (he also claims he's not friends with this guy anymore) Also, would the other guy really admit to doing it? I'm sorry my mind is just plagued with these thoughts and feelings..just like the other girls, It's really no way to live.
dyermaker Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 If I was a pervert, I'd blame it on my friend whom I'm no longer friends with and thus my story is unverifiable. He should really be a man about it, he was busted.
moimeme Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 There is a critical principle of justice; one that someone who hopes to be a lawyer needs to take to heart: a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Why would his friend do that? Because the guy doesn't have a computer at home. Because he didn't want to use his own computer so he wouldn't leave that junk on it for his own family to find. For any number of reasons. Give the bf the benefit of the doubt. Is he generally honest? You can always check up on him another time, if you're that worried. Computers retain those stupid auto-complete things for ages.
kittah Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Yes, he is generally honest. I have found stuff on his computer before (porn stuff) but I know **** like that can accidently pop up or whatever, But How can I prove him guilty or innocent?
dyermaker Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme There is a critical principle of justice; one that someone who hopes to be a lawyer needs to take to heart: a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Moimeme, if I was representing him in a court of law, I would consider the principles of criminal justice. However, as an unemployed, objective reader, his story sounds like crap, and doesn't sit well with me--it's characteristic of a lie, both in content and delivery. For the record, your Honor, I also think OJ did it. Also, AutoComplete doesn't result from popups, it results from actually typing words into the form.
moimeme Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 I'm positive OJ did it. Nobody should have ignored that DNA evidence. Kittah, you may not be able to prove it this time. Keep an eye on him. See if he's dishonest in other ways. See if he shuts off or changes his screen when you come into the room. Be watchful. Either you'll see more suspicious things or you will not.
kittah Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 I know..and thats why it's so distressing! But it was typed out several times on different search engines, but no history of any sites or anything. Only the auto complete.
dyermaker Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme I'm positive OJ did it. Nobody should have ignored that DNA evidence. Ahh, so it's possible to be proven innocent but still guilty? If the friend did it, he wouldn't have bothered to cover his tracks. But there's no history of it, so the history was cleared--from multiple domains. When he did it, he neglected to clear the AutoComplete. When you found it, he took several days to formulate a story, and finally called you with an iron-clad alibi. His 'friend' did it, and he's no longer friends with the guy. How dare you make such irrational conclusions? Moimeme would have you treat this as a criminal investigation. Leave that to the police force, you're a human being, and you've got every right to feel betrayed--his story sucks. I can't prove that he did it, but if I were you, I wouldn't have to.
moimeme Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 to be proven innocent He wasn't proven innocent. The proof pointed to 'guilty'. The jury chose to accept a trumped-up irrational and improbable tale of conspiracy. I watched the trial; I was doing my MA paper at the time and it provided a diversion between chapters. But there's no history of it so the history was cleared--from multiple domains Nobody said that. Facts not in evidence, your Honour. I can't prove that he did it, but if I were you, I wouldn't have to If I were your bf, and I found something I thought skanky on your computer, you'd want me to ask you what happened and believe you if I told the truth. You'd think me pretty unfair if you ditched me without proof of your accusations. One hopes we extend to others the fairness we expect them to extend to us.
dyermaker Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme He wasn't proven innocent. The proof pointed to 'guilty'. The jury chose to accept a trumped-up irrational and improbable tale of conspiracy. I watched the trial; I was doing my MA paper at the time and it provided a diversion between chapters. You were doing your MA paper at the time, so you weren't a member of the jury. The jury determines the legal consequences of the presentation of proof. The jury determined that he was not guilty of the murders. Ergo, legally, he was proven not guilty. But there's no history of it so the history was cleared--from multiple domains Nobody said that. Facts not in evidence, your Honour. Overruled, Counselor. She said that the AutoComplete was there, but the search pages that came up were not. "But it was typed out several times on different search engines, but no history of any sites or anything." AutoComplete is a technology that only stores records of things typed in a form and submitted. If it's in autocomplete, it's been submitted in that form. If it was submitted in that form, there would be a history of the searches. One hopes we extend to others the fairness we expect them to extend to us. Plenty of people are hurt by this philosophy, such is life when we treat human conflict like a courtroom.
moimeme Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 there would be a history of the searches. Depending on the settings. You can set your history to clear daily. I have no idea how the auto-complete clears, or if it does. proven 'judged' is not the same as 'proven' Plenty of people are hurt by this philosophy Hurt by the philosophy of fairness? Hello? What ought we be if not fair, pray tell?
dyermaker Posted February 24, 2004 Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme Plenty of people are hurt by this philosophy Hurt by the philosophy of fairness? Hello? What ought we be if not fair, pray tell? No, fair idealist, hurt by the naive philosophy of needing proof in personal matters, and giving the benefit of the doubt to everyone. She doesn't fully trust him, and she shouldn't have to. If she were a simpson jurist, she'd have to take into account all sides of the evidence. She's not though, she's her own person, and she can assess whether or not she believes a story that, in my opinion, of which anyone who reads my post is entitled to, wouldn't fool a kindergarten teacher.
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