I would like to understand...

[Ladyjane14]

I do not think that GEL is one of the OW's on this forum who revels in it...JMHO.

 

I don't either. :bunny:

If I did, I wouldn't bother posting with her.

[herenow]

I just find it unimaginably sad that people are willing to live with themselves that way and not want better.

 

I agree with this. That is why I'm always amazed when an OW says that a BW has no self esteem when she gives her H a second chance. Where is the self esteem of a woman that has an affair with a MM?

[outofdarkness]

Very.... when it comes to choosing actions that are detrimental to the lives of other people. It lacks empathy. It lacks respect.

 

I can see how a person might form an emotional attachment to an inappropriate person, particularly when they're being fed a pretty good 'woe-is-me' tale.

 

I can even understand how a very young and inexperienced person would be vulnerable to strong feelings of sympathy which might undermine their judgment.

 

But I do NOT understand why an otherwise mature person would continue to engage in an action which is so massively destructive to other people... not for ANY reason. And I certainly don't understand why they would feel the need to form alliances or join factions in order to promote or support it.

Well, I do agree w/ you, but this is the OW/OM forum..Therefore, they DO come here for support..I don't like or agree w/ A's for any reason, nor do I believe that any A is an accident, I am in complete agreement that both the W AND the OW are lied to repeatedly...The MM's situation is most often completely misrepresented so that he can have things HIS way...What he wants when he want it...There are ALWAYS exceptions to any rule, and I am very aware of this, but for the MOST part, MM's will lie to both sides so that they can have the very best of both worlds...

[Cliche]

This question before us isn't about the MM/MW who elects to cheat. It's about the OM/OW who elects to cheat with them, and how they justify their rationale.

 

You can take potshots at me if you want, call me a hater, whatever. But it won't make me wrong.

It's one thing to mess up, it's something wholly different to adopt 'the mess' as right and just.

 

The best answer we seem to have had so far is that OM/OW don't think about what they're doing. In fact, they actively supply an almost endless array of excuses to themselves and others for doing it. I think maybe they just don't want to believe that what they do makes them bad people.

 

But you know what?... in my opinion it really does. Past the point where you know what you're doing is wrong, it becomes a willful act... a choice, a decision to continue down a destructive path and to embrace that which inflicts pain upon others.

 

It's not a "mistake" once you've become educated and witnessed the devastation caused by adultery. Pointing the finger at the MM/MW-cheater can't offer any absolution to the OM/OW. We all make our own choices after all. Nobody's put a gun to anybody's head here.

 

I just find it unimaginably sad that people are willing to live with themselves that way and not want better.

 

You know what is really empowering? When we all finally learn that our happiness is not someone else's responsibility, and neither is our pain. It all begins and ends with ourselves. Truth be told, we're all we have.

[herenow]

Well, I do agree w/ you, but this is the OW/OM forum..Therefore, they DO come here for support..I don't like or agree w/ A's for any reason, nor do I believe that any A is an accident, I am in complete agreement that both the W AND the OW are lied to repeatedly...The MM's situation is most often completely misrepresented so that he can have things HIS way...What he wants when he want it...There are ALWAYS exceptions to any rule, and I am very aware of this, but for the MOST part, MM's will lie to both sides so that they can have the very best of both worlds...

 

OOD, you know how much I like you, so don't take this the wrong way, but if you feel this way about OW, why did you start this thread?

[sadbuttrue]

This question before us isn't about the MM/MW who elects to cheat. It's about the OM/OW who elects to cheat with them, and how they justify their rationale.

 

You can take potshots at me if you want, call me a hater, whatever. But it won't make me wrong.

It's one thing to mess up, it's something wholly different to adopt 'the mess' as right and just.

 

The best answer we seem to have had so far is that OM/OW don't think about what they're doing. In fact, they actively supply an almost endless array of excuses to themselves and others for doing it. I think maybe they just don't want to believe that what they do makes them bad people.

 

But you know what?... in my opinion it really does. Past the point where you know what you're doing is wrong, it becomes a willful act... a choice, a decision to continue down a destructive path and to embrace that which inflicts pain upon others.

 

It's not a "mistake" once you've become educated and witnessed the devastation caused by adultery. Pointing the finger at the MM/MW-cheater can't offer any absolution to the OM/OW. We all make our own choices after all. Nobody's put a gun to anybody's head here.

 

I just find it unimaginably sad that people are willing to live with themselves that way and not want better.

 

ladyjane, saying that we are bad people because of our R with MM is a very generalizing. it is like saying that all people who have abortions are bad people. i dont agree with abortion either, but i do not think that i have the right to say they are bad for their actions. i do not know their circumstances.

 

who is to say that we dont want better? i do, but life without him right now just does not seem "better" to me. i do not put all the blame on MM, i realize my part in this, but i do not take the majority of the responsibility for what he has done to his W. that is his concern, not mine.

[outofdarkness]

I think is all about the MM, his needs and whatever he is missing that is causing him to have an affair instead of facing his problems and the problems in his marriage. I don't think it has anything to do with the BW or the OW. There is no deeper level other that the problems deep inside the MM. JMO

YEAHHHH!!! someone finally hit the nail on the head...The MM spearhead the whole thing...It's me, me, me.....

[Cliche]

Cliche,

 

I was just giving examples of the kinds of things that I have read. Its not one person, its a collection of things said on boards that I have read. Many OW don't feel this way, but many do. Many see the whole A as some sort of cosmic competition for them to finally get that "happily ever after" that they missed in another R, be it a failed marriage or a broken engagement, or maybe they never even had a real R before the MM.

 

So, not pointing fingers, just stating what I have learned about the opinion some OW have of the W to keep things going.

 

Thanks for clarifying, NID. It didn't seem representative of most of what I've seen the OWs on this board say, nor of how I know I've characterized his W, but I agree that there may be some OWs who choose to demonize the W in this manner.

[NoIDidn't]

I understand what you are saying NID, but I think that hating the OW in my case would be a true waste of time and energy. She is not worth any emotion at all. I made the choice to use my time and energy to better my life. If that meant that my marriage had to end so that I could be happy, so be it. If that meant that my H would leave me for an OW, so be it. Neither of those happened, but I didn't feel that she was important enough to be any part of the equation. So, I made her insignificant, and that worked for me. That doesn't mean that it will work for every situation, so I respect your opinion.

 

HN

 

No OW hating going on over here. Besides calling her one time for a 40 second phone call, I only dealt with my H and myself. She really wasn't worth the thought (and I don't mean that maliciously), but my problem initially was that I thought she was innocent entirely and was a victim too. She was not. She had choices of whether to bask in the attention of a MM or not.

 

Just noting that I didn't think of the OW as an active participant until I read the boards, that's all. I now know differently.

[outofdarkness]

but you see, the MM is with the OW or else, we wouldnt be OW. maybe he is not leaving his family for us in every case, but he does come to us for some reason. and dont say it is all about sex. i do not believe that is the case in the majority of these situations, it has more to do with connecting on a deeper level.

I do agree that not all A's are just about sex...I have said before and will say again...I would MUCH rather my H have a one night stand or an A just for the sex, then a deep EA where there is a very strong connection and feelings involved...There was one A that my H had where I had a really strong hunch that feelings were involved..It was NOT the 10 year A that I have spoken so often of on LS, it was the very last A that happened for a few months prior to D day..To this day, it still haunts me...

[herenow]

HN

 

No OW hating going on over here. Besides calling her one time for a 40 second phone call, I only dealt with my H and myself. She really wasn't worth the thought (and I don't mean that maliciously), but my problem initially was that I thought she was innocent entirely and was a victim too. She was not. She had choices of whether to bask in the attention of a MM or not.

 

Just noting that I didn't think of the OW as an active participant until I read the boards, that's all. I now know differently.

 

Got it, you know I luv ya!

 

Gotta go, hope everyone has a great night!

[outofdarkness]

Thanks for clarifying, NID. It didn't seem representative of most of what I've seen the OWs on this board say, nor of how I know I've characterized his W, but I agree that there may be some OWs who choose to demonize the W in this manner.

Yes, and we all know who they are by now! I was just hoping to somehow gain a greater understanding of WHY these particular OW's feel this way about us....This forum is helping me tremendously w/ that...

[GreenEyedLady]

GEL

 

I answered your questions, but they weren't directed at you. Just keeping the convo going.

 

But, your response is generalizing too much. Who said anything about not being willing to compromise? Its apparently okay for the MM not to compromise, but the W has these hoops to jump through to keep HIM happy. All I ask is what about the W? Why aren't her feelings or desires for a happy outcome in her M being considered? Why is she seen as an object for HIS pleasure?

 

I was just showing HER humanity and maturity in contrast to the MM obvious lack of both in expecting everything and giving nothing.

 

I was generalizing because you were...And pretty much your response was I don't have to do anything I don't want to...I don't care about his fantasies etc...That's not compromising...And that's why I changed the wording after the first sentence so it wasn't like it was directed personally at you...

 

And it is about both people's needs, and the MM DOES need to compromise too...I agree with that, a successful R depends on GIVE and TAKE; not just one person giving and one person taking...But like TC said sometimes someone has to break the stalemate...And most times it probably will be the W because she is the peacekeeper, nurturer, etc...But if the success of the union is the priority then it's really a win-win situation, right?

 

Issues, problems whatever you want to call it, can be worked out, they can be resolved, they can be compromised on as long as both parties are willing...it's when it becomes a power struggle that I think the union really breaks down and it's hard to overcome hurt and prideful feelings, but it's not impossible...

 

And I guess, I don't look at it like myself as a woman, is a man's sexual object or for a man's pleasure...But more the physical side of love is to show my love for him and for our R...and I enjoy it greatly and so I don't see it as being just for him...I see it as for my pleasure...

 

But I understand what you are saying...And from what LJ is always saying is that men and women have emotional/physical needs and the way a man feels loved by his mate is through making love...and the W most often feels loved by her mate when her emotional needs are met...And if the two people in the M reconciled that, there wouldn't be a need for this forum or OW at all...

 

And then we could all go find a single guy!

[outofdarkness]

ladyjane, saying that we are bad people because of our R with MM is a very generalizing. it is like saying that all people who have abortions are bad people. i dont agree with abortion either, but i do not think that i have the right to say they are bad for their actions. i do not know their circumstances.

 

who is to say that we dont want better? i do, but life without him right now just does not seem "better" to me. i do not put all the blame on MM, i realize my part in this, but i do not take the majority of the responsibility for what he has done to his W. that is his concern, not mine.

Well...yeah, it's the MM alright, but to say that you are not partly responsible for the pain that is inflicted on all involved, IMO is totally wrong..

[sadbuttrue]

i asked my friend this question just the other day, "would you rather your husband have meaningless affairs with 20 different women, or a long term one with just one?" at first she said the 20 would be harder to take until she thought about it. either way, i would have a really hard time to continue the R but i can see how the emotional attachment would be harder to deal with as a BS.

 

i am sorry for what you are dealing with OOD.

[outofdarkness]

Gel, I wish you posted more often. You have such exquisite insight. That post was brilliant.

 

 

My marriage failed for many reasons (excepting infidelity, though at the end he could've had an A and I wouldn't have cared a lick). But the biggest problem was the resentment we had for one another. Sometimes I see a lot of that in marriages...resentment over the chores, family time, sex or lack of, roles, work, etc., etc. If that resentment cannot be worked on together and combated, the marriage will fail whether or not an OW/OM is involved.

Yeah, this is definately true!

[Ladyjane14]

You know what is really empowering? When we all finally learn that our happiness is not someone else's responsibility, and neither is our pain. It all begins and ends with ourselves.

 

I agree with the bit about happiness, but if someone chooses to inflict pain upon us... there are some kinds of pain that we can't just refuse receipt on.

 

"Wherever you go... there you are". We all live in our own skins and have to face the mirror each day. Why be someone you don't want to be? Why be the person who inflicts pain at the behest of another?

[outofdarkness]

i asked my friend this question just the other day, "would you rather your husband have meaningless affairs with 20 different women, or a long term one with just one?" at first she said the 20 would be harder to take until she thought about it. either way, i would have a really hard time to continue the R but i can see how the emotional attachment would be harder to deal with as a BS.

 

i am sorry for what you are dealing with OOD.

Yeah, I have found it MUCH easier to get past my thoughts about my H and his 10 year OW together then I have the thoughts of him and the last OW with whom he seemed to have some sort of emotional connection...Whether she was just a listening post, or they were actually in love, it was much more threatening and heartbreaking for me and has made it much more difficult to move on..He STILL protects her and is defensive of her whenever her name is brought up, which is NOT very often anymore, but this was my biggest clue that there was much more to this particular A then the others..The way he spoke of the 10 year OW was horrible....like she was nothing more then someone who gave good h---...I felt really embarrassed for HIM and horrible for her.....

[outofdarkness]

What is up with the hyperbole all over the place?

 

Really, I doubt many OWs feel this way about the wife. I sure don't and never have. I don't think she's a monster. She seems rather nice. I just think that her and MM did not have much of a bond for whatever reasons of incompatibility. Sometimes marriages just don't work, whether it was the wrong two people to start with or they grew apart. I have no interest in demonizing his W. I even worry about her happiness. I just don't think she'll find it with him (or he with her).

Then, like I told my sister before she actually started her A many years ago, when everyone knew her M was in trouble...GET OUT NOW! Don't do something that you will forever regret that could potentially and most likely WILL hurt everyone involved...To this day, I STILL don't understand why she just didn't leave the M and THEN build a life w/ her OM...He was M too, but very unhappy..They are together now but only see their kids once a year due to their A and the evidence that was presented in court once their D's did finally happen.

[sadbuttrue]

10 yrs is a long time to stay with someone just for "good h---" in my opinion. but your H treats you so terribly i couldnt begin to wonder about his logic.

[Cliche]

I agree with the bit about happiness, but if someone chooses to inflict pain upon us... there are some kinds of pain that we can't just refuse receipt on.

 

"Wherever you go... there you are". We all live in our own skins and have to face the mirror each day. Why be someone you don't want to be? Why be the person who inflicts pain at the behest of another?

I can't speak for all As, but in MMs marriage, the pain was there long before I got there. And, as it turns out, I think I may have been the proverbial straw that finally is ending years of pain. Even though I suspect she was a little bit pissed on d-day, I'm pretty sure it compares not a wit to the years of inertia within a bad marriage.

 

I tend to think most As are symptoms and not causes. I think the As force the spouses to confront the pain that was already there for months/years whatever, and decide a course of action from there on how to fix whatever it is that is broken...whether they do that together or seperately.

 

(I would like to add that sometimes it is just the cheating spouse that is broken, not the marital relationship...that is a whole other category that I just don't know much about, but I suspect much more difficult for a BS to deal with.)

 

So, anyway, I am only human. I inflict pain on many people I don't mean to harm. I know I've hurt my parents over the years even though they are so dear to me. I know I've hurt my children even though I'd die to save them from pain. Over the course of my adult life, I have hurt friends, and sometimes lost treasured friendships due to a momentary lapse of judgment. I know I've hurt MM. I know I may have hurt his W. But I am not any more a "pain inflictor" than any other human being. So I carry no more or less guilt than you.

[outofdarkness]

i agree with what GEL said. an OW is a symptom of a bigger problem. the focus should be placed on the original problem, not us. you can try to treat the symptom but if you dont cure the disease, chances are it will keep coming back.

 

i am the mother of four children, i have all the responsibilities of raising a family, only i do it alone. i still find the time to be with MM and be there for him when he needs me. i listen to him, i love him, and i adore him. i dont think using family obligations is a good excuse for why you cant make more time for your H's.

Well, I agree but in some cases, like mine, while the A's were going on...He didn't WANT me to make more time w/ him..He wanted to be w/ the OW...Hard as I tried, he just wasn't interested...

[NoIDidn't]

I was generalizing because you were...And pretty much your response was I don't have to do anything I don't want to...I don't care about his fantasies etc...That's not compromising...And that's why I changed the wording after the first sentence so it wasn't like it was directed personally at you...

 

And it is about both people's needs, and the MM DOES need to compromise too...I agree with that, a successful R depends on GIVE and TAKE; not just one person giving and one person taking...But like TC said sometimes someone has to break the stalemate...And most times it probably will be the W because she is the peacekeeper, nurturer, etc...But if the success of the union is the priority then it's really a win-win situation, right?

 

Issues, problems whatever you want to call it, can be worked out, they can be resolved, they can be compromised on as long as both parties are willing...it's when it becomes a power struggle that I think the union really breaks down and it's hard to overcome hurt and prideful feelings, but it's not impossible...

 

And I guess, I don't look at it like myself as a woman, is a man's sexual object or for a man's pleasure...But more the physical side of love is to show my love for him and for our R...and I enjoy it greatly and so I don't see it as being just for him...I see it as for my pleasure...

 

But I understand what you are saying...And from what LJ is always saying is that men and women have emotional/physical needs and the way a man feels loved by his mate is through making love...and the W most often feels loved by her mate when her emotional needs are met...And if the two people in the M reconciled that, there wouldn't be a need for this forum or OW at all...

 

And then we could all go find a single guy!

 

But was what I said wrong? Do I have to do that which I don't want to do? Just kidding. But I do have some fantasies that I know for a fact that he isn't willing to meet or even entertain...unfortunately.

 

I do understand what you are saying, and it becomes part of the cycle. The stalemate. The sticking point. But its not one person's job to break it. Its both of theirs. I am the kind of person to break stalemates and compromise over and over again. But there comes a point when compromise becomes acting like doormat. Its both of their job because the other has to respond to the compromise in like manner, not with all of their guards still up and eyeing the compromiser with suspicions of ill-intent.

 

It seems that we are really saying similar things, just from different view points. I just think that the person cheating needs to compromise just as much. You can't put demands on someone that you've hurt in that way. I think that many women enjoy sex just as much as men (I know I do), but I've never seen a man asked what he does to add to his spouse's enjoyment and BWs are always accused of not caring about his sexual needs. This coming from a woman that was deprived for the first two years of her M because of HIS hang ups. According to many here, and even my H, I had a right to cheat but didn't.

 

I really do wish that it was as simple as just meeting each other's needs in a M, though. Sadly, its not. People cheat even when their needs are being met. Many do so because they are bored with the efficiency of their mates meeting and anticipating their needs. Then, what is the betrayed to do when everything really was *perfect*?

[outofdarkness]

I found just the opposite. I wasn't giving the OW enough power. I blamed the MM totally and thought of her as some naive idiot that was outwitted by a master player.

 

But from reading this forum and others like it, I have found that the OW has plans on how to keep the man's attention and undermine his W and marriage. She takes notes on what he says about his W and uses them against this so-called inconsequential person. She makes sure to be the anti-W in every way, whether or not sex was ever involved. She makes the W the enemy and then lies to herself and says that the W doesn't matter.

 

But I do agree, OOD, that you will never understand the mindset that forgets about the humanity of the person that's going to be devastated upon discovery of the deception. The BW is not a real person to them. But an evil, unappreciative, had the nerve to gain weight after getting married, actually raises the kids, has other things on her mind besides effing her H constantly, doesn't take the time to look good for him, old and aging MONSTER that doesn't have feelings. How can anyone not hate such a monster or act cold and callous towards that construct of their imagination?

Well...yes, I will agree w/ this too...The two OW's that I DID speak w/ were told things about the M and myself that were totally false...Sometimes, we ALL have selective hearing....It's just human nature...IMO..

[outofdarkness]

1. We listen, but we are not interested in helping our Hs live a fantasy. We have our own needs to consider as well. What about him being our OM?

 

2. We are not girls anymore. We are women that have likely matured and changed over the years.

 

3. Its not an excuse if you have a man that takes out the trash once a year and thinks that's progress. Besides, being in an A, its easy to forget that there are actually real responsibilities in a M that don't simply involve his feelings or his desires. If he wants a clean, efficient home, he must do his part.

 

4. I am not sure what to say about this one. People in As place a premium on "being happy", but not on "being right". If a MP would stop making others responsible for their happiness, then most As wouldn't happen.

Yes co dependence is a HUGE problem in many R's...