GreenEyedLady Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 It seems that we are really saying similar things' date=' just from different view points. I just think that the person cheating needs to compromise just as much. You can't put demands on someone that you've hurt in that way. I think that many women enjoy sex just as much as men (I know I do), but I've never seen a man asked what he does to add to his spouse's enjoyment and BWs are always accused of not caring about his sexual needs. [/quote'] We are saying the same thing...and everything I've said, I mean as a preventative measure, before someone steps outside the M...Because once you cheat, all bets are off, IMO...And you know all those MM that go back to their W's groveling are doing some MAJOR a**kissing...And I can't say that they don't deserve it...:bunny: Link to post Share on other sites
Cliche Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Then, like I told my sister before she actually started her A many years ago, when everyone knew her M was in trouble...GET OUT NOW! Don't do something that you will forever regret that could potentially and most likely WILL hurt everyone involved...To this day, I STILL don't understand why she just didn't leave the M and THEN build a life w/ her OM...He was M too, but very unhappy..They are together now but only see their kids once a year due to their A and the evidence that was presented in court once their D's did finally happen. Oh, I 100% agree with you logically, OOD. It makes so much more sense to just end the marriage and then move on. But sometimes life just ain't logical. And so we're all stuck in some ****. But really, I think divorces hurt, especially when one spouse doesn't want it, no matter under what circumstances it ends....the end of my marriage sucked rocks and there was no infidelity. The end of a marriage is just not a happy time. Frankly, though, in MM and his wife's case, it appears that he was being honest when he told me his marriage truly ended years ago. They are deconstructing their life now, but while not pleasant, it really is lacking the drama I'm used to seeing during separation and divorce. I can't for the life of me figure out why they didn't do this years ago since it appears to be what they both wanted. But hell, if we all understood each other, there'd be world peace and all that good stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
sadbuttrue Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Well, I agree but in some cases, like mine, while the A's were going on...He didn't WANT me to make more time w/ him..He wanted to be w/ the OW...Hard as I tried, he just wasn't interested... OOD, like i have said before, your H seems extremely disrespectful of you and i just dont understand him. i didnt mean to imply that you didnt try. some men just cant see what they have right in front of them. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 But from reading this forum and others like it' date=' I have found that the OW has [i']plans[/i] on how to keep the man's attention and undermine his W and marriage. She takes notes on what he says about his W and uses them against this so-called inconsequential person. She makes sure to be the anti-W in every way, whether or not sex was ever involved. She makes the W the enemy and then lies to herself and says that the W doesn't matter. What person who is falling in love with another new person doesn't use information that is shared about their past in their favour. If two people meet and one person complians that their ex was too overvbearing and controlling, you would tend to want to watch your p's and q's in every sense as to not give your partner any indication that you are trying to do those things. If he is telling you it didn't work for him in the past, only a foolish person would go ahead and do the very things they say they don't like. everyone has a strategy when they fall in love, it's called playing the mating game. Some people do it more strategically than others but we ALL do it. Was reading OW forums really your first exposure to this phenomenon??? What a lot of OW do is offer these men what they lack at home at the time the A takes place. A lot of the time it is as simple as attention, admiration and affection not expecting much in return. But of course in return these men give a lot more than they even thought they would be capable of giving, simply because they are so starved of feeling appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 OOD, I know what you are going through and I know how hard it is to understand the mind of an OW. That is how I know that you will never be able to get the answer you are looking for. The reason I came to LS months ago is to find the same insight. What I found was that I was giving the OW too much power. The stories I read here, ones from OW who had been hurt and were looking for their own answers and ones from OW who just wanted the MM at any cost, made me realize that as a BW, I couldn't relate and I needed to accept the fact that no one was going to give me an answer that I could understand. With that, the OW became (as I have said oh so many times) irrelevant. When I let go of any feelings toward the OW, I was able to focus on myself, my husband and fixing the problems in my marriage that caused this mess in the first place. I have to say that letting go of the OW and any feelings I had towards her was the best thing I did for my sanity and my marriage. Thanks...I really needed to hear that..It is sooo true...hard to accept, but true. Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 What person who is falling in love with another new person doesn't use information that is shared about their past in their favour. If two people meet and one person complians that their ex was too overvbearing and controlling, you would tend to want to watch your p's and q's in every sense as to not give your partner any indication that you are trying to do those things. If he is telling you it didn't work for him in the past, only a foolish person would go ahead and do the very things they say they don't like. everyone has a strategy when they fall in love, it's called playing the mating game. Some people do it more strategically than others but we ALL do it. Was reading OW forums really your first exposure to this phenomenon??? What a lot of OW do is offer these men what they lack at home at the time the A takes place. A lot of the time it is as simple as attention, admiration and affection not expecting much in return. But of course in return these men give a lot more than they even thought they would be capable of giving, simply because they are so starved of feeling appreciated. well...don't really agree w/ this..respectfully of course...The A creates a very tense and miserable home life..I believe it is a myth that in some A's, what the W doesn't know won't hurt her and possibly might even HELP her...In SOME cases, mine at least, I tried and tried and tried and nothing I did or said made any difference while my H was involved w/ OW's...In fact in some instances, the harder I tried to appreciate, etc, the more he pulled away.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 OOD, like i have said before, your H seems extremely disrespectful of you and i just dont understand him. i didnt mean to imply that you didnt try. some men just cant see what they have right in front of them. How sweet of you..I'll take that as a compliment...One which I really needed tonight! Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 Oh, I 100% agree with you logically, OOD. It makes so much more sense to just end the marriage and then move on. But sometimes life just ain't logical. And so we're all stuck in some ****. But really, I think divorces hurt, especially when one spouse doesn't want it, no matter under what circumstances it ends....the end of my marriage sucked rocks and there was no infidelity. The end of a marriage is just not a happy time. Frankly, though, in MM and his wife's case, it appears that he was being honest when he told me his marriage truly ended years ago. They are deconstructing their life now, but while not pleasant, it really is lacking the drama I'm used to seeing during separation and divorce. I can't for the life of me figure out why they didn't do this years ago since it appears to be what they both wanted. But hell, if we all understood each other, there'd be world peace and all that good stuff. Lol...you're right on target...We do NOT live in a perfect world, do we? FAR from it... Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 We are saying the same thing...and everything I've said, I mean as a preventative measure, before someone steps outside the M...Because once you cheat, all bets are off, IMO...And you know all those MM that go back to their W's groveling are doing some MAJOR a**kissing...And I can't say that they don't deserve it...:bunny: No...they SURE don't although the perks can be mighty nice...LOL! Link to post Share on other sites
sadbuttrue Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 it was definitely a compliment OOD. from what i know of you, you seem like an extraordinary woman. i wish you could find the happiness you deserve. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I do understand what you are saying' date=' and it becomes part of the cycle. The stalemate. The sticking point. But its not one person's job to break it. Its both of theirs. [/quote'] No that's where you are gravely mistaken and it shows just how deeply enganged you are in the power struggle. In an ideal theoretical situation both people take a new step foward. In reality and in the midst of a power war, that never happens. For as long as you keep fantasizing that it should happen that way the further you will drift from your goal. In athe deep seated power tug of war, it takes ONE person to break the cycle. And it more than likely is going to have to be the woman, simply because we do tend to be the peace keepers. Again, have to think long term gain not immediate gratification. That's where strategy plays a big part. Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 10 yrs is a long time to stay with someone just for "good h---" in my opinion. but your H treats you so terribly i couldnt begin to wonder about his logic. I know, I know..I'm not so stupid to think that more went on then just good h----! I know that he confided in her, spent many days just doing "stuff"...even took our kids...toddlers at the time, on outings w/ her, but it was the way he spoke of her after D day...Like she was a piece of trash under his shoe...It bothered me so much to think that this person that I had devoted my life to and thought the world of would treat someone this way...ANYONE this way... Link to post Share on other sites
sadbuttrue Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I know, I know..I'm not so stupid to think that more went on then just good h----! I know that he confided in her, spent many days just doing "stuff"...even took our kids...toddlers at the time, on outings w/ her, but it was the way he spoke of her after D day...Like she was a piece of trash under his shoe...It bothered me so much to think that this person that I had devoted my life to and thought the world of would treat someone this way...ANYONE this way... OOD he is treating YOU this way!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 well...don't really agree w/ this..respectfully of course...The A creates a very tense and miserable home life..I believe it is a myth that in some A's, what the W doesn't know won't hurt her and possibly might even HELP her...In SOME cases, mine at least, I tried and tried and tried and nothing I did or said made any difference while my H was involved w/ OW's...In fact in some instances, the harder I tried to appreciate, etc, the more he pulled away.. OOD with all the respect again, you are not the typical situation of a H who strays to run away from problems. Your situation is an exception in and of itself. You have a man who has a severe problem that neither you nor anyone else can fix no matter how much you give or take away from the rel. I don't doubt for a second that you give him everything he needs in this case it is clearly not about your rel/marriage it is about HIM and his pathology. Now the symbiotic nature of your union and I don't mean that in an insulting way, is something to consider an perhaps even analyze should you wish to do so, but I don't see you being able to do anything more for your marriage short of telling him you give him your blessing to sleep around or leave him. I don't see any other solution unfortunately. My comment was for those people who had a spouse who cheated in a bad part of the marriage or when there were thoughts of seperation due to extreme unhappiness. Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 OOD he is treating YOU this way!!! oh, yeah..well I can see that when it's in writing and I am writing in the third person...Thanks for pointing it out...For the record...My H has chronic depression and anger issues for which he is now BACK on his meds...I do have to say that he is like a different person!!! I will NOT start to count pills, b/c we are WAY past being teens, but I am now accutely aware of his behavior changes when he stops taking them...I am cautious, leery and very watchful right now...At the same time, I continue to take steps to prepare myself to be self sufficient and comfortable in my own skin and by myself...Thing I have never felt...So, some positive things WILL come out of this...Mabey just for Me, but isn't it about time some good things happen to me in my life??? Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 OOD with all the respect again, you are not the typical situation of a H who strays to run away from problems. Your situation is an exception in and of itself. You have a man who has a severe problem that neither you nor anyone else can fix no matter how much you give or take away from the rel. I don't doubt for a second that you give him everything he needs in this case it is clearly not about your rel/marriage it is about HIM and his pathology. Now the symbiotic nature of your union and I don't mean that in an insulting way, is something to consider an perhaps even analyze should you wish to do so, but I don't see you being able to do anything more for your marriage short of telling him you give him your blessing to sleep around or leave him. I don't see any other solution unfortunately. My comment was for those people who had a spouse who cheated in a bad part of the marriage or when there were thoughts of seperation due to extreme unhappiness. Yeah, I see that..Thanks for the clarification...I do know my situation is very unique and extreme, but I want you all to know how much I appreciate the effort to help me... Link to post Share on other sites
sadbuttrue Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 you do deserve good things OOD! Link to post Share on other sites
Author outofdarkness Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 For ALL of your posts...I am falling asleep, but I will be back on tomorrow..Blessings and sweet dreams to all! Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 ..At the same time, I continue to take steps to prepare myself to be self sufficient and comfortable in my own skin and by myself...Thing I have never felt...So, some positive things WILL come out of this...Mabey just for Me, but isn't it about time some good things happen to me in my life??? You bet it is!! I am very happy for you and for knowing that you are taking steps towards your own progress. It's about time you started thinking about you and rediscovering just how special you are. It's not easy it is too many years of a life that you know all too well, but we are creatures of habit. What may seem like a big change today in time becomes a habit. It's really amazing how much you will find in yourself once you start looking for it. This is really great news. I mean that sincerely. Link to post Share on other sites
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 OOD with all the respect again, you are not the typical situation of a H who strays to run away from problems. Your situation is an exception in and of itself. You have a man who has a severe problem that neither you nor anyone else can fix no matter how much you give or take away from the rel. I don't doubt for a second that you give him everything he needs in this case it is clearly not about your rel/marriage it is about HIM and his pathology. Now the symbiotic nature of your union and I don't mean that in an insulting way, is something to consider an perhaps even analyze should you wish to do so, but I don't see you being able to do anything more for your marriage short of telling him you give him your blessing to sleep around or leave him. I don't see any other solution unfortunately. My comment was for those people who had a spouse who cheated in a bad part of the marriage or when there were thoughts of seperation due to extreme unhappiness. Just curious, TC, do you believe any of his long term OW realize this? OOD has mentioned the lies that she found that they had been told. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Just curious, TC, do you believe any of his long term OW realize this? OOD has mentioned the lies that she found that they had been told. I really don't know IWWH. It all depends on how far this man has gone to disguise his problem in from of the OW, and given by a few things I have read by OOD in how he has turned things around to make her seem like she was crazy when she would suspect things and a seeing that he is medicated also for depression, men like this become very manipultive and can change their moods as they see fit basically putting on a face in front of one person and another infront of other people. My father was manic depressive and the amount of emotional abuse he has put my mother through in their younger years is unspeakable, and yet he managed to convince other people that he was just fine. It's really hard to say. But I'll tell you one thing anyone who gets to know these types of men long enough can not disregard that there is something wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 But I'll tell you one thing anyone who gets to know these types of men long enough can not disregard that there is something wrong. Maybe, but not sure about that. There is a man with sexual addiction that posted on infidelity. He speaks of dual lives and how know one had a clue who he was in his other life. Infact, one VERY close friend was a Rabbi who he spent alot of time with. This man didn't have OW to speak of but prostitues, but the dual lifestyle where noone would suspect interests me. For men like this, deception IS their GAME. I believe OOD has said before that NO ONE who knows the "family man" would suspect. I just find the psychology of "separate lives" interesting. I'ld like to learn more about it. For most peope deception is exhausting, its curious to me what drives someone who feeds off of it. Link to post Share on other sites
mystic_pizza Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I totally respect your opinion...However, I don't think that anyone here has said that they are alleviated of personal responsibility...Just because we don't advertise how we really feel about it, doesn't mean that we don't think about it...or feel bad about it...Why would we give our true feelings? Then the haters who frequent this forum will just have more ammunition to hammer away with... What I find truly sad about his forum is that it is not real...I know that I for one personally hold back alot...I do not wish to get into a religious debate or moral debate with anyone...I do not wish to defend my actions or my R...And what is sad is that because it is such a BS vs. OW forum, that the BS's out there will not hear the real truth about how OW feel because quite frankly, no one wants to put themselves out there and be ripped apart... BS's are allowed to have their feelings...OW are not...just because you chose a certain road doesn't mean that you are devoid of feeling or empathy, even though that's what you espouse...The truth of the matter is much more complex...And if it makes you and others like you feel better about hating someone you find inferior to yourself, who would do something you would never do, then I guess to each his own... Adultery isn't pretty...and in and of itself is destructive...but it is merely the outward dynamic of what is happening or not happening in the marriage and the people inside it...I mean, if no one broke their marriage vows, then there wouldn't be adultery, would there be? The fact of the matter is that you can't force someone to cheat, just like you can't force a woman to have an affair with a MM... As for women being held to a higher standard, it's just another way of excusing male behavior...Isn't that another way of alleviating personal responsiblity? But I guess we don't want to mention that... IMO if BS's took HN's stance, I think the results would be better...focusing on the OW merely prevents them from looking at the real problems that need to be worked on in the M... In fact, if BS's in general want to have happy healthy M's, why not listen to our stories and be your own H's OW? It's really not that hard...Just be like the girl you were when you met him...And enough of the excuses that I'm tired or you didn't take out the trash etc...Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? But hey, we're not here to help your M are we? Very well said GEL. Link to post Share on other sites
child_of_isis Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Pandering to a man and his ego 24/7 is exhausting. OW's only have to do it for an hour or so a couple of times a week. I also think W's understand that M's are a partnership. It takes 2 to make a marriage work. Most don't believe that it is soley her responsibility to keep the M alive. IMO cheating spouses are always expecting someone else to do all of the work. If that is the kind of person you want to be with in a relationship, so be it. But truley, if the R with your MM does work out...in the end, there is a big likelihood that he will suck the life right out of you with his neediness. "In fact, if BS's in general want to have happy healthy M's, why not listen to our stories and be your own H's OW? " Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 For most peope deception is exhausting, its curious to me what drives someone who feeds off of it. What a conicidence you said that. Yesterday I was saying in my post to OOD here, short of leaving this man or telling him you give him your blessing to sleep around, I don't know what else could actually fix things...I was also going to add but if she DID give him her blessings to go around and have an open marriage not even sure he would enjoy it because part of the sickeness seems the fact that he has to sneak around and cover his lies. I too have a feeling that deception is a big part of his drive. In the example of the man in the Infidelity forum did the Rabbi know as well? Link to post Share on other sites
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