I would like to understand...

[Tomcat33]

Let's face it... if a MM comes up to you and says, "I'm happily married with two kids, a minivan, and a Labrador retriever, but you've got a really nice ass. Let's go"... are you feeling particularly compliant?

 

Ok let's face it. A happily married person has no desire to win over anyone else, they are happily married are not looking for anything else. Unless he is a sex addict like in the case of OOD's H. Some men will cheat regardless but other men cheat because they feel dissatisfied.

 

So let''s take it a step further and just entertain that if a man is dissatisfied at home, he may VERY well be contemplating ending his M. At least that is how a lot of OP allow themselves to fall for the cheater in the first place, they believe it could be a marriage that is on its last legs.

 

At any rate a lot of people cheat when they are dissatisfied in their marriage.

 

If that were untrue then I guess in the happy years of your M as you know it, your H must have cheated back then as well?

[OpenBook]

There are many marriages that survive affairs only to become stronger because both partners are willing to accept their part in the breakdown of the marriage and fix the problems that they have as individuals and as a couple.

 

And I wish I could tell you the number of times I've wanted to write a thank-you note to the W's of the happy MM's I work with. Because they have a great relationship at home, these MM's treat ME well at work. And I don't have to worry about walking a tightrope in rejecting their advances while keeping my job.

 

I have no idea if they've survived infidelity in their M (although I suspect some of them have). I'm just grateful that it's working well now.

[silktricks]

you. The OW is irrelevant to the H-W relationship, nor is she the cause of the breakdown in that relationship. THE OW SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. At least, not in a marriage that was built to last.

That's totally correct. The ow should never have happened. And she had nothing to do with the problems in the marriage before she appeared. Howeve bad those problems may or may not have been though, I can guarantee the problems will worsen when she is involved with the mm.

 

What hn says though is completely accurate in regards to recovery after the affair is over. The ow is irrelevant. Only the married couple have relevancy to recovery of the marriage.

[Ladyjane14]

This is why you will never get it. I don't think you really want an honest answer. You just want to keep pushing the same diatribe down our throats.

 

Clairvoyant now, huh? Shall we refer to you as MadamAnnabelle... seer of other people's motives?

 

If their own spouse has so little respect for their marriage, why should the OM/OW feel the need to respect it?

 

Obviously, and in accordance to your own words... they don't. But since when does one person's foul actions alleviate another of personal responsibility?

[GreenEyedLady]

Clairvoyant now, huh? Shall we refer to you as MadamAnnabelle... seer of other people's motives? Obviously, and in accordance to your own words... they don't. But since when does one person's foul actions alleviate another of personal responsibility?

 

I totally respect your opinion...However, I don't think that anyone here has said that they are alleviated of personal responsibility...Just because we don't advertise how we really feel about it, doesn't mean that we don't think about it...or feel bad about it...Why would we give our true feelings? Then the haters who frequent this forum will just have more ammunition to hammer away with...

 

What I find truly sad about his forum is that it is not real...I know that I for one personally hold back alot...I do not wish to get into a religious debate or moral debate with anyone...I do not wish to defend my actions or my R...And what is sad is that because it is such a BS vs. OW forum, that the BS's out there will not hear the real truth about how OW feel because quite frankly, no one wants to put themselves out there and be ripped apart...

 

BS's are allowed to have their feelings...OW are not...just because you chose a certain road doesn't mean that you are devoid of feeling or empathy, even though that's what you espouse...The truth of the matter is much more complex...And if it makes you and others like you feel better about hating someone you find inferior to yourself, who would do something you would never do, then I guess to each his own...

 

Adultery isn't pretty...and in and of itself is destructive...but it is merely the outward dynamic of what is happening or not happening in the marriage and the people inside it...I mean, if no one broke their marriage vows, then there wouldn't be adultery, would there be? The fact of the matter is that you can't force someone to cheat, just like you can't force a woman to have an affair with a MM...

 

As for women being held to a higher standard, it's just another way of excusing male behavior...Isn't that another way of alleviating personal responsiblity? But I guess we don't want to mention that...

 

IMO if BS's took HN's stance, I think the results would be better...focusing on the OW merely prevents them from looking at the real problems that need to be worked on in the M...

 

In fact, if BS's in general want to have happy healthy M's, why not listen to our stories and be your own H's OW? It's really not that hard...Just be like the girl you were when you met him...And enough of the excuses that I'm tired or you didn't take out the trash etc...Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

 

But hey, we're not here to help your M are we?

[NoIDidn't]

In fact, if BS's in general want to have happy healthy M's, why not listen to our stories and be your own H's OW? It's really not that hard...Just be like the girl you were when you met him...And enough of the excuses that I'm tired or you didn't take out the trash etc...Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

 

 

1. We listen, but we are not interested in helping our Hs live a fantasy. We have our own needs to consider as well. What about him being our OM?

 

2. We are not girls anymore. We are women that have likely matured and changed over the years.

 

3. Its not an excuse if you have a man that takes out the trash once a year and thinks that's progress. Besides, being in an A, its easy to forget that there are actually real responsibilities in a M that don't simply involve his feelings or his desires. If he wants a clean, efficient home, he must do his part.

 

4. I am not sure what to say about this one. People in As place a premium on "being happy", but not on "being right". If a MP would stop making others responsible for their happiness, then most As wouldn't happen.

[NoIDidn't]

What I found was that I was giving the OW too much power.

 

I found just the opposite. I wasn't giving the OW enough power. I blamed the MM totally and thought of her as some naive idiot that was outwitted by a master player.

 

But from reading this forum and others like it, I have found that the OW has plans on how to keep the man's attention and undermine his W and marriage. She takes notes on what he says about his W and uses them against this so-called inconsequential person. She makes sure to be the anti-W in every way, whether or not sex was ever involved. She makes the W the enemy and then lies to herself and says that the W doesn't matter.

 

But I do agree, OOD, that you will never understand the mindset that forgets about the humanity of the person that's going to be devastated upon discovery of the deception. The BW is not a real person to them. But an evil, unappreciative, had the nerve to gain weight after getting married, actually raises the kids, has other things on her mind besides effing her H constantly, doesn't take the time to look good for him, old and aging MONSTER that doesn't have feelings. How can anyone not hate such a monster or act cold and callous towards that construct of their imagination?

[Tomcat33]

I totally respect your opinion...However, I don't think that anyone here has said that they are alleviated of personal responsibility...Just because we don't advertise how we really feel about it, doesn't mean that we don't think about it...or feel bad about it...Why would we give our true feelings? Then the haters who frequent this forum will just have more ammunition to hammer away with...

 

What I find truly sad about his forum is that it is not real...I know that I for one personally hold back alot...I do not wish to get into a religious debate or moral debate with anyone...I do not wish to defend my actions or my R...And what is sad is that because it is such a BS vs. OW forum, that the BS's out there will not hear the real truth about how OW feel because quite frankly, no one wants to put themselves out there and be ripped apart...

 

BS's are allowed to have their feelings...OW are not...just because you chose a certain road doesn't mean that you are devoid of feeling or empathy, even though that's what you espouse...The truth of the matter is much more complex...And if it makes you and others like you feel better about hating someone you find inferior to yourself, who would do something you would never do, then I guess to each his own...

 

Adultery isn't pretty...and in and of itself is destructive...but it is merely the outward dynamic of what is happening or not happening in the marriage and the people inside it...I mean, if no one broke their marriage vows, then there wouldn't be adultery, would there be? The fact of the matter is that you can't force someone to cheat, just like you can't force a woman to have an affair with a MM...

 

As for women being held to a higher standard, it's just another way of excusing male behavior...Isn't that another way of alleviating personal responsiblity? But I guess we don't want to mention that...

 

IMO if BS's took HN's stance, I think the results would be better...focusing on the OW merely prevents them from looking at the real problems that need to be worked on in the M...

 

In fact, if BS's in general want to have happy healthy M's, why not listen to our stories and be your own H's OW? It's really not that hard...Just be like the girl you were when you met him...And enough of the excuses that I'm tired or you didn't take out the trash etc...Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

 

But hey, we're not here to help your M are we?

 

BRAVO GEL I'm speachless because you have said it all!!! I think you speak for many of us.

[GreenEyedLady]

1. We listen, but we are not interested in helping our Hs live a fantasy. We have our own needs to consider as well. What about him being our OM?

 

2. We are not girls anymore. We are women that have likely matured and changed over the years.

 

3. Its not an excuse if you have a man that takes out the trash once a year and thinks that's progress. Besides, being in an A, its easy to forget that there are actually real responsibilities in a M that don't simply involve his feelings or his desires. If he wants a clean, efficient home, he must do his part.

 

4. I am not sure what to say about this one. People in As place a premium on "being happy", but not on "being right". If a MP would stop making others responsible for their happiness, then most As wouldn't happen.

 

Well, then I guess if you don't care about compromising in your M then that's between you and your H...And it shouldn't be surprising when someone finds out that their H cheated because his needs weren't being met...

 

I'm not absolving a man of doing his part in a M...both partners play an important in that...but if showing your H a little attention and physical affection will keep him coming home only to you, why wouldn't you just do it?

[Tomcat33]

But I do agree' date=' OOD, that you will never understand the mindset that forgets about the humanity of the person that's going to be devastated upon discovery of the deception. The BW is not a real person to them. But an evil, unappreciative, had the nerve to gain weight after getting married, actually raises the kids, has other things on her mind besides effing her H constantly, doesn't take the time to look good for him, old and aging MONSTER that doesn't have feelings. How can anyone not hate such a monster or act cold and callous towards that construct of their imagination?[/quote']

 

 

Nah it's not the BSs in our cases that we think of in that way, if is just the dynamic that develops here that helps to bring out the worst in the OP. People dislike ugly people, not the concepts of who they represent to be.

[herenow]

I found just the opposite. I wasn't giving the OW enough power. I blamed the MM totally and thought of her as some naive idiot that was outwitted by a master player.

 

But from reading this forum and others like it, I have found that the OW has plans on how to keep the man's attention and undermine his W and marriage. She takes notes on what he says about his W and uses them against this so-called inconsequential person. She makes sure to be the anti-W in every way, whether or not sex was ever involved. She makes the W the enemy and then lies to herself and says that the W doesn't matter.

 

But I do agree, OOD, that you will never understand the mindset that forgets about the humanity of the person that's going to be devastated upon discovery of the deception. The BW is not a real person to them. But an evil, unappreciative, had the nerve to gain weight after getting married, actually raises the kids, has other things on her mind besides effing her H constantly, doesn't take the time to look good for him, old and aging MONSTER that doesn't have feelings. How can anyone not hate such a monster or act cold and callous towards that construct of their imagination?

 

I understand what you are saying NID, but I think that hating the OW in my case would be a true waste of time and energy. She is not worth any emotion at all. I made the choice to use my time and energy to better my life. If that meant that my marriage had to end so that I could be happy, so be it. If that meant that my H would leave me for an OW, so be it. Neither of those happened, but I didn't feel that she was important enough to be any part of the equation. So, I made her insignificant, and that worked for me. That doesn't mean that it will work for every situation, so I respect your opinion.

[sadbuttrue]

i agree with what GEL said. an OW is a symptom of a bigger problem. the focus should be placed on the original problem, not us. you can try to treat the symptom but if you dont cure the disease, chances are it will keep coming back.

 

i am the mother of four children, i have all the responsibilities of raising a family, only i do it alone. i still find the time to be with MM and be there for him when he needs me. i listen to him, i love him, and i adore him. i dont think using family obligations is a good excuse for why you cant make more time for your H's.

[Tomcat33]

1. We listen, but we are not interested in helping our Hs live a fantasy. We have our own needs to consider as well. What about him being our OM?

 

2. We are not girls anymore. We are women that have likely matured and changed over the years.

 

3. Its not an excuse if you have a man that takes out the trash once a year and thinks that's progress. Besides, being in an A, its easy to forget that there are actually real responsibilities in a M that don't simply involve his feelings or his desires. If he wants a clean, efficient home, he must do his part.

 

4. I am not sure what to say about this one. People in As place a premium on "being happy", but not on "being right". If a MP would stop making others responsible for their happiness, then most As wouldn't happen.

 

 

Well you should listen and help your men create that fantasy with you. But you'll find it really hard to get your needs met it you are getting hung up on something as trivial as how much work he does around the house. Cutting corners in petty demands, that may be quite important to a BS but totally petty to a spouse, can go a long way. The cycle needs to start somewhere, and if you hang on to your demans with your every being then the cycle never breaks or has a chance to restart fresh.

 

Unfortunately sometimes to get what you want one person has to be the bigger person and say I'll let this slide if it means a change in the right direction, but more often than not it's what GEL said, it's more important to be right than it is to be happy. One person has to put their foot forward, and yes it might have to be you. It might have to be many gestrues forward to get to where you want to be, not too many people seem to be willing to do that.

 

Question is are you up for the challenge?

 

And don't underestimate the simple power of being happy, if you are happy your partner will also be happy.

[Cliche]

But I do agree' date=' OOD, that you will never understand the mindset that forgets about the humanity of the person that's going to be devastated upon discovery of the deception. The BW is not a real person to them. But an evil, unappreciative, had the nerve to gain weight after getting married, actually raises the kids, has other things on her mind besides effing her H constantly, doesn't take the time to look good for him, old and aging MONSTER that doesn't have feelings. How can anyone not hate such a monster or act cold and callous towards that construct of their imagination?[/quote']

What is up with the hyperbole all over the place?

 

Really, I doubt many OWs feel this way about the wife. I sure don't and never have. I don't think she's a monster. She seems rather nice. I just think that her and MM did not have much of a bond for whatever reasons of incompatibility. Sometimes marriages just don't work, whether it was the wrong two people to start with or they grew apart. I have no interest in demonizing his W. I even worry about her happiness. I just don't think she'll find it with him (or he with her).

[Cliche]

Gel, I wish you posted more often. You have such exquisite insight. That post was brilliant.

 

i agree with what GEL said. an OW is a symptom of a bigger problem. the focus should be placed on the original problem, not us. you can try to treat the symptom but if you dont cure the disease, chances are it will keep coming back.

 

i am the mother of four children, i have all the responsibilities of raising a family, only i do it alone. i still find the time to be with MM and be there for him when he needs me. i listen to him, i love him, and i adore him. i dont think using family obligations is a good excuse for why you cant make more time for your H's.

My marriage failed for many reasons (excepting infidelity, though at the end he could've had an A and I wouldn't have cared a lick). But the biggest problem was the resentment we had for one another. Sometimes I see a lot of that in marriages...resentment over the chores, family time, sex or lack of, roles, work, etc., etc. If that resentment cannot be worked on together and combated, the marriage will fail whether or not an OW/OM is involved.

[herenow]

i agree with what GEL said. an OW is a symptom of a bigger problem. the focus should be placed on the original problem, not us. you can try to treat the symptom but if you dont cure the disease, chances are it will keep coming back.

 

i am the mother of four children, i have all the responsibilities of raising a family, only i do it alone. i still find the time to be with MM and be there for him when he needs me. i listen to him, i love him, and i adore him. i dont think using family obligations is a good excuse for why you cant make more time for your H's.

 

The MM is the one using family obligations to stay married and not be with the OW. I don't buy it, but that's what some of the OW here tell me.

[sadbuttrue]

but you see, the MM is with the OW or else, we wouldnt be OW. maybe he is not leaving his family for us in every case, but he does come to us for some reason. and dont say it is all about sex. i do not believe that is the case in the majority of these situations, it has more to do with connecting on a deeper level.

[herenow]

but you see, the MM is with the OW or else, we wouldnt be OW. maybe he is not leaving his family for us in every case, but he does come to us for some reason. and dont say it is all about sex. i do not believe that is the case in the majority of these situations, it has more to do with connecting on a deeper level.

 

I think is all about the MM, his needs and whatever he is missing that is causing him to have an affair instead of facing his problems and the problems in his marriage. I don't think it has anything to do with the BW or the OW. There is no deeper level other that the problems deep inside the MM. JMO

[NoIDidn't]

Well, then I guess if you don't care about compromising in your M then that's between you and your H...And it shouldn't be surprising when someone finds out that their H cheated because his needs weren't being met...

 

I'm not absolving a man of doing his part in a M...both partners play an important in that...but if showing your H a little attention and physical affection will keep him coming home only to you, why wouldn't you just do it?

 

GEL

 

I answered your questions, but they weren't directed at you. Just keeping the convo going.

 

But, your response is generalizing too much. Who said anything about not being willing to compromise? Its apparently okay for the MM not to compromise, but the W has these hoops to jump through to keep HIM happy. All I ask is what about the W? Why aren't her feelings or desires for a happy outcome in her M being considered? Why is she seen as an object for HIS pleasure?

 

I was just showing HER humanity and maturity in contrast to the MM obvious lack of both in expecting everything and giving nothing.

[outofdarkness]

I'm wondering how to word this...

 

I did not know he was married for over a year...His patterns are not that of someone who goes to work at 9am and is off by 5pm everyday, so it wasn't something that was obvious...

 

And when I found out the truth, it was truly heartbreaking...but I chose to stay with him because I loved him...that was my choice...

 

I have never felt animosity toward her...We are not opponents, we just find ourselves in love with the same man (I'm assuming here)...

 

And you will probably never understand, no matter how hard you try or how open-minded you try to be to it...You will never understand what it is like unless you have experienced the other side of it...

 

I felt compelled to post because it started to be a thread that wasn't really the other side at all...More people who are in "contempt" of us, degrade us, tell us that we are horrible people...Hate breeds hate...and I just want to say that like everyone we are people...And we make mistakes...

well said Gel...you know that I have the utmost respect and admiration for you and your honesty..You have always treated myself and others with respect and dignity...Thanks for your honest and heartfelt reply...I really appreciate the insight and thoughtfulness..ood

[sadbuttrue]

yes, i agree, it is about his needs. he is missing something, and sometimes they find it with someone else. and yes he is not working on fixing the problem either by doing this.

[outofdarkness]

I don't think it's hard to understand that people make mistakes, GEL. What's difficult to comprehend is why some would appear to revel in a "mistake" that's sooooo harmful to others.

Why cleave to it?.. nurture it?... or unite with like-minded others in an effort to protect it?

 

It's easy to step in sh*t. Happens everyday. But why not wipe it off your boot when it does and then resolve to step a little lighter in the future?

I do not think that GEL is one of the OW's on this forum who revels in it...JMHO.

[herenow]

GEL

 

I answered your questions, but they weren't directed at you. Just keeping the convo going.

 

But, your response is generalizing too much. Who said anything about not being willing to compromise? Its apparently okay for the MM not to compromise, but the W has these hoops to jump through to keep HIM happy. All I ask is what about the W? Why aren't her feelings or desires for a happy outcome in her M being considered? Why is she seen as an object for HIS pleasure?

 

I was just showing HER humanity and maturity in contrast to the MM obvious lack of both in expecting everything and giving nothing.

 

Some OW want to believe that the MM is a victim in a bad marriage and that's why he is having an affair. They don't want to admit that it may be the MM that has caused the marriage to break down because then he could do the very same to the OW and where would that leave her? Harsh reality in a fantasy affair kills the buzz.

[NoIDidn't]

What is up with the hyperbole all over the place?

 

Really, I doubt many OWs feel this way about the wife. I sure don't and never have. I don't think she's a monster. She seems rather nice. I just think that her and MM did not have much of a bond for whatever reasons of incompatibility. Sometimes marriages just don't work, whether it was the wrong two people to start with or they grew apart. I have no interest in demonizing his W. I even worry about her happiness. I just don't think she'll find it with him (or he with her).

 

Cliche,

 

I was just giving examples of the kinds of things that I have read. Its not one person, its a collection of things said on boards that I have read. Many OW don't feel this way, but many do. Many see the whole A as some sort of cosmic competition for them to finally get that "happily ever after" that they missed in another R, be it a failed marriage or a broken engagement, or maybe they never even had a real R before the MM.

 

So, not pointing fingers, just stating what I have learned about the opinion some OW have of the W to keep things going.

[Ladyjane14]

As for women being held to a higher standard, it's just another way of excusing male behavior...Isn't that another way of alleviating personal responsiblity? But I guess we don't want to mention that...

 

This question before us isn't about the MM/MW who elects to cheat. It's about the OM/OW who elects to cheat with them, and how they justify their rationale.

 

You can take potshots at me if you want, call me a hater, whatever. But it won't make me wrong.

It's one thing to mess up, it's something wholly different to adopt 'the mess' as right and just.

 

The best answer we seem to have had so far is that OM/OW don't think about what they're doing. In fact, they actively supply an almost endless array of excuses to themselves and others for doing it. I think maybe they just don't want to believe that what they do makes them bad people.

 

But you know what?... in my opinion it really does. Past the point where you know what you're doing is wrong, it becomes a willful act... a choice, a decision to continue down a destructive path and to embrace that which inflicts pain upon others.

 

It's not a "mistake" once you've become educated and witnessed the devastation caused by adultery. Pointing the finger at the MM/MW-cheater can't offer any absolution to the OM/OW. We all make our own choices after all. Nobody's put a gun to anybody's head here.

 

I just find it unimaginably sad that people are willing to live with themselves that way and not want better.