An emotional affair

[Kay]

My first post ... I am 43, my husband is 42 and we have been married almost 20 years. We have 2 children, 16 & 13.

 

Recently, I found out that my husband has been involved in a relationship with my best friend of 15 years. Her husband is/was my husband's best friend, too. She admitted to her husband that she still has feelings for my husband, but that it was never a physical relationship. Apparently, she is wracked with guilt and can barely cope. My husband has not and will not discuss their relationship and will not go to marriage counseling. 3 months ago, he moved out of our bedroom and into our guest room.

 

The hardest thing for me to understand is that, even tho' he is not sleeping in our bed, he has never been kinder, more caring, helpful and loving toward me. We are not intimate, but we do display affection towards each other. I have known him 30 years (high school sweethearts) and I want to believe he is trying to find his way back to me in his own way.

 

Our family has had a very difficult 4 years; my father died suddenly, his sister committed suicide, my niece died of a drug overdose and my husband lost a very high level job to name a few issues. We are in the process of selling our house for financial reasons and part of me feels that I need to wait until we actually move into a new house and"start fresh" before I confront him about his feelings and determine whether we both want to actively work on our marriage.

 

I do not want a divorce, and I really don't think he does either, but he is not making any attempt to talk about anything. It's as if he's afraid to, but also very sad and depressed. I ave told him that if he plans to move with me and our children into a new home, he can not continue living "apart" from me. A I being totally naiive? I am really hurting constantly and so unhappy. Does anyone have any advice for me?

[HokeyReligions]

Kay, even if he doesn't want to go to counseling with you, YOU need to go. You need some help to sort out your emotions and prioritize the current events in your life.

 

My husband and I have been thru some pretty trying financial times - at one point we were living out of a '73 VW Bug.

 

I have never experienced infidelity (emotional or physical) within my marriage and I just don't know how I would truly handle it. I would like to think that I wouldn't run away, but would give him time to be able to confront everything and discuss it with me when he was ready. On the other hand, he is the one who chose infidelity and he should be meeting you on YOUR terms. I just don't know the answer, but I do feel that some counseling will help you to cope and make good decisions. You will also be setting a good example for your kids by showing them that it is okay to need help sometimes, and to get help when you need it. Maybe your husband will see the example too.

 

I'm sorry about your financial situation. That is scary and heartbreaking in its own right, but to be coupled with family deaths and a marital crisis is too much for anyone. Please take care of yourself and get some personalized counseling. I don't know what we would have done if it weren't for marriage counseling and personal counseling. Probably be divorced now.

[sheeba]

i don't have advice-just a shoulder. you know-i think sexual affairs and affairs of the heart are two different things. i think i could live thru my husband doing the hortizontal rumble with another woman (or maybe i couldn't-i dunno) but if he felt ...."love" for someone else-i just don't know how i could ever get past that.

 

are you angry at your friend? i would be. how DARE her do this to you-with friends like that who needs enemies. i know it takes to-but my god how you must feel right now-your BEST friend-and your man.

 

it is so easy for me to sit here and say-leave....but i know its hard. also? you mention how kind he is being to you? i read somewhere that spouses who are having affairs are extra attentive to their spouses and family-one to assauge the guilt they carry and two-frankly-because they are happy and its easy to spread around.

 

there would just be no two ways about this for me. as i typed this note to you it became really clear to me: i would dump the friend and dump my husband. they deserve each other. but if you want to work it out-and you may because you sound strong and like you have your head on straight-hokey was right-go to counseling alone.

 

if its financial worries-unfortunately......i think you'd make out alright. he is the one who brought this on-i believe you'd be entitled to alimony and certainly child support. don't stay because you think it won't be any better. is it that great now?

 

((BIG HUGS))

 

sheeba

[Kay]

Just wanted to thank HokeyReligions and Sheeba for your replies. I have been therapy (as you suggested, Hokey) for 2 years by myself and YES, I have DUMPED my former friend (as you said, Sheeba)!

 

I am still living in limbo as far as my marriage is concerned. Husband is still sleeping in our guest room, house is still or sale. I still really don't think my husband wants a divorce but we're still at a stalemate, probably for the sake of our kids.

 

Time will tell when we finally sell this house ... if my husband moves with us and back into our bedroom and if so, I will insist that we go to counseling. We have TOO many issues to ignore.

 

I truly believe he does not keep in contact with my former friend. I could be completely wrong, but I am trying to understand and "take the higher road," for the sake of my family.

 

My church has helped me so much spiritually, too. Again, thank you so much fo your comments. Please write again (and any others out there!) You have NO idea how much it helps!

[NEONINK]

I keep quoting darn country songs, but this one has always stayed with me...

 

It's only love, when it's love in return.

[Carly]

I was thinking about the problem you are having getting over your husband's "emotional affair."

 

I've been seeing that term a lot lately, and have even used it myself. Apparently there is a book on the topic by an "expert", claiming that an emotional affair is more damaging to a realtionship than a physical affair. We have seen posts from women here who say they could forgive a physical infidelity, but NEVER an emotional one.

 

You know what? I just don't buy this whole "emotional affair is tantamount to sexual affair" crap anymore.

 

The term never existed in the past, and I am convinced that many problems have been created just by the mere introduction of the term into our emotion-focussed psyche.

 

I am your age-ish, with kids. I travelled for months (days at a time) with a man from work with whom I had a great, enjoyable, even flirty time with. As time went on in our travels, we became extremely comfortable with each other, and disclosed much more about ourselves than we would within the normal boundaries of a professional relationship (um, verbal disclosure only -- nothing physical!!). It was sad in a sweet-sorrow way when our travels were over; we each definitely had to go through an adjustment period to get back into our professional roles at work.

 

But THEN my well-meaning friends (er, psychologists and therapists) started telling me that in fact I was carrying on an "emotional affair" with this guy, and this is a form of infidelity.

 

Well, I couldn't argue that our behavior fit the definiton and so, I soon became, in my eyes and theirs, an "adulterous". Upon this ugly "realization" about myself, I became wracked with guilt, started questioning my own marriage, and spiralling into a big fat mid-life crisis.

 

Fortunately for me, though, common sense over this ridiculous issue soon prevailed. I did not have an "affair"; I am not an adulterous. I am not wracked with guilt. And I will never again describe anyone else's emotional closeness with someone outside marriage as being paramount to a sexual affair. Period.

 

NONE of this is to invalidate or negate your disappointment, sadness, or sense of betrayal from your husband's close relationship with your friend.

 

And in your case, the circumstances and ensuing hurt may truly be unbearable enough for you to want to leave him.

 

For me personally? If my husband had a sexual affair, I would dump him so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. And if somehow I ever did forgive him, I would certainly NEVER have sex with him again until he got my whole list of blood work completed for STDs (I worked in the sexual health field).

 

But would I dump my husband if he experienced a personal closeness with a woman he found attractive YET he refrained from acting sexually with AND he was no longer even talking her? Heck no. Nor would I ever call him a adulterer (and I certainly wouldn't ask for the blood work).

 

All this to say that "emotional affairs" between men and women have always gone on, always will go on. But they should never be twisted into being equivalent to a sexual affair.

[Kay]

WOW, Carley! Thank you so much for caring enough to write and for obviously putting a great deal of thought into your response.

 

For me, knowing that my husband of 20 years, had lovng feelings for someone I also cared about (truly like a sister) is a pain that will probably never completely go away. Whether or not he still has those feelings, even if he does not see her anymore, is the difficult part obviously. I have not spoken to her for over a year (she and I talked every day for 15 years, our children are best friends and we even vacationed together for 10 years!) It gets worse ... both my husband and her husband were best friends, too. Now, she and her husband's divorce will be final in 2 weeks. Don't think I haven't thought about the significance of that -- I could find out that I have been the single biggest fool on the planet and that he has a "hidden agenda." Still, I continue to be strong for my children and to myself by MY choice, not his or anyone else's.

 

Your comments about your own experience with this other person in your life leading you to a "mid life crisis" was very significant. You said that it led you to question your marriage and your feelings. Again, I might be totally naiive, but I absolutely think that happened with my husband. In 4 years time, he lost his sister (to suicide),his extremely high level job of 18 years, my father (his own father committed suicide at the age of 42 when my husband was 17, now my husband is 43) We also moved and he started a fledling new business at about one tenth his previous income.

 

"Can you say midlife crisis????"

 

Maybe I'm trying to find a reason for all of this to make it less painful, I don't know. What I do know is that I married for "better or worse," and until I am served with papers, I have chosen to accept where I'm at (at least most days)for the time being. My children (a daughter who is 16 and a son who is 13) think I am pretty admirable and I hope that I am setting an example as to fidelity, commitment and marriage. (they do not know about the "affair") I would never put them through that.

 

OMG, I can't believe how I'm rambling! Again, my best wishes to you Carley and my thanks again. Talking to complete strangers who actually seem to care is amazing! Anyone else care to address this confused but decent person???

[Carly]

You're welcome, Kay.

 

I am saddened to see, though, that in fact your husband had more that an "emotional affair." To use your own words, he was acutally in love with this other woman. And by the way, I realize that she was your friend, but I don't think that makes it any worse on your husband's part. It just makes it worse on your ex-friend's part because she betrayed a friendship as well as acted as a homewrecker.

 

Of course your husband played a homewrecking role as well. Yes, you are still married, but you are both sleeping seperately. Sounds like you are all living together in a lodge, not a home.

 

So we're getting to the heart of the issue here at the old Loveshack: Your husband fell in love with another woman; he is no longer interested in you sexually; he doesn't want to work on the problems; he's otherwise being a nice guy, but you suspect that is more for the kids's benefit than yours. Your problems are much more that what people today sometimes call an "emotional affair."

 

I don't agree that you are setting a great role model for your kids. If your daughter married a man who fell in love with someone else, and who refused to sleep with her or work on the problems, would you want her to model your behavior and stick with him unconditionally? That is for you to answer to yourself.

 

And not to question your religious or moral convictions in sticking with this guy, but could financial considerations also be a factor? Are you economically dependent on him? Again, no need to answer here.

 

Good luck with this journey, Kay. It's a tough one.

[sillygirl]

Kay/Carly,

 

I am 47. I have been married 13 years-we have been living together a total of 20 years. 3 kids ages 11 year old twins and 8. Nice house etc.

 

I Am having trouble sorting thru my feelings. Maybe some of you can shed some light on what my husband has been up to. I have found your discussions relating to "emotional infidelity" very interesting.

 

 

3 years ago I discovered a letter my husband wrote to a women he met while working. He had actually told me of her in a nonchalant way He did not mention his feelings towards her. Here's a quote ""As wattage burned low & sleep was not far, I hazily realized that I read not the story but to find out about who you are. So I fear this is an unscratched itch.

Please E-mail or call." I was very upset. I felt hurt, lied to and inadequate. We went into therapy-etc. nothing really ever changed.

 

I had often felt my husband had an unhealthy attachment to my best friend and neighbor. We also went on 1 vacation together. I often felt that he flirted w/her infront of me. I told him I was uncomfortable & asked him to stop. He said I was overly sensitive. Not until I yelled at my husband for touching her in an inappropriate way in front of me(she was at our house w/her kids),did it come out that her husband on several occasions was upset by this also. No one wanted to confront my husband. My neighbor is not speaking w/my husband anymore. My husband says she flirted with him.

 

Just over 1 month ago I found a reciept from a hotel in my husbands pant pocket. He said he was really sorry-He met her on the internet(Yahoo personals-what was he doing there?) She wanted a penpal so he wrote. Anyway they went to a hotel after 3 to 4 months of corresponding. He swears they didn't have sex. They both realized this wasn't the right thing to do. I find this really hard to believe.

 

My husband wanted to go into couples therapy but I felt I needed time to sort thru my feeling with my own therapist. I've gone a few times. In the mean time I insisited my husband continue w/ individual therapy so that he could better answer some of my questions. We are presently searching for a couples therapist.

 

We were not sleeping together-but are again together in our room. We have been talking more. My emotions swing from day to day-Hate-Love-Hate -Love

 

I really wonder if I am just making to many excuses & should just give up on this marriage. Perhaps I like the "Marriage Package" more than the person I'm married to. I've already worked thru that I don't need to stay for the kids which was an excuse I've used long enough.

 

Any comments or insights?

[Whiskeyeye]

One simple answer is you love him unconditional, just remember Hilary Clinton, read her book! Or you could move on, i would suggest a book "he never called again". You must keep busy, become independent, and he will come running back. I suggest take a look inside yourself, you must feel great about yourself first, and then, do something different, buy new clothes, change your hairstyle, become a self-sufficient woman. Do something for yourself, that you always wanted to do, but somehow held back.

 

Good Luck!

[NEONINK]

in the comparison to Hillary, tough comparison, because she might have her own intern. I doubt she's that saintly to be considered 'unconditional love'.

 

[More the fool me]

I never understood or knew about "emotional affairs" untill recently, Theres never an easy way out of an emotional affair because regardless of the reasons two people become very dependant on each other.

I say this because I am guilty of such an "affair", I love my wife and children without any doubt. Yet I have my friend who i care for intensly and deeply.

I have no sexual intent towards my friend but I have an emotional bond with her and in many ways is my soul mate. You may all say that its my wifes need that is the only need I should be filling and indeed that would be true and is I am or at least try to be a very loving caring husband and father and there hasnt been any disturbance in our sleeping arangments.

 

ALL my friends are woman and they always have been, I was always the one they would call when there boyfriend left them or they were have personal crisis. I was always the friend and never the boyfriend.

I do believe the term "emotional affair" is a term that is used to blaim marital issues. Sometimes if it wasnt for this "friend" you may be dealing with a real world affair with all the damage that can come from it. I know that I am a very sensitive man, I dont go to bars or enjoy sports as much as most men. I enjoy being in touch with my feelings and enjoy being close with people.

So what does this make me ..... does this make me a "modern man" or does this make me a dispicable love cheat.

Theres no doubt doubt in my mind that I love my friend and I know she loves me.... but theres a big difference of loving someone and being in love with someone.

I found that I did get jealous when my friend started a new relationship and it did make me analyse my feelings and i spoke to my friend about what i felt and tried to understand and put things into catagories. But the reality is everyday people fall in love, theres no such thing as an ideal relationship whats makes it wrong is when you turn that emotional bond that soul mate connection into a sexual RELATIONSHIP. it is selfish to believe that sex is sex but emotions are exclusive. I have never felt the need to cheat on my wife and in deed lost my virginity to her at the grand old age of 25 and have stayed faithfull and will continue to do so. So how can being intimate with someone be classed as cheating, woman are intimate with each other on a daily bases talking about their men or there personal issues why should this be different for a woman to talk to a man. I know from my experience that when my girl friends ask me my opinion she want a mans opinion but with a womans sensitivity.

My wife doesnt understand my relationship with this girl but she respects it, and I respect my marriage and my wife becasue of that. I find it is just as damaging to betray a friendship as it is a marriage. Should we cast these people out of our lives and resent our partners becasue of it, should we try to move away in the hope that our problems wont follow us. We cannot blaim others for OUR problems. Most "emotional affairs" are caused by a deficiet in somebodies life and the reality that most relationships have little or no trust. I have 8 god daughters and 5 god sons and in deed in many cases i am the ONLY godfather to some. I love them like they were my own children does this make me a paedophile...I should hope not ...generally it is accepted in society to love your children....your parents ....your spouse....your family .... but friends is ok as long as they arnt from the opposite sex.

I know that this post will probly upset somebody, but if the friendship causes your husband or wife to move out of the marital bed maybe the issue was already there becasue the Marriage should be stronger than the friendship, you cant fix the marriage by getting rid of the friend. if your car got dirty would you throw away the car or give it a wash.

Work on your marriage give your spouse the room they need and most importantly stop being a husband/wife and start being a friend.....you might find that they want YOU to need them.

[midori]

I think you're confusing being a good friend with what is meant by "emotional affair."

 

An emotional affair is one in which the married/attached partner(s) share intimacies with their "friend," to the exclusion of their spouse. Often they discuss their troubled marriage/relationship with their "friend," venting their frustrations and constructing their perspective on their own marriage without any input from their spouse. THAT is detrimental to the marriage. Turning to a third party when there are problems in your marriage just exacerbates the situation. When there are problems, the two involved parties need to sort it out between them. There needs to be communication of feelings, doubts, everything. Directing those things elsewhere robs your spouse of the opportunity to interact with you about things that are at the center of your relationship with your spouse.

 

Have friends. Have many female friends. Be a sensitive male who cares about other people. I'm glad you've got an understanding wife. You MIGHT want to ask yourself why your friends are exclusively female. Are you perhaps a little too eager for female approval and attention? Regardless, if all is well in your household, congratulations!

[Kay]

Thank you, Midori for your insightful response to "more the fool me."

 

To "more the fool me": In my case, my husband's relationship with my former best friend went from platonic (which I always encouraged!) to mutually exclusive, secretive and inappropriate. Both of our marriages were having problems prior to this and I continually suggested marriage counseling. My husband went with me once; however, he spent 45 minutes on his cell phone immediately prior to our appointment talking to HER. Would you consider this simply a "friendhip?" I think not.

 

At the time their relationship went from friendship to an emotional affair was shortly after he lost his job, his sister killed herself, my Dad died, we moved into a new house and he bought a business. I did my very best to support him 100% emotionally, physically and spiritually. I have known him for 28 years. We didn't have a perfect marriage prior to all this (who does?) but we were doing okay. HE made the choice to venture out of the bonds of marriage by seeking her out secretly and intentionally excluding me. THAT is what I meant by an "emotional affair."

 

It was very hard to accept, but I know that in some way, they "fell in love," and at a time when my husband was questioning his life, future, etc. Incidentally, this other woman has filed for divorce from her husband. My husband is still with me and little by little, we are making strides toward our marriage. Two steps forward, one step back ... I know he is now realizing how much he has to lose if he were to divorce me and probably does not know if he really "stopped" loving me or just started to love her because I have continued to be caring and kind but not focused completely on him anymore. I have begun to move on with my life with new interests and outlook. It is the hardest thing I've ever done - not to think of myself as only part of a couple, but as a strong, capable, independent woman. Most of the time, I know that I'll be okay no matter what happens with my marriage. I have great friends, family and 2 incredible children and this brings me the support I need to get through this.

 

Having female friends is wonderful, so long as these friendships do not cause problems with your marriage. I would tend to think that even my husband would say that I have always been his friend. However, I am not, nor should any spouse be, a therapist. I'm simply not qualified, even tho' I thought I could "fix" our problems myself. No spouse should even try. It takes two people to damage a marriage (and there is almost always blame on both sides) but it takes two people to mend a marriage as well.

 

Take care, all.

[More the fool me]

Midori,

 

You have raised a very very valid reply and I look at this girl with more than friendly eyes, I have as said previously looked at this friendship and in deed done some heavy soul searching as I know that when i dont see her I miss her, I enjoy her company and I have noticed in my own mind that I am more relaxed when in her company when I am not.

 

Allthough I know I wouldnt always tell my wife about the conversations I have had, I see this being private between friends in very much the same way as i would not expect her to tell me her private conversations.

 

In deed the girl to which im refering started out as my wifes friend then became my friend through time.

 

I do not find fault with my marriage becasue I am a happily married man, but you made a reference with regards to femail approval.........My mom left the family home when i was 8 years old and I was abused violently by my father for 8 years thereafter. I have found that nearly all my femail friends all seem to be very alike .....very petit blondes and i dont suppose it would suprise you to know that this is also what my mom is.

 

Maybe i do have a failing for this "type" and maybe I am trying to fix what happened to me when i was a child I note that my wife couldnt be more opposite.

 

I have my own concerns due to not being happy with my feelings for somebody that i shouldnt.

 

But the question has to always be whether in most cases the male is looking for an affair and uses friendship as an excuse or whether there is a genuine bond.

 

I think in most cases guys tend to use the friendship excuse becasue it justifies the contact with somebody they find sexually attractive..hense why they stop being intimate with there partner.

 

I think Billy Crystal said it all in the film "when harry met sally" in which he pointed out "men and woman can never be friends""because sex ALWAYS comes into it"

 

Its a real problem in this day and age where we as indeviduals are constantly forced into each others company. I personally work in an enviroment where there are 50 woman to 4 men.

 

This may only seem more of a problem today due to previous enviroments being exclusivly male or femail or indeed men were different and where heavily discouraged to be open about there feelings.

 

I realllly do agree with what everybody is saying and I do genuinly empethise with the situations at hand.

 

I have looked at every excuse in the book for my feelings even to the degree that I see her as a sister......what is the reality I dont know.

 

I can see how this betrayal has caused you pain Kay, and certainly there was much inappropriate behavour. I certainly dont think you can help falling in love and I certainly think it is possible to love more than one person however it should be more important to be open about a friendship and certainly if you feel that you are starting to get too deep or being detrimental to your partner then it would be adventagous to back off to a more acceptable stance.

 

I personally found that I was getting too close and as a result I made excuses for an argument so that i would not be able to let myself get into that situation. Unfortunatly becasue this friend is a family friend and not exclusive it is very difficult to keep up a charade of anger/hate in order to keep other feelings at bay.

 

Of course its always healthy to think "how would I like it if my wife met another man behind my back" or "if it was my husband sitting accross the table with another woman" I think if more people thought like that then morals should overcome behavour.

 

I have no answers how to make things better ..... or how not to let these things happen....remember there are instances of woman running off with other woman and men with men, so i guess it isnt always so black and white.

All we can do is try our best and do whats right. We cant help ourselves falling in love if we want it to happen but we can help it if we are able to identify the situation and deal with it appropriatly.

 

It sounds to me Kay that your husband was unable to deal with his life or in deed relate to the problems that he was faced with I dont pertain to knowing why he behaved in such a way all i can say is that it was proberly never his intent and as you say he proberly never stopped loving you at all.

 

I reallly do wish you well and hope that you can put your marriage back together again

[midori]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. One of the things that I think draws men (and women) into emotional affairs is the opportunity to unburden themselves to someone they have no obligations to.

 

Perhaps your husband could talk to his friend's wife openly because he didn't need to fear the consequence of anything he had to say. Your family was going through a lot of difficulties, some specifically related to him (job loss, sister's suicide). The fear and doubt and anxiety he must have felt (and may well still feel) may be thingst that he doesn't feel he can express to you because he feels you're already worried about them yourself. He may feel guilty and inadequate about his job loss, for example, but doesn't feel he can express that to you because a) you're his wife and of course you'll say "oh honey, you're still terrific" and b) you're related to the guilt he feels. He feels inadequate as a husband/breadwinner. That kind of thing. He could talk to her though, because none of what he was burdened with had any real impact on her. She was sympathetic AND uninvolved.

 

I think a big mistake that people in a relationship can make is to assume that since they're sharing experiences, perspectives must be shared too -- thus nothing needs to be expressed. I find that inquiring about what my boyfriend thinks about something that he's going through, or how he feels about something that affects us both is immensely useful. I often hear things I hadn't quite expected. Moreover, I sense his gratitude at having the chance to specifically talk about how he's feeling about a given issue.

 

Sometimes, especially when things are bad, we might be inclined to tiptoe around our partners. Why bring something up, even in a kind and sympathetic way, when they might be embarrassed or would just prefer to not talk about it? Keeping the peace via repression doesn't serve much good. Strong communication requires constant cultivation and maintenence. Assuming that your partner will bring something up if he/she wants to talk about it puts the burden on them to raise what might be for them a very difficult issue.

 

I once had a boyfriend who had a lot of family issues, things that he never really talked about to anyone, although he would occasionally mention things to me. I knew they were troubling to him, and I knew that they affected his life in subtle but strong ways. When we were together his dad moved in with his long-time mistress (parents had been divorced for years but the mistress -- a former "family friend" -- was a sore point and neither my ex nor his sister were reconciled to her presence in their father's life). I imagined how I would feel in my ex's shoes, and I brought it up with him. Something like, "you know I don't know how I would handle this if I were in your shoes. On the one hand I think I'd feel xxx... .and on the other hand I'd also be concerned about yyyy..." I created an opening for him, and he took it, telling me how he actually felt and how he thought he was going to handle his relationship with his father. I know he was surprised and grateful to have that chance to talk to me about the situation -- and I also know that he wouldn't have broached it with me if left to his own devices.

 

Leaving a relationship on autopilot -- especially during troubled times -- is often not a good idea. Even when you're preoccupied with your own worries, you've got to make sure you're really in touch with your partner, and that your partner sees you as a source of understanding and support. No matter what they're trying to deal with, and no matter how the issues will impact you. I know that's much more easily said than done, and there will be times when strong and clear communication just won't be possible. But it's got to be something you constantly strive for, monitor, correct, etc. Like balancing a checkbook.

 

Good luck. Couples therapy would be a good idea, as well as individual therapy. A person who is in effective therapy might not need to seek out "emotional affairs" since they already have a forum for discussing their problems.

[Carly]

Kay, while I was reading Midori's reply above, I was feeling very bad for you. Although I'm sure Midori meant only to try to help you and your husband, the overall message (from my reading anyway) is that your husband's involvement with another woman might have been prevented had you asked him the right questions and proven yourself more avilable to him.

 

I just think that this is an unfair presumption to make. Puts the blame and shame on you, the victim of all of this. Besides, there are some marital problems that will only be made WORSE by the reaching-out-and-caring thing. For example, if your husband has passive-aggressive needs to emotionally control you (which he very well may, given his bahavior in all of this), then your bids for closeness with him could set you up for his sadistic emotional tendencies and backfire on you very sorely. I'm not saying this is the case with you and your husband, I'm just saying that you should be careful about taking marital advice from the internet.

 

Sounds like you are getting some good help elsewhere. You are taking care of yourself, backing off from him a bit, and things are getting better.

 

Oh, and having gone through an "emotional affair" myself, I absolutely share your assessment of them: They are a violation of boundaries between two adults who are supposed to be committed to their legitimate partners. I will never again share close and intimate disclosures with any man to whom I am attracted.

 

People can write on the internet about "friendships" between men and women 'til they have exhausted their intellectualizing defences to death. But in my mind, if there is attraction between them, then there is a LOT more between them than they could ever admit. They are playing with fire.

 

Keep us posted.

[Tony T]

Every bit of advice you will ever read on this forum until the end of the Internet is based on presumptions, specualtion, etc. There is never a post that gives the total picture and most often it's from one point of view.

 

Replies to posts are meant to be speculation. Considering all the communication hurdles we have here, the only thing we can do is present the original poster with a variety of thoughts, angles, solutions, speculations, etc. for his or her consideration. He or she is in the best position, usually, to decide which applies and which does not.

 

Very often, posters are in some sort of denial or they haven't got a clue themselves. We present alternative views, a variety of them hopefully, for consideration.

 

Normally, I wouldn't be posting this message to someone but you are a very sharp cookie and I think you understand that we are trying to help someone who does not have enough time or space to give us the total picture.

 

I love it when posters reply directly to the person seeking advice without commenting on other posts...unless they offer information that could endanger someone's life. Midori is one of the sharpest ladies on this forum, with keen insight, and she was not offering fact but only a possible view. I think midori's post was very educational...and the very first word she used was "perhaps." Her second paragraph started with "I think." Her third paragraph began with "Sometimes." Her fourth with "I once."

 

I think everybody does their best to present posters with alternatives. The communication factor makes it imperative that posters receive as many alternatives as possible and, in my opinion, it's best if original posters pick the information they feel best applies to them from all the offerings.

[midori]

Yep, I was just offering one possible perspective. It's a plausible scenario, but of course there are many others.

 

I think that in order to benefit from other people's experience and perspectives a person must have a general sense of what's going on for themselves. Carly interpreted passive-aggressive manipulation in Kay's account of her husband's behavior, I didn't. I generally think that emotional affairs are things that people tend to wander into unwittingly -- but of course that's not always the case. Some people are more deliberately devious. The only person who knows how things got to their current state is Kay. She'll have to choose and discard the suggestions people offer here, based on her own knowledge of her own relationship.

 

When I've posted here about my problems I've received some replies that were way off-base as far as my particular experience was concerned. They weren't describing me or my situation -- even if the surface features were the same. You never know, and taking in different perspectives is helpful to bring your own into focus. Maybe Kay's husband is trying to control her. Or maybe he's just been a bit overwhelmed and confused, and maybe that unfortunately coincided with her being overwhelmed and confused. If we all told Kay to be forceful and assume the worst about her husband's actions and intentions, we would be imposing a negative interpretation onto a situation that might be much more nuanced.

 

One thing that I agree with you on Carly, is that what I proposed puts the burden of maintaining communication on Kay. At least for the time being. And if she is herself overwhelmed and confused that will be hard to do. Why shouldn't her husband be nurturing to her? Why should she be trying to empathize with him when he's not doing the same for her? Perhaps because right now she's the one who's wondering what to do.

 

It sounds like they've both lost their bearings in the relationship at the moment, and it sounds like her husband's coping mechanism for being lost is detrimental to the relationship. Which is unfortunate. Now Kay has to decide what she wants to do. Does she want to save the relationship? Viewing her husband as a controlling manipulator probably isn't going to help her maintain the relationship -- and who would want to maintain a relationship with a controlling manipulator anyway? I think the perspective I offered is one through which she might, *might* be able to get them back on track with each other. If that's what she wants to do. If she doesn't -- and she can certainly make that choice -- then trying to empathize and listen to her husband would be a waste of time.

 

The same ex I referred to in my earlier post can easily be seen as a manipulative, selfish man. To some extent that is in fact the case, because at the end of the day actions mean more than intentions, and he consistently behaved in an emotionally evasive, selfish, and callous way. For some people that would be enough: he acts like a jerk, he must be one. End of story. But that's not the whole story. I guess it all depends on whether or not one is able to be satisfied with black and white answers. I think in a marriage or any long-term relationship there are often many grey areas. Otherwise we'd all break-up the minute one or the other transgressed in the smallest way.

[Carly]

Kay,

 

I doubt that you interpreted my post to say that your husband is manipulative, passive aggressive, etc. But others have and that's too bad.

 

It is important to point out thought that this is a possibility about your husband and if this does sound true to you, then be very careful about how you reach out to your husband with emotionally focussed bids for closeness and opening up.

 

The American Psychological Association is actually trying to putting the brakes on all registered psychologists who are going overboard with this kind of advice to spouses who could be emotionally controlling and self-serving. The thing is that these spouses (usually husbands) sometimes respond to these bids in a very harmful way toward their spouses. They can become emotionally abusive and even physically abusive, and they are darned good at making their spouse feel that it was they who deserved the abuse.

 

In the medical world, they would say that there are great treatments for many diseases. On the other hand, there are some people who are contraindicated to these treatments, meaning that the treatments could do more harm than good, because of some other underlying problem with the patient. For example, DM is a great remedy for nighttime cough. However, it is dangerous for people with asthma.

 

Midori's advice is great for the garden variety of marital problems. On the otehr hand, it could wreak havoc with the wrong kind of man. Your husband's behavior suggests that PERHAPS he is AT RISK for responding badly to Midoris' advice.

 

For that reason, I offer my warnings. Although as I say it sounds like things are going much better for you with the help that you are receiving.

 

Good luck.

 

Please keep us posted and don't be scared off by the on-line bickering about your marriage or each other's replies.

[Kay]

Hello, everyone. First of all, I just want to thank ALL of you for your input, insight, concern and support. I read each post with an open mind and sincerely appreciate all the different thoughts and opinions. Even if we are total strangers in the world of cyberspace, I feel less alone everytime I come to this site and see that there are many caring people out there.

 

Just an update - it's getting messier by the day. My former friend and her soon to be ex are going through a nasty divorce. Things are absolutely horrible - she is having him investigted, etc. for what else? Money, money, money. Now his lawyer has subpoened (sp?) my husband, me and some of my closest friends to prove evidence of an affair. (my friends were present at a party in which the two of them behaved very inapproprately) My husband will be called to testify and produce his cell phone records for the past 2 years. I will have to sit through all this, listening to my husband's "account" of the situation. My former friend is claiming that she can no longer work due to a back injury and is filing for permanent alimony. This, from a woman who is a highly ranked tennis player, etc. Her husband doesn't even know what "back injury" she is referring to!

 

WHAT AN UNBELIEVABLE MESS. I told my husband this morning that I was being called to testify, etc. He didn't know about it. He looks ready to collapse. WIth his family history, I am concerned about his mental state, but am working to preserve my own first.

 

So, what do you all think about this mess?

[Carly]

Kay,

 

My sympathy goes out to you completely. It would be hard to imagine any worse twist that this sordid affair could have taken -- especially for you, who is the bystander (victim?) in all of this.

 

And what a dilemna you will be put through in court -- On the one hand wanting to protect your husband's image (if just for the kids' sake if nothing else, who knows). Yet on the other hand a part of you must want him to be made accountable for his actions. If this is going to happen in the court of law then I guess the chips will fall where they may and perhaps you can rest knowing that it really is out of your hands.

 

Somewhere along the road I picked up this philosophy that in order for people to move on after meeting adversity head on, they have to find some meaning from it. What meaning, or what good, could possibly come out of this ugly mess? My thinking on this is that the whole story could serve as a lesson for everyone around who bears witness to it -- including your kids.

 

It could also provide a chance for you to role model some grace and humility under adversity and humiliation. This lesson could go a long way for your kids later on in life.

 

As we can see from the many posts at Loveshack, many, many people just don't get it when it comes to figuring out why it is so wrong to get romantically involved with someone outside the relationship (mea culpa, mea cupla). If this thread doesn't serve as a lesson to anyone who cares to read it, then nothing will.

 

I would like to thank YOU for keeping us posted on this unfortunate mess and letting us all learn from it. For some people it would be too embarrassing, or too shameful, to disclose. You have guts, girl!! You are a survivor!!

 

I am only sorry that I don't have any more concrete advice for you. Well, except to remind you that most of these cases settle outside of court in the eleventh hour. Let's hope.

 

Take good care.

[midori]

Originally posted by Carly

 

Midori's advice is great for the garden variety of marital problems. On the otehr hand, it could wreak havoc with the wrong kind of man. Your husband's behavior suggests that PERHAPS he is AT RISK for responding badly to Midoris' advice.

 

For that reason, I offer my warnings. Although as I say it sounds like things are going much better for you with the help that you are receiving.

 

So if I'm reading you right, Carly, you are indeed raising the possibility that Kay's husband is manipulative and controlling -- or, as you say, "at risk" for being so. Which is certainly a good point to raise, one that is as valid as any other -- but it's just a possibility. If you have reason to believe that's true, great, why not just say so -- instead of trying to dismiss another poster's equally plausible and valid suggestions? It's hardly helpful.

 

Please keep us posted and don't be scared off by the on-line bickering about your marriage or each other's replies.

 

I've enjoyed reading your replies to posts Carly. I'm a little unclear as to why, in this particular thread, you've opted to present your opinion in specific opposition to those that others have offered, instead of just posing it as another possibility, which is all it is. It takes two to bicker, and I haven't dismissed anything you've said; I've merely clarified my own position when you took issue with it (apparently having misread it the first time). You have your interpretation of Kay's marriage, based on what Kay has said, and I have mine (ALSO based on what Kay said).

 

Kay has to decide for herself what is and is not appropriate for her situation. No need to create controversy where none exists. We're all just trying to help Kay.

[midori]

Oh dear, oh dear. Kay, I'm so sorry you're now having to struggle through yet another emotional morass.

 

With the understanding that mine is just one possible way of seeing your situation, I'll stick with it and respond to this development from that perspective.

 

Given what you've said about your husband's mental state, and his family history, I think you're right to be worried. And of course you've got your own well-being to think about -- you can't be super-human and just tolerate and endure through everything, endlessly. Lastly, there are the kids to consider.

 

As for the kids -- how much must they know about the court proceedings? Even if they're old enough to know some of what's going on, they certainly don't need to know specifically why Mom & Dad are appearing in court to testify at someone's divorce hearing. For all they know (or need to know) you two will just be testifying about what you witnessed, as friends of the divorcing couple.

 

It seems to me like you and your husband will need some specific time and space to talk about the court stuff. If the kids need a sitter when you're out, why not go ahead and arrange for a sitter to come a couple nights a week, giving you and your husband the opportunity to sit in a diner and talk about things over some coffee, or to just drive to an empty parking lot if privacy is needed for an intense discussion? Seems pretty clear to me that you'll have things to say to him. And my guess (only a guess!) is that he'll have things to say to you, if he's got the physical/emotional space to do so. If he's afraid that talking to you openly about what has happened, what is happening, and what he foresees happening down the road, he's just not going to talk, period. Why open up a new can of worms when several are open and oozing already? My guess is that he'll only open up if he doesn't feel like doing so will just cause him more problems that he'll have to deal with.

 

As I've acknowledged earlier, my suggestion requires you to be very flexible and understanding and strong. And that's a lot to expect of you, given that you've been through the emotional wringer in the last year or two. The betrayal of a friend, your husband's betrayal, your threatened marriage, deceased parent, etc. Any one of those would be difficult in and of themselves, and together they must be incredibly hard to bear.

 

I don't know what other outlets you have or can create for yourself -- counseling, siblings, trusted friends, but now is definitely the time to tap into them. I'm advising you to be as supportive and understanding of your husband during this time as you can. Not because he "deserves" it, nor because it's your "duty," but because if he's in a place where he just needs a helping hand to guide him out of the mess he's created, don't you want that hand to be yours?

 

My perspective assumes that a) your marriage can be saved, and b) that you want to. Obviously even if a & b are both true, it may not be possible for you to swallow your hurt and resentment -- especially as things come to light during the divorce hearing. I'm certainly not suggesting that you ignore your own needs. It just seems to me that, based on what you've said, your husband is in no position to help you with those things right now. Thus you must seek help elsewhere, especially if you're going to help your husband.

 

Look, I don't usually advise people to be doormats, to accommodate their partners' misbehavior or the consequences thereof. You seem to believe that this situation has grown out of a specific and unfortunate combination of events, and that it doesn't necessarily reflect your husband's true character. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that's where you're coming from, but if I'm right -- if that's what you believe -- then it seems like you'll want to focus on getting through this storm with your marriage intact -- not undamaged, but intact. That might require that you take on more than your fair share of the emotional burden right now. That might require you to call upon others for support. Only if you can handle doing so, of course.

 

And by the way, I'm not suggesting that you should swallow your hurt and fear and doubt indefinitely. I'm just saying that before you can address the structural damage that recent events have inflicted on your marriage, you first need to get it back to port.

[Kay]

HI, all. Still astounds me how perceptive people can be, even with a stranger's situation!

 

Carly, Midori, Tony, others ... your advice, support, care and concern are simply overwhelming. With all my heart, I thank you.

 

In a strange way, I almost feel "empowered" by the challenge I am facing. I am learning a lot about myself and recognize that I am a great deal stronger than I thought. I do have my bad days; I know that's understandable. But, I know that, for my own sake and for the sake of our kids, my goal is to present dignity under even the most adverse conditions. While I don't approve of my husband's behavior, I know I can choose to accept my current situation for the time being. I don't think that makes me a doormat. I'm just trying to find compassion for someone I've known for 28 years.

 

Yesterday, I accepted an invitation to play a round of golf for the first time, with 3 great, fun friends! Whoa, boy ... lucky for me the course was relatively unoccupied! Okay, I really wasn't that bad and it felt so GOOD to try something new and to take my mind off this mess. I am also really fortunate to have a good, solid therapist, 6 (yes, 6!) sisters and a host of friends. They are there if I need them, but I have to be selective about saying too much, in the event that my situation/marriage is salvageable. People, even the most caring of friends/family, find it hard to be objective, when they see someone they love in pain. Does that make sense?

 

I told my husband that I wanted to talk about this upcoming court situation and needed him to be honest about what he thinks/knows his plans are with regard to me. I'm not sure that knowing "details" about his relationship with my ex-friend would be helpful, or only cause more pain, so I've decided in my mind that all I really need to know is if/how I fit in to his future. Luckily, my kids (16 & 13) do not know anything about this court thing, nor do I intend for them to. Incidentally, I have two of the most incredible kids. (proud Mom)

 

I recognize the potential to present myself in a manner to which I would be proud; that is why I choose to try to remain dignified, solid, kind and considerate to my husband. He truly loves them, and has always tried to provide for them - in his own way. No matter what happens to my marriage, he will always be their father.

 

Gee, reading my post so far, I've almost convinced myself that I'm not falling apart after all! In all honesty, I'm just as often "up" as I am "down," but I'm doing the very best that I can. For today.

 

I hope that our posts back and forth don't cause any internal problems with communication/interpretation between anyone. As I said, I take information and opinions from each and every post and apply it as I see fit for my own situation. Every one of you has a great deal of insight and have been incredibly kind, honest and thoughtful.

 

Please keep in touch. Many, many thanks ... Kay