Together for the kids

[Ladyjane14]

Personally, I don't think you stay in the marriage for the sake of the kids. Rather, you make the marriage WORK for the sake of the kids.

 

Yes, this is what I did....

...for nearly 15 years. Whilst now I have true happiness and love, I would not have done things differently.

 

If your marriage had really been 'working'... you wouldn't have cheated and then left your first wife. When a marriage "works", there's no need to do that because both partners are happy and content within the union.

 

Your story sounds to me more like a case of "stayed for the kids", in which people invest YEARS into a situation which was NOT working. Sucky thing about YEARS wasted... you can't get 'em back.

[HappyAtLast]

but seeing my children grown up, happy and healthy with children and successful marriages of their own, I can't second guess myself.

 

As for me, I did not allow myself to get close to anyone for the last fifteen years of my marriage. It was always my intention to leave once my kids were on their own (my wife was well aware of this, although I doubt that she thought I would actually do it). Three months prior to my youngest leaving, I fell in love with my OW and left shortly thereafter.

 

So - I guess "working" has many definitions. It apparently was "working" for my XW, since she was unwilling to help me try to salvage our marriage for all of those years. It was "working" for me in that I believe I gave my children a stable, loving upbringing in a pleasant home with two parents who were both committed to them and, to each other, during that time.

[frannie]

That's the thing that confuses me. Some OW are convinced that the MM lies to his wife and tells her the truth. I'm sure if the MM is so good at convincing the BW (someone he lives with) that he is telling the truth, he is just as good at doing the same to the OW. Maybe even better because the OW doesn't live with the MM and doesn't know his everyday home routine.

 

OW will say that they know more about how the MM feels because there is real love and the BW is in denial or just believing the MM's lies. Truth is, the OW only knows what the MM wants her to know.

 

After a D-day, BW get to view to the real life things that MM does. She is the one that has access to the paper trail, the friends and family, and everything else. The BW has more to go on to determine if the MM is being truthful. The OW only has his word.

 

I think there's a lot of truth in what you say here. But I just wanted to comment on the whole lying and knowing facts thing... not to contradict what you said, but just provide a few more angles.

 

But I'd say that most OW that I've ever spoken to have a great deal of trouble believing what the MM says, simply because he IS lying to his W. That's one of the reasons that OW feel insecure, press for results (MM to leave), and so on... otherwise wouldn't affairs be a breeze? Which they're clearly not. No, the biggest problem for many many OW is probably knowing that he's lying to one woman, so surely he could be lying to me.

 

On the other hand, regarding what you said about 'if he finds it easy to lie to his W, then surely he can lie more easily to his OW who doesn't know him so well' (paraphrasing). I think it's far easier to lie to the BS, given that (unless there's been a d-day) the BS is largely clueless, and lies are mainly lies of omission. The OW, however, has a whole raft of pertinent questions to which MM is usually required to give some pretty full answers. I wouldn't be so certain that BS knows him inside out and the OW is merely an observer. Most affairs I know about, the MM and OW do very little else than discuss the relationship, where it's going, what his intentions are, etc. Now, the MM can lie through his teeth of course (and no doubt plenty do we've all seen it!), but that kind of sustained questioning is different to just being somewhat vague about where you were when you came in unexpectedly late from work.

 

But as you say... after d-day, the situation switches and yes, the BS has a whole lot more information, can ask very direct specific questions, etc. while the OW is left wondering what's going on and what's been said at home. Then I'd say that the BS and the OW were more or less on a level playing field as regards the MM's feelings, who he'd 'rather' be with (if he even knows himself), etc.

[overandout]

I think that if the OW asks the mm to leave home and he says "no"for whatever reason then in a way that is his D Day.

If push comes to shove, what he is saying is that he will rather give up the OW than his family

That is called making a choice in my book.

Maybe I visit a different library.

 

If I want my mm to go on holiday to Athens and he books a holiday to Marbella, then I might think he preferred Spain to Greece.

[frannie]

I think that if the OW asks the mm to leave home and he says "no"for whatever reason then in a way that is his D Day.

If push comes to shove, what he is saying is that he will rather give up the OW than his family

That is called making a choice in my book.

Maybe I visit a different library.

 

If I want my mm to go on holiday to Athens and he books a holiday to Marbella, then I might think he preferred Spain to Greece.

 

Yes, my MM is exactly like that. When push comes to shove he would rather keep his family intact than leave to be with me. And I can't say that I blame him at all for that. His attitude is that things are OK at home, so why mess things up for the kids..? They're too young to have to deal with that kind of thing.

 

We have talked about a d-day (a real one), and he's of the attitude that once the cat is out of the bag that he's been with someone else that he loves for 3 years, things at home are no longer going to be 'OK' (far from it). Once the W finds out about the real circumstances of her marriage, even if she wanted him to stay she'd insist he cuts me out of his life and get back to being a proper family. He says he couldn't hack that.

 

I know there's a flaw in his 'reasoning'... if he would cut me off now, then why not then..? Looking at it logically (and I do ) if he'll put his family unit first now then why not when he's asked to choose..?

 

But you have to look at the real reasons for not leaving: as everyone says, it's not about 'the children' as such at all. They're about being the good guy, not rocking the boat, not disrupting the home, not being the one to initiate change, not being the one leaving his children. To go to her and tell her what's going on is too hard (and he has tried twice... can't have the conversation). To actively choose his own happiness over that of his children is something he can't envisage.

 

But IF she's faced with the evidence she has to initiate those difficult conversations, she's going to be telling him to do something he can't handle and doesn't want to do, she will be forcing him to choose, and things will never be the same again at home anyway. Change will have happened and he didn't need to initiate anything at all.

 

See, it's not about what you'd rather have or rather do. It's about what you're capable of and what you can find it in yourself to do. Most MM can't find it in themselves to break apart their family voluntarily, which is why you very very very rarely hear of a MM putting his ducks in a row and going to his W and explaining that he's leaving. More MM leave following a d-day than at any other time. OK perhaps it's not their first d-day (plenty of them will lie and continue the affair even after discovery... because they can). But it takes the W basically accepting that her M is no longer tenable in order for it to end. You see it time and again, on every forum, looking at affairs and infidelity from all angles.

[Mino]

Frannie, I agree, Mine says the same thing, he does not want to be the bsad guy. But this is also showing us how weak our mm really are. They are capable of coninueing the A with no problem, they are to weak to own up to it, so in the meantime, everybody suffers. They need to grow some balls!!!

[PoshPrincess]

but seeing my children grown up, happy and healthy with children and successful marriages of their own, I can't second guess myself.

 

As for me, I did not allow myself to get close to anyone for the last fifteen years of my marriage. It was always my intention to leave once my kids were on their own (my wife was well aware of this, although I doubt that she thought I would actually do it). Three months prior to my youngest leaving, I fell in love with my OW and left shortly thereafter.

 

So - I guess "working" has many definitions. It apparently was "working" for my XW, since she was unwilling to help me try to salvage our marriage for all of those years. It was "working" for me in that I believe I gave my children a stable, loving upbringing in a pleasant home with two parents who were both committed to them and, to each other, during that time.

 

I have to comment on this as I was a child whose father stayed 'for the sake of the kids'. IMO it was more to do with the fact that he was scared of what his mother would say as he only had the balls to leave once she'd died - anyway, I digress. That's neither here nor there. What I was going to say is that I would have rather he had left years before. It was much harder happening when my brother and I were grown-ups as we were left to pick up the pieces. My Mum was in bits. We had both left home so although we were there for her we couldn't be with her 24/7 and we felt very responsible for her well-being. At least if my Dad had left when we were younger my Mum would've had us to occupy her mind and keep her going (hopefully) and she might have had a chance to meet someone else who she could spend the rest of her life with. Not so easy for a woman in her late 50s!

 

As I say, just my opinion based on my own experience.

[PoshPrincess]

But you have to look at the real reasons for not leaving: as everyone says, it's not about 'the children' as such at all. They're about being the good guy, not rocking the boat, not disrupting the home, not being the one to initiate change, not being the one leaving his children.

 

SO true, Frannie. My exMM said he was there for the kids but he always maintained that he didn't want to be seen as the bad guy in their eyes. He would have quite happily moved out if his W had kicked him out but he didn't want it to look like his decision.

[HappyAtLast]

I have to comment on this as I was a child whose father stayed 'for the sake of the kids'. IMO it was more to do with the fact that he was scared of what his mother would say as he only had the balls to leave once she'd died - anyway, I digress. That's neither here nor there. What I was going to say is that I would have rather he had left years before. It was much harder happening when my brother and I were grown-ups as we were left to pick up the pieces. My Mum was in bits. We had both left home so although we were there for her we couldn't be with her 24/7 and we felt very responsible for her well-being. At least if my Dad had left when we were younger my Mum would've had us to occupy her mind and keep her going (hopefully) and she might have had a chance to meet someone else who she could spend the rest of her life with. Not so easy for a woman in her late 50s!

 

As I say, just my opinion based on my own experience.

 

In my case my XW knew full well that I would be leaving as soon as the children left provided that things did not change in our M. I am sure that it was a very different situation from that of your parents....

[Cliche]

My marriage was unhappy, and my children are so much happier since my divorce. They have flowered into wonderful, joyful, bright individuals.

 

BUT......

 

while I was in my marriage, I could not see the future, and I was TERRIFIED of ruining their lives by moving them into a single-parent home by no fault of their own. I stayed in a grotesquely awful marriage for 4 years for what I believed was the sake of the kids. So do I think many of the MM and MW stay for the kids and mean it? Yes, I do.

[frannie]

Frannie, I agree, Mine says the same thing, he does not want to be the bsad guy. But this is also showing us how weak our mm really are. They are capable of coninueing the A with no problem, they are to weak to own up to it, so in the meantime, everybody suffers. They need to grow some balls!!!

 

 

But Mino, if you think so little of him, why do YOU continue to see him, and hope for a future with him (if this is what your situation is, sorry I don't know your story).

 

If you truly love someone their concerns, character, and dreams should be things that you support, perhaps admire, and at the very least respect..? And if you can't do that, then what's the point of waiting for him or even seeing him..?

 

That's my feeling on the matter, anyway.

[Mustang Sally]

I don't think there can be a blanket statement about "Staying for the kids" vs. "Not staying for the kids" that will fit all situations.

 

Of course, this is obvious.

 

Sometimes better to stay (and reconcile after an A) and sometimes better to go.

 

Marriages and the ending of them (or NOT ending of them) can never have one-size-fits-all solutions. Why do we spend so much time trying to come up with just that?

[SoHotZanzibar]

Now what Mustang Sally wrote above makes the most sense! I have read this entire thread, and I was just about to write the same.

 

This thread would have been much shorter if this was written earlier.

[Mino]

But Mino, if you think so little of him, why do YOU continue to see him, and hope for a future with him (if this is what your situation is, sorry I don't know your story).

 

If you truly love someone their concerns, character, and dreams should be things that you support, perhaps admire, and at the very least respect..? And if you can't do that, then what's the point of waiting for him or even seeing him..?

 

That's my feeling on the matter, anyway.

Frannie, its not that I think little of him, I am hopelessly in love with him. But the excuse of staying for child does not make sense to me. mine is afraid to leave, he does not have the courage, but I know he wants to. UUGGGHHH its a mess, but to answer your question, I have been supportive these 3 years, and I do admire and love him with all my heart.

[Mino]

Yes, my MM is exactly like that. When push comes to shove he would rather keep his family intact than leave to be with me. And I can't say that I blame him at all for that. His attitude is that things are OK at home, so why mess things up for the kids..? They're too young to have to deal with that kind of thing.

 

We have talked about a d-day (a real one), and he's of the attitude that once the cat is out of the bag that he's been with someone else that he loves for 3 years, things at home are no longer going to be 'OK' (far from it). Once the W finds out about the real circumstances of her marriage, even if she wanted him to stay she'd insist he cuts me out of his life and get back to being a proper family. He says he couldn't hack that.

 

I know there's a flaw in his 'reasoning'... if he would cut me off now, then why not then..? Looking at it logically (and I do ) if he'll put his family unit first now then why not when he's asked to choose..?

 

But you have to look at the real reasons for not leaving: as everyone says, it's not about 'the children' as such at all. They're about being the good guy, not rocking the boat, not disrupting the home, not being the one to initiate change, not being the one leaving his children. To go to her and tell her what's going on is too hard (and he has tried twice... can't have the conversation). To actively choose his own happiness over that of his children is something he can't envisage.

 

But IF she's faced with the evidence she has to initiate those difficult conversations, she's going to be telling him to do something he can't handle and doesn't want to do, she will be forcing him to choose, and things will never be the same again at home anyway. Change will have happened and he didn't need to initiate anything at all.

 

See, it's not about what you'd rather have or rather do. It's about what you're capable of and what you can find it in yourself to do. Most MM can't find it in themselves to break apart their family voluntarily, which is why you very very very rarely hear of a MM putting his ducks in a row and going to his W and explaining that he's leaving. More MM leave following a d-day than at any other time. OK perhaps it's not their first d-day (plenty of them will lie and continue the affair even after discovery... because they can). But it takes the W basically accepting that her M is no longer tenable in order for it to end. You see it time and again, on every forum, looking at affairs and infidelity from all angles.

You are soooo very right on this. My mm says two words when he thinks of leaving, FEAR and PANIC, He says he is afraisd of the chaos all around him, fear of not seeing his child. ( she has threaten this) So He is hoping that She will end the marriage when She has enough. This gets me going, since I think is weak, Sure its not easy, but to hand in there hoping the bw makes the move???

[frannie]

You are soooo very right on this. My mm says two words when he thinks of leaving, FEAR and PANIC, He says he is afraisd of the chaos all around him, fear of not seeing his child. ( she has threaten this) So He is hoping that She will end the marriage when She has enough. This gets me going, since I think is weak, Sure its not easy, but to hand in there hoping the bw makes the move???

 

Well, I'm glad to hear you love him (previous post) and respect his decision even though you don't agree with it.

 

Does your MM have a plan to leave when the children are older? Or just a vague hope his W will get tired of him..? Does he love her..? And have you read this thread, in which the idea of having an affair when your children are younger (for their sakes) is discussed? Makes some interesting reading:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123244

 

(very pertinent to this thread in general if anyone else who hasn't seen it wants to take a look).

[frannie]

Oh, Mino... I just read on another thread that you MM got angry and shouted at you when you said you were thinking of dating. Also that he rings to 'check' on you in the evenings.

 

I just don't think that's healthy at all, sorry... way too controlling.

 

Sorry for the T/J, do you have a thread of your own Mino..?

[bonehead]

Staying for the kids.................

 

 

Here is my honest take on this subject.

 

Children way to often are used as an emotional pawn in a marriage going bad. I'm sorry, but women are really good at playing the " your leaving me AND THE KIDS ". People don't seem to be able to see the difference between spouse and parent.

 

But society has made that an easy card to play. And not trying to pat myself on the back, but most men don't have the guts to say " FU their my kids too!!!! " and fight for joint ( or in my case full ) custody. They find it easier to just roll over and give in.

 

 

We need to stop viewing the mother as the better parent when it comes to custody issues. Children need both parents, if at all possible, to have a strong presence in their lives.

[Mino]

Frannie, that was an interesting link, I read about 10 pages. That was the only time in 3 years we fought, but yes, he does like to have control. But I am the same way;)

[Mino]

Frannie, He cares about, and he feels sorry for her, he gets along with her because she is a nice person, they do not argue. But the child is small, she does not work, they have grown apart and live like roomates. He is afraid to leave, fear, of what family, friends..... will say. They have this perfect life to the outside world. Garden, house all is perfectly upkept. But if you look inside, its far from perfect Its all about the image to the world. Very sad to me. We have a lot in common, we can talk for hours, there is lots of passion:love: We fit together in every way. But he is stuck, where is the future? I donno.

[RealityCheck]

Staying for the kids.................

 

 

Here is my honest take on this subject.

 

Children way to often are used as an emotional pawn in a marriage going bad. I'm sorry, but women are really good at playing the " your leaving me AND THE KIDS ". People don't seem to be able to see the difference between spouse and parent.

 

But society has made that an easy card to play. And not trying to pat myself on the back, but most men don't have the guts to say " FU their my kids too!!!! " and fight for joint ( or in my case full ) custody. They find it easier to just roll over and give in.

 

 

We need to stop viewing the mother as the better parent when it comes to custody issues. Children need both parents, if at all possible, to have a strong presence in their lives.

 

Agreed! Both parents play an important role in a child's life. The whole idea of parent allenation sickens me! Selfish, selfish act!

 

If the child is in danger of one of the parents, then there are other avenues that need to be considered.

[GreenEyedLady]

What I've actually found in reality is there are far too few men like BH...

 

Instead what I see in a majority of cases where I am and with people I know is that once a D is final, the dad doesn't see his kids very much at all...and then the only time the dad starts seeing the kids again is when the mom takes him back to court and needs more child support...

 

Both parents are important in a child's life...but sometimes they don't choose to be part of it...

[simplegirl]

Staying for the kids.................

 

 

Here is my honest take on this subject.

 

Children way to often are used as an emotional pawn in a marriage going bad. I'm sorry, but women are really good at playing the " your leaving me AND THE KIDS ". People don't seem to be able to see the difference between spouse and parent.

 

But society has made that an easy card to play. And not trying to pat myself on the back, but most men don't have the guts to say " FU their my kids too!!!! " and fight for joint ( or in my case full ) custody. They find it easier to just roll over and give in.

 

 

We need to stop viewing the mother as the better parent when it comes to custody issues. Children need both parents, if at all possible, to have a strong presence in their lives.

 

 

I agree 100%!! My MM W told me once that he would never leave her and that she would use the kids to make sure he didn't. I have never told him she said that but she does use them all the time.