Open To Receive....Bring it on!!

[silktricks]

If one partner is unhappy chances are the other partner will also be, rels are symbiotic unions that thrive off of each other, one's mood or state CANNOT go unnotice to such point that the other won't be affected. On the contrary to that there would be even deeper problems to look at and that would be, just HOW out of tune could two people be with one another to not know that there was something troubling the other's wellbeing? Talk about sins, and living selfishly.

What does this mean?

[silktricks]

Why do the OPs always have to try (poorly too, I might add) to make the BS in some way responsible for the A, the outcome of the A, or their own actions?

'cuz it's more comfortable that way.

[squeak]

If one partner is unhappy chances are the other partner will also be, rels are symbiotic unions that thrive off of each other, one's mood or state CANNOT go unnotice to such point that the other won't be affected. On the contrary to that there would be even deeper problems to look at and that would be, just HOW out of tune could two people be with one another to not know that there was something troubling the other's wellbeing? Talk about sins, and living selfishly.

 

What makes you come to the conclusion that one partner is automatically out of tune when another's moods or state of mind go South?

[halfarock]

...I think half a rock (brain?)...

And you prove my point. No one on LS makes more of these little personal insults than you. And, you always seem to be bitter. Even your joking tends to be mean spirited. To me you don't come off as a very nice person.

[Trialbyfire]

What makes you come to the conclusion that one partner is automatically out of tune when another's moods or state of mind go South?

Because all betrayed spouses wear swami hats, therefore must be able to see all and know all.

[NoIDidn't]

Because all betrayed spouses wear swami hats....

 

and levitate.

[squeak]

Because all betrayed spouses wear swami hats, therefore must be able to see all and know all.

 

Yeah, I'm just not buying that they are so wrapped in their own world AND selfish AND ignoring the problems.

 

I'm calling dismissal on grounds of stereotype. A blaming sterotype, I could see some validity in the other points, but not this one.

 

And "seeing the troubling the other's wellbeing" is a far leap to "you better know they are having an affair"

[NoIDidn't]

Nobody has a few bad WEEKS at work!!! DAYS, maybe. WEEKS, no way!!!

 

Of course, they are having an A.

 

What are you thinking, squeak?

 

You should know the answer to this by NOW!!

[squeak]

Insert to other readers to avoid confusion:

 

I had edited my post above but initially wrote that by that logic, a spouse troubled by work problems for a few weeks should be read by the other spouse as they are having an affair or else that means the trusting spouse is really really selfish, wrapped up in their own selfish *trusting * world.

[Tsuki no Michi]

TMN

 

I, for one, can't wait until you get PM capabilities. You sound like a really interesting and sincere person. And an avid bible reader/studier. Me too!!!

 

Thanks. I dunno at what point PMs are granted here. Is it based on number of posts? As to studying the Bible, yes I read it a lot. I can't say I understand it any better than anyone else, but I think I understand its purpose which is to help us all create the true kingdom of heaven which is within us. Problem is people fail to see that forgiveness is the key to that kingdom, for without it such can never come to pass. I can wish that it would, that we would all just wake up one morning and forgive our neighbors, but the way we are going I don't think it's going to happen in 10,000 lifetimes, let alone mine.

 

I totally agree with you on your reasons for why you think people use the "judge not" quote so much. They think it knocks the other person down a notch. But it only shows that they are grasping for straws, IMHO.

 

Grasping, perhaps. I rather think they are simply wanting people to understand that their sin is no worse than others in God's eyes, yet people have labelled it so and attached gradients of severity to what they perceive as bad behavior, i.e. speeding is illegal, but hardly a major offense. Then comes maybe shoplifting, selling drugs, assault, armed robbery, adultery, murder, etc. (the location in this list means nothing, it's just the order I thought of them in). In our own society we have assigned gradients to the punishments for these as well, up to and including death in some places. Am I saying that adultery is in the same category as murder or shoplifting? No, but I am saying that some people put it in those categories on their own depending on their point of view. In general people want to believe themselves superior to others. Gradiating offenses serves to fit people into those categories where others can look at them and say to themselves, "well, I may be on the list, but at least I'm not down where *they* are."

 

Historically adultery was a crime because it was associated quite literally with stealing. The wife usually belonged to the husband as property, hence the marriage itself was in a way a kind of intellectual/emotional property of sorts. I think in some ways this attitude remains in our own society even though we recognize women as independent human beings now and possessing all the rights and privileges of men (as it should be). It is my opinion that even inside a marriage a woman (or a man) is the sole owner of her body and soul. That he/she decides to share that with someone else exclusively should not preclude the option of either to decide later on if the relationship is not what is desired that they can opt to leave it. None of this is supported by any of the major world religions because such a concept was foreign to them when they were founded.

 

You are also right on the fruit convo that I started. We ALL display evil fruit at one point or another. But the trick is what Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery - go and stop doing what you were doing that was wrong. The minute we start putting out more evil fruit than good fruit, we are in truly bad condition.

 

I agree. The problem is that unlike some "fruit", the stigma of an affair never goes away. This is not because God cannot or won't forgive you, it's because *people* choose not to because they simply don't *want* to do so. They want you to suffer and the more you do the better. People like to be on the "right" side, justified in their actions, even if it means inflicting cruelty on another person. Personally, I see more *intentional* cruelty toward adulterers than I have ever seen them exhibit toward anyone usually. The collateral damage caused by their sin (selfishness) is not the primary goal, whereas the humiliation, hate, guilt, anger, etc. levelled at the offender *is* the goal of the person inflicting it. It almost seems as if once they feel justified in hurting another person that all the stops come out. Society has told them it's okay to quite literally tear another person to shreds emotionally and psychologically. If this is "an eye for an eye" then no wonder our society continues to be blind.

 

I will say this too. A person that is willing to engage in adultery has already exhibited the biggies that you listed. No one goes into adultery having NEVER sinned before. Pride - "I deserve to be happy". Cruelty - "I don't care if she/he gets hurt as long as I get what I want". Selfishness - "Do unto thy neighbor before thy neighbor does unto you". Coveting - "I want that [person] more, their spouse just doesn't appreciate them or treat them like I do". The list goes on and on. I am not saying that people that don't commit adultery don't have those traits. We do. We just use them in things like gambling, gossiping, and false piety or humility.

 

So by definition then, as long as you use them in ways like you list that you are a better person than someone who has an affair? Personally I disagree, but that's me.

 

Believe me, like you, I am very, very, very hard on myself. I am always willing, sometimes reluctantly, to look into the mirror that is my own heart. Willing to admit fault or wrong-doing. Willing to ask for forgiveness when I have harmed another. Willing to accept my lumps for the wrong too. I believe in taking responsibility for my own motives and actions to the extreme.

 

As I said before, I am certain I will be judged. I do it myself every day of my life. I'm just not certain what others get out of judging me. Does it make them feel better to point fingers? Do they get some kind of righteousness bonus points by claiming to be better than me? Do they feel better about themselves if they can "cast out the sinners" so to speak? Really, this is something I have never understood (even before my current situation) and probably never will.

 

TNM

[Cobra_X30]

And you prove my point. No one on LS makes more of these little personal insults than you. And, you always seem to be bitter. Even your joking tends to be mean spirited. To me you don't come off as a very nice person.

 

Thank you for that wonderful definition of hypocrisy!

[Cobra_X30]

Thanks. I dunno at what point PMs are granted here. Is it based on number of posts? As to studying the Bible, yes I read it a lot. I can't say I understand it any better than anyone else, but I think I understand its purpose which is to help us all create the true kingdom of heaven which is within us.

 

As I said before, I am certain I will be judged.

 

TNM,

 

I can see that you are a very sincere person. I very much understand where you are coming from. If I can help you in any way please feel free to PM me any time.

 

One thing that has helped me in my understanding of the Bible, has been the westminster catechism. I attended private christian schools nearly all of my life, yet found I wasnt growing in understanding. That book helped alot. I feel certain that you understand everything that is truely important.

 

We are called to judge each other. We must seperate the wolves from the sheep. There are many who will seek to lead you astray with false teachings.

[lonelybird]

I remember Bible said "if one brother or sister go astray, we should warn them so they can change their sinful ways", I will look it up later.

 

If you see a brother's cloth has a little fire on it, do you tell him? sure, you will, in order to save him.

 

Justifying sins would make situation worse. Today's society accept sinns and even made some sins popular, that's most people fear. All sins are against God, so rather ask God for forgiveness than convincing people the adultery no worse than anther sin? any justifying sin would delay true repentance? Repentance bring life back, bring hope. but sin lead to death. Only God can unload the burden in heart. If you can shut people mouth up, can you remove the guilty in your heart, can you face God? in this case face God and face your own conscience is much more important than others' opinions

[silktricks]

The problem is that unlike some "fruit", the stigma of an affair never goes away. This is not because God cannot or won't forgive you, it's because *people* choose not to because they simply don't *want* to do so. They want you to suffer and the more you do the better.

 

Do you really feel that the stigma of an affair never goes away? I've got friends who've been in affairs - one couple left their original partners and married each other. I've never seen any evidence of long term judgement, digust or lack of forgiveness towards them. Possibly there is on the part of their original mates, but not by anyone else.

 

People like to be on the "right" side, justified in their actions, even if it means inflicting cruelty on another person. Personally, I see more *intentional* cruelty toward adulterers than I have ever seen them exhibit toward anyone usually.

Outside of the anger that gets tossed around on this site, the only intentional cruelty I've ever seen towards an adulterer was actually by the MM who then forced the (former) OW out of her job - and technically I don't believe she was the adulterer, he was. Everyone else like her far better than him, and that had nothing to do with the affair - it was because he was a jerk!! (I never could understand what she saw in him...)

 

It almost seems as if once they feel justified in hurting another person that all the stops come out. Society has told them it's okay to quite literally tear another person to shreds emotionally and psychologically. If this is "an eye for an eye" then no wonder our society continues to be blind.

This, in my opinion, is true of society towards any and all "violators" of whatever is in vogue at the moment. Adultery is what is discussed on this site, due to the nature of the site. However, out in the "real world" someone who commits adultery is not vilified for their actions. Someone who beats their dog, for example, would be heavily fined, and possibly even imprisoned in the state where I live - that's not to say that it's OK to beat a dog, but 40 years ago, no one would have really thought much about it - it wasn't judged negatively.

 

But adultery, though a titilating subject for discussion (for some) has no impact beyond the pain of the three involved. Forty years ago, yes, society would have judged the MP and OP harshly. Now though, most discussions, that I've heard regarding adultery - like discussions on this site - usually speak far worse of the BS then of either of the people in the affair. Out in the "real world", like here, people seem to assume that the BS must have done something bad to warrant the MP's straying.

 

As I said before, I am certain I will be judged. I do it myself every day of my life. I'm just not certain what others get out of judging me. Does it make them feel better to point fingers? Do they get some kind of righteousness bonus points by claiming to be better than me? Do they feel better about themselves if they can "cast out the sinners" so to speak? Really, this is something I have never understood (even before my current situation) and probably never will.

 

TNM

 

I think too many people in our society feel they are so low that the only way they can get up is by pushing someone else down. And though religion is supposed to help us be better people, instead of being used to raise people up, it is the tool used to push down anyone who is seen as being different.

 

By the way TNM, I really enjoy your posts. Thank-you for being here.

[Tomcat33]

Do you really feel that the stigma of an affair never goes away? I've got friends who've been in affairs - one couple left their original partners and married each other. I've never seen any evidence of long term judgement, digust or lack of forgiveness towards them. Possibly there is on the part of their original mates, but not by anyone else.

 

Outside of the anger that gets tossed around on this site, the only intentional cruelty I've ever seen towards an adulterer was actually by the MM who then forced the (former) OW out of her job - and technically I don't believe she was the adulterer, he was. Everyone else like her far better than him, and that had nothing to do with the affair - it was because he was a jerk!! (I never could understand what she saw in him...)

 

 

This, in my opinion, is true of society towards any and all "violators" of whatever is in vogue at the moment. Adultery is what is discussed on this site, due to the nature of the site. However, out in the "real world" someone who commits adultery is not vilified for their actions. Someone who beats their dog, for example, would be heavily fined, and possibly even imprisoned in the state where I live.

 

But adultery, though a titilating subject for discussion (for some) has no impact beyond the pain of the three involved. Most discussions, in fact, that I've heard regarding adultery - like discussions on this site - usually speak far worse of the BS then of either of the people in the affair. Out in the "real world", like here, people seem to assume that the wife must have done something bad to warrant the husband's straying.

 

 

 

I think too many people in our society feel they are so low that the only way they can get up is by pushing someone else down. And though religion is supposed to help us be better people, instead of being used to raise people up, it is the tool used to push down anyone who is seen as being different.

 

By the way TNM, I really enjoy your posts. Thank-you for being here.

 

 

the wife must have done something bad to warrant the husband's straying.

 

 

the wife or husband in the case of the cheater being the female.

 

I have to admit though that I do see more simpathy towards women who cheat than I do men. For some reason women, since we are not typically the ones deemed as promiscuous by society, find some kind of understanding from others but men are just brushed off as not being able to keep it in the pants, almost like it's predictable. I gotta say for those men who truly were unhappy in their marriages and had their reasons for being in a broken down rel, I feel for them and for the stereotypes that will forever dismiss their sides of why they were unhappy in their marriages.

 

Originally Posted by Tomcat33

If one partner is unhappy chances are the other partner will also be, rels are symbiotic unions that thrive off of each other, one's mood or state CANNOT go unnotice to such point that the other won't be affected. On the contrary to that there would be even deeper problems to look at and that would be, just HOW out of tune could two people be with one another to not know that there was something troubling the other's wellbeing? Talk about sins, and living selfishly.

 

What does this mean?

 

It means exactly what it says, if one partner is not happy in the rel. chances are the other partner will also be unhappy. Couples feed off of each other.

[Cobra_X30]

Do you really feel that the stigma of an affair never goes away? I've got friends who've been in affairs - one couple left their original partners and married each other. I've never seen any evidence of long term judgement, digust or lack of forgiveness towards them. Possibly there is on the part of their original mates, but not by anyone else..

 

They obviously are not wearing thier scarlet letters properly! If they simply adjust this it will allow them to claim victim status once again.

 

But adultery, though a titilating subject for discussion (for some) has no impact beyond the pain of the three involved. Most discussions, in fact, that I've heard regarding adultery - like discussions on this site - usually speak far worse of the BS then of either of the people in the affair. Out in the "real world", like here, people seem to assume that the wife must have done something bad to warrant the husband's straying.

 

Put kids in the mix and you not only get more than 3 involved, you also get to mind rape the next generation. Kudos to the cheaters!

 

I think too many people in our society feel they are so low that the only way they can get up is by pushing someone else down. And though religion is supposed to help us be better people, instead of being used to raise people up, it is the tool used to push down anyone who is seen as being different.

 

Sadly this and all you say has a strong ring of truth. When the church stops policing its own, it gets packed with hypocrites and false teachers.

[silktricks]

the wife must have done something bad to warrant the husband's straying.

 

 

the wife or husband in the case of the cheater being the female.

 

yeah, I went back and edited that

 

I have to admit though that I do see more simpathy towards women who cheat than I do men. For some reason women, since we are not typically the ones deemed as promiscuous by society, find some kind of understanding from others but men are just brushed off as not being able to keep it in the pants, almost like it's predictable. I gotta say for those men who truly were unhappy in their marriages and had their reasons for being in a broken down rel, I feel for them and for the stereotypes that will forever dismiss their sides of why they were unhappy in their marriages.

Well, I see a lot more sympathy for married women who cheat on this site - I actually see less sympathy for them in the real world.

 

 

 

It means exactly what it says, if one partner is not happy in the rel. chances are the other partner will also be unhappy. Couples feed off of each other.

The part I didn't understand what you meant was this part:

 

"HOW out of tune could two people be with one another to not know that there was something troubling the other's wellbeing? Talk about sins, and living selfishly."

 

Did you mean what it sounds to me like? That partners should always be totally in tune with each other, and if not that they are sinning and living selfishly?

[Cobra_X30]

Tomcat,

 

From reading some of your posts, I kind of get the feeling you may have some unreal expectations for a relationship. Hmmmm.... Just a feeling I may be wrong.

[Tomcat33]

"HOW out of tune could two people be with one another to not know that there was something troubling the other's wellbeing? Talk about sins, and living selfishly."

 

Did you mean what it sounds to me like? That partners should always be totally in tune with each other, and if not that they are sinning and living selfishly?

 

 

No I don't mean that at all. Surely you cannot be so caught up in your partner and their every mood, change of emotion, up and down to a point where you live exclusively for the other person and for how they are feeling. I am not that out of touch with reality.

 

An A doesn't happen over night just as the process that leads a person to open their hearts to another human being outside of a union also does not happen over night. During the process in which two committed people start to drift apart there is certian knowledge that things are just not "right" but it becomes a comfrotable managable pattern and just because we have the immunity of the "ring" we feel we can kick back and relax because we are protected.

 

I hear so many times "I had no idea we were having problems...!?!" I mean sure in some cases it is stricly the cheating partner's own agenda out of boredom and there is really nothing wrong at all in the marriage. Some of those OP who are involved with cheaters that have those kinds of rels. admit to that pretty much from the get-go. But those are a few cases, for the most part people who have strayed from their partners were having some deep issues in the rel. and BOTH parties were not where they should be as far as the rel. goes I don't dispute the cheaters were cowards and should have talked it out with their spouses before resorting to a new person, but often the problems are talked about the issues are hit on early on and when the problems start to happen but the rut sets in and the power struggle between the couple starts to pull them further apart the dangerous slope happens.

 

It is as simple as this, he doesn't take out the garbage anymore, I am not going to have sex with him at his beck and call. She doesn't make me feel special anymore, I don't feel the need to go out of my way to make her feel special either. WHATVER the example... and so the subliminal pattern that like a tape worm to he union eating away in a parasitic way at it's own health and wellbeing.

 

SO what I mean by if one person cannot see that the other is unhappy, (you know when you start to let things slip) then there is no way that the other person is making YOU happy.

The duty of a person's commitment to another is to not forego your duties as a spouse and, a spouse's duty IS to ensure the other is being understood, heard and supported.

The duty is not just to be monogamous there are so many other things people commit to do and they swore they would maintain for better or worse. But the only sin people seem caught with condemming is the sin of breaking monogamy. All the other ones are manageble right? I mean rels can live in a state of blissful indifference for quite some time, it's not right but it's NO SIN, not in the same vein as adultery. Right?

Well I think that's wrong, adultery is perhaps the ultimately hurtful way of knowing a person has lost faith in what you have, but what how much faith does one inspire when they live for themselves?

[Tomcat33]

Tomcat,

 

From reading some of your posts, I kind of get the feeling you may have some unreal expectations for a relationship. Hmmmm.... Just a feeling I may be wrong.

 

 

Ok fair enough, educate me then, what would be a realistic expectation of a relationship? In your terms vs mine I mean...

[silktricks]

Put kids in the mix and you not only get more than 3 involved, you also get to mind rape the next generation.

 

So very true. It's always so easy to "forget" the children and how they are affected.

[silktricks]

The duty of a person's commitment to another is to not forego your duties as a spouse and, a spouse's duty IS to ensure the other is being understood, heard and supported.

 

I really agree with just about everything you said in your post, but I especially like this sentence.

 

The duty is not just to be monogamous there are so many other things people commit to do and they swore they would maintain for better or worse. But the only sin people seem caught with condemming is the sin of breaking monogamy. All the other ones are manageble right? I mean rels can live in a state of blissful indifference for quite some time, it's not right but it's NO SIN, not in the same vein as adultery. Right?

 

Well I think that's wrong, adultery is perhaps the ultimately hurtful way of knowing a person has lost faith in what you have, but what how much faith does one inspire when they live for themselves?

 

I agree. In fact I believe that is why often the married person ends up staying with their spouse at D-Day. The reason the affair was entered into is often because the MP has come to believe their spouse no longer loves them, or is ignoring them, or they are not the same priority in their spouses life that they once were. As a result they become unhappy, angry, and go looking for (or happen upon) someone who treats them well. Once they find that their spouse does indeed love them - but got sidetracked - then they realize that they also became sidetracked by another person. Then with many (though not all) relationships, the husband and wife become reconciled with renewed love.

[RealityCheck]

Whew! I just read this whole thread from beginning to end and I STILL don't get the point of this thread.

 

RealityCheck, if you are around, what exactly are you saying? It comes across as if you are saying that OW are some wonderful, happy, charitably minded women who *found* themselves in an affair? If that's the case, what are you saying about the BWs who *found out* about their H's affairs?

 

I am really not getting the jist of what you are saying. Help. Please.

 

Well Helloooooooooooooooo!!!!

 

The purpose of my thread was NOT to compare OW's, BS's, or WWS! In fact, I don't believe I made mention of comparisons at all! Or; was it intended to give the reader the impression that an OW is more charitable than a Bs/WWS, so I have no idea where that came from either!

 

What I did make mention of and I do believe I am in the right forum, is that OW's are not necessarily insecure, incompetent, insensitive human beings. I have peeked on LS from time to time and it is always expressed that OW's are of this nature when this is not ALWAYS the case. I made mention that people have their own reasons that lead them into Affiars and I made reference to either "falling completely in love" or "not wanting commitment". The details of how the Affair came to be don't matter in the grande slam of things. Bottom line, it happened.

 

So when words like choice, evil, and sinner come up, I shutter!! this is why I made mention of "consider". the purpose of using the charitable expamples was to deliver the "don't point a finger when there's three coming back" perspective.

 

I am a believer in "intent" and a believer in "experience". I am a believer in "process" in life.

 

Having said this, I don't believe that most people who have affairs actually say to themselves "my intent is to hurt another". A happening is in motion but the actual "intent" is not to deliberately hurt another. So the experience of an Affair begins to form which is a whole other topic.

 

I made mention of "open mind". An open mind is a consciousness that sees past the personal emotional attachment and sees beyond without falling victim to the circumstance. A consciousness that can feel the emotion whether it be pain, sorrow, anger, compassion, empathy etc.... but does not become attached to the emotion.

 

Now I realize some may not be able to wrap their brain around this, and I don't expect anyone too....simply because I am aware that this is where my consciouness lays while others are content with their own consciousness. Live and let live.

 

I must admit this Thread has been a very interesting read if nothing else. I knew going into this post that it would "Bring on" some fruitful discussions and that is precisely why I used "bring it on" in the subject line! What I found amusing is that some too those few little words as "fighting" words, but that is where their consciouness is. do I judge it? Of course not! Because everyone has their own consciousness of what they do!

[Tomcat33]

I agree. In fact I believe that is why often the married person ends up staying with their spouse at D-Day. The reason the affair was entered into is often because the MP has come to believe their spouse no longer loves them, or is ignoring them, or they are not the same priority in their spouses life that they once were. As a result they become unhappy, angry, and go looking for (or happen upon) someone who treats them well. Once they find that their spouse does indeed love them - but got sidetracked - then they realize that they also became sidetracked by another person. Then with many (though not all) relationships, the husband and wife become reconciled with renewed love.

 

 

EUREKA!!!! we finally see the light. YES YES and YES to EVERYTHING you said. I agree with it all. and THIS is what I have been aluding to all along. I don't think the cheater is EVER excused for reaching out to someone new, but sometimes a couple gets so caught up in the feelings of their unment needs within the rel, it gets so far and out of control that one might not even know where to begin to explain just how far the two have drifted apart, leaving themselves absolutely vulnerable to the attention and very dangerous position of having someone new (which is already competition enough a BS cannot compete with the excitement the WS feels with the "newness" of the attraction to someone else) and add to that the fact that this person DOES meet the unmet needs, well it's NO wonder people actually fall in love with someone else.

 

I know that some people's needs ARE NEVER met, serial cheaters and players are never fully satisfied in a rel. and will cheat, but a person who has had it pretty much all and then feels that for quite some the unmet needs start to outweight the met ones, it is a very dangerous place to be.

 

I stated earlier one of my syblings has an amazing marriage/family well I see them and it takes a LOT of work, they were VERY hard at making it work at making sure the other is happy and made priority and they are TRUE to their vows. I can't say an A would never happen to them, but the dange of them being exposed to someone who will meet their needs outside of their union is less because they do a pretty good job at making sure all the important needs are met.

[Cobra_X30]

Ok fair enough, educate me then, what would be a realistic expectation of a relationship? In your terms vs mine I mean...

 

My point is not to EDUCATE you. That would assume my knowlege and experience is superior to yours, which I assure you is not the case.

 

If you are so inclined as to put down your basic expectations for a successful relationship, I would be more than happy to assist you in reviewing them. Perhaps it would be helpful to inspect what you need from a partner vs. what you want from a partner.