Open To Receive....Bring it on!!

[annabelle75]

WOW. This is turning into its own little superthread.

 

I have a busy morning here at work so I don't really have time to catch up and read everything but I did want to re-enforce what RC said.

 

This original subject matter of this thread was not about OW/OM beinng more charitable than BS or anything stupid like that. It was simply saying that OW/OM are not defined by one action or choice, just like everyone else.

 

I believe those that took offense to it were just reading their own insecurities into what she said.

[lost4ever]

Analogy…

I have worked for a company for 5 years; I do my job, turn assignments in on time, had my “good” moments, and had my “bad”. There’s a new position opening up, I just know I’ll get it, I have showed my devotion to this company for so long, I just know it’s mine.

 

Another person in the office wants this position too, but they have only worked here for 3 months, can you believe they would even apply, I mean, why? This person should just step down, sure they do a great job, but only for three months, they don’t even know the whole picture of the company, who cares how bad they want it, it’s mine!!

 

Now my boss, can you believe them, how would he/she even consider the new employee.

 

Who’s fault is this anyways (mine, for not trying “harder”, the OP for thinking they can just step in my way, my boss for thinking what’s best for the his needs)

 

Are any of us bad, any of us good??

[squeak]

Annabelle and Tomcat, I know others have said this but I really don't consider either of you "other women", maybe inadvertently, but it just doesn't seem fair to give yourself that label. Simply because it is miserroneous.

 

Interesting read, overall I'm not hopeful that BS and OW will ever get rid of their respective stereotypes, or really get the other to admit any wrongdoing through debates, as the source of anger is going to end up coming out in different ways. But it does provide some release, I guess?

 

I do notice these forums seem to be the center of the bible belt, I wonder if anyone has ever done a study to see if any correlation exists between cheating spouses/OM/OW and religious beliefs-they seem to be more so than the average person.

 

Good day and I hope you all find the answers/closure/catharsis you are looking for.

[Tomcat33]

My point is not to EDUCATE you. That would assume my knowlege and experience is superior to yours, which I assure you is not the case.

 

If you are so inclined as to put down your basic expectations for a successful relationship, I would be more than happy to assist you in reviewing them. Perhaps it would be helpful to inspect what you need from a partner vs. what you want from a partner.

 

 

Read my post #244 if you have doubts as to what I meant, and if you think my expectations of a rel as STILL unrealistic then we will have to go deeper into it.

 

As to inspecting my needs they have and always been basic ones, communication, understanding, respect, affection, honesty, seduction, fun, companionship, friendship, reciprocation...etc. what we ALL want. Now my experience has lead me to see that my needs have also been known to change and evolve as I have changed in my own life and due to circumstances. And I have to make it my duty to make that known to my partner, because yes my needs may be basic but I may discover new and evolved needs along the way. I would expect the same from my partner but understand that he may not feel the same way. SO I try to make it my duty to dig deeper when things don't feel right. I can say in any of my last 3 rels I have let things slide to a point of feeling comfortably numb, I did that once and never again. I really have learned from my mistakes.

 

I guess you just learn the hard way that rels are always a work in progress some people are not cut out to work hard.

 

Lost4ever I loved your analogy really made me think.

[squeak]

SO I try to make it my duty to dig deeper when things don't feel right. I can say in any of my last 3 rels I have let things slide to a point of feeling comfortably numb, I did that once and never again. I really have learned from my mistakes.

 

I guess you just learn the hard way that rels are always a work in progress some people are not cut out to work hard.

 

But what do you do when you feel something is wrong, it is sliding towards the comfortably numb/breakdown of communication but your spouse/SO says it is fine the way it is and doesn't see anything wrong?

[silktricks]

But what do you do when you feel something is wrong, it is sliding towards the comfortably numb/breakdown of communication but your spouse/SO says it is fine the way it is and doesn't see anything wrong?

 

That's the problem isn't it... and not an uncommon one.

 

or they don't say that it's fine, but when you're having a problem with something that's going on and they simply ignore it ('cuz that's YOUR problem don't ya know), until you get fed up and react, and then they decide to go have an affair because "you aren't meeting their needs":sick:

 

let's face human relationships are HARD!!!!!

[squeak]

Oooh this thread why why I can't be here too busy but I have noticed a kind of moral relativism that I cannot abide by!!

 

(Aplogies in advance- the posts are on previous page so I may misquote)

 

Cheating is not the same as false humilty or gambling, there is a hierachy and I don't care what a bible says or how it is interpreted!!

 

Nobody can convince me, or the rest of society for that matter, that we should not judge!

 

That is how society keeps its members in check, futile as it my seem on a message board.

[Tomcat33]

But what do you do when you feel something is wrong, it is sliding towards the comfortably numb/breakdown of communication but your spouse/SO says it is fine the way it is and doesn't see anything wrong?

 

 

Well what do you do after you've decided to plunk down a considerable amount of money on a night out at an expensive resataurant and get there you order what you want and the waiter brings you the wrong dish? Do you agree that this is not what you ordered and eat it anyway, or do you let the waiter know that it's not what you wanted? If the waiter refuses to see what is wrong and insists the dish is fine, are you going to eat it anyway or will you try to make him see that given what you ordered it's not correct? if he still refuses to see your point after much deliberation and explanation and you still can't get the point across you still have a choice if you see that this person is not worth the hassle then you can opt to get up and not pay for the meal.

Yeah it's going to be really disappointing and you will still feel hungry and disllusioned with this great restaurant after the experience but you will eat again.

 

I know it's a simplistic example and I take into account the complexities of human relations vs a dinner, but it's more to draw on the effect that there are always options and choices to make. some people are the types who just eat the wrong dish anyway because they are out and it's not so bad. I am more the type who wants what she wants and won't really stop until I can get it but I understand that I won't always get what I want even if I try, but I won't walk away knowing I could have had something if only I had tried. Regret is such a waste of energy.

[squeak]

Now that's a good analogy!

[Tsuki no Michi]

That is how society keeps its members in check, futile as it my seem on a message board.

 

My only comment is what happens when society is wrong or the beliefs of a certain group are not the same as that of others? Heck, my friggin' HOA can tell me what to do *in my own home* even though I may disagree with their policies. Does that make them right? Hardly. But since I need to live relatively close to where I work I am subject to their rules and regulations even if I don't believe in them. The authority to make rules in no way guarantees or even necessitates rightness or wrongness.

 

Besides, I would argue that forgiveness and compassion would do more to keep people in check than any set of laws ever can. But that's me. And I *absolutely* do not believe in a hierarchy of wrongness when it comes to judgemental behavior.

 

TNM

[NoIDidn't]

So by definition then, as long as you use them in ways like you list that you are a better person than someone who has an affair? Personally I disagree, but that's me.

 

Hi TNM

 

I read the whole post, but this part stuck out to me. Trying not to take it personally, as I am sure you meant it generally.

 

But, no, by that definition I am simply saying that the sins you listed are present in those that commit adultery too. Most people in the affair will call those of us not in one on *some* sin or another, forgetting that the adultery isn't the only thing they have ever done. No one comes to the point of adultery with a clean slate in the sinning department.

 

That's my point. Not that me or anyone else that hasn't had an affair (yet) is better than someone who has.

[NoIDidn't]

And I *absolutely* do not believe in a hierarchy of wrongness when it comes to judgemental behavior.

 

I do believe in a hierarchy of wrongness. Its the difference between larceny and grand larceny. If there were no hierarchy of wrongness it wouldn't matter if I stole plastic bling or the Hope Diamond. But in the eyes of the law it matters, and that's not even a moral analogy.

 

But when it comes to judgmental behavior, I guess I need an example of what you are talking about. I don't see the judgmental behavior as the issue. I see the issue being folks wanting to say that my wrong is no different than yours, and that's just not true. A rapist IS different from a some that commits simple breaking and entering. A person that steals to eat is different from the person that steals to enrich themselves.

 

Some may say that to God all wrong is the same. But even that isn't true. God specifically states the things that He absolutely hates like a lying tongue, people that enjoy causing discord, and a haughty heart. There are more than that, but I just listed those.

 

I agree that all wrongs can be forgiven just the same. But I disagree that there are not levels to how wrong something is.

[squeak]

Besides, I would argue that forgiveness and compassion would do more to keep people in check than any set of laws ever can. But that's me.

 

Can you please give me an example, a poignant or even a personal one to uphold that? But please, none from the bible, those don't "speak" to me on a personal level.

 

In my experience people only change for the better after being on the recieving end of a painful experience. When I think of exhibiting compassion and forgiveness in place of force and coercion (not literally-but more in the sense of....just standing one's grounds and pushing to get what was right)-it would have just made it easy to trample on me and I would have lost (vague-I know, too many examples.)

[Trialbyfire]

So much of this discussion is centered around the assumption that the affair is based on love between the third party and the wayward spouse. I'll only add that it's not necessarily the case. Many affairs are purely physical and/or ego/needs-based.

 

Perhaps this is a fiction many need to hold onto. If there's real love involved in an affair, how can people do this to each other?

[squeak]

If there's real love involved in an affair, how can people do this to each other?

 

I had never known until I read some posts/threads here how much pain was involved in being the OW/OM besides the obvious tug of war.

 

-the "is he/she still having sex with their spose"

-the holiday struggle (the ow/om gets the "leftover" days)

-the never ending divorce proceedings alongside the "who will mm/mw pick ?"

-but mostly-the sense that the ow/om has absolutely given up any power and is waiting for the mm/mw for whatever happens to unfold. It sounds COMPLETELY tortorous. If that is true love, then it seems pretty sadistic. It is like agreeing to be treated like a child again, always available/conditioned to scraps and someone elses whims.

 

Besides that I never want anyone's sloppy seconds, that alone seeems like agreeing to be 2nd tier and all the heartache that accompanies....whywhywhy???????????

[RealityCheck]

I had never known until I read some posts/threads here how much pain was involved in being the OW/OM besides the obvious tug of war.

 

-the "is he/she still having sex with their spose"

-the holiday struggle (the ow/om gets the "leftover" days)

-the never ending divorce proceedings alongside the "who will mm/mw pick ?"

-but mostly-the sense that the ow/om has absolutely given up any power and is waiting for the mm/mw for whatever happens to unfold. It sounds COMPLETELY tortorous. If that is true love, then it seems pretty sadistic. It is like agreeing to be treated like a child again, always available/conditioned to scraps and someone elses whims.

 

Besides that I never want anyone's sloppy seconds, that alone seeems like agreeing to be 2nd tier and all the heartache that accompanies....whywhywhy???????????

 

No one looks to be a sloppy second.

 

As far as the why? why? why? The train has been boarded before the crash.

[Trialbyfire]

I agree there's a sadistic/masochistic component to this.

 

In all fairness, the question arises with the relationship between the betrayed and the wayward spouses. How much real love can exist, from the wayward side, in order for him/her to be willing to risk it?

 

To this day, my ex-H claims undying love but as a real NPDer, his concept of anything beyond self-love is very minimal compared to the healthy individual. Months of intensive therapy appear to have helped, not that he will ever be a consideration for a future relationship of any form beyond friendship.

[Tomcat33]

So much of this discussion is centered around the assumption that the affair is based on love between the third party and the wayward spouse. I'll only add that it's not necessarily the case. Many affairs are purely physical and/or ego/needs-based.

 

Perhaps this is a fiction many need to hold onto. If there's real love involved in an affair, how can people do this to each other?

 

And perhaps this a "truth" a wayward spouse would like the BS to believe or something the BS simply chooses to believe. I don't doubt some As are strictly about sex or boredom but you cannot deny that love does happen between the third party and the WS. If it if smells, looks, feels and tastes like love, it is love. It's just that while we are in the in-love phase we only think with our desire, when the feeling calms to a point where we can think more rationally the reality sets in and the severity of what has happened takes a front seat it's only then that all the guilt and regret and ill feelings surface and ultimately destroy any chance of the rel progressing in a healthy manner. At least this is what happened to me, and for what I could see this is what also happened to my ex.

[squeak]

NPDer,

 

Definition of NPDer?

Please don't send me to the acronym page!

 

edit: Narcisstic Personality Disorder-yikes! They are charming sums o snitches

[whichwayisup]

but you cannot deny that love does happen between the third party and the WS.

 

I agree with this to a point because feelings are intense, much more emotional and IN the moment and felt deeper, but the thing is, when push comes to shove, the wandering spouse at some point in time realizes he loves his wife more, and has to choose.

[RealityCheck]

I agree there's a sadistic/masochistic component to this.

 

In all fairness, the question arises with the relationship between the betrayed and the wayward spouses. How much real love can exist, from the wayward side, in order for him/her to be willing to risk it?

 

To this day, my ex-H claims undying love but as a real NPDer, his concept of anything beyond self-love is very minimal compared to the healthy individual. Months of intensive therapy appear to have helped, not that he will ever be a consideration for a future relationship of any form beyond friendship.

 

There is a saying "the only thing that stays the same is everything changes"

 

When two people initially meet their "love" standard at the time can be the same. Things change for whatever reason and in those ever changing phases so does a person. If the two people do not grow together in those phases the dynamic and/or standard changes as well.

[squeak]

And manipulative too, dangerous stuff. (referring to the NPD post above)

[Tomcat33]

I-but mostly-the sense that the ow/om has absolutely given up any power and is waiting for the mm/mw for whatever happens to unfold. It sounds COMPLETELY tortorous. If that is true love, then it seems pretty sadistic. It is like agreeing to be treated like a child again, always available/conditioned to scraps and someone elses whims.

 

 

 

Squeak - that is a VERY interesting thought, really got me with that one.

 

Is that not what true unconditional love is, what a child has for a parent or what a parent has for a child? The "settling for scraps" as many like to call it, is that not what unconditional love is in some respects?

[Tomcat33]

NDP stands for New Democratic Party, Canadian political party. they are kind of like the halfway house for the Conservatives and the Libs. :laugh:

[RealityCheck]

NDP stands for New Democratic Party, Canadian political party. they are kind of like the halfway house for the Conservatives and the Libs. :laugh:

 

 

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:laugh::laugh::laugh: