Open To Receive....Bring it on!!

[Tsuki no Michi]

Love? If people really knew what love was this forum wouldn't even exist.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. It is so easy to sit in judgement over people for the wrongs they have committed against you or others. It is much harder to really and truly forgive someone and to recognize that they too are just fallen people who happened to break some great societal taboo. Yet who are we to judge what is the greater sin, to break apart a relationship that may or may not be what it's supposed to, or to condemn these same people to a lifetime of stigma and heartache without hope of ever atoning for them? Personally I believe God never meant for people to suffer forever, but there are people out there who would love it if some of us did.

 

sorry for the rant...

 

Isn't that what a forum is for?

 

TNM

[Trialbyfire]

I agree wholeheartedly. It is so easy to sit in judgement over people for the wrongs they have committed against you or others. It is much harder to really and truly forgive someone and to recognize that they too are just fallen people who happened to break some great societal taboo. Yet who are we to judge what is the greater sin, to break apart a relationship that may or may not be what it's supposed to, or to condemn these same people to a lifetime of stigma and heartache without hope of ever atoning for them? Personally I believe God never meant for people to suffer forever, but there are people out there who would love it if some of us did.TNM

Funny how baggage never completely goes away, isn't it?

[Touche]

I hope you dont work in food service!

 

:lmao:

 

You and Johan just cracked me up. Well at least we can laugh a little.

 

Look, no one is all evil. We ALL have made mistakes in our lives and will continue to make more. Hopefully, we can grow and be better people. No one is perfect either.

 

I guess this thread bugged me a bit because I saw it as a message. A message that says we should not take accountability for our actions.

 

Sure, it's good to look at our positives. It is. But to dismiss our sins just because we have good in us is counter-productive in my opinion.

 

Who among us, doesn't have crap to work through? We all do. But I don't sit around saying "Well, I'm so great at this and that, etc...." I sit around and think about all that I need to work on.

 

I'm not saying we should tear ourselves apart all the time. But I think we should be held accountable for our sins. The good in us doesn't wipe away the bad.

 

I guess that's my problem with the original message of this thread.

[Tsuki no Michi]

Funny how baggage never completely goes away, isn't it?

 

I wouldn't call it funny, but no, it never goes away. Personally I blame society for that since at least in the Christian faith we're *supposed* to forgive one another since none of us are good enough to get into heaven by ourselves. I find it ironic sometimes how people can claim forgiveness from God for their own wrongdoings, yet continue to judge others for theirs. Please note that this is not to downplay the severity of the consequences an A can have, just that at least as I understand my own faith it is our duty and calling to forgive people, especially those who hurt us. We all have reasons for doing what we do, good, bad or otherwise. None of that matters when you are hurting though, as the human tendency appears very clearly to be the desire to hurt the people who hurt you back. To me that just seems so wrong. Are any of us really that much more perfect than anyone else?

 

TNM

[annabelle75]

:lmao:

 

You and Johan just cracked me up. Well at least we can laugh a little.

 

Look, no one is all evil. We ALL have made mistakes in our lives and will continue to make more. Hopefully, we can grow and be better people. No one is perfect either.

 

I guess this thread bugged me a bit because I saw it as a message. A message that says we should not take accountability for our actions.

 

Sure, it's good to look at our positives. It is. But to dismiss our sins just because we have good in us is counter-productive in my opinion.

 

Who among us, doesn't have crap to work through? We all do. But I don't sit around saying "Well, I'm so great at this and that, etc...." I sit around and think about all that I need to work on.

 

I'm not saying we should tear ourselves apart all the time. But I think we should be held accountable for our sins. The good in us doesn't wipe away the bad.

 

I guess that's my problem with the original message of this thread.

 

I didn't see the message as coming across as that at all. I guess it really just depends on the point of view you are reading it from. I saw it as a statement of , "There is more to us than the label of OW. We are not defined by by one action or choice." I think that is a good message for them all to hear and believe.

 

I see many posts here declaring that OM/OW have low esteem and that is why they accept being and OM/OW. The factuality behind that is debateable, but I often see in the same post a BS would then call the OW/OM an evil whore. I then think, "Perhaps if you weren't calling her an evil whore her self esteem would be better and she wouldn't be an OM/OW." Its all really a matter of approach and the spirit behind it.

 

I have no problem with some one coming in here to give advice out of true concern and who truly wants to help, even if I don't agree with their advice. These days it seems we have a few too many that are coming in here just to be mean and start fights. All it does is make the OM/OW shut down and then they are forced to defend themselves and the A. Usually the original problem they ar elooking for help with gets tossed aside for yet ANOTHER BS/OW debate. Its just not helpful for anyone really.

[Trialbyfire]

I wouldn't call it funny, but no, it never goes away. Personally I blame society for that since at least in the Christian faith we're *supposed* to forgive one another since none of us are good enough to get into heaven by ourselves. I find it ironic sometimes how people can claim forgiveness from God for their own wrongdoings, yet continue to judge others for theirs. Please note that this is not to downplay the severity of the consequences an A can have, just that at least as I understand my own faith it is our duty and calling to forgive people, especially those who hurt us. We all have reasons for doing what we do, good, bad or otherwise. None of that matters when you are hurting though, as the human tendency appears very clearly to be the desire to hurt the people who hurt you back. To me that just seems so wrong. Are any of us really that much more perfect than anyone else?

 

TNM

I've fallen away from the church but was raised Christian. Keep in mind that the old testament does specify "an eye for an eye" and religion in general discusses the consequences for infidelity for both the cheater and the third party to the marriage. I don't think you should be picking sections of a religion to subscribe to, because it's beneficial to self within a specific situation.

[Tsuki no Michi]

Look, no one is all evil. We ALL have made mistakes in our lives and will continue to make more. Hopefully, we can grow and be better people. No one is perfect either.

 

I hope so, but that requires that the rest of society actively help the offenders as well as the bystanders. Condemning one to a lifetime of labels, stigma and hatred does not make any of our lives better. It only makes us bitter.

 

I guess this thread bugged me a bit because I saw it as a message. A message that says we should not take accountability for our actions.

 

I didn't see that same message. What I saw is that we should all learn to forgive each other because none of us are perfect. I know what I did was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I did it. I make no excuses for my actions, and realistically I don't ask that anyone forgive me if they simply cannot. I do think though that it would be healthier for everyone in the long run if they could. People rarely start out with the intent to harm others, but as you say, collateral damage does happen.

 

Sure, it's good to look at our positives. It is. But to dismiss our sins just because we have good in us is counter-productive in my opinion.

 

And to dwell on how bad they are/were, is that not also counterproductive?

 

I'm not saying we should tear ourselves apart all the time. But I think we should be held accountable for our sins. The good in us doesn't wipe away the bad.

 

No, but the good in others can do just that. That is the message of forgiveness as I see it anyway. Is it not what we are called to do to forgive others their sins so as to help heal all of us?

 

TNM

[annabelle75]

Ok, I get this. And I understand it completely. But what I'm asking is why others (not you) still would get involved with a man who is doing the SAME thing with another woman (cheating.) That's all I'm asking.

 

That's good question. I would answer it if I could, but on my behalf it would really only be speculation. I think the question has been answered many times over by the OW that post here. The problem is that most people that don't agree with there choices don't want to believe their actual reasons. Its easier to think of OW being bad people who target married men and have no respect for the sanctity of marriage. Most of the stories here seem to start with a woman meeting an "wounded soul" who says he is in a and marriage and then they feel the need to rescue him and make him happy. Often times its just that simple.

[Tsuki no Michi]

I've fallen away from the church but was raised Christian. Keep in mind that the old testament does specify "an eye for an eye" and religion in general discusses the consequences for infidelity for both the cheater and the third party to the marriage. I don't think you should be picking sections of a religion to subscribe to, because it's beneficial to self within a specific situation.

 

Sort of OT: For what it's worth, the old testament covenant was abolished by the coming of Christ, for those who believe in Christianity anyway. The new covenant replaced that imperfect law with the covenant of love because the former could never bring us closer to God. The latter, however, could.

 

On topic: I am not trying to bring any specific religion into the argument because I know not everyone subscribes to my own beliefs. I was just trying to illustrate that to me my own faith would seem to provide a means of reconcilliation, not just between human-human, but human-God as well. For myself I think reconcilliation of any kind is better than harboring grudges and festering bitterness. I would see all of us learn to love more perfectly, which in the end would mean forums like this would be unnecessary. It would also mean we could somehow learn that there was something better out there for all of us.

 

TNM

[Touche]

I didn't see the message as coming across as that at all. I guess it really just depends on the point of view you are reading it from. I saw it as a statement of , "There is more to us than the label of OW. We are not defined by by one action or choice." I think that is a good message for them all to hear and believe.

 

I see many posts here declaring that OM/OW have low esteem and that is why they accept being and OM/OW. The factuality behind that is debateable, but I often see in the same post a BS would then call the OW/OM an evil whore. I then think, "Perhaps if you weren't calling her an evil whore her self esteem would be better and she wouldn't be an OM/OW." Its all really a matter of approach and the spirit behind it.

 

Oh come on, Annabelle! Are you saying that someone's name calling (which I haven't seen here) would turn someone into an OM/OW? Please tell me that you're not serious!

 

I have no problem with some one coming in here to give advice out of true concern and who truly wants to help, even if I don't agree with their advice. These days it seems we have a few too many that are coming in here just to be mean and start fights. All it does is make the OM/OW shut down and then they are forced to defend themselves and the A. Usually the original problem they ar elooking for help with gets tossed aside for yet ANOTHER BS/OW debate. Its just not helpful for anyone really.

 

......................................................................

[Cobra_X30]

I've fallen away from the church but was raised Christian. Keep in mind that the old testament does specify "an eye for an eye" and religion in general discusses the consequences for infidelity for both the cheater and the third party to the marriage. I don't think you should be picking sections of a religion to subscribe to, because it's beneficial to self within a specific situation.

 

There is a separation between personal justice and the justice God brings. You are called to forgive, but that does not mean evil deeds are not to be punished. Understand the difference?

[Touche]

That's good question. I would answer it if I could, but on my behalf it would really only be speculation. I think the question has been answered many times over by the OW that post here. The problem is that most people that don't agree with there choices don't want to believe their actual reasons. Its easier to think of OW being bad people who target married men and have no respect for the sanctity of marriage. Most of the stories here seem to start with a woman meeting an "wounded soul" who says he is in a and marriage and then they feel the need to rescue him and make him happy. Often times its just that simple.

 

I can see that. So sometimes it's just a matter of simple naivete' and nothing more sinister. Perhaps you're right.

[annabelle75]

......................................................................

 

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the statment they would make. They would come in here and say all this cruel stuff under the pretense of "tough love" and "telling it like it is advice" and in reality they were just being mean. They have no intention to helping anyone.

[Trialbyfire]

Sort of OT: For what it's worth, the old testament covenant was abolished by the coming of Christ, for those who believe in Christianity anyway. The new covenant replaced that imperfect law with the covenant of love because the former could never bring us closer to God. The latter, however, could.

 

On topic: I am not trying to bring any specific religion into the argument because I know not everyone subscribes to my own beliefs. I was just trying to illustrate that to me my own faith would seem to provide a means of reconcilliation, not just between human-human, but human-God as well. For myself I think reconcilliation of any kind is better than harboring grudges and festering bitterness. I would see all of us learn to love more perfectly, which in the end would mean forums like this would be unnecessary. It would also mean we could somehow learn that there was something better out there for all of us.

 

TNM

More OT: Yes, I was aware of that but the balance of what I said, in reference to infidelity still holds true within the New Testament.

 

If there was perfect love and we all loved our fellow man, we would not covet or sin, now would we?

[Touche]

I hope so, but that requires that the rest of society actively help the offenders as well as the bystanders. Condemning one to a lifetime of labels, stigma and hatred does not make any of our lives better. It only makes us bitter.

 

I haven't done that. But I can appreciate what you say here.

 

I didn't see that same message. What I saw is that we should all learn to forgive each other because none of us are perfect. I know what I did was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I did it. I make no excuses for my actions, and realistically I don't ask that anyone forgive me if they simply cannot. I do think though that it would be healthier for everyone in the long run if they could. People rarely start out with the intent to harm others, but as you say, collateral damage does happen.

 

 

 

And to dwell on how bad they are/were, is that not also counterproductive?

 

No it isn't. No one is talking about "dwelling" but just owning up to the the bad and acknowledging it.

 

No, but the good in others can do just that. That is the message of forgiveness as I see it anyway. Is it not what we are called to do to forgive others their sins so as to help heal all of us?

 

I agree with that. But I can only forgive those who recognize that they've done wrong. But that's just me.

 

TNM

 

........................................

[Cobra_X30]

Sort of OT: For what it's worth, the old testament covenant was abolished by the coming of Christ, for those who believe in Christianity anyway. The new covenant replaced that imperfect law with the covenant of love because the former could never bring us closer to God. The latter, however, could.

 

 

TNM, go back and read your Bible. The new testament is a fulfillment of the old, nothing was abolished. If you would like me to explain further start a new thread in the appropriate section.

[Touche]

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the statment they would make. They would come in here and say all this cruel stuff under the pretense of "tough love" and "telling it like it is advice" and in reality they were just being mean. They have no intention to helping anyone.

 

Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean but sometimes what others think of as being "mean" is really well-intentioned. It really IS meant to help. It really IS tough love and "telling it like it is advice." Sometimes it really is just that and nothing more. You don't know what's really in someone's heart and soul when they give advice do you? Why think the worst?

[Cobra_X30]

Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean but sometimes what others think of as being "mean" is really well-intentioned. It really IS meant to help. It really IS tough love and "telling it like it is advice." Sometimes it really is just that and nothing more. You don't know what's really in someone's heart and soul when they give advice do you? Why think the worst?

 

Interpretation of intent is a slippery slope. All we can really do is view the action taken and evaluate its effect.

 

Or I suppose we could ask "hey why did you say that?"

[Trialbyfire]

TNM, go back and read your Bible. The new testament is a fulfillment of the old, nothing was abolished. If you would like me to explain further start a new thread in the appropriate section.

Start the thread. I've always been under the same understanding of the new covenent superceding the old, as well. If you could, you should state what denomination your perspective is coming from.

[annabelle75]

Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean but sometimes what others think of as being "mean" is really well-intentioned. It really IS meant to help. It really IS tough love and "telling it like it is advice." Sometimes it really is just that and nothing more. You don't know what's really in someone's heart and soul when they give advice do you? Why think the worst?

 

I don't see you around here much, but trust me all you have to do is open a long thread and you will find certain people just being vicious. Alot of OM/OW are afraid to even post. I give out most of my advice via pm because I don't want it to get lost amoungst all the attacking responses.

 

I honestly didn't find your posts today to be attacking at all. I think you got kind of caught in the crossfire. Once people calmed down a bit I think we've actually had a pretty decent discussion where we all learned a bit. I know I have.

[Touche]

I don't see you around here much, but trust me all you have to do is open a long thread and you will find certain people just being vicious. Alot of OM/OW are afraid to even post. I give out most of my advice via pm because I don't want it to get lost amoungst all the attacking responses.

 

I honestly didn't find your posts today to be attacking at all. I think you got kind of caught in the crossfire. Once people calmed down a bit I think we've actually had a pretty decent discussion where we all learned a bit. I know I have.

 

Well, I've been around for about 2 years now. I haven't always posted but lurked for awhile. I know what you mean though.

 

And yes, I really think that I learned some things tonight too. It's been interesting.

 

And to respond to Cobra...hee hee..you make me chuckle. You're very funny. Yes, I think you have a point though. Instead of people jumping to conclusions about one's intent why not ASK them what their intent is? How brilliantly simple!

 

Seriously, I think we can learn from this. Why not just ask the person instead of assuming. Your idea is truly brilliant in its simplicity. We should all be slapping our foreheads in unison now!

[Cobra_X30]

Once people calmed down a bit I think we've actually had a pretty decent discussion where we all learned a bit. I know I have.

 

Yes I tend to have that effect on a conversation.

[squeak]

What is it a person has to do to keep their marriage affair proof? I imagine that in time after bills, babies, chores, delegating responsibilities, tiredness, loss of sex life due to new babies, an affair or a fun spunky other person starts looking pretty good.

 

I imagine a husband working 70 hours a week to make sure income is good, going to the gym so he doesn't lose his apperance, reading up to keep conversations intersting, taking a culinary class to improve cooking skills. Surprising his wife with a trip to Bermuda every month, hiring help so they can have alone time, juggling outings with friends. Taking seminars so he can keep up to date in his profession and stat powerful in his field. And all of this in between taking kids out and picking them up and the hours of 8-10PM when he is home.

 

The wife, same as above, but add in wearing go go boots evey night while preparing gourmet dishes and controlling the kids, a sparkling vivacious personality, never a frown, why it should be easy! Arranginmg dates with her husband and keeping things spontaneous all betwenn the time slot of 8- midnight on weekdays and the weekends too.

 

Of course this is all necessary to ensure hubby or wifey never gets bored..or watch out! It seems so impossible, why do people even bother getting married if they can't accept that settling down period, the weight gain, the kids, the routine?

 

This isn't directed at anyone, just my own personal rant. It just seems that it is a cycle that willalways continue. I just don't know if it is possible for people to work as hard on their marriage as may need be, so....wash, repeat, rinse, start over.

[Tsuki no Michi]

That's good question. I would answer it if I could, but on my behalf it would really only be speculation. I think the question has been answered many times over by the OW that post here. The problem is that most people that don't agree with there choices don't want to believe their actual reasons. Its easier to think of OW being bad people who target married men and have no respect for the sanctity of marriage. Most of the stories here seem to start with a woman meeting an "wounded soul" who says he is in a and marriage and then they feel the need to rescue him and make him happy. Often times its just that simple.

 

I think that has a lot of truth to it, even from the MW/OM standpoint. I was that OM, sort of a wounded soul so to speak. I was going through a separation with my now ex-wife and my MW in many ways I know only wanted to help me. And in a lot of respects she did, but suffice to say we got closer than we should have done. Now it is several years later and I admit it is selfish and that I believe her when she tells me her H doesn't respect her, doesn't treat her well so I have remained with her through the upheaval of her struggling to figure out what to do. On one hand she wants nothing more than to be with me for herself. On the other hand if she were to allow it then her children would be hurt by the separation. Also, if she were to leave to be with me then her family, indeed almost her entire support system would for all intensive purposes disown her. That is the part I don't understand. How can they love her and then condemn her at the same time? Because she made a mistake they didn't? Because she fell in love with someone she wasn't supposed to? Yes, it is selfish of her to want to find a way to satisfy both her own wishes and the needs of others. But realistically neither of us know what to do to fix it. I know many people will say just end it, but for those of you who have never loved two people and had to choose between them I doubt you can understand fully what that choice means. My mother did that to me when she broke up with my father. She made me choose between the two of them and though I am much older now and realize how wrong she was to do so, I still very much remember and undestand how hard it is to truly let someone go whom you love with all your heart and soul. The old saying "if you love something let it go..." adage is not nearly as easy or cut and dry as we'd like to think.

 

Anyway, through it all I have tried to be supportive, but I cannot tell her what is best for her. I also cannot obviously tell her that whatever decision she makes it won't hurt someone because it will. I made a promise to myself a long time ago that I would not ever give up a friend because someone else told me it was the right thing to do. I gave up my father because my Mom told me he was evil. I gave up a friend later because someone told me I had to make a choice between her and my now ex-wife. I regret both to this day, though I am finally trying to somewhat make amends with my father. Perhaps it doesn't make sense to some, but that's why I'm still here. I'm sure there are those who will say I am nothing but a man who wants to ruin someone's home, but I don't. For myself I don't know what to do, but I do know that I love her very much, more than I have ever loved anyone or thought I could love anyone. More than that, I actually *like* her as a person and a friend. It's just that this whole relationship may come crashing down around us and I don't know if any of us will survive trying to pick up the pieces. It would be so much easier in this world if forgiveness were as common as condemnation and pain. I may never find forgiveness in this life, but even if I cannot I will do what I can to forgive others because that is what *my* God would have me do.

 

TNM

[Cobra_X30]

Ok, I created a new thread in what is probably the most unused section of this website. I practically had to brush away the cobwebs.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t127000/

 

I started with a quick definition of what Dispensationalism is.