He is moslem, am Xtian but wants me to change? what happens to wedding?

[Annacabana]

While a lot of people fly under that banner, their actual evidence is pretty thin where it counts. The reality is that it's not as black and white as you'd think. While the majority love to rally behind the 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 line of "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?" etc., few seem aware of 1 Corinthians 7:12-14's counterpoint (by the same author, no less) "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband."

 

So, suddenly the picture ceases to be so heavily supportive of the segregation camp.

 

As the above quote demonstrates, it's hardly doing the complete opposite.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

few seem aware of 1 Corinthians 7:12-14's counterpoint (by the same author, no less) "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband.

 

To me this seems to be speaking to a new convert who was already married.

[taiko]

Why not? Nearly every christian I know has done some picking and choosing at some point or other, or listened to a preacher/priest/vicar doing so.

 

If one was to take EVERY passage in the bible literally, then one would be very confused, as there are hundreds of contradictions all the way through it.

 

Divorce is OK by some religions, not by others.

 

I think everyone is united against homosexuality though- which is why Sir Ian McKellen rips those pages out of the bible in every hotel room he stays in. Go Gandalf!

Which is why you read whole chapters and certainly try to rip a paragraph by ignoring the first sentence.

 

So Sir McKellen arguement turned to be so weak his only recourse is to try to make what he disagrees with disappear? Sounds like the Kim's strategy in North Korea.

[allina]

I think you would have been more helpful if you took the time to read my original posts and all the other posts i have put up...

 

I saw your other posts, you posted the same post 5 times or so.

[Jinnah]

If one was to take EVERY passage in the bible literally, then one would be very confused, as there are hundreds of contradictions all the way through it.

 

 

I've read the Bible (entirely) and have not found one contradiction. The people who say there are contradictions have usually not read the entire Bible, or just do not comprehend what is said.

[Jinnah]

So Sir McKellen arguement turned to be so weak his only recourse is to try to make what he disagrees with disappear? Sounds like the Kim's strategy in North Korea.

LOL. Good response.

[sb129]

I've read the Bible (entirely) and have not found one contradiction. The people who say there are contradictions have usually not read the entire Bible, or just do not comprehend what is said.

 

 

Since comprehension is a matter of subjective opinion and interpretation there are hundreds of different interpretations and ways to comprehend the bible. Usually these are heavily influenced by ones beliefs and religion or lack thereof.

 

Since its authors will never be around to clarify or justify their work, its open to debate, and will be ad infinitum.

 

Moai, the resident atheist, gives some absolutely brilliant examples of the bibles contradictions, as does Richard Dawkins, an esteemed academic and one of the greatest scientific analysts alive today.

 

I can't compete with them, nor do I want to plagiarise their words. But their words make more sense to me than many convoluted interpretations of a book that is at best, IMO, a great work of fiction, which has a few good morals and fables in it.

[sb129]

Which is why you read whole chapters and certainly try to rip a paragraph by ignoring the first sentence.

 

So Sir McKellen arguement turned to be so weak his only recourse is to try to make what he disagrees with disappear? Sounds like the Kim's strategy in North Korea.

 

That comparison is a little extreme, especially since gay people have been subjected to some of the worst persecution and discrimination on the planet.

[allina]

I enjoy a good read as well, however I prefer the Iliad and Odyssey. They're just as interesting as the bible but they don't give people any loony ideas, and no one has ever started a war over either text

[sb129]

LOL. Good response.

 

So, no, it wasn't really. However, I can't be bothered to get into an argument about the bible, been there done that, got the t-shirt. agree to disagree etc etc.

 

As for the gay debate.... thats a can of worms I certainly do NOT want to open, especially with a couple of Christians and a Muslim lurking in the background.

[sb129]

I enjoy a good read as well, however I prefer the Iliad and Odyssey. They're just as interesting as the bible but they don't give people any loony ideas, and no one has ever started a war over either text

 

LOL, GREAT response!!

[Jinnah]

Since comprehension is a matter of subjective opinion and interpretation there are hundreds of different interpretations and ways to comprehend the bible. Usually these are heavily influenced by ones beliefs and religion or lack thereof.

 

Since its authors will never be around to clarify or justify their work, its open to debate, and will be ad infinitum.

 

Moai, the resident atheist, gives some absolutely brilliant examples of the bibles contradictions, as does Richard Dawkins, an esteemed academic and one of the greatest scientific analysts alive today.

 

I can't compete with them, nor do I want to plagiarise their words. But their words make more sense to me than many convoluted interpretations of a book that is at best, IMO, a great work of fiction, which has a few good morals and fables in it.

 

Just one question for you... why are you so interested in slandering other people's religious beliefs? You aren't changing the opinions or beliefs of anyone... all you are doing is making me (and I'm sure other readers) wonder why you are so hung up in arguing other against a religion that you care nothing about. Christians know that there are people out there that like to say negative things about being a Christian and serving God/Jesus... we are prepared for that... your negative words aren't making a dent.

 

People from your viewpoint usually say it's because they don't like people from certain religions shoving it down their throats, but no one is doing that to you...no one is forcing you to convert. You are choosing to get on this thread and read about a religious topic. You are on a post where the original poster says she is Christian... obviously other Christians are going to respond... why are you so quick to respond with something sac-religious? Your presence is not helping the original poster, so what is the point?

[Jinnah]

As for the gay debate.... thats a can of worms I certainly do NOT want to open, especially with a couple of Christians and a Muslim lurking in the background.

 

Don't judge what I would say. I am not going to get into an argument about that either, but I will say that my uncle chose the gay lifestyle, but I love him anyway... I just don't agree with his lifestyle choices, but it is not my place to judge him.

[VIP]

my uncle chose the gay lifestyle, but I love him anyway... I just don't agree with his lifestyle choices, but it is not my place to judge him.

 

You are not a real Christian then, because you were a "real" Christian, you would have to consider him a sinner. So you can judge other people for what they do, but you cannot judge your uncle?

[disgracian]

Taiko summed it up wonderfully. You can't pick and choose Biblical verses and bend them to conform to your argument.

Everybody else does. That's necessary when you have a book that says so many diametrically opposed things in one place or another.

 

Bear in mind with 1 Corinthians 7 though, that Paul is basically saying that nobody (Christian or otherwise) should marry unless they can help it. Secondly, he doesn't address the issue of a Christian marrying a non-Christian at all. It can be summed up as:

 

1a. To the unmarried, stay that way if possible.

1b. If not, marriage is the lesser of the two evils (a bit extreme, but that's Paul for you).

2a. To the already married, stay that way.

2b. Unless one of you isn't Christian AND you want to go your separate ways.

 

Of course, the 2 Corinthians verse never mentions marriage either. You can interpret "yoked" to mean marriage, and indeed many do. Though you have to concede that you're reading your own meaning into the verses. The only thing not in dispute is that Paul's only verses specifically pertaining to marriage don't say anything about not marrying outside one's beliefs.

 

Cheers,

D.

[sb129]

Thank you Disgracian.

 

Jinnah, I have just as much right to be advising this poster, and actually have trioed to give her some non-religious specific advice, which, given the circumstances is JUST as important (if not more so) than giving her religious guidance. All religious matters aside, I don't think the OP should be considering marriage to her partner at this stage as there are several factors that need to worked through first, and IMHO I think there may be too many barriers for their R to be a successful, long term one.

How is this unhelpful?

 

I have not once criticised her choice of religion, nor that of her partner. I haven't tried to convince ANYONE to convert, and nor do I want to. I haven't criticised ANYbodys specific religion for that matter, I have just expressed some of my views regarding the topic at hand. There are a few holes in some religious arguments, IMO (if you want to take that so literally and as slander thats not my problem, I happen to think some of yours are pretty up there, but I accept your right to an opinion)

 

Alot of my posts are more humorous than nasty, maybe thats just my overly dry sense of humour trying to point out a few things, perhaps a few people take it too literally and see it as slander.

 

I have noticed that I seem to be the only person copping it in the neck here for having a different attitude towards religion, when there are many people on LS and indeed this thread that have similar views and express them in similar ways.

[sb129]

Vixen, I really do hope things work out for you and you find happiness. i am sorry if my sometimes tongue in cheek attitude towards religion has offended you in any way.

 

I would advise you to think carefully about this matter, and take your time over it. There are many factors to consider, some of which may not even be apparent at this early stage in the relationship. Knowing someone as a friend and knowing someone as a partner is often very different.

 

Marriage is a big commitment at the best of times, and can be a journey that is not always easy, even between people who don't face the obstacles you face.

 

Remember that once you are married, it will be very very difficult to get out of it should you decide AFTER you get married that this isn't the right person/ partnership for you.

You need to be at least 95% certain that marriage is the right option, and I don't think you are there yet, and only time can really tell whether you will get to 95% certainty in the future.

 

All the best!

[Jinnah]

You are not a real Christian then, because you were a "real" Christian, you would have to consider him a sinner. So you can judge other people for what they do, but you cannot judge your uncle?

 

Wow, I can't believe it... people really take what they want out of your words. My uncle IS a sinner, as we all are. Wow, I can't even believe I have to type that.

 

P.S. He has chosen not to live that lifestyle anymore anyway, so he is making the right decision (just so you know)... I really don't want to argue homosexuality now.

[Jinnah]

Everybody else does. That's necessary when you have a book that says so many diametrically opposed things in one place or another.

 

Bear in mind with 1 Corinthians 7 though, that Paul is basically saying that nobody (Christian or otherwise) should marry unless they can help it. Secondly, he doesn't address the issue of a Christian marrying a non-Christian at all. It can be summed up as:

 

1a. To the unmarried, stay that way if possible.

1b. If not, marriage is the lesser of the two evils (a bit extreme, but that's Paul for you).

2a. To the already married, stay that way.

2b. Unless one of you isn't Christian AND you want to go your separate ways.

 

Of course, the 2 Corinthians verse never mentions marriage either. You can interpret "yoked" to mean marriage, and indeed many do. Though you have to concede that you're reading your own meaning into the verses. The only thing not in dispute is that Paul's only verses specifically pertaining to marriage don't say anything about not marrying outside one's beliefs.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Wow, you really need to do more reading (no offense). Maybe I need to start a Christianity 101 thread (lol). If you aren't married and don't have the need to, stay that way. If you have "desires", get married and that is fine. If you are married, don't get a divorce. If there is a non-believer in the marriage, don't leave them for that reason (adultery is the only reason to divorce)... although if they leave you, you are not at fault. This is what all that means, but I must say you really changed the words to make them sound like an extremist wrote it. Those were your words you typed. If you want to be accurate, type it words for word... don't bend it to your will.

[Jinnah]

Thank you Disgracian.

 

Jinnah, I have just as much right to be advising this poster, and actually have trioed to give her some non-religious specific advice, which, given the circumstances is JUST as important (if not more so) than giving her religious guidance. All religious matters aside, I don't think the OP should be considering marriage to her partner at this stage as there are several factors that need to worked through first, and IMHO I think there may be too many barriers for their R to be a successful, long term one.

How is this unhelpful?

 

I have not once criticised her choice of religion, nor that of her partner. I haven't tried to convince ANYONE to convert, and nor do I want to. I haven't criticised ANYbodys specific religion for that matter, I have just expressed some of my views regarding the topic at hand. There are a few holes in some religious arguments, IMO (if you want to take that so literally and as slander thats not my problem, I happen to think some of yours are pretty up there, but I accept your right to an opinion)

 

Alot of my posts are more humorous than nasty, maybe thats just my overly dry sense of humour trying to point out a few things, perhaps a few people take it too literally and see it as slander.

 

I have noticed that I seem to be the only person copping it in the neck here for having a different attitude towards religion, when there are many people on LS and indeed this thread that have similar views and express them in similar ways.

 

While you may have the right to give advise, you need to realize your "dry humor" is offensive when you start "cracking jokes" that are directed towards a religion. Anyone can be offended if someone carelessly makes rude jokes about something they find important (religion), and there is absolutely no need for it. To you there may be a "few holes", but from a Christian viewpoint, that is just because you either haven't read enough (done enough biblical research) or your heart is so hardened that you wouldn't be able to understand (not an insult, just a religious belief).

 

I bet that if I were to start "joking" about the "few holes" I thought to exist in a subject without doing full research, I bet the believers might think my arguments are from an ignorant standpoint. Go read the entire Bible as many times as it takes until you have full knowledge of what it says before you make arguments against it.. that is for anyone who wants to argue anything... do a full research of the subject, not just a line, or a page... all of it. Otherwise, the words said are meaningless. I would hate for you to steer someone else away from Christianity with careless words, when you didn't even have full knowledge of what you were speaking against. Have you ever considered that you could be wrong? What if you were, after you put so much energy into speaking against it and maybe even deterred others?

[Jinnah]

Just a thought... what if I'm wrong and you're right? What did I lose? I would have lived a moral life... I still had fun, found love, had happiness and then died... the end. What if I'M right and you're wrong? You may have lived a moral life, had fun, found love, had happiness, and then died... not the end... hell. Then what?

[Moai]

Just a thought... what if I'm wrong and you're right? What did I lose? I would have lived a moral life... I still had fun, found love, had happiness and then died... the end. What if I'M right and you're wrong? You may have lived a moral life, had fun, found love, had happiness, and then died... not the end... hell. Then what?

 

Nice invocation of Pascal. So as not to hijak this, I will start another thread based on this (and a few other) of your coments. I invite you there to discuss this.

[sb129]

Just a thought... what if I'm wrong and you're right? What did I lose? I would have lived a moral life... I still had fun, found love, had happiness and then died... the end. What if I'M right and you're wrong? You may have lived a moral life, had fun, found love, had happiness, and then died... not the end... hell. Then what?

 

 

I don't believe you are right, so its a moot point IMO. And if i am wrong (against overwhelming scientific evidence) how come YOU decide I go to hell? Hell will be where all my nearest and dearest are anyway...

My jokes have never been downright nasty the way the above post is.

And so comes the condescending self-righteousness of a believer.

 

While you may have the right to give advise, you need to realize your "dry humor" is offensive when you start "cracking jokes" that are directed towards a religion. Anyone can be offended if someone carelessly makes rude jokes about something they find important (religion), and there is absolutely no need for it. To you there may be a "few holes", but from a Christian viewpoint, that is just because you either haven't read enough (done enough biblical research) or your heart is so hardened that you wouldn't be able to understand (not an insult, just a religious belief).

 

I bet that if I were to start "joking" about the "few holes" I thought to exist in a subject without doing full research, I bet the believers might think my arguments are from an ignorant standpoint. Go read the entire Bible as many times as it takes until you have full knowledge of what it says before you make arguments against it.. that is for anyone who wants to argue anything... do a full research of the subject, not just a line, or a page... all of it. Otherwise, the words said are meaningless. I would hate for you to steer someone else away from Christianity with careless words, when you didn't even have full knowledge of what you were speaking against. Have you ever considered that you could be wrong? What if you were, after you put so much energy into speaking against it and maybe even deterred others?

 

Maybe you should joke. It sounds like you need to lighten up anyway, you take yourself (and your opinions) far too seriously. :rolleyes:

I don't put "so much" energy into speaking against it...

No hard heart here either........

 

If the OP found it offensive, I apologised.... nothing was directed at a specific religion OR person, so..... chill out Jinnah, if we can't laugh sometimes, the world is a sad sad place.

 

If you don't mind, I don't really want to read the WHOLE bible. I imagine that if I did, I would reach different conclusions to you anyways, as it would appear that we are on totally different levels in many many ways.

 

 

i look forward to reading your debate with Moai.. Bring it on..

[Jinnah]

 

I don't believe you are right, so its a moot point IMO. And if i am wrong (against overwhelming scientific evidence) how come YOU decide I go to hell? Hell will be where all my nearest and dearest are anyway...

My jokes have never been downright nasty the way the above post is.

And so comes the condescending self-righteousness of a believer.

 

 

 

Maybe you should joke. It sounds like you need to lighten up anyway, you take yourself (and your opinions) far too seriously. :rolleyes:

I don't put "so much" energy into speaking against it...

No hard heart here either........

 

If the OP found it offensive, I apologised.... nothing was directed at a specific religion OR person, so..... chill out Jinnah, if we can't laugh sometimes, the world is a sad sad place.

 

If you don't mind, I don't really want to read the WHOLE bible. I imagine that if I did, I would reach different conclusions to you anyways, as it would appear that we are on totally different levels in many many ways.

 

 

i look forward to reading your debate with Moai.. Bring it on..

 

I was never condescending or self-righteous. Everything I say, I say in love. I always type "no offense", etc. if I think what I am saying might sound harsh. I was never nasty to you.

 

As far as when you asked, "If I am wrong, how come you get to decide if I go to hell?" If you read clearly, I said, "IF I AM RIGHT..." that means if I am right about my religious views, then you would go to hell if you don't accept Jesus as your savior.

 

I don't need to lighten up, as you say. I am already, but I do not take jokes aimed at my religion lightly, nor is it unreasonable of me not to.

 

Bring it on? No thanks... I am not up to fighting with you. If someone is honestly interested in my views for their personal benefit, by all means, I will discuss it. However, I will not discuss my religious view strictly for your entertainment.

[Jinnah]

Nice invocation of Pascal. So as not to hijak this, I will start another thread based on this (and a few other) of your coments. I invite you there to discuss this.

 

Is that how Pascal feels? I must admit I know very little about him.

[sb129]

I was never condescending or self-righteous. Everything I say, I say in love. I always type "no offense", etc. if I think what I am saying might sound harsh. I was never nasty to you.

 

As far as when you asked, "If I am wrong, how come you get to decide if I go to hell?" If you read clearly, I said, "IF I AM RIGHT..." that means if I am right about my religious views, then you would go to hell if you don't accept Jesus as your savior.

 

I don't need to lighten up, as you say. I am already, but I do not take jokes aimed at my religion lightly, nor is it unreasonable of me not to.

 

Bring it on? No thanks... I am not up to fighting with you. If someone is honestly interested in my views for their personal benefit, by all means, I will discuss it. However, I will not discuss my religious view strictly for your entertainment.

 

I don't want to fight either, its not really my bag.

Moais thread is interesting though, and I think you should read it, if for nothing but to see a different facet/ presentation / way of looking at things.

I think you have totally misunderstood my posts/intentions.

You have taken personal offense when NONE at all was directed at either you or your religion. I don't even know what your religion is.

I am sorry if you were offended, but you should be prepared to get offended if you take offense that easily.

Did you miss my apologies for offense if any cause etc etc?

 

If you can't take jokes, thats sad. Everyone should be able to laugh at themselves!

 

Your views can't personally benefit me, just as mine will never personally benefit you. i am totally cool with that, and this thread has gone off topic enough.

However, our COMBINED input may help Vixen, which is why she started this thread in the first place. She can pick and choose which advice she reads/ takes on board.

Discussion should allow people of differing viewpoints to present their opinions..... this is a discussion.