I used to adore H, now I’m not attracted any more

[East of Jupiter]

Personally - I'd rather my man be free to be himself when I'm around - and not have to pretend. The day you get men (there are some exceptions, I'm talking a generality) to stop looking at women, is the day their dead. And - I'm very secure that my man is with me for the whole package of who I am, and he values that way more than just the physical appearance of another woman.

 

Cheating is not about the partner. Therefore, whether the partner is okay with looking or not doesn't make a difference.

 

A man can value their 'total package' and still cheat even while not looking. They can hate their 'half package' (lol), not look and still cheat.

 

But I am saying something very simple: if a man is looking, he's looking!

 

He is looking while you are there and he is looking probably extra when you are not. Oh stranger sex is so much fun (I own the t-shirt).

 

And heck I don't pretend my man doesn't look though he is quite respectful and I appreciate that. We have looked together. LOL! Only for some reason, he doesn't like to look at men with me. Darn! Not fair!

 

Men are usually much more insecure about women looking at men. Anyone else experience this?

 

Now... women -- be honest -- what do you think when you see a guy with his lady and he is checking you out?

[InLimbo2]

-You can read your man's mind? Man, that would save a lot of time wouldn't it?-

 

Nope, but he can be himself with me and share his true opinions and thoughts without me goin nuts. It's not like he and I have never discussed boundaries and anything goes.

 

-Manipulative questions? Why the defensiveness? -

 

It wasn't defensive, it was an observation at how you phrased the question, and that answering it as asked accepted the implication of what you were saying.

 

-You assume a lot of things.-

 

What am I assuming?

 

-If a woman is okay with her man looking, no problem eh? He can look all he wants and his lady has no problem.-

 

um - yep - if he has no problem with it, and she has no problem with it, why would anyone else have a problem with it?

 

-That would be you from what I gather. What's the big deal? Right?-

 

Yep, that would be me - all much ado about nothing.

 

-Again, how does a partner know? I don't suggest, I downtright say it. You never know. -

 

True - one never truly knows - it's all about trust - and frankly, I find it easier to trust a man that feels free to tell me the truth, rather than a guy that I feel I have to keep a tight leash on or under my thumb.

 

-Been there, done that. If he starts showing up with black rose petals remains on his boxers ... LOL!

 

Now, all joking aside -- it really doesn't matter. A wo/man who will cheat need no excuses. Bwahahahahahaah!

 

Even those who never look. And even those who's wives are secure and are open to their looking. -

 

Exactly! It can happen anytime, with anyone. And frankly, I'd rather live my life without trying to control the thoughts, imagination, and feelings of another person. It's exhausting, soul-draining, and it never works.

[East of Jupiter]

well -not all men get upset when women do it -I know plenty that don't.

 

There's a distinction there - yes, it's sexual in nature when they look at an attractive woman - they think "great rack", or imagine her naked, or even imagine doin her - but that's different than actually wanting to do her.

 

Personally, I don't care if my guy looks at a chick and wonders what it'd be like to do her - as long as he doesn't act on it - or try to. Pretty much all my girlfriends are same way. My coworkers are from all very traditional backgrounds, married long time etc - they think same way - what's the harm in looking?

 

50% divorce rate? I dunno.

 

And are women really different? Am I the only one who has looked at a guy that way? Whatever you do, don't tell my husband.

 

I don't mean any harm by it. I'm not going to leave my husband for that guy. So, I guess you are right. No harm in looking.

 

Well, I'm not leaving today anyway.

[InLimbo2]

oh I disagree - it can very much be about the partner. When it comes to affairs rather than stranger sex, it's very much about the partner - most people in that situation have an affair not because the sex acts are better, but because of how that lover makes them feel about themselves when they are with them.

 

Sure -there are some people that are just cheaters - plain and simple - been there, got the t-shirt too. But equating looking at a passing attractive woman with cheating on your mate is preposterous!

 

I have a lotta guy friends -and yes - the guys are raunchier in expressing their appreciation of a fine lookin woman when their women aren't around. I believe that's two fold -most men don't talk raunchy in a group like that in front of women (old school manners) and because most of them are with women that go ape***** when they do!

 

-Men are usually much more insecure about women looking at men. Anyone else experience this?-

 

Because as a generality, women don't do the instinctual looking/visual thing like men - so they find it much more threatening -as in their mind it's more likely when a woman's doing it - it means something - they already know that in their mind, it means nothing.

 

 

Cheating is not about the partner. Therefore, whether the partner is okay with looking or not doesn't make a difference.

 

A man can value their 'total package' and still cheat even while not looking. They can hate their 'half package' (lol), not look and still cheat.

 

But I am saying something very simple: if a man is looking, he's looking!

 

He is looking while you are there and he is looking probably extra when you are not. Oh stranger sex is so much fun (I own the t-shirt).

 

And heck I don't pretend my man doesn't look though he is quite respectful and I appreciate that. We have looked together. LOL! Only for some reason, he doesn't like to look at men with me. Darn! Not fair!

 

Men are usually much more insecure about women looking at men. Anyone else experience this?

 

Now... women -- be honest -- what do you think when you see a guy with his lady and he is checking you out?

[InLimbo2]

I believe the rise in divorce rates are from other factors -not cuz men look at women -they've been doin that since the day they crawled outta the primordial ooze and stood upright

 

Glad you agree -you look, you don't mean anything by it, and no harm in looking.

 

 

50% divorce rate? I dunno.

 

And are women really different? Am I the only one who has looked at a guy that way? Whatever you do, don't tell my husband.

 

I don't mean any harm by it. I'm not going to leave my husband for that guy. So, I guess you are right. No harm in looking.

 

Well, I'm not leaving today anyway.

[new_stella]

-Men are usually much more insecure about women looking at men. Anyone else experience this?-

 

Because as a generality, women don't do the instinctual looking/visual thing like men - so they find it much more threatening -as in their mind it's more likely when a woman's doing it - it means something - they already know that in their mind, it means nothing.

 

This is getting interesting.

 

So if a man feels threatened by his woman’s looking that’s OK. They are not insecure.

It only means insecurity when a woman feels threatened???

[East of Jupiter]

Nope, but he can be himself with me and share his true opinions and thoughts without me goin nuts. It's not like he and I have never discussed boundaries and anything goes.

 

That would have been me in the past. The argument taken to its logical conclusion is that a man will be more honest and himself if you are open with him.

 

Discussing and even agreeing about boundaries is great. But men rarely will be honest with their partner when they WANT or DO cross boundaries.

 

um - yep - if he has no problem with it, and she has no problem with it, why would anyone else have a problem with it?

 

Heck not me! I think this is great! If it works. Besides, what are we talking about "looking?" I think if we talked further we would come to some agreement as to when that "looking" crosses the line.

 

 

True - one never truly knows - it's all about trust - and frankly, I find it easier to trust a man that feels free to tell me the truth, rather than a guy that I feel I have to keep a tight leash on or under my thumb.

 

Is there really only one alternative? Either you let him look or you are keeping him under your thumb? ( I confess, this was my thinking too )

 

Exactly! It can happen anytime, with anyone. And frankly, I'd rather live my life without trying to control the thoughts, imagination, and feelings of another person. It's exhausting, soul-draining, and it never works.

 

Who wants to control all of that? It's hard enough to get him to put the toilet seat down!

 

So you equate not wanting your partner looking as leading to unhappiness? Control? Crazy?

 

It can happen to anyone at any time. But most of the cads I've ever known... were heavyweight champion lookers. Just saying. <shrug>

 

I'm very curious (and not meant in disrespect) and you can ignore the question but what was your parents' marriage like?

 

It can happen to anyone at any time. But most of the cads I've ever known... were heavyweight champion lookers. Just saying. <shrug>

[InLimbo2]

Where did I say that? I believe that both men and women who get bent over their partner looking at others are insecure.

 

We've discussed ad nauseum women's reactions -which everyone keeps saying is about respect - when I believe it's really about insecurity. He's not respecting your insecurity?

 

You asked WHY men seemed to be so insecure when women do it. I gave what I believe to be an accurate reason WHY they may feel threatened. Do I think men can be insecure and feel threatened by it? yep - and I gave the reason I believe they do. Do I think that they should be insecure - nope, still don't.

 

 

This is getting interesting.

 

So if a man feels threatened by his woman’s looking that’s OK. They are not insecure.

It only means insecurity when a woman feels threatened???

[East of Jupiter]

oh I disagree - it can very much be about the partner. When it comes to affairs rather than stranger sex, it's very much about the partner - most people in that situation have an affair not because the sex acts are better, but because of how that lover makes them feel about themselves when they are with them.

 

Then we agree to disagree. Affairs IMO are not about your partner. Only if you are having the affair with your partner can it be about them. It is about the cheater and their inability to resolve their marital issues in a straightforward way (if that is the case). There are people who will not cheat no matter what. Yes it is about how the cheater feels -- not how the spouse feels or how the cheating partner feels. It is a selfish way of making yourself feel better. MHO

 

Sure -there are some people that are just cheaters - plain and simple - been there, got the t-shirt too. But equating looking at a passing attractive woman with cheating on your mate is preposterous!

 

I don't equate looking with cheating. That is proposterous! I agree.

 

But I do believe that looking may and often does often lead to it. All cheating starts with the same thing -- looking at a person that attracts you. I can't remember of any one single cheater who does not start their story the same way ... "it was instant attraction" and "it was harmless looking" replace "looking" with subsequent "talking" "sharing" "touching"...

 

I have a lotta guy friends -and yes - the guys are raunchier in expressing their appreciation of a fine lookin woman when their women aren't around. I believe that's two fold -most men don't talk raunchy in a group like that in front of women (old school manners) and because most of them are with women that go ape***** when they do!

 

What do you mean by "raunchy?" I've known a lot of raunchy women! And what do you mean by expressing their appreciation?

 

A look? A whistle? A loud yelping? A humping of the leg? LOL!

 

-Men are usually much more insecure about women looking at men. Anyone else experience this?-

 

Because as a generality, women don't do the instinctual looking/visual thing like men - so they find it much more threatening -as in their mind it's more likely when a woman's doing it - it means something - they already know that in their mind, it means nothing.

 

You lost me here.

 

I always thought men are more insecure about women looking because they feel women are like them... if they look, they are looking! LOL!

[InLimbo2]

-That would have been me in the past. The argument taken to its logical conclusion is that a man will be more honest and himself if you are open with him. -

 

Yes, I do believe that is true.

 

--Discussing and even agreeing about boundaries is great. But men rarely will be honest with their partner when they WANT or DO cross boundaries. -

 

That's talkin bout cheaters, and inherent in cheating is lying.

 

-Heck not me! I think this is great! If it works. Besides, what are we talking about "looking?" I think if we talked further we would come to some agreement as to when that "looking" crosses the line.-

 

Yep, I'm sure we could. Tho those might even be a bit different, eventually we'd both hit 'that's over the line"

 

-Is there really only one alternative? Either you let him look or you are keeping him under your thumb? ( I confess, this was my thinking too )-

 

Honestly, that may very well be a reaction to the great majority of postings I see on these boards - women who freak over their man goin to a strip club, watching porn etc - seems a pervasive bead on these boards that even thinking about another woman is tantamount to cheating and the guy is a cad and deserves to be dumped -harshly. But I have to say - most women I've seen or known seem to be on one extreme or the other - no middle ground.

 

-Who wants to control all of that? It's hard enough to get him to put the toilet seat down! -

 

Evidently lots of women if you read these boards enough.

 

-So you equate not wanting your partner looking as leading to unhappiness? Control? Crazy?-

 

I see it as trying to control a nature encoded response that men do unconsciously and without malice - twisting it to be about disrespect - and throwing a hissy fit when they do it. Does that lead to discontent, unhappiness, fights? Evidently - read about it all the time on these boards.

 

-It can happen to anyone at any time. But most of the cads I've ever known... were heavyweight champion lookers. Just saying. <shrug>-

 

I've also seen upstanding pillars of the community, respected family men, with nary an air of impropriety to be found to be cheaters, liars, and worse.

 

-I'm very curious (and not meant in disrespect) and you can ignore the question but what was your parents' marriage like?-

 

I don't mind answering. My parents were childhood sweethearts who grew up together and went their separate ways after high school graduation - father to Marines for a few years, mother to the Navy for a few years, then recruited to be a FBI Special Agent for a few years during the Cold War. They married in '58, had babies in '59, '60, and '61 (me). My mother always worked (rare in those days) - when we were young she worked nights and dad worked days - until we were old enough to be latch key kids (even rarer in those days). They both died in '05, 4 months apart - so that makes them married what? 47 years? Did they have a happy marriage? I know they had rough patches - but yes, they were happily married - probably happier than many of their peers - my mother had the independence and job skills etc that she didn't need my father to survive. Did my father ever look at other women? yep - as I got older I was more savvy and was aware of it every once in awhile - wasn't like he was always drooling at women -but if a particularly fine woman crossed his path, he was aware and checked her out - and he didn't try to hide it - probably because my mother never cared about it or took issue with it.

[East of Jupiter]

Where did I say that? I believe that both men and women who get bent over their partner looking at others are insecure.

 

We've discussed ad nauseum women's reactions -which everyone keeps saying is about respect - when I believe it's really about insecurity. He's not respecting your insecurity?

 

I think the best we can do is speak for ourselves.

 

And YOU believe that any woman who does not feel good about their partner "appreciatin a good lookin woman," automatically suffers from self esteem.

 

Perhaps there is a chicken/egg component ... perhaps, if he continues to look around, you may eventually start questioning your self esteem.

[East of Jupiter]

This is getting interesting.

 

So if a man feels threatened by his woman’s looking that’s OK. They are not insecure.

It only means insecurity when a woman feels threatened???

 

What did I say about us women buying into men will be men crap?

 

Hook, line and sinker!

[InLimbo2]

-Then we agree to disagree. Affairs IMO are not about your partner. Only if you are having the affair with your partner can it be about them. It is about the cheater and their inability to resolve their marital issues in a straightforward way (if that is the case). There are people who will not cheat no matter what. Yes it is about how the cheater feels -- not how the spouse feels or how the cheating partner feels. It is a selfish way of making yourself feel better. MHO -

 

we really aren't that far apart on this - look what you wrote further down - instant attraction - instant connection - sharing - that's what I was talking about - how the lover makes the cheater feel about themselves - not just purely sex. Sure - sometimes it's a bout a quick physical fling - but in a true affair - it's emotional - and that emotional bond is formed by how the lover makes the cheater feel about themselves when they are together. I am not disagreeing with you about their inability to resolve their marital issues or divorce, or that there are people that will/won't cheat no matter what.

 

-I don't equate looking with cheating. That is proposterous! I agree.-

 

Good - could you go talk to some of the chicks on here that post crying about their man lookin at other women? And how goin to a strip club and seein other women dance for them is cheating?

 

-But I do believe that looking may and often does often lead to it. All cheating starts with the same thing -- looking at a person that attracts you. I can't remember of any one single cheater who does not start their story the same way ... "it was instant attraction" and "it was harmless looking" replace "looking" with subsequent "talking" "sharing" "touching"...-

 

Well, an affair has to start with them looking at each other, it's kinda required lol. But it doesn't necessarily go the other way. I'm sure we could do a study and find that everyone that has cancer at some time in their life drank milk - but it wouldn't be a logical conclusion that drinking milk causes cancer would it? Not everyone that ever drank milk gets cancer.

 

-What do you mean by "raunchy?" I've known a lot of raunchy women! And what do you mean by expressing their appreciation?

 

A look? A whistle? A loud yelping? A humping of the leg? LOL! -

 

Oh I've long subscribed to the theory that women can be way rauchier than men - tho we rarely do it in front of men. I've watched guys I know be more sedate and quiet when their SO was there -and when they aren't they'll be more open - direct their buddies to look or say "look at the rack on that one" etc. Hmm -sorry - don't know any guys that hump legs - not the kind I'd wanna hang out with

 

 

-You lost me here.

 

I always thought men are more insecure about women looking because they feel women are like them... if they look, they are looking! LOL!-

 

Nope. That's because you operate under the impression that men and women think the same - and they don't. That's not a cut or disrespectful. We don't - we're hard wired different. I think women's lib and being independent strong women is fantastic - I'm surely independent and strong - as was my mother before me and my daughter after me. However, I think sometimes it's taken too far and we fight against those inherent differences, rather than accepting them and working with them.

 

In the case we're discussing -looking at others. Here's what I believe goes thru a man's mind:

 

Man looking at hot woman passing him on the street: wow, nice rack....imagines her naked....checks the image to see if she's a natural blonde...thinks about his 10am meeting with the boss.....reminds himself to call back the client that was ticked yesterday.....remembers he doesn't have cash for lunch and better stop at ATM.....lord look at the legs on that brunette....they'd look great wrapped around my head...better stop at Starbucks next to the office.....

 

Man out with his woman and he notices she checked out the guy that just walked by:

 

guy that's secure: she looked, she thought he was hot or liked what he was wearing

 

guy that's not so secure: damn, she just looked at him - what's he got that I haven't got? does she think he's better lookin? is she unhappy and looking to move on?

[InLimbo2]

-I think the best we can do is speak for ourselves.

 

yep, and I've expressed my opinion

 

-And YOU believe that any woman who does not feel good about their partner "appreciatin a good lookin woman," automatically suffers from self esteem.

 

Hmm, not quite - subtle difference - it's not about 'feeling good' about him looking, it's about being indifferent to it because it's minor and inconsequential. And to flip out over it - yes, I believe the woman has real self-esteem issues.

 

-Perhaps there is a chicken/egg component ... perhaps, if he continues to look around, you may eventually start questioning your self esteem.

 

Nope, through all the trials of my life and the life experiences - finally, my self esteem is not based on nor does it emanate from a man

[InLimbo2]

Sooo, what you are saying is that men are not at all biology/DNA/nature encoded different than women? Other than anatomy, we are identical creatures?

 

 

What did I say about us women buying into men will be men crap?

 

Hook, line and sinker!

[East of Jupiter]

--Discussing and even agreeing about boundaries is great. But men rarely will be honest with their partner when they WANT or DO cross boundaries. -

 

That's talkin bout cheaters, and inherent in cheating is lying.

 

So is looking.

 

-Is there really only one alternative? Either you let him look or you are keeping him under your thumb? ( I confess, this was my thinking too )-

 

Honestly, that may very well be a reaction to the great majority of postings I see on these boards - women who freak over their man goin to a strip club, watching porn etc - seems a pervasive bead on these boards that even thinking about another woman is tantamount to cheating and the guy is a cad and deserves to be dumped -harshly. But I have to say - most women I've seen or known seem to be on one extreme or the other - no middle ground.

 

And you feel that their feelings are somehow not significant why? How do you know that these men who are going to strip clubs and checking out other woman are not looking to cheat?

 

It has been my experience that by the time a woman makes it to a support group, she has passed the middle ground phase.

 

And really, don't we all get to define what cheating means to us? See for me, it is lying -- anytime I am led to believe something that is not true, I feel cheated out of decisions about my life based on my own needs, not my husbands. As women are we only to cater to our man's desires or needs or as you put it "instict?"

 

So if lets say it's true. The woman is insecure (the nerve!) and it makes her feel more insecure if her partner is looking at other women. Is she to subjugate her feelings for the sake of her man's happiness?

 

Not this woman anyway. <changing t-shirts>

 

My answer? Hit the door buddy!

 

On the one hand you think that being honest and setting boundaries is the right thing to do. Telling your partner you are not comfortable with that is just as valuable.

 

If the partner can't deal with that? He can tell his wife to hit the door!

 

 

I don't mind answering. My parents were childhood sweethearts who grew up together and went their separate ways after high school graduation - father to Marines for a few years, mother to the Navy for a few years, then recruited to be a FBI Special Agent for a few years during the Cold War. They married in '58, had babies in '59, '60, and '61 (me). My mother always worked (rare in those days) - when we were young she worked nights and dad worked days - until we were old enough to be latch key kids (even rarer in those days). They both died in '05, 4 months apart - so that makes them married what? 47 years? Did they have a happy marriage? I know they had rough patches - but yes, they were happily married - probably happier than many of their peers - my mother had the independence and job skills etc that she didn't need my father to survive.

 

It sounds like you had two great individuals for parents. I'm sorry to hear of your loss.

 

Did my father ever look at other women? yep - as I got older I was more savvy and was aware of it every once in awhile - wasn't like he was always drooling at women -but if a particularly fine woman crossed his path, he was aware and checked her out - and he didn't try to hide it - probably because my mother never cared about it or took issue with it.

 

I suspected as much. Seeing your father do this with no consequences (divorce, or as far as you know not part of their "rough patches") may have left the impression of you that this is how things work and that it is okay. After all, your parents appeared to have a lengthy, happy marriage.

 

But honestly, a father checking out other women in front of their daughter is innapropriate. JMO But I understand better why you think as you do.

 

I am going to ask my husband what he thinks about doing same in front of his sons.

[East of Jupiter]

Man looking at hot woman passing him on the street: wow, nice rack....imagines her naked....checks the image to see if she's a natural blonde...thinks about his 10am meeting with the boss.....reminds himself to call back the client that was ticked yesterday.....remembers he doesn't have cash for lunch and better stop at ATM.....lord look at the legs on that brunette....they'd look great wrapped around my head...better stop at Starbucks next to the office.....

 

Yeehaw!

 

I agree that guy is NEVER going to cross boundaries. He is going to be the perfect husband at all times because he really doesn't want to plunk that woman, he just wants to look at her and wish it. And if that woman actually came on to him? He will certainly remember that his wife would only be okay with him looking and simply run home to have sex with the wife. Because, well, they talked about it.

 

Do you know if this worked, there would be little to no cheating going on? I mean all we have to do is be open, talk about boundaries and not be insecure when your man is rubber necking every good looking woman that crosses his path.

 

Good luck hun. I do hope that your man is the exception to the rule. They seem so rare these days. But it's possible and I do wish you the best.

[InLimbo2]

-So is looking.

 

So is looking what? Cheating? Lying? How?

 

-And you feel that their feelings are somehow not significant why?-

 

Because I think it's just plain stupid and they need to grow up and get over it- I'm entitled to my opinion.

 

-How do you know that these men who are going to strip clubs and checking out other woman are not looking to cheat?-

 

I don't. Tho I really doubt that many cheaters fiend a partner in a strip club. My issue was with these women saying that them even being in a strip club is cheating!

 

-It has been my experience that by the time a woman makes it to a support group, she has passed the middle ground phase.

 

And I think people sometimes have an emotion - and look it up on google - and then gravitate to the boards that support their emotion/opinion and ignore the ones that don't. Seen it plenty here - people tell a poster they are overreacting, wrong, unreasonable etc - and the fly off the boards in a fit of rage rather that stopping and looking inward

 

-And really, don't we all get to define what cheating means to us?-

 

Sure, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to buy it. I once knew a woman who didn't want her husband to work in an environment with any females at all. Did she define her own idea of what was a reasonable boundary? sure - doesn't mean it was sane or reasonable.

 

-See for me, it is lying -- anytime I am led to believe something that is not true, I feel cheated out of decisions about my life based on my own needs, not my husbands. -

 

agreed about the lying - but how does this relate to the topic at hand? and - I make decisions based out of both our needs, wants, desires when acting as a couple.

 

-As women are we only to cater to our man's desires or needs or as you put it "instict?"

 

lol -hardly. I don't subscribe to a long ago mentality of cater to your man and being subservient. But I also believe we shouldn't try to 'train out of' them inherently male characteristics and try to make them into copies of us emotionally and mentally.

 

-So if lets say it's true. The woman is insecure (the nerve!) and it makes her feel more insecure if her partner is looking at other women. Is she to subjugate her feelings for the sake of her man's happiness? -

 

nope, she shouldn't subjugate her feelings for the sake of her man's happiness, she should find what's missing inside of her that the simple act of a man looking at a woman can shake her whole sense of security and self-esteem.

 

-Not this woman anyway. <changing t-shirts>

 

My answer? Hit the door buddy!

 

On the one hand you think that being honest and setting boundaries is the right thing to do. Telling your partner you are not comfortable with that is just as valuable.

 

If the partner can't deal with that? He can tell his wife to hit the door!-

Yep, I said early on then they should find a partner that doesn't mind it. However, most men would rather just hide it when they do it.

 

-It sounds like you had two great individuals for parents. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. -

 

Thank you

 

-I suspected as much. Seeing your father do this with no consequences (divorce, or as far as you know not part of their "rough patches") may have left the impression of you that this is how things work and that it is okay. After all, your parents appeared to have a lengthy, happy marriage. -

 

I'm sure it wasn't the subject of any of their rough patches - my mother lived until I was 43 years old - married, divorced, and with kids - we had lots of discussions about marriage, divorce, kids etc - I knew my mother's opinions on matters. I don't go just by my parents marriage - I'm surrounded by friends, colleagues, etc - and none of them think twice about men looking at women - they aren't threatened by it at all. I KNOW this is how it works with a great many happy couples and that it is okay

 

-But honestly, a father checking out other women in front of their daughter is innapropriate. JMO -

 

That's just what I was talkin about - it wasn't that my father ever intentionally did that in front of me or my sister - or even my brother - it was just an instinctual reaction - he didn't even think about it.

 

-But I understand better why you think as you do.-

Because as a child and as an adult woman -who's been married - is in a fantastic relationship - and is a mother - has seen numerous very happy secure women who aren't bothered at all by this?

 

-I am going to ask my husband what he thinks about doing same in front of his sons.

 

how old are your sons? go ahead -ask him if when his sons hit puberty and they were together and saw a good lookin gal if one of them ever cracked a comment and they laughed and male bonded over it? or if the father gasped and averted his eyes telling his son that he can't look at another female as it's inappropriate. ask him if he knows any guys who have gone to their son or son-in-laws bachelor parties and looked at the flicks, the dancers, or laughed at the raunchy acts or jokes? How's he feel about that? Does he feel that's morally wrong?

 

Oh - but wait - aren't you the one that says all men lie about this stuff when they know their woman has an issue with it?

[InLimbo2]

LOL - you really DO take an idea and run it out to implausible lengths.

 

That's what I believe goes on in a guy's head when he instinctually looks at a woman he passes on the street.

 

Whether he remains a faithful husband or he follows her down the street and gets her to go bang him - is purely about him and what kind of man he is. It's the particular man and his character that is important -not the fact he looked. Otherwise, how do you explain that some men would follow her and cheat - and some wouldn't?

 

Nope, that's not all we have to do - you left out the most important part - partnering with a man that is trustworthy to not cheat.

 

Again - the last part -it's something I saw in one of your earliest posts -this belief that all men are dogs and will lie and cheat given the opportunity - unless you keep a close eye on them and a tight leash. You make sweeping generalizations about men and their nature as a gender based on your belief system/experience, yet summarily dismiss any other generalizations about the gender based on science and research.

 

I have to ask - if you believe this about men - how do you stay married? So far in our postings - you subscribe to the belief that men lie and cheat - that it's inherent in them (however, you summarily dismiss that it's possibly inherent in them to look). That discussing boundaries and talking about them and agreeing on them is not protection against them straying. Obviously you feel that looking at other women is wrong and is a real issue for you. How do you know your husband doesn't when you aren't around? And - when you are together - don't you find it exhausting to have to ride herd on where his eyes and mind is to make sure it's not on any other woman? Not to mention the fallout/consequences if he does?

[JamesM]

Well I choose to believe my man is one of the 10% on the planet that loves his partner enough to not do those things.

 

I came into this late, but this struck me funny. Believing your man doesn't masturbate, look at porn, or check out women...does that mean he doesn't, or you choose to believe he doesn't?

[JamesM]

Cheating is not about the partner.

 

East of Jupiter, we have agreed on a few things....even though I am a guy (I guess I need more rope yet to hang myself ...see your earlier post), but here we don't agree.

 

Yes, it is about the partner. It may not always be the fault of the partner, but it is many times about the partner. And before you give me more rope so I can hang myself, please listen. This will apply equally to men and women.

 

People in marriages cheat for many reasons, but sex is not usually the only reason. It is a big one. And certainly because a guy looks at other women does not make him a cheater. If he ogles them crassly, this is certainly rude and disrespectful. But looking at a woman and admiring her does not even mean he envisions her in bed. Yes, I have done it/do it...I am not one of the 10% I guess. The funny thing is I have tried to envision (just being honest) the woman in bed, and I am not even interested. No, it is about the look.

 

When someone cheats in their marriage, they do it many times out of passive anger. This does not make it the fault of the partner, but yes, many times if the partner had fulfilled the missing need, no adultery would have occurred.

 

 

I am going out on a limb here, and i will use myself as an example. Say that I have little to no sex in my marriage...I do at times. I have a choice....live with it, leave(or cheat) it, or (try to) fix it. I HAVE A CHOICE....that is correct, but to say that my wife is a completely innocent partner is incorrect. (And yes, she would agree that she is not innocent.) I know for a fact that when we have lots of sex, then that choice of leaving is not even in consideration. However, when she told me that she no longer wanted sex (before I fixed much of our problem), then I had to fight the decision of looking for an affair. So, she said, "No more sex." Based on that, many men would have simply said, "Then I will get it elsewhere." For someone looking at the marriage to say that his cheating had nothing to do with his partner would not be objective. Most men are not actively looking for an affair because they want sex. NO, they choose an affair when presented with the opportunity, because it offers something that is missing "at home."

 

And many women (and men) cheat because they miss the emotional connection with their partner. So, if their partner had been more observant and realized that conversations and listening are important to her, then this affair would have been avoided. Once again, the partner who is being mistreated begins talking with someone who shows devoted attention. The conversations and friendship progresses into an affair. So, again, to say that the affair had nothing to do with the partner is avoiding much evidence.

 

It takes two to tango and two to tussle. In most cases, the affair is the result of something that has been committed or omitted by the cheater's partner. It is the fault of the cheater for choosing to break the marital bond of trust, but the partner in many cases has set the stage for the temptation of his/her partner who cheated. To expect a person to keep trying to fix a marriage when the partner has no interest to do so or to change is preposterous. Yet he/she has vowed to do so. When he/she weakens and doesn't, we can hardly say that it is only his/her responsibility.

 

Our responsibility in marriage is not only to honor our marital vows, but it is to make it very easy for our partner to honor his/her marital vows.

[totalbtch]

I never meant to register and post, but after this, I simply had to.

 

Call me sick or whatever, but what happened to me is something completely opposite. Or similar. You decide.

 

During a few years of our marriage, my H would look at other women constantly and sometimes would comment them. I was young and, like many girls here, I thought that was ‘normal’. Everyone did it after all!

 

I didn’t like it, but I never mentioned it. I felt it’s like saying someone ‘I don’t like your big nose! Change it!’

 

I never said a word to him; I dealt with it every time on my own and tried to convince myself that wasn’t a big deal. For a while, it worked.

 

Fast forward a few years - I was getting older and my looks slightly deteriorated. Slightly, insignificantly even, but (like many women) I was sensitive to that.

 

On one hand I had men hitting on me all the time.

 

On the other hand I had him drooling over other women without a chance in hell to do them.

 

So I thought ‘You poor, poor horny man! You want them, but you can’t have them. Instead of looking at me, you want something better. Unlike you, I CAN have other men – very handsome, sexy men. They are practically begging me to have sex with them.’

 

And so I did!

 

I had an affair with another man, just in spite. To show him that someone wants ME, not all those passing strangers.

 

I didn’t really want that other man. I DID IT BECAUSE OF MY HUSBAND, NOT BECAUSE OF MY OWN DESIRES.

 

The story, of course, doesn’t end there.

 

The other man actually falls in love with me. And the drama is been going on for years.

I feel like complete b*** with both of them.

 

After so many years and self hatred and confusion – I blame my H.

I he, so to say, ‘had eyes only for me’ when I was so deep in love with him, none of this would’ve happened. I'm sure of it.

 

I sought help for this, once I realised what’s going on.

I found some support groups, I had counselling.

I found out I wasn’t the only one and my reaction is not that unusual. Apparently, many people (especially women) react in a similar way.

 

Think I’m crazy, but that is my story.

Maybe it can help someone.

[rainfall]

I came into this late, but this struck me funny. Believing your man doesn't masturbate, look at porn, or check out women...does that mean he doesn't, or you choose to believe he doesn't?

 

 

 

I choose to believe him when he tells me this. If he does look at porn he does a very very very good job at hiding it from me. However I don't think thats the case.

[harlow]

My guy looks at other women, too. I hate driving anywhere with him. Whenever we are at a red light he will look at a woman in the car next to us and stare, then does a double take and sometimes a triple take after the light has turned green. This hurts me. I am not overweight or ugly, other guys look at me, but this behavior makes me feel unattractive and unwanted by the man that supposedly loves me.

[2old4this]

I am an evolved man.

 

I look...but I don't stare. I am subtle. I am quick. I am tricky with the second look.

 

No need to offend the wife. No need to embarrass the kids.

 

Get your look in quick guys. Besides, the imagination will fill in the details of what you miss or forget. And the imagination will be better than the real thing. Usually.