the other woman manifesto

[GreenEyedLady]

LOL... I could say the same to you... however, that wasnt my point.

 

You were describing your R. I supplied a word you may otherwise not think of yourself. I dont view convenient as a positive or negative word in this situation... perhaps you do. If thats the case, I apologize no offense intended.

 

The question mark signifies the uncertainty (in this case whether the word fits).

 

Im not going to tell you what to think... I offer polite introspection. Take it or leave it.

 

Well of course you wouldn't tell me what to think and even if you did, it wouldn't work...

[Cobra_X30]

Well of course you wouldn't tell me what to think and even if you did, it wouldn't work...

 

Ha! Wouldnt dream of it. I can point something out for you to consider... and thats it!

[Cliche]

The very nature of affairs...that they're hidden, that the relationship is kept secret, that OW can't call the MM any time and anywhere she feels like it, that MM goes home and sleeps with another women every night (and OW KNOWS it), that OW has no claim to MM's materialistic goods, has no rights or voice if he is injured or incapacitated, has no presence in his family's or friends eyes...doesn't that all imply that the OW is always "settling" and has no rights, status, creedence or importance in MM's life?

 

What is their worth, other than being at MM's beck and call?

 

Is getting a few "I love you's" and "you mean so much to me's" and "I miss you's" enough?

 

Not for me. Talk is cheap. When it's time for MM to respect and acknowledge you, that's when you'll know what your worth is.

With the exception to a claim on his material goods, which I don't give a sh*t about, and no legal rights if he is incapacitated, which, I will admit, does cause me some angst, nothing else in your post even remotely resembles the R MM and I have.

[Love4Eternity]

Very interesting post...

[LucreziaBorgia]

I dunno, I still don't think its very disrespectful to a woman to initiate a relationship with her that can only exist as long as his wife doesn't find out. Even the most delightful of MM/OW relationships I'm reading about here would no doubt change dramatically with a solid Dday and exposure. I see a lot of "I'm happy with MM and he is happy with me" and I guess that happiness allows people to see past the obvious: a relationship which relies on lying to someone and keeping it hidden is not a respectful one. I only see OW realizing that post Dday, when MM either forces her further underground and limits his time and contact with her, or when he spills the details of his affair to his wife and marriage counselor, and turns his back on her completely on the OW to 'work on his marriage'. Or... when he finds an OOW. That usually does the trick.

 

Now, I'm aware that there are exceptions - some MM are separated and intend to divorce, OW or no OW and don't care if anyone knows. Some MM have open arrangements which allow them to date outside of marriage. Some MM have not so open arrangements, but have a W who consistently looks the other way. This isn't about them, really. Its more about the garden variety MM who is simply eating cake and has no intention of losing his marriage.

[Herzen]

Most MM in asymmetric affairs --he's "really" married, she's not--respect their GF's. The betrayed wives are the ones whom they disrespect.

 

Even after the Affair is discovered, the MM, in striving to save his family and marriage (often in that order), puts the Affair on the back burner. That's to be expected, and he intends no slight. First things first--as they say.

 

An Affair, like any relationship, involves trade-offs: time spent with the OW is short but intense; the MM "sleeps" with his wife, but he "loves" his OW, etc.

 

And many Other Women enjoy the attention, the seduction, the Game.It's only when the Game is up, after D-day, that reality bursts the Affair bubble and the lovebirds awaken from their collective oxytocsin-induced erotic trance to learn that their mutual Pleasure is causing much Pain.

 

To kill an Affair publicize and scrutinize it.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Most MM in asymmetric affairs --he's "really" married, she's not--respect their GF's. The betrayed wives are the ones whom they disrespect.

 

I agree with this to a certain extent - yes, a MM can respect the OW insofar as respect can be given in an entirely disrespectful context, just as the MM can completely disrespect his W by having an affair in a context that is otherwise seen as respectful.

 

That is why OW are seen as predators, and BW's as victims - because of context I guess. The OW's relationship is seen as inherently disrespectful and she knows it - so therefore, by allowing herself to get into something like that she must be a predator. The BW is seen as a victim, because her marriage is seen as inherently respectful and she did nothing except get cheated on.

 

Now if the OW gets cheated on with an OOW, she is seen as "getting what she deserves" rather than a victim like the BW is simply because her relationship with MM is seen as inherently disrespectful to begin with. Few people feel sorry for an OW who gets cheated on with an OOW but plenty of people feel sorry for a BW who gets cheated on. Its all in the context, I guess.

[Impudent Oyster]

With the exception to a claim on his material goods, which I don't give a sh*t about, and no legal rights if he is incapacitated, which, I will admit, does cause me some angst, nothing else in your post even remotely resembles the R MM and I have.

 

So you're saying you go out in public with MM and he introduces you as his girlfriend? You're saying his friends and family (including his wife) knows how important you are to him and that he's in a relationship with you? He gives you the same acknowledgment and prominence in his life that he gives his wife?

 

If that is the case, then I stand corrected and you are getting the respect you deserve. I don't really consider you an "other women" though, more of a girlfriend whose boyfriend is in an open marriage.

[Impudent Oyster]

I dunno, I still don't think its very disrespectful to a woman to initiate a relationship with her that can only exist as long as his wife doesn't find out. .

 

BINGO! We have a winner!

[Impudent Oyster]

Most MM in asymmetric affairs --he's "really" married, she's not--respect their GF's. The betrayed wives are the ones whom they disrespect.

 

 

How is it respectful to insist that your "girlfriend" not be allowed to call you at your home? How is it respectful that she can't come into your place of business and give you a kiss? How is it respectful that on Holidays she can't see you because you're with the people who are your first priority, your wife and kids, while she is relegated to waiting for a text message or some other discreet means of communications? How is it respectful that if she were to become pregnant that you'd practically have a coronary and consider your life was shot to hell? What would you do then, and please, don't even tell me you'd divorce your wife, marry the OW and make an honest woman out of her.

 

Seriously, what do most MM do in that situation? I'd venture to guess their reactions wouldn't be considered respectful. Not exactly the same reaction the MM has when his wife gives him the joyful news now is it?

 

Respect my a$$.

 

Let's face it, MM don't have any character or integrity, they don't even respect themselves, and they sure as hell don't respect women who have to hide their dirty little secret.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

Now if the OW gets cheated on with an OOW, she is seen as "getting what she deserves" rather than a victim like the BW is simply because her relationship with MM is seen as inherently disrespectful to begin with. .

 

This I don't agree with. It's not getting what she deserves so much as it is getting what she should expect. The OW KNOWS the MM will lie and cheat, so it should come as no surprise that if he's doing it with her, he'll do it to her.

 

So it's not that she deserves it, just that it's to be expected, and one wonders why it should come as a surprise or even bother her. Afterall, she's already onboard with cheating. She's already given it her stamp of approval by agreeing to participate in it.

 

The wife typically has no idea that her H is capable of cheating.

[Herzen]

I agree with this to a certain extent - yes, a MM can respect the OW insofar as respect can be given in an entirely disrespectful context, just as the MM can completely disrespect his W by having an affair in a context that is otherwise seen as respectful.

 

That is why OW are seen as predators, and BW's as victims - because of context I guess. The OW's relationship is seen as inherently disrespectful and she knows it - so therefore, by allowing herself to get into something like that she must be a predator. The BW is seen as a victim, because her marriage is seen as inherently respectful and she did nothing except get cheated on.

 

Now if the OW gets cheated on with an OOW, she is seen as "getting what she deserves" rather than a victim like the BW is simply because her relationship with MM is seen as inherently disrespectful to begin with. Few people feel sorry for an OW who gets cheated on with an OOW but plenty of people feel sorry for a BW who gets cheated on. Its all in the context, I guess.

 

It's "moral standing": the betrayed spouse has it (she was there first and is his legal spouse); the OW lacks it (she was there second,is a marital interloper and is not the MM's legal spouse). Sympathy for the betrayed OW ("BOW"?) is in short supply because the OOW is merely doing to the OW what the OW did to the betrayed spouse.

 

 

The "sympathy chain" does not extend very long, unless all posters are Other Women.

 

Respect/legitimacy is a predicate for sympathy, and for most, the illegitimate OW gets no respect and, as a result, little sympathy.

[RealityCheck]

I agree with this to a certain extent - yes, a MM can respect the OW insofar as respect can be given in an entirely disrespectful context, just as the MM can completely disrespect his W by having an affair in a context that is otherwise seen as respectful.

 

That is why OW are seen as predators, and BW's as victims - because of context I guess. The OW's relationship is seen as inherently disrespectful and she knows it - so therefore, by allowing herself to get into something like that she must be a predator. The BW is seen as a victim, because her marriage is seen as inherently respectful and she did nothing except get cheated on.

 

Now if the OW gets cheated on with an OOW, she is seen as "getting what she deserves" rather than a victim like the BW is simply because her relationship with MM is seen as inherently disrespectful to begin with. Few people feel sorry for an OW who gets cheated on with an OOW but plenty of people feel sorry for a BW who gets cheated on. Its all in the context, I guess.

 

I enjoy reading your posts. Your perspectives I find are very objective and are seen from both angles without judgement.

 

I have experienced both BS and OW though my affair did not happen until 7 years after my M. I have my reasons why I entered into an A and carrying emotional baggage from my M is not one of them.

 

I agree with much of what you post, and there certainly is a lot of talk about disrespect and self respect towards the OW. For me as a BS I have to say I felt very disrespected by my H's infidelity in fact, more so than when I was in the position of an OW from the MM because I wasn't married to the MM.

 

Any thoughts?

[justice]

Most MM in asymmetric affairs --he's "really" married, she's not--respect their GF's. The betrayed wives are the ones whom they disrespect.

 

Even after the Affair is discovered, the MM, in striving to save his family and marriage (often in that order), puts the Affair on the back burner. That's to be expected, and he intends no slight. First things first--as they say.

 

An Affair, like any relationship, involves trade-offs: time spent with the OW is short but intense; the MM "sleeps" with his wife, but he "loves" his OW, etc.

 

And many Other Women enjoy the attention, the seduction, the Game.It's only when the Game is up, after D-day, that reality bursts the Affair bubble and the lovebirds awaken from their collective oxytocsin-induced erotic trance to learn that their mutual Pleasure is causing much Pain.

:)To kill an Affair publicize and scrutinize it.

 

 

Herzen is right on target with this point, especially the last line!

I exposed my exH's affair to the light, it did kill it. What I couldn't get over was my issue of mistrust once I found out the truth, and with that, ended my M. You wouldn't believe how fast the betrayers run for the hills once the light of truth burns them.

[Herzen]

 

 

Herzen is right on target with this point, especially the last line!

I exposed my exH's affair to the light, it did kill it. What I couldn't get over was my issue of mistrust once I found out the truth, and with that, ended my M. You wouldn't believe how fast the betrayers run for the hills once the light of truth burns them.

 

Thanks, Justice.

 

Secrecy helps insulate the illicit lovebirds from shame and guilt. One the Affair is exposed to the harsh light of day and private and public censure, pleasure bursts out of the Affair like air out of a punctured balloon.

 

The spotlighted lovers feel exposed, ashamed and naked.

Those strong emotions are bad for good sex.

[frannie]

The very nature of affairs...that they're hidden, that the relationship is kept secret, that OW can't call the MM any time and anywhere she feels like it, that MM goes home and sleeps with another women every night (and OW KNOWS it), that OW has no claim to MM's materialistic goods, has no rights or voice if he is injured or incapacitated, has no presence in his family's or friends eyes...doesn't that all imply that the OW is always "settling" and has no rights, status, creedence or importance in MM's life?

 

What is their worth, other than being at MM's beck and call?

 

Is getting a few "I love you's" and "you mean so much to me's" and "I miss you's" enough?

 

Not for me. Talk is cheap. When it's time for MM to respect and acknowledge you, that's when you'll know what your worth is.

 

Of course words aren't enough. There are enough OW on here who either currently have, or did have, far more than 'I love you's' etc.

 

The things things you specify are only part of a marriage/relationship, and you must realise they conveniently ignore much more: things that don't support your argument, which is hardly balanced.

 

An affair being 'hidden'... of course, to some extent or another all affairs must be this (even if it is only the W who is ignorant of the facts). But does that mean much..? Not necessarily: not everyone needs to be open and acknowledged to feel good about themselves, and the converse isn't necessarily true: to be hidden does not imply lack of respect or regard. Or perhaps we could say that hiding an OW implies nothing regarding her, and everything regarding disrespect to the wife. But all those are merely points of view.

 

Similarly, unless one is married one has no rights to another person's property or say in how they are treated. So I have no rights to MM's property..? Guess what..? He has no rights to mine either (mine being substantially greater, btw. lol).

 

For the rest of it I won't argue (again) about how many nights he spends where, because it's largely irrelevant, and specific to my relationship.

 

I get your general point, and to be honest, I think a lot of what you say is probably true of an awful lot of affairs. But come on, let's take the generalisations out of this and just stick to specific relationships. How would it be if people went onto infidelity and started generalising about how BSs are wrong to take back cheaters because 'once a cheater always a cheater' and other nonsense statements..?

 

Really, generalisations are pointless, aren't they? (generally )

[justice]

Thanks, Justice.

 

Secrecy helps insulate the illicit lovebirds from shame and guilt. One the Affair is exposed to the harsh light of day and private and public censure, pleasure bursts out of the Affair like air out of a punctured balloon.

 

The spotlighted lovers feel exposed, ashamed and naked.

Those strong emotions are bad for good sex.

 

You know when I was first going through all the he!!, I learned the exsposure thing from this very site. It was the one key element that worked 110% better than anything else I did in that situation. The OW was mortified, people that I'd told, pointed at her and whispered and laughed at her in public. Even the workplace, where both she and my exH worked was let in on what was going on under their noses, she was let go, and he got a very stern lecture from the owner of the company.

It got to the point that unless he was at home or with me, everyone from the convience store clerks that I knew (where he used to buy the condoms for him and ow) to the bank and the grocery store would call and let me know what time he was there, who he was with and what he purchased. I have a friend that is a local law enforcement officer, he was a very good friend to me during this time too and helped so much. It got to the point of where niether my ex H nor the OW could go anywhere together. So yes, Exposure is the key. It may have even been you that put me onto exposure, I don't remember now, but if it was you, thank you.

[luvmy2ns]

The spotlighted lovers feel exposed, ashamed and naked.

Those strong emotions are bad for good sex.

 

And therein lies the whole point. If all it is is "good sex" which, once exposed, is no longer good, then where is the respect in that type of relationship?

 

Of course, I'm generally speaking, but I'm sure most would agree that MOST affairs wind up with the OW left behind, not the BW.

[frannie]

I dunno, I still don't think its very disrespectful to a woman to initiate a relationship with her that can only exist as long as his wife doesn't find out. Even the most delightful of MM/OW relationships I'm reading about here would no doubt change dramatically with a solid Dday and exposure. I see a lot of "I'm happy with MM and he is happy with me" and I guess that happiness allows people to see past the obvious: a relationship which relies on lying to someone and keeping it hidden is not a respectful one. I only see OW realizing that post Dday, when MM either forces her further underground and limits his time and contact with her, or when he spills the details of his affair to his wife and marriage counselor, and turns his back on her completely on the OW to 'work on his marriage'. Or... when he finds an OOW. That usually does the trick.

 

Now, I'm aware that there are exceptions - some MM are separated and intend to divorce, OW or no OW and don't care if anyone knows. Some MM have open arrangements which allow them to date outside of marriage. Some MM have not so open arrangements, but have a W who consistently looks the other way. This isn't about them, really. Its more about the garden variety MM who is simply eating cake and has no intention of losing his marriage.

 

LB I don't think there's a lot here which factually is untrue (about most affairs ending post d-day, etc.).

 

And perhaps you're right that it is showing in some sense a lack of respect to both the OW and the BS to engage in an affair. Possibly also to oneself as the WS. But that completely depends on a subjective view of respect. And can we include the BS in here if she choses to reconcile, or is that not lacking self-respect?... I'm not coming down one way or another on that one, either.

 

If there is such a 'lack of respect' all round by that definition then surely respect is a scarce commodity in relationships, with or without infidelity.

 

My contention with your original post on this was to do with the idea that somehow the OW was being disrespected and put down below the W (in MM's eyes)... Perhaps that is the case in some/many affairs, but it's certainly not a given. Not for individuals and how they view other people. Yes, you can argue that a specific act 'shows a lack of respect', true... but my argument was that the OW isn't necessarily held in any disrespect in the MM's own mind/heart. No more than he feels he 'doesn't love' his W in some cases... despite being incredibly unloving in his actions.

[Herzen]

You know when I was first going through all the he!!, I learned the exsposure thing from this very site. It was the one key element that worked 110% better than anything else I did in that situation. The OW was mortified, people that I'd told, pointed at her and whispered and laughed at her in public. Even the workplace, where both she and my exH worked was let in on what was going on under their noses, she was let go, and he got a very stern lecture from the owner of the company.

It got to the point that unless he was at home or with me, everyone from the convience store clerks that I knew (where he used to buy the condoms for him and ow) to the bank and the grocery store would call and let me know what time he was there, who he was with and what he purchased. I have a friend that is a local law enforcement officer, he was a very good friend to me during this time too and helped so much. It got to the point of where niether my ex H nor the OW could go anywhere together. So yes, Exposure is the key. It may have even been you that put me onto exposure, I don't remember now, but if it was you, thank you.

 

Wow, what a story of a community acting in concert against an illicit love affair.

 

My guess is that type of "community moral mobilization" is more likely to happen in small towns than large cities. Still, I just imagine that this was hard on everyone.

 

I hope your life is back on track, Justice, and that all is well.

[justice]

Wow, what a story of a community acting in concert against an illicit love affair.

 

My guess is that type of "community moral mobilization" is more likely to happen in small towns than large cities. Still, I just imagine that this was hard on everyone.

 

I hope your life is back on track, Justice, and that all is well.

 

It is a small town, everyone seems to know everyone else here.

It didn't help that the OW was also married;)

It was hard on everyone, I get along with most of the people who live here and due to my work, I knew so many of them and really liked them too.

My life is back on track, I'm divorced now, no one is lying to me, the ow is gone completely she moved away somewhere, I heard canada but I'm not sure how accurate that is. My ex is still wanting me to give him another chance but I think that would be going backwards and it isn't something I want so I'm leaving it where it is, I'm quite happy just being who I am and not having to deal with all of the deception and pain. Thanks so much.

[frannie]

This I don't agree with. It's not getting what she deserves so much as it is getting what she should expect. The OW KNOWS the MM will lie and cheat, so it should come as no surprise that if he's doing it with her, he'll do it to her.

 

So it's not that she deserves it, just that it's to be expected, and one wonders why it should come as a surprise or even bother her. Afterall, she's already onboard with cheating. She's already given it her stamp of approval by agreeing to participate in it.

 

The wife typically has no idea that her H is capable of cheating.

 

I agree in some ways with this. However, I have a few points to make:

 

Most OW (ack, generalising) are operating on this premis: that the MM is cheating on his W because he is 'stuck', I'm sorry, Married... and wishing either to stay married, or stay married longer, or whatever. In other words, that there is a reason (whether justified or not) for the cheating that's circumstantial. To find out that he's cheating on you, the OW... well, that's not circumstantial at all, that's personal.

 

Your comments about the OW giving a stamp of approval to 'cheating'... well having a relationship with someone who is cheating on someone else (for circumstantial reasons, remember) is completely different to agreeing to be cheated ON.

 

No OW 'expects' that the MM will cheat on her, for these reasons. Yes, an OW might realise that her MM is capable of cheating, but that's not to say that he WILL cheat on her, or even that he would cheat again on his W. Because basically:

 

we are all, each of us, capable of cheating (we just don't do it, for various reasons: moral, lack of opportunity, happiness, whatever). But for a W (or any other person) to believe, as you put here that her H is 'incapable of cheating' is a foolish belief. And it's not only foolish, but probably somewhat arrogant. If you think your partner is 'incapable of cheating' on you you probably have your head in the sand and might be very surprised one day.

[frannie]

Even the workplace, where both she and my exH worked was let in on what was going on under their noses, she was let go, and he got a very stern lecture from the owner of the company.

 

Oh yes... she got 'let go' and he got a 'stern lecture'...

 

I wonder how it would have felt if it had been the other way round..?

 

(sorry, not meaning to be personal but this kind of thing bugs me, and most naive OW don't know how it will be if the chit hits the fan in the workplace)

[luvmy2ns]

I agree in some ways with this. However, I have a few points to make:

 

Most OW (ack, generalising) are operating on this premis: that the MM is cheating on his W because he is 'stuck', I'm sorry, Married... and wishing either to stay married, or stay married longer, or whatever. In other words, that there is a reason (whether justified or not) for the cheating that's circumstantial. To find out that he's cheating on you, the OW... well, that's not circumstantial at all, that's personal.

 

Your comments about the OW giving a stamp of approval to 'cheating'... well having a relationship with someone who is cheating on someone else (for circumstantial reasons, remember) is completely different to agreeing to be cheated ON.

 

No OW 'expects' that the MM will cheat on her, for these reasons. Yes, an OW might realise that her MM is capable of cheating, but that's not to say that he WILL cheat on her, or even that he would cheat again on his W. Because basically:

 

we are all, each of us, capable of cheating (we just don't do it, for various reasons: moral, lack of opportunity, happiness, whatever). But for a W (or any other person) to believe, as you put here that her H is 'incapable of cheating' is a foolish belief. And it's not only foolish, but probably somewhat arrogant. If you think your partner is 'incapable of cheating' on you you probably have your head in the sand and might be very surprised one day.

 

You may be surprised to realize that some people have integrity that they are unwilling to compromise. That's not to say that they would never divorce, but that they would divorce their wife or husband for whatever reasons they have rather than stay in the marriage and sneak around.

[justice]

Oh yes... she got 'let go' and he got a 'stern lecture'...

 

I wonder how it would have felt if it had been the other way round..?

 

(sorry, not meaning to be personal but this kind of thing bugs me, and most naive OW don't know how it will be if the chit hits the fan in the workplace)[/quote

 

I couldn't agree with you more. Seems like treatment of both is unequal. That's one of the things I noticed when the workplace got told.

Thats what happens when you engage in an affair though, nothing is fair to any of the parties involved.