Is this flirting/a red flag?

[QWERTY]

Okay, I'll start by saying that I admit I'm insecure/jealous, but this is something that is really bothering me and so I'm looking for some objective opinions on it.

 

My long-term girlfriend, when she wants to be, can be very friendly, smiling and outgoing, and laughs a lot (even when what's said isn't that funny). She isn't really this way with me (she says she's "herself" with me), but is with other people. She's pretty attractive (I think she's beautiful, but I'm trying to be objective), and she has an attractive personality.

 

Men are sometimes seem very drawn to her and go out of their way to be friendly/helpful/nice to her. I realize that's the price you pay for being with an attractive person, but I just want to know if maybe she's being too friendly or if she's sending off "I'm available" signals to these men.

 

The first thing I've questioned was when she moved into her new apartment, met her new neighbour, asked him what his apartment looked like (he lives on the top floor, and we had talked before about how small it must be), and he ended up inviting her up to his place and giving her a tour. She doesn't really talk to him now, but that just struck me as odd -- someone you just met inviting you to see their place.

 

The second time was when she went to see a lawyer. She got a certificate to go for free advice, but the guy seemed extra helpful and friendly (she told me "he really seemed to like me", but didn't imply that he seemed attracted to her), and he told her to call him any time if she needed any more (free) help.

 

And yesterday, an electrician came to check on her outlets, and ended up giving her a tour of the basement (she asked him to show her the apartment's electricity meter, because she felt her landlord was doing something shady with the electricity). She also complained to him that she was cold in the winters, and he said "well, you'll need to find yourself a man to keep you warm this winter." To which she replied, "I don't need a man -- I need a landlord who is responsible."

 

And another (related?) incident was when I met her landlord after she moved in, who asked her if I was her brother. When she said that I was her boyfriend, he seemed surprised.

 

I know she often refers to herself as a "single mom", and I know "single" can have two meanings -- not married... or not in a relationship. And I should note that none of these things have happened when I'm with her... I just hear about them after. I've asked her why she acts differently with other people than with me, but she just said it's because she can be herself with me.

 

And again I admit I'm insecure/jealous, so I'm trying to get a rationale opinion on these things. I admit that a big reason for my questioning of this comes from the fact that the women I've known who have been like this (attractive, friendly, and that men seem drawn to) all had cheated on their significant others. Knowing that is making me paranoid, so I need to know if any of the above are a warning sign.

 

And note that women who she works with are drawn to her too -- I think she's friendly with women too, although I don't know if it's exactly the same way (no women seem to go out of their way to help her). I honestly think her intentions are good -- I think she may just be oblivious to the signals she's sending out (she's not very self-aware at all, which is something she's working on), and that she doesn't realize that (some) men may interpret her friendly, outgoing ways incorrectly -- especially if she's sending signals that she's also available.

 

So I want to know what some non-paranoid people think... is her friendly, smiling, laughing behaviour (even with strangers), and her referring to herself as a single mom (and not mentioning that she is in a relationship when the electrician commented on it) causing men to get the wrong idea about her -- that she's not in a relationship and/or that she is interested in them? And if you think that's the case... what (if anything) should I do about it?

 

Any advice is appreciated.

[a4a]

You need to stop being paranoid.

 

You are lucky to have an out going, fun, and positive gf.

 

She could be stomping and have perm. pms........ would that be better?

[FrequentFlyer]

Hmmm. Probably is paranoia. Relax. From what you've written, she seems to be a very outgoing person, and that's a great quality to own.

 

But -- you mentioned you're her long-term thing. Are you her long-term "plan B" and there just happens to be no "plan A" currently?

 

Just feeding your fire. Sorry.

[melodymatters]

I don't see a problem either. I tend to be the charming, liked by all type, But have never cheated on a BF and always been very into the guy I was with despite all the meaningless flirtations wafted my way.

 

The ONLY thing that caught my eye was the single mother/ long term relationship thing.

 

I used to define myself as that in a relationship when my partner was unwilling to marry/move in/co-join lives. In restrospect it WAS sort of a dig to the man in my life.

 

is THAT the case here ?????

[norajane]

Your examples don't seem like red flags to me.

 

It's a fact of life that attractive, charming people tend to get all kinds of 'extras' from people who like them, ranging from tours of the basement to legal services to apartment tours. People do go out of their way for someone if they like them.

 

I think your gf is probably very used to this, and knows how to walk the line between being outgoing and friendly, and being suggestive and opening the door to cheating. It doesn't sound like she's crossing the line (even if the people interacting with her might want her to.

 

As for the single mother designation, I think that reflects her status as an unmarried woman with children, rather than being any reflection on her relationship status with you. When a single parent says they are a single mother, the emphasis is on the parent part - meaning the father is not her husband and she's raising the kids on her own or has primary responsibility.

[Trialbyfire]

My long-term girlfriend, when she wants to be,

The rest of what you posted appears to originate from this point. Are you two in a committed relationship or not? If one party wants more and the other party isn't willing to give more, it's an unbalanced relationship which will erode on itself. Resolve these issues and hopefully, the rest of your insecurities will go away.

 

Btw, people are drawn to happy, friendly and attractive people.

[QWERTY]

Thanks everyone for your helpful (and gentle) advice. My insecurity/paranoia is a real problem for me, and I'm trying very hard to not make it her problem.

 

First, a clarification. When I said "My long-term g/f, when she wants to be"... I didn't mean that she sometimes doesn't want to be my g/f. She seems very committed to me, we're moving in together this weekend, and she isn't divorced yet so I can't marry her (plus she doesn't want to get married again). So I think we're about as committed as we can be.

 

Next, a few quick words of explanation -- my g/f's marriage ended because she had an affair, and when we were first dating she lied to me about both that and the fact that she was still seeing the guy she cheated with. She ended up leaving the guy for me after a few dates, but then lied for a couple of months after about it until I figured it out. She was very unhappy in her marriage (it was abusive), she's gotten counselling and her self-esteem has improved a lot since when I first met her, she's apologized to me for lying and she's promised she'll be faithful to me. So I'm trying to forgive, forget and move on. But I've been cheated on before and it really hurt me, and I guess I've never really healed from that. So hence the paranoia.

 

One other thing... I tend to act like she’s acting (friendly, outgoing, etc.) when I’m not in a relationship… I’m not flirty at all (unless I’m interested in the person), but I just act friendly and outgoing and funny... charming, I guess.

 

But I don’t do that when I’m in a relationship, because I know that when I act that way, women (often attractive women) become attracted to me. So I felt like continuing to act like that knowing it would make women attracted to me would be disrespectful to the person I'm with. So now when I'm talking to a woman, I take it down a few notches, and they don't seem to get interested.

 

I think that's a big part of what's bothering me -- I changed my behaviour so she wouldn't be uncomfortable, and I guess I just expected her to do the same for me. But I guess that wasn't a fair expectation.

 

So would it be wrong if I started acting friendly and outgoing and funny with women now, knowing that some of them will become attracted to me?

 

I'm not talking about flirting – it's just that I'm a relatively good-looking guy, so if I act the way she's acting, sooner or later someone's going to have a crush on me.

 

So would that be wrong for me to do?

[norajane]

You should be yourself. You don't need to dial down the charm unless you want to. Nor should you expect her to change who she is. However, if her charm is crossing the line into flirtation and outright suggestion, then you have a problem.

 

But dude....! You talk about all this outgoing/friendly stuff and give a few lame examples, and you completely leave this out:

 

Next, a few quick words of explanation -- my g/f's marriage ended because she had an affair, and when we were first dating she lied to me about both that and the fact that she was still seeing the guy she cheated with. She ended up leaving the guy for me after a few dates, but then lied for a couple of months after about it until I figured it out. She was very unhappy in her marriage (it was abusive), she's gotten counselling and her self-esteem has improved a lot since when I first met her, she's apologized to me for lying and she's promised she'll be faithful to me.

 

These are the biggest red flags ever seen! She's a liar and a cheater - repeatedly! She's lied to you about her cheating repeatedly!

 

She hasn't been without a guy for even one minute - no time to get over one relationship before moving on to another. And now she's moving you in to take over for the other guys...

 

You need to be watchful, and I do not recommend moving in with her and entwining your life with hers. She's still not divorced, she's not done with her ex, who knows if she's done with the guys she cheated with...

 

I'm sorry, but I do predict she is going to cheat on you.

[QWERTY]

Although she definitely made some bad mistakes in her marriage and when I first started dating her, she really does seem like a different person now.

 

When I met her she was angry, anxious and really insecure. Her marriage was abusive (I've been witness to some of her ex's controlling and abusive behaviour), and she was a very unhappy, unhealthy person in her marriage.

 

And yes she lied about cheating, but she was (and still is) ashamed that it happened. She has issues with being alone, and she stayed with the guy she cheated with (who was a real loser -- an alcoholic, a stalker, etc.) because her self-esteem was destroyed and she couldn't find anyone else.

 

Once I came along, and she knew I was a good guy, she ended it with him.

 

And she seems like a much happier, calmer person now. She doesn't get as mad as she used to, she spends time alone and enjoys it, she's more assertive, etc. She's different with everyone in her life now, and several people have commented on how much more confident and happy she seems.

 

Yes, I know that there's a chance she'll cheat again, which is why I'm paranoid about things. But I believe she has changed, that she is committed to our relationship (I treat her very well), and that she's not actively looking to cheat.

 

Still, because of what happened before and my fear of being cheated on, I watch her very closely (too closely) and look for even the smallest signs that she might cheat again. Like the examples I listed above, which I was convinced was a sign that she was being "too friendly" with men. I guess that would be the paranoia talking.

 

I don't want to live that way, but I do want to be with her and believe that she's committed to me. So I'm trying to work through my paranoia, and prove to myself that she really won't cheat on me.

[Reckless]

If you've started a relationship with someone that has cheated you had better get your insecurities under control because doubt will always be a factor for you; it will only be a destructive factor if you let it.

 

There is no guarentee with someone capable of lying and cheating and personally i think under crisis everyone tends to resort to type and reveal our the worst not the best of ourselves, but still, you can poison your relationship with this kind of speculation, you should deal with what your girl is now and leave the rest in the hands of the gods.

 

Your girlfriend is pretty and outgoing - men will always, ALWAYS be more helpful to her; she's onto that and sure, she does use it, but from the examples you gave I see no red flags.

 

Its the way of the world and she, like many of us, is just using what the Lord has given (playing it close to the edge in the case of going to her neighbour apartment but still playing within 'the rules'). Unless she was born yesterday she knows there is no such thing as a free lunch; she knows that going for an extra free consultation for example, would be agreeing to 'pay' in another way if you get my drift.

 

 

There is a difference between taking an offer of help offered because a guy hopes maybe you'll let him look down your blouse and OFFERING to let someone look down your blouse in return for helping you. My plummer always "flirts" with me, telling me my pipes need doing, I pretend I don't get the double entendre and smile and ask him to let me know when he's done. I do not kick him out and I certainly didn't refuse when he put on higher quality fixtures without me asking. I did not offer him my number coz my taps are shiner.

 

So basically men are nicer to girls if they are pretty. PEOPLE are nicer to girls (and boys) if they are attractive. You can take the moral high ground and be mean in return or you can go with the flow. Whether your girl will humiliate and betray you is not dependent on the OPPORTUNITIES (which are numerous) but on her moral fiber; you know her better than we do but from the examples you have given so far it sounds like she is just dealing the hand she's been given.

[QWERTY]

Thanks again everyone for your advice. I think Reckless has hit the nail on the head...

 

Yes, she is capable of cheating. Yes, she will get more attention because she's pretty and outgoing.

 

But... it all comes down to the choices she makes. And I believe in my heart that she's committed to our relationship, that she loves me, and that she doesn't want to hurt me.

 

What this doesn't protect from me from is her lack of self-awareness and denial (it's very possible she could have feelings for a guy and not be aware of it/honest with herself about it... until it becomes a problem). But that's something she's working on in counselling, and I believe that she will be able to get past.

 

But in the meantime I'll enjoy the relationship, work on getting my own issues under control, and stop looking so hard for signs that I can't trust her. As long as she's honest with me (and herself), and I can get past my insecurities, I think we'll have a wonderful relationship together.

 

Thanks again.

[JamesM]

Let's see..

 

She is outgoing and attracts people to her.

 

She is currently married, but she will be getting a divorce because she cheated.

 

When you first dated her, she was still married AND still cheating on her husband.

 

She lied about the fact that she was married and cheating.

 

She has a pattern of lying and cheating.

 

Question....

 

Do you think she is telling the truth about her "outgoing personality?" Could it be that "free" legal advice and electrical help is not really free? Could it be that the landlord was surprised that you were the BF because he thought she was single?

 

Do you think you want a relationship with her after she has a pattern of cheating and lying...which I might add includes you?

 

Could it be that you are with her and rationalizing her behavior because you feel insecure and don't think you will get someone else? Could it be that your insecurities are not just paranoia but based on things that you have heard?

 

An outgoing personality can be attractive to others. And men are attracted to a woman who is friendly and outgoing. But let's not forget she has lied to you in the past. I am not trying to make you feel more insecure, but this story contains many red flags.

 

And yes, if it were me, I think I would just enjoy every day with her, because this is not a longterm GF. Much as you like to "believe" she is committed to you, she had shown that commitment is not something she treats seriously. She may have had reasons to cheat on an "abusive" husband, but trust me...she will have reason to cheat on an "insecure" husband, too.

[nicki]

I had an abusive ex husband and I never cheated on him. There is NO excuse for cheating. An excuse for leaving, yes. An excuse for feeling neglected, yes. But NEVER cheating.

 

That said, I wonder if your girlfriend is simply a friendly woman or an "attention whore" (for lack of a better term.) Some women need attention from men and put out a "vibe" that they are available.

 

I understand what you are saying about dialing down the friendliness once you are in a relationship. I do the same thing myself. I find that if I go around smiling at men and striking up witty conversations with them, that they ask me out....and then seem surprised when I say I have a boyfriend. They invariably say "Wow, I thought you were single."

 

So, now I am still friendly, but I usually casually mention my boyfriend in conversations. I smile at guys, but break eye contact and don't look back at them. I don't flirt or touch them in any way. It may seem subtle, because it is and I don't want to put the single "vibe" out there by looking a bit too long or overly smiling at them.

 

I've had very charming boyfriends, too. And women were always thinking that they were hitting on them. Not fun.

[Cobra_X30]

Thanks again everyone for your advice. I think Reckless has hit the nail on the head...

 

Yes, she is capable of cheating. Yes, she will get more attention because she's pretty and outgoing.

 

But... it all comes down to the choices she makes. And I believe in my heart that she's committed to our relationship, that she loves me, and that she doesn't want to hurt me.

 

She is actively seeking attention from other men to build her self worth!

 

Yeah everyone says... if she is gonna cheat you cant stop her... ect.

 

Seriously she's already lied to you. Your never going to be able to rest. Your going to have to watch your back every bloody second, and if you stop providing the attention she needs to puff up her ego... well maybe she will find a guy to fill in for a bit.

 

Besides... Going up to check out some dudes apartment alone... thats bloody dangerous. Same with going into the basement with the electrician... Not smart.

[bish]

I agree with the others here. I am one of the first to say a red flag is waving when it comes to flirting...I don't have any tolerance for what I perceive to be heavy flirting.

 

But nothing you wrote indicates anything of the sort. Relax. If these are the worst of it, then you will probably be ok.

 

You probably are just being paranoid...but you know what they say about paranoia?....just because you are paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you or isn't screwing around with you.

[QWERTY]

I've done a lot of thinking about this, and made some major realizations around the underlying issue for me (and her). I think it all has to do with attachment issues.

 

Both she and I have come from neglectful/abusive homes, and have only had unhealthy relationships (including friendships). I think that has set us both up to deal with attachment in a romantic relationship in unhealthy ways.

 

For me, I put all my attachment needs into one person -- the person I'm in a relationship with. When I'm in a close relationship, I don't feel very connected to friends, family or anyone else -- I put all my eggs into that relationship basket, and I expect (unreasonably) that the other person to do the same. I've realized I also feel a little jealous of my g/f's female friends -- because I feel like I'm sharing her emotional attachment with them And the reason I've been so paranoid/insecure in this relationship is because my g/f has had unhealthy attachments to other men while with me -- in addition to the guy at the start of the relationship, she still has MAJOR anger issues with her ex-husband (which she's currently working on in therapy) and had REALLY big crushes on a couple of celebrities at the start of our relationship (which she realized was unhealthy and stopped).

 

As for her, I think she tends to get her attachment needs met by spreading them around a bit. One person can't meet all of her attachment needs, so she gets those remaining needs met in healthy and unhealthy ways. That's why I was so worried about the guys showing interest in her -- I was worried that she was behaving in an unhealthy way to get her "attention whore" (as someone above said) needs met, and I was (insecurely) worried that those men could become a threat to her attachment to me. From what I've read, this is also how an insecurely attached child acts when a potential rival to its mother's attention comes in the room... so apparently I'm just a big child. :-)

 

So I'm starting to recognize my own issues, but she's proven to me that I may not be able to meet all of her needs, which terrifies me deep down because I want to be her everything like she is with me. I think right now that I am meeting most of her needs, enough so that she won't cheat, but if our relationship runs into trouble or she doesn't feel as close to me, and someone interesting comes along... I'm not sure what will happen.

 

So... I definitely need counselling on this. At least I'm starting to really understand the problem, which is affecting me in a lot of different ways. For example I never feel the urge to smoke when I'm with her, because I feel her attachment to me, but soon as I'm away from her -- I smoke like a fiend.

 

But if I want to stay in this relationship not only do I have to resolve my own attachment issues, I've also got to get over the fear that her attachment issues may cause her to do something hurtful to me. I think the only way that will happen is if she shows some increased awareness about the reasons for her unhealthy actions in the past (e.g. cheating on her husband), and I feel more confident that her interactions with others are for healthy reasons and not neediness. I've mentioned some of this in an email to her, so we'll see what she says.

 

Regardless of how she responds, I know I won't be able to be in a healthy relationship until I resolve this issue. And I just don't want to be alone right now (I've spent many years alone), so I'm going to stick with her until I can get a more healthy perspective on things and really assess how healthy/unhealthy she is. Some of you seemed to support the idea that I have reason to be concerned (because of her cheating), but I also know how committed she is to being healthy and to having a healthy relationship so I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

Just thought I'd share this in case it's helpful to anyone else, in case anyone had insight on attachment issues, and to let you know that I got a lot out of your replies. :-)

[Cobra_X30]

Just thought I'd share this in case it's helpful to anyone else, in case anyone had insight on attachment issues, and to let you know that I got a lot out of your replies. :-)

 

I think attachement, is only part of the problem you two are experiencing.

 

You realize that she is still on the rebound right?

 

You cant fix her! She has to do that herself. So, you need to focus on you.

 

You have some problems with attachment. That will make you seem needy and smothering.... not a good thing. This may be a time to make sure you dont lose that connection with friends.

 

Usually I wouldnt recommend this, but try flirting with girls as much as you can. Strike up conversations as much as you can! Become as outgoing as you can make yourself be. Seriously, it will help build your confidence... and its not like your GF will be able to complain!

[nicki]

I've also had attachment issues, and have been able to recognize the pattern and make new, healthy patterns. It can be done!

 

Attachment and trust is an extremely important base on which we build our whole sense of safety. It's very primal. If your primary family wasn't there for you when you had needs to meet, you most likely learned to not reach out or to trust...and you can't trust yourself until you can trust someone else. It goes to the issue of feeling safe enough to continue to the next level.

 

Our unmet desire to attach and trust doesn't go away. If not satisfied or formed early, you will search for it your whole life....and probably from people who won't give it to you. It's in our human nature to seek out the same patterns as adults that we learned as children. It's what is comfortable to us because our neural pathways have been laid out to recognize that as "right."

 

Everyone has to have that first "mother." That means you have to find someone to love you unconditionally who will be there for you. This person has to be predictable in their behavior and trustworthy.

 

They also have to let you "rebel" as children do and still be there for you, all the while teaching you healthy "boundaries" of behavior to accept from others, as well as healthy boundaries around what your behavior should be.

 

It's very hard to get this need met by a lover, especially one with her own issues. It takes a lot of patience and awareness. (I kinda think only one dysfunctional partner to a couple, please. But, dysfunctional people are attracted to each other on an emotional level because we struggle to overcome the very dynamic that we are attracted to.)

 

It's said that humans need other humans in order to heal. I believe that. There's only so much you can do yourself. That's probably why you need to be with someone who is emotionally healthy and doesn't push your dysfunctional buttons.

 

That means no "attention whore" women you can't trust. Down the road, when you are healthy yourself, you won't even want a woman like that anyway. And you won't try to explain away their dysfunction by saying that they are "good" people in so many other ways. It just won't matter to you.

 

Having someone to trust and lean on and having that experience turn out good, teaches you to trust. Then you can handle it when someone untrustworthy comes along. It's not the end of the world...because you now trust yourself to do what you need to do to "detach" as well.

 

Bottom line, you can learn to trust and to attach in a healthy manner. But you do need to learn how to do that with someone. Maybe a therapist, maybe another mother of father figure or mentor. Maybe a friend, or maybe even a lover....but it has to be a lover who doesn't feed into the dyfunction by supplying the other half of a bad dynamic.

 

Maybe couples therapy? You could learn a lot from each other if you both want to heal and behave in ways that support healing....and your therapist could be that person you learn to trust and attach to. The good news is that trust is the one issue we revisit over and over again in our life. It can be built and rebuilt.

 

Good luck! I would also recommend yoga classes. Having a teacher adjust you and take care of you feels very motherly. It helped me in so many ways.

[QWERTY]

Thank you nicki for your thoughtful, supportive and encouraging reply... your words were very helpful to me.

 

I should clarify that the "attention whore" comment was from someone else which I just chose to repeat. I do question her motivation for being overly friendly (especially since she only seems to do it when I'm not around), but I now think (because of the suggestions made by others here) that her behaviour isn't crossing a line.

 

However, the cheating and lying of her past are definitely pushing my buttons. I remember I said to her once that she was what I needed -- someone who would make me face my fears and mistrust so that I'd have to deal with them instead of just having them looming in the background. But I later realized, as you also stated, that what I need is someone I can trust, which will allow me to heal.

 

I'm not ready to give up on her yet. She really has worked hard on changing and healing, and unless something definite happens that shows I still can't trust her, I think I'm going to stay until I can get some counselling and decide what I want with a clear mind.

 

Thanks again nicki (and everyone else who replied)...