I've made my decision-- needed!

[Zapbasket]

It's not a red flag to learn someone is marriage-minded early on. It is a red flag if they are talking about marrying YOU early on. How can he possibly know that so soon when you have spent, what, one weekend together in Colorado, and how much time together in New York? That kind of commitment talk so early would make me run the other way because it's based on a hormonal, honeymoon-stage, fantasy-based evaluation. I don't mean that in a judgmental way, but the "love goggles" thing is starting to be documented scientifically. People are literally "high" during the early stages of relationships - lust, infatuation, whatever you want to call it, isn't deep love based on an objective evaluation of the other person.

 

I would also run from a guy talking marriage this early because I had that very experience with the ex that brought me to this board. We were talking long-term commitment three months into the relationship, and in retrospect that was a big mistake. We were totally putting the cart before the horse, and it seems that the same thing may be happening in your situation. (IMO, it's still a red flag if you solicited the comment...others may disagree.)

 

Now, that being said, a close friend of mine met someone in Feb '06 and a month or so later, they were already talking about marriage. I was wildly skeptical at the time, but a year after they met, they were engaged. Married in November, they are now expecting their first baby. So they seem to be an exception. HOWEVER, in my friend's case there was never an ounce of doubt in her mind about him, or their pace, or anything. They knew what they wanted, they saw it in each other, and boom. So, perhaps they are the exception that proves the rule?

 

I don't know. I'm not seeing the same level of certainty in your posts, which just says to me that slowing this thing down so you can think clearly about it all would probably be a good thing.

 

Thanks, Sunshinegirl. I remember about you and your ex--in your earliest posts, that was one of the reasons you were so shocked about the break-up.

 

So let me ask a little more specific question of you: what KIND of red flag might it raise when someone talks marriage early on in dating you? The thing with this guy is that in every way he seems completely grounded, decent, warm, capable of having close, longstanding friendships (though I haven't yet seen him interact with friends but I'll be meeting one of his friends when he comes to visit me), and so his marriage talk doesn't creep me out. Especially when in a way our situation calls for a clarification of how serious he and I both are...I mean, I initially went out there thinking this was just going to be a fling, and HE acknowledged that it felt like more. Then as we both got more specific, the marriage thing came up. It's not like he was talking "I want to marry you in 6 months" or anything specific...just that he sees real long-term potential in our liaison, and of the marriage category. So I don't get a vibe that he's somehow...unbalanced, or unrealistic...and yet...well...I don't know what to think. What do you think this all might say about HIM that maybe ought to concern me?

[sunshinegirl]

So let me ask a little more specific question of you: what KIND of red flag might it raise when someone talks marriage early on in dating you?

 

It might suggest one of two flags to me:

 

(1) the person might just like the idea of marriage, the idea of commitment. Would I just be filling some kind of role, and that really, any warm body could do it?

 

(2) the person might be a commitment phobe or otherwise the type that comes on strong at first, only to cool off later. No thanks, I don't need that kind of roller coaster.

 

You do need to take it all within the context of the relationship, of course. And generally the big "must run now" reaction would come primarily if I weren't on the same page with the guy. In other words, I didn't freak out with the ex when we started talking commitment early because I was really into him. But any guy who is already four steps ahead of me in the dating process is going to get a big "whoa there, slow down!" reaction from me. And in an extreme case, it might turn me off altogether. I like people who are realistic and whose heads aren't in the clouds. If I get the sense that the guy is fantasizing, with no grounding in who I am or who we are as a couple, I get real turned off real fast.

 

In your case, given that you would run straight back to your ex if he showed up on your doorstep, you are not in a good place to be evaluating a possible move to Colorado to be with a new guy, no matter how grounded, realistic, or otherwise "okay" his talk of marriage might sound to you. Sure, keep dating the new guy and get to know him better... and then, some time down the road, if your ex is more definitely behind you, you can think about a relocation.

 

I just don't think the solution to not wanting a long-distance relationship is to move to be closer to the new interest.

[Zapbasket]

It might suggest one of two flags to me:

 

(1) the person might just like the idea of marriage, the idea of commitment. Would I just be filling some kind of role, and that really, any warm body could do it?

 

(2) the person might be a commitment phobe or otherwise the type that comes on strong at first, only to cool off later. No thanks, I don't need that kind of roller coaster.

 

You do need to take it all within the context of the relationship, of course. And generally the big "must run now" reaction would come primarily if I weren't on the same page with the guy. In other words, I didn't freak out with the ex when we started talking commitment early because I was really into him. But any guy who is already four steps ahead of me in the dating process is going to get a big "whoa there, slow down!" reaction from me. And in an extreme case, it might turn me off altogether. I like people who are realistic and whose heads aren't in the clouds. If I get the sense that the guy is fantasizing, with no grounding in who I am or who we are as a couple, I get real turned off real fast.

 

In your case, given that you would run straight back to your ex if he showed up on your doorstep, you are not in a good place to be evaluating a possible move to Colorado to be with a new guy, no matter how grounded, realistic, or otherwise "okay" his talk of marriage might sound to you. Sure, keep dating the new guy and get to know him better... and then, some time down the road, if your ex is more definitely behind you, you can think about a relocation.

 

I just don't think the solution to not wanting a long-distance relationship is to move to be closer to the new interest.

 

Thanks. I get it. I think 1) and 2) could be simultaneous, as well--someone could like the idea of commitment but then freak out when it becomes a real possibility. Actually, these are my fears exactly regarding the meaning of this man being never-married at age 49. My big doubt at this stage is that he feels I'm "it" and that being with me would not be "settling" in any way...but as my all-too-human flaws inevitably come to his attention, I'm afraid he may suddenly cool and yes, this would really suck if I'm in the thick of preparations to move there. Your advice is really helpful in regards to keeping my feet on the ground. Perhaps one way I can avoid this happening, if I remain bent on relocating, is to keep researching jobs in OTHER cities, not just his city and NYC. Already his city fills a lot of my lifestyle criteria, and so there are solid, non-new-guy-related reasons for looking into moving there. You and OpenBook both are reminding me to put MY concerns front and center, and not to be swayed disproportionately by the possibilities with this guy.

 

I'm with you on liking people to be realistic about the time it takes to develop lasting feelings for someone. In this guy's TALK, he's practically already married us. But his actions show much more nuance and caution. I mean, he's coming out to visit me and I see that as him really taking an opportunity to evaluate whether I'm truly worth pursuing. In our conversations, I feel him taking in everything I say and really evaluating, in the privacy of his mind, my character, my mind and values. Also, my laptop died and he refurbished and gave me a laptop that he'd received as part of a big research grant, and I accepted it and have let him know repeatedly how much I appreciate it. I felt it made him feel really good to know that he could help me out and I appreciated it, and so I felt okay accepting the gift.

 

This guy is very smart and it's hard because when you encounter strong intellect you're prone to expect the person to be high-functioning in ALL aspects. I'm aware that he could be terrific overall, but have real intimacy issues--I mean, he showed me 15 years worth of photo albums and all his previous partners are these beautiful, accomplished, classy-seeming women. I'm curious what story they would tell about him.

 

I just DON'T KNOW and it's so frustrating! I feel like this whole thread could be entitled, "GreenCove's Lesson in Decision-Making Amidst Life's Unknowns and the Unpredictibility of People's Characters."

 

I just don't think the solution to not wanting a long-distance relationship is to move to be closer to the new interest.

 

Sorry...can you please clarify your thinking here? Why wouldn't this be a solution? I met someone I'm really interested in, I want to leave this city unless I find a spectacular job here, and I Ihave learned very painfully that long distance can cripple a relationship...and a relationship forged through long distance allows for a lot of fantasy that just may not pan out when you're together. I feel like I either need to end it now, or be willing to take a lot of risks to find out with concrete certainty that it WILL NOT WORK (one of the things that still tortures me about my ex is that I feel like after all that time we never really got to find out whether we could have worked together in the same city. I never want to have that again). After all, at this stage in my life, what do I have to lose? Or such is my thinking.... What are you thinking?

 

Thanks. It really helps to get such solid perspective from other minds.

[sunshinegirl]

Sorry...can you please clarify your thinking here? Why wouldn't this be a solution? I met someone I'm really interested in, I want to leave this city unless I find a spectacular job here, and I Ihave learned very painfully that long distance can cripple a relationship...and a relationship forged through long distance allows for a lot of fantasy that just may not pan out when you're together. I feel like I either need to end it now, or be willing to take a lot of risks to find out with concrete certainty that it WILL NOT WORK (one of the things that still tortures me about my ex is that I feel like after all that time we never really got to find out whether we could have worked together in the same city. I never want to have that again). After all, at this stage in my life, what do I have to lose? Or such is my thinking.... What are you thinking?

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I think it's a bad idea to meet someone promising and decide to move to be near them right away because you don't want to deal with an LDR. Eliminating the "LD" from your R is something that I think should be done only after you have known each other for quite some time and after you have built a solid foundation to be reasonably confident that your relationship will work out.

 

Your situation might be slightly different because you seem bent on leaving NYC, and therefore you're looking to move somewhere new anyway. In that case, sure, add Denver to the job-hunting mix. But man, I would be darn sure that you can be happy in Denver without him.

 

But again, in the broader scheme of things you are right to re-prioritize your own wishes and desires. As I think I've said before, don't let New Guy's enthusiasm dictate your pace. From what you've said, I think you should really slow things down.

[sb129]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I think it's a bad idea to meet someone promising and decide to move to be near them right away because you don't want to deal with an LDR. Eliminating the "LD" from your R is something that I think should be done only after you have known each other for quite some time and after you have built a solid foundation to be reasonably confident that your relationship will work out.

 

Your situation might be slightly different because you seem bent on leaving NYC, and therefore you're looking to move somewhere new anyway. In that case, sure, add Denver to the job-hunting mix. But man, I would be darn sure that you can be happy in Denver without him.

 

But again, in the broader scheme of things you are right to re-prioritize your own wishes and desires. As I think I've said before, don't let New Guy's enthusiasm dictate your pace. From what you've said, I think you should really slow things down.

 

I agree with this, esp the parts in bold..

Greencove, the mental picture I have of you is of a classy, accomplished woman, why are you putting yourself down this way?

 

Whenever we start a new relationship we generally worry that the new person may see our flaws the same way our ex did, or the way we do (ie in a negative light).

This isn't always the case, so don't be afraid to show them.

I think my problem was when I moved to be with my ex after a LDR, I worked so hard at NOT showing any of my flaws (I was determined to be the perfect GF) that when they finally showed after we moved in together it was catastrophic.

 

This time around, Wonderboy knew about my flaws pretty early on. We moved in together after about 8months of LDR, and its been pretty smooth sailing in comparison to the last time- however, I had been planning to move to his city before we even met.

 

I am sure you will make the right decision in the end GC.

[Zapbasket]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I think it's a bad idea to meet someone promising and decide to move to be near them right away because you don't want to deal with an LDR. Eliminating the "LD" from your R is something that I think should be done only after you have known each other for quite some time and after you have built a solid foundation to be reasonably confident that your relationship will work out.

 

A few years ago I would have agreed with you 100%. It's just...that's what I did in my relationship with my ex. I felt that it was important we have that solid foundation, and in my view part of that foundation was ensuring we both received the best educations we could. I thought about it so hard...and looking back while I don't regret the hard focus I gave to my degree program, I regret that I didn't just take a leap. His city was spectacular; if we haadn't worked out I'm sure I'd have found my way just fine. I don't want that regret again; it is so painful to have always to wonder "What If?" With this guy, it's hard to build a foundation from hundreds of miles away. even now, I feel like I'd know so much more about him and whether we'd work together if we were in the same city. Already distance is depriving this liaison, just as the distance ate away at my relationship with my ex like termites under the floorboards. I just can't bear the same situation again.

 

Your situation might be slightly different because you seem bent on leaving NYC, and therefore you're looking to move somewhere new anyway. In that case, sure, add Denver to the job-hunting mix. But man, I would be darn sure that you can be happy in Denver without him.

 

A two-hour drive to Vail? Access to literally DOZENS of 14,000-foot mountains to hike? I think I'd manage! I can't help feeling this: I've already lost what mattered most to me. What do I have to lose? What can I possibly LOSE at this point? As long as friends will come visit me, and my mom, and I can visit them, I think I'll manage. I lost last time because I was too cautious. Since that failed, why not try the opposite tack? I know, I know...I'm probably not thinking straight...

 

But again, in the broader scheme of things you are right to re-prioritize your own wishes and desires. As I think I've said before, don't let New Guy's enthusiasm dictate your pace. From what you've said, I think you should really slow things down.

 

Tonight on the phone New Guy told me about friends of his who knew each other for 3 months and then moved in together and have been together now several years. What if I just go for it? What do I have to lose? I'm really asking. I feel braced to make a big leap.

[Zapbasket]

I agree with this, esp the parts in bold..

Greencove, the mental picture I have of you is of a classy, accomplished woman, why are you putting yourself down this way?

 

Whenever we start a new relationship we generally worry that the new person may see our flaws the same way our ex did, or the way we do (ie in a negative light).

This isn't always the case, so don't be afraid to show them.

I think my problem was when I moved to be with my ex after a LDR, I worked so hard at NOT showing any of my flaws (I was determined to be the perfect GF) that when they finally showed after we moved in together it was catastrophic.

 

This time around, Wonderboy knew about my flaws pretty early on. We moved in together after about 8months of LDR, and its been pretty smooth sailing in comparison to the last time- however, I had been planning to move to his city before we even met.

 

I am sure you will make the right decision in the end GC.

 

Thanks, SB. I wasn't putting myself down--I meant that I was looking through his albums, and they were full of pictures of lovely-looking women, and the women he told me about all sounded very classy and accomplished. Then he tells me that of all of these woman, NONE made him feel like he wouldn't be settling. He tells me that I, on the other hand, DO make him feel that way. Now, as flattering as that may be, and as much as a catch as I think I am overall (I do think I'm a pretty dang good catch ), I'm not so narcissistic as to believe that indeed I am infinitely superior to all these women. Maybe there's a pattern in him, I fear, where he gets all excited about someone at the beginning, and then runs when inevitable flaws and relationship glitches arise, saying that to put up with those flaws and glitches would be "settling." Maybe he can only be with Perfect, and since that doesn't exist, that's why none of his relationships have worked for the long haul.

 

Now, I could be wrong, and it could be that indeed he feels like I'm It. If so, that is incredibly lovely. And...I do feel like we have a kindredness, both being only children, the way we think, our joie de vivre, independent-spiritedness, athletic interests, intellectual interests.... I feel very comfortable around him. Maybe we are It for each other. If we are, would I necessarily "know" that right away, on every level?

 

Thanks for your faith that I'll make a good decision. I feel this huge surge of energy steering me to take a big leap; this surge is the accumulation of having sorted through so, so, so much pain; it's like millions in a bank account of possibilities and I want to spend it as wisely as I can. I'm scared as all hell!