What's wrong with me?

[magritte]

Greetings,

 

I am a 23 year old man who has decided he does not want to live alone anymore. I have never been on a date, kissed a girl or had sex. I feel very bad about this (because at the very least these things are life expereinces that everyone else gets to have) and am also extremely lonely, but these are not the points of this posting.

 

I think the problem is that I have never received any kind of attention whatsoever from a girl anywhere near my age. I admit I have only approached girls a handful of times (probably 4-6, all in my college years), but they were never interested, though sometimes extremely cruel. All of these approaches were 'cold'. By that I mean I did not get any positive signals from them before I went up and started talking to them. I notice that when I go out with my friends, girls smile at them, flirt with them or just look at them from across the room. I have never noticed a girl giving attention to me, and I am always looking for it. Even worse, I notice that women will look away from me when I try to make eye contact with them as I walk past them.

 

I guess ideally I would go up and talk to so many women that I would find one that would want to talk to me; but I guess I am too shy for that. I don't know anyone that goes up to every stranger they see and talk to them though -- basically I do not think shyness is the problem; I know guys who are more shy then me and have luck with women. I am most certainly not a social retard, I have no problems initiating or maintaining a conversation. I would even go as far as to label myself a fine conversationalist -- I'm very well read and have multiple degrees.

 

I hope the problem is not my appearance either, but it is possible. Even though I am only two years out of college I would consider myself fairly wealthy making around 50k a year. I always wear the most expensive clothes and have excellent hygiene. My negatives, appearance-wise, would be the fact that I have permanent acne-scarring and bad teeth in addition to the fact that very few people would consider my face aesthetically pleasing to begin with (it is noticeably asymmetrical).

 

I know people *say* that looks don't matter; but every piece of evidence that I have witnessed suggests that looks play a very important role, even if they are not the end-all for attraction. Almost all couples I have seen look like they come from the same family (all jokes about incest aside), fat people with fat/ugly people, good looking people (especially young people) always end up with other good looking people. Try walking around a crowded city and observing this on your own, I swear that almost all couples I see could pull of being siblings! I have always kept an eye out for ugly guys that end up with average or good looking women; this never happens unless the guy is ridiculously wealthy. Whenever you hear someone say, 'but my significant other isn't that good looking' you can be sure that this is a lie, or that the person making the quote is also not very good looking (people often do poor jobs assessing their own looks, which is a large part of my problem).

 

If it sounds like I am considering looks to be worth more than they are, I suggest you read a biology and/or psychology textbook. I don't want to get into an argument though, what I want to know if there are any special rules unattractive men are supposed to follow with the opposite sex. Good looking people, for instance, can pull off the crude and crass demeanor and still get the girl -- does that mean less attractive people should play the 'coy' and 'shy' cards?

 

If you read this, and are planning on replying, let me say, 'thank you', but please consider ...

 

That my problem may not be lack of confidence. I have a very good job, am a pretty good artist and musician, and have a number of friends. Do you want me to pull more confidence out of thin air? I can honestly say that I am satisfied with every aspect of my life so far except for the fact that women are not attracted to me. Besides, all confidence will do is get me to approach more women; if they are completely ignoring me to the point of rudeness already then there is a more pressing issue at hand.

 

Desperation. After re-reading what I have written, the 'and I am always looking for attention from girls' did indeed sound desperate. You should know that a lifetime of seeing everyone else born into someone else's hand can make you feel 'bad', even if you have never experienced what I have. I make every effort not to come off as desperate (I'm always assertive and never supplicate), but fear it may still shine through a bit. I think this leads to the same paradox as 'get confident stupid'. I can't pull 'hapiness of being alone' out of thin air; I can only live my life as best I can, which does not necessarily result in a relationship, I've been trying that my entire life.

[moimeme]

Greetings, artiste!

 

First of all, banish the thought that 'everybody' has somebody. The stats say there are huge numbers of singles in the world and certainly the singles websites and ads attest to that. It's just that when we want something we don't have, our attention is drawn to the 'proof' that we are deprived.

 

Now, about appearance. It doesn't have to matter. Did you happen to watch 'Bachelorette'? The lad they called 'Fat Bob' (not that he was fat at all) gained a huge following because he has such a delightful personality. Charm and cheer will take you very far even if you're not Mr. Gorgeous.

 

Having said that, you will have to pay attention to whatever is wrong with your teeth. Good teeth are a 'must'; if you are making that much money, there is no excuse for you to have bad teeth and that isn't a matter of appearance, it's a matter of hygiene. If your teeth look uncared-for, people will think you are not careful about the rest of your hygiene, no matter how nice your clothes are. It's one thing to have a less-than-beautiful face and that can't be fixed easily but there is no dental problem that can't be righted so you absolutely must attend to your teeth.

 

Then, when you have a nice smile, flash it whenever you can. I am not a gal they'd be calling for the modelling jobs but I've lost count of the compliments I get on my smile - but it took three years in braces and a good bleach job to earn them. If it'll make you feel better, Tom Cruise was wearing braces just last year so it is never too late to get the choppers tidied up.

 

You could also go for a consult to see about the acne scarring, if you think it's very bad. That, too, can be repaired fairly easily.

So go spend some of that cash on you and then go win yourself some ladies.

[magritte]

Thanks for the reply. I think I needed to hear these things; I probably bought too much into the 'looks don't matter' BS in the past and put these things off. I am currently looking at orthadontists for fixing my teeth. I had already talked to my demataligist about permanant acne scarring but she said that I should not expect my skin to look like I did before I had acne, but I am hoping for the best.

 

I'd like to honestly ask one more question that I feel is on-topic for this forum:

 

Is it normal for women not to ever approach a guy? Is it unheard of for a guy to be 23 years old and never been flirted with? I know it is usually the guy who approaches the girl and initiates the conversation; but like I said before I am most worried by the fact that I have never recieved any positive attention at all from the opposite sex. Can a guy that never recieves attention from the opposite sex just go out and 'create' it? Can you go from 'ice cold' to 'warmed up to you', or does there have to be some initial attraction from the girl at work? I guess this is where my worries about my appearance came from since I act normal in public, have friends and am confident in who I am.

 

Sorry if these questions are totally obvious to everyone else in the world, I really don't know and would feel too ackward asking anyone I know in real life. Any replies are greatly appreciated.

[HokeyReligions]

Somewhere on this board is a post about bad kissing and some comments were made about bad teeth. If you can get your teeth fixed - do. Some women will look at your lips and mouth and if you have bad teeth - no matter what about you is great - some women will think "I don't want to kiss that" -- the same as men will when looking at a woman's smile (or lack of one).

 

A little clue for you. For many women, men become more attractive and sexy to them AFTER they get to know them and find their personalities click. Sometimes we just seem to open our eyes one day and see someone who we never thought sexy before, was just about irristable. Now, thats not true for all women, but for many of the women I've talked to.

 

Use your conversation skills to ask about the women and find one with similar interests to you. Keep talking to them and then just bite the bullet and ask some out. It can be dinner, movie, lunch, cup-o-coffee, trip to the zoo, museum, whatever your interests. Don't be afraid of singles-groups at churches or clubs.

 

Also, expensive clothes, car, etc. can send the wrong message. It can say "I lack self-confidence, but look what I got" and that is often a big turn-off.

 

Shyness & lack of self confidence are pretty close and often mistaken.

 

BTW: 23 is not too old to be starting out. I'm sure there are men, and women, much older than you with even less experience and less going for them.

 

You are right about couples looking alike. The longer a couple is together, the more alike they look.

 

But that's not always the case. Where I used to live there was a young couple - in their early 30's if I remember right. Well, she was nice looking - average I guess. He had been in a fire when he was a kid and had horrible scars all over. It was difficult to not look at his face. I talked to her in the washateria (we often did our laundry at the same time/day) and she said they had just been married a few months before.

 

I didn't want to ask about his face, but she could tell I was curious and she told me that when they first met she was so uncomfortable around him that they never spoke and she never looked at him. But they were both doing volunteer work for someone in politics. Well, they ended up being forced to work together and to talk and she said he put her mind at ease about himself and explained that he was burned when he was a teenager and that the best that could be done was to save his eyes, one ear and most of his nose and his lips. They started talking and then going to lunch together. I remember her saying she was really uncomfortable going out in public with him at first. But the more they got to know each other the more they liked each other. She said she laughed so much with him, and then felt like she could tell him anything and she said one day she looked into his eyes and saw beauty there. They continued dating and fell in love and married.

[Just A Girl2]

I definitely agree with the others, about the teeth. Glad you're going to an orthodontist, that's excellent. It's really true, bad teeth can be the first thing that someone notices about a person. For me, I could meet the most gorgeous guy, but if he, say, opens his mouth and his teeth are brown and yellow and hideous looking, I think to myself:

 

a) Hasn't this guy ever brushed his teeth? Are they all rotten? His breath must be totally funky? There's no way I'd ever want to kiss that mouth. (hey, I'm a stickler for fresh breath, and a mouthful of nasty looking discolored teeth doesn't do much to foster the belief that they have good oral hygiene)

 

Good thing you're seeing a dermatologist, too. I thought there was some type of procedure, like dermabrasion, or a chemical peel, or something similar, that they can perform on people with bad acne scars? Well, I'm sure your dermatologist knows all about these things. Also, when it comes to something so sensitive (your face!), it never hurts to seek the opinion of more than one dermatologist. Some might be "more up" on the latest techniques/procedures. Some may have more experience in dealing with people with acne scars than others. Don't ever assume that one dermatologist is as good as the next. Also, find one who has some 'before and after' pictures, of those they've treated (acne scars)......have a look at their 'work.'

 

You wrote:

 

Is it normal for women not to ever approach a guy? Is it unheard of for a guy to be 23 years old and never been flirted with?

 

Well, where is it that you go? I think the places a person goes to can make a big difference on this. Are you looking to meet women in trendy, snooty, "nothing but beautiful, pretentious people looking to meet only beautiful, pretentious people" type places? For instance, the club scene. Yuck.

 

You say you're an artist and musician......do you involve yourself in activities where other artists and musicians hang out? Good place to start meeting people are places where people who share your same interests are. Are you doing this?

 

As for you dressing very well....maybe you're dressing too well? I mean, sure, for work it's good to dress well...but how do you dress "after hours"? Maybe your fancy duds are intimidating? Maybe there are women out there who are attracted to you, but fear they're "not in your league"? I myself am much more attracted to the casual/down to earth kind of guy...cuz that's the kind of person I am (well, 'cept when I have to go somewhere special). If I were in a place and had to choose between the guy in designer duds and the guy dressed casual in nice jeans and a sporty/casual top, I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat.

 

Maybe women don't flirt with you because, unbeknownst to you, you give off some kind of air of being unapproachable? Maybe your shyness comes across as unfriendliness? I've known tons of shy people who I initially thought were just stuck-up snots...but when I got to know them, I realized that air they gave off was really more shyness and being uncomfortable.

 

Can you talk with your close friends, female friends, about how they perceive you? Sometimes asking for honest, constructive feedback from those who know you best can give you some good clues as to why you're not attracting people.

 

Also, one thing that's a huge turn-off (well, 'cept maybe to golddiggers) is men who flaunt their success....who can't have a conversation without mentioning their intelligence, their degrees, how much $ they make, their snappy car, the cost of their italian leather shoes, bla bla. Do you think you might do this?

[Pookette]

You sound like a very friendly, likeable guy to me. I empathize with you because I had the same situation. Right now I'm 22 and married, but a few years ago, I couldn't meet anyone. I'm not bad looking and I am intelligent, so why weren't guys picking that up? All the other girls I knew were constantly dating and having boyfriends, but honestly, I wasn't going to sleep with everyone so I didn't have the boyfriends.

 

So, I just figured "screw you guys" and I did whatever I wanted to. If I wanted to wear jeans that had more holes than denim and tie-dyed shirts, I did. I did what I wanted to and had fun while doing it. Basically, if you aren't looking for it, you will find it. Maybe you are trying too hard?

 

What characteristics does a woman have that makes you want to approach her? And I think more importantly, where are you trying to approach these women? It would be interesting to know your m.o.

[yes]

do you have any gal-friends? if not, a good place to start is to make some girl buddies. if you do, ask them for advice.

 

there's likely something you're doing wrong, and we can't figure it out unless we see you interact with women.

 

and btw, lots of women out there will go for a guy even if he's not "standardly" attractive. seen it happen many times, so it's definitely not your looks.

 

good luck!

-yes

[magritte]

Originally posted by Just A Girl2

I definitely agree with the others, about the teeth. Glad you're going to an orthodontist, that's excellent. It's really true, bad teeth can be the first thing that someone notices about a person. For me, I could meet the most gorgeous guy, but if he, say, opens his mouth and his teeth are brown and yellow and hideous looking, I think to myself:

 

a) Hasn't this guy ever brushed his teeth? Are they all rotten? His breath must be totally funky? There's no way I'd ever want to kiss that mouth. (hey, I'm a stickler for fresh breath, and a mouthful of nasty looking discolored teeth doesn't do much to foster the belief that they have good oral hygiene)

 

Pardon me, but when did I say I had rotten, yellow teeth and bad breath? And why would I be seeing an ORTHADONTIST about something like that?! I guess I should have explicitly said that I have crooked teeth; I brush them three times a day, floss and use mouthwash, and my teeth and gums are healthy thank you.

 

Good thing you're seeing a dermatologist, too. I thought there was some type of procedure, like dermabrasion, or a chemical peel, or something similar, that they can perform on people with bad acne scars? Well, I'm sure your dermatologist knows all about these things. Also, when it comes to something so sensitive (your face!), it never hurts to seek the opinion of more than one dermatologist. Some might be "more up" on the latest techniques/procedures. Some may have more experience in dealing with people with acne scars than others. Don't ever assume that one dermatologist is as good as the next. Also, find one who has some 'before and after' pictures, of those they've treated (acne scars)......have a look at their 'work.'

 

Yes I will most likely be seeing another dermatologist; especially considering the one I already consulted was the one that would not give me Accutane until I was 17 years old, which I am almost certain is why I have permanent scars to begin with! If I could go back in time I would have done anything humanly possible to get that stuff if I knew how severe the after-affects of acne were.

 

As for you dressing very well....maybe you're dressing too well? I mean, sure, for work it's good to dress well...but how do you dress "after hours"? Maybe your fancy duds are intimidating? Maybe there are women out there who are attracted to you, but fear they're "not in your league"? I myself am much more attracted to the casual/down to earth kind of guy...cuz that's the kind of person I am (well, 'cept when I have to go somewhere special). If I were in a place and had to choose between the guy in designer duds and the guy dressed casual in nice jeans and a sporty/casual top, I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat.

 

I don't feel comfortable in Jeans, or activewear. It's stupid I know - but I will probably end up dressing down anyway. I've actually known other guys who were below average in physical attractiveness that wore nice clothes too, and I do not think that is a good combination. Dressing up works best for good looking guys, and to a slightly lesser extent, average guys. If you are an odd looking person who dresses up - it looks like you are trying to cover something up, over-compensate; what-have-you ... its like a middle-aged man that suddenly decides to buy a sports car - it looks disingenuine no matter what the circumstances are.

 

Can you talk with your close friends, female friends, about how they perceive you? Sometimes asking for honest, constructive feedback from those who know you best can give you some good clues as to why you're not attracting people.

 

I only have one close female friend and there is no way I could talk to her about this without a lot of awkwardness, maybe this is part of my problem. Regardless, I have been trying to extract some useful information out of my friends; and I think I have some things I can work on (including a bunch of things that I didn't even know were problems).

 

Also, one thing that's a huge turn-off (well, 'cept maybe to golddiggers) is men who flaunt their success....who can't have a conversation without mentioning their intelligence, their degrees, how much $ they make, their snappy car, the cost of their italian leather shoes, bla bla. Do you think you might do this?

 

I always try to gently work this into the conversation, I never brag about it outright, but it almost always comes up, which is probably a bad sign. If there's another myth about women I've bought way too much into (besides the 'looks don't matter' crap), its that they are attracted to wealthy guys; I think this is just like the dressing up part: wealth is a projected mental image that is harmonious with good looks, and dissonant with below average looks.

 

By the way, if anyone is still reading this ... I went to a party last Saturday and ended up talking to a girl. I had made her laugh a couple of times and finally got to talk with her alone later that night. Anyway I thought the conversation was going pretty well (relatively speaking, I could not discern any signs of attraction from her, just the standard 'politeness' I get from every girl I talk to). So anyway I asked her if she wanted to go to a concert or movie or something and she ended up saying no. Horrible story, I know; but at least I asked someone out on a date for the first time since graduating college (which was almost two years ago).

[moimeme]

I never brag about it outright, but it almost always comes up, which is probably a bad sign.

 

Yes, that is a very bad sign. Even if you are talking to a woman who wants a wealthy man, she will be turned off by your obvious attempt to impress her. The people who impress the most are the ones who don't try to impress others at all. A HUGE turnoff is bragging of any kind.

 

As for 'odd-looking' people wearing nice clothes, kindly remember that everybody looks beautiful or handsome to someone. People think Brad Pitt is gorgeous - but not me at all. So perhaps you could also become a little less judgmental. Kindness and generosity of spirit are WAY more attractive than wealthy braggarts with no heart.

[magritte]

Originally posted by moimeme

As for 'odd-looking' people wearing nice clothes, kindly remember that everybody looks beautiful or handsome to someone. People think Brad Pitt is gorgeous - but not me at all. So perhaps you could also become a little less judgmental. Kindness and generosity of spirit are WAY more attractive than wealthy braggarts with no heart.

 

Well that's pretty dismissive. Regardless, its quite obvious that not everyone looks beautiful to someone else if there are people who are alone. People have varying aesthetic sensibilities but they are all the same in the sense that they are genetically programmed to find certain physical features attractive. I won't go into this anymore (read a biology text if interested), but I will say that pretending that physical appearance does not play a very important role in attraction is very detrimental to one's happiness. Just by taking a look at a few other threads I see multiple posts by people who admit they are only interested in good looking members of the opposite sex; I don't see anyone coming down on them for 'being judgmental'; it is in our nature as human beings.

[guest]

Magritte--

 

It sounds like this posting and the responses you're getting are making you feel worse! I hope this one makes you feel better.

 

When I had my first job, I worked with a woman who was extremely eccentric. She was a caring, loving person, and she had a child, 4 dogs, and miscellaneous animals.

 

She was in her early 40s. She had Albert Einstein styled crazy gray hair. She was lanky and walked in a leaning forward position. She was fascinated by worlds that Tim Robbins or Edgar Allen Poe might create.

 

Talk about bad teeth. Hers were NOT just crooked. Hers WERE brown and yellow and grey and missing and crooked. And she smoked. And she was sort of a granola type person--meaning I'm not sure what her stand was on hygeine--bathing, brushing, shaving. Yep.

 

I once had the occasion to help her move. Wow. Hmm. Her house was knee deep in garbage or miscellaneous?. She had so much furniture in there that there were only path ways to walk around in, and those were knee deep in ??. And it wasn't just paper and clothes. My friend said she saw actual bags of garbage, and moldy food and stuff. And this was in rooms even outside the kitchen. Yeah.

 

Like I said, she was a very kind and loving person. I was very close to a close friend of hers.

 

ANYWAY---she seemed to have every DISadvantage, right? Single parent, older, eccentric, seriously unattractive, and not doing anything to enhance her looks in terms of hair care, skin care, healthy habits and hygeine. In fact, quite flagrantly the opposite.

 

HOWEVER. This did not stop her. She had a very healthy opinion of herself. You might even say, she had a high opinion of herself. She knew herself. Her strengths, her likes, her dislikes, her tolerances. She was creative (a writer) and she loved more than anything to write and live in a self-created world. I think she was well aware of her choices around fashion, hygeine, home decor and cleanliness. Probably even aware of her smoking habit and consequent breath/staining.

 

But knowing her--you didn't see that stuff first. You knew her for who she was first, and what she thought of things. You knew her for her writing, her passions and her loves. Her personality, though it was not to everyones liking, was distinctive and she was a proud and happy person.

 

And GUESS WHAT---her lovelife proved to me in my darkest moments that there really is someone for everyone. In her case, there was a carbon copy of her, just in a male form. A pianist.

 

He was SUPER cool! They were perfect together. They looked EXACTLY alike. I found the male version to work for me much better than the female, and yet, they looked alike.

 

Everything else was closely aligned as well. They met through a video dating service--which at the time struck me as odd because you just didn't do that then. It cost like $4000 or something crazy. And I would have thought those who did do it would be more typical folks--the socialite, the athlete, the farmer, the executive---NOT the granola eccentric pagan. At least not in the conservative southern state we lived in.

 

So--that was 11 years ago. Those two got married soon after meeting. They're still together since. I think it's the coolest story and it really affirms my belief that connection is for EVERYONE.

 

So--my insight for you---stay with YOUR feelings and YOUR experience. Trust, despite not experiencing this now, that you can and will have love. Tell yourself the experience is for you and it's about YOU. Not the clothes, the stuff, and the money.

 

Besides---I am someone who was 'popular' and is good looking and has lots of people interested in me... and I have dated men that I thought were U. G. L. Y. !!!!! But I loved them. Loved loved loved them. Was HEARTbroken to give them up. I know tons of gorgeous women who date 'ugly' guys or guys who are much less attractive than them. Case in point: Christie Brinkley and Billy Joel.

 

Also think about 1. Mick Jagger, 2. Ron Jeremy, 3. George Bush, 4. Adam Corrolla, 5. All the men in Trainspotting, 6. Steven Tyler---I could go on and on. These are UGLY men. And they have love and connections.

 

Bottom line--nurture your assets, love yourself and let it happen.

 

xoxo.

[guest]

Oh--

 

A couple of last things--if you're a guy, it just FLAT does not matter if you're ugly. You can be overweight, bald, arrogant, boorish, and poorly dressed AND YOU CAN still get good looking responsible women.

 

In my opinion, women care less about looks and externals and more about the connection they have with the person. They ask

"Do I feel comfortable, loved and connected to this person?" "Would this person protect me?" "How does this person treat me?" "How do I feel about myself and my possibilities when I'm around him?"

 

Also--remember that people's looks change over time. It may not matter that someone's super gorgeous now because with adversity and real life comes physical change. If you've got a solid, loving, caring personality, that withstands the test of time and adversity. Beauty on the inside is a whole lot nicer to grow old with than arrogance or evil on this inside. One wins the sprint distance, the other wins the marathon. And, life is a marathon.

 

xoxo.

[jessicakicksbut]

I know many people in this forum will probably disagree with me, but have you ever considered internet dating since you are shy? I used to have trouble meeting guys that I would consider dating, until I used internet personals. I am a little on the shy side myself, till I get to know a person. Also, I tend to get nervous when guys come up to me and make the first move (mostly because I prefer a shy guy myself). Furthermore, I don't live in a city, just a small suburban community which makes it very restrictive to meet singles. Using internet personals, I met my fiance, whom is very attractive, educated, kind, and loving...not the type of person who people typically think use personal ads.

 

Another thing I like about using the internet for dating is that you can say specifically in your ad what you are seeking in a partner. Of course, there are deceptive people out there on the internet that you must be cautious of, as well as people who put up a false front. Whereever you go though, people will do that whether they hide behind the autonomy of the internet, or they are your next door neighbor.

 

In my opinion, the difference between using internet dating versus traditional dating is analogous to going to a grocery store with a well organized list, enough funds to cover, and a coupon for everything you need versus going to the grocery store not having a clue what you need, not sure how much money you have in your check book, and a bunch of coupon thrown in your pocket.

 

Speaking of money, you may want to bring up how much you make in conversations with women, and try to wear middle-of-the-road type clothes on a first date/meeting so you don't send any wrong messages. Actually, I make as much money as you do, wear clothes that are just a step or two above Wal-mart, drive a car that is 3 years old, and don't let anyone know how much money I make...it's not their business! Besides, I don't consider 50K a year "wealthy"...it is actually just middle class. You need to get the idea that you are wealthy out of your head, it can hurt your perception of reality in the long run!!

[Carly]

Reading these posts, I sense your mounting anxiety over being liked, and I think I am also seeing a pattern to you that is somewhat, well, less than endearing. Here goes:

 

You mentioned you had teeth problems and when Just a Girl2 was just just telling you about how she interprets yellow teeth (she wasn't saying that's YOUR problem), you jumped on her with:

 

"Pardon me, but when did I say I had rotten, yellow teeth and bad breath? And why would I be seeing an ORTHADONTIST about something like that?! .... my teeth and gums are healthy thank you."

 

 

When "Guest" just suggested that everyone looks atractive to someone, you jumped on her:

 

"Well that's pretty dismissive. Regardless, its quite obvious that not everyone looks beautiful to someone else if there are people who are alone. "

 

To Moimeme's practical advice to basically loosen up in your dress code, you responded like a petulant child:

 

"I don't feel comfortable in Jeans, or activewear." (I picture you with folded arms and a pout on your face at this point)

 

And to the other helpful suggestion that you not flaunt your earnings, you seemed to miss the point altogether:

 

"I always try to gently work this into the conversation, I never brag about it outright." [Your being advised here to just forget about the earnings issue altogether -- brag about it outright or gently bring it up, it's still wrong]

 

I think that you are focussing too much interpersonal energy on impressing others and protecting your ego instead of really caring about other's feelings. My hunch is that your parents have this same habit too -- they probably never get to the "heart" of any matter with people, and probably lack emotional closeness.

 

Before becoming successful with girls, you will have to change your approach with people in general. Try to be more gracious and appreciative of people around you in their everyday lives. Focus on looking at THEM instead of how you look to them. Ask someone at work about the picture of their kids sitting on their desk. Ask someone else what they did on the week-end, and as soon as they mention who they were with -- CONNECT! Ask about the people in their lives. Disclose a little bit of personal, heart-to-heart info abour yourself.

 

And one more thing: Does it bother you if you are not the centre of attention in a conversation? Do you find that when people are talking you always have to have an authroitative last word? You mention that you have many degrees. Does this give you the feeling deep down (come on, let's be honest) that you know more than people with lesser eduation. You only know more than them in the areas you have studied. Remember, without exception, that you can learn something from EVERYONE who you meet in life. You just have to allow yourself to be on the receiving end.

 

There is an old book that is now a classic, that I think you should read: Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and influence People. Still in print in paperback. Some people are turned off because it was written by a wealthy business man, but he also studied psychology and learned that you can't get anywhere in life if you can't connect with people.

 

In today's times, these same issues might be called things like "Emotional intelligence," and there are lots of new books on that as well, but I still think that a good start for you would be Carnegie's old classic.

 

And you know what? I think that because you posted your concern here AND you admit to having a problem, AND you keep coming back for more means that you are MUCH further ahead than the many, many MANY other lonely people out there who have no clue where to begin.

 

Also, you are still young. If you learn to connect with people at this point, you are in for decades of interpersonal pleasure -- even if it's not with a romantic partner.

 

And THAT is what makes living this life so worthwhile.

[Debster]

My advice is to read Carly's post again, and again. And then go out and get that book.

[moimeme]

Regardless, its quite obvious that not everyone looks beautiful to someone else if there are people who are alone.

 

I think there is no point in reading Carnegie's book if you are going to indulge in this sort of faulty cause-effect analysis. I don't know what you got your degrees in, but correlation and causation are not the same thing and one would have hoped that, in acquiring one of the pieces of paper, you might have picked that up.

 

However, it is clear from your statement that you are firmly fixed on appearance as the most important source of popularity. None of the wise remarks given you here with respect to the importance of personality over appearance will have any effect on you, apparently.

 

So don't buy the book. Take yourself to plastic surgeons, dermatologists, stylists, and everybody else who can polish you into the most gorgeous human possible. Brag about your $50 K salary (less than six figures doesn't impress, by the way). See what sorts of people you attract. If you're real happy with them, then fine!

[magritte]

Originally posted by guest

Magritte--

 

It sounds like this posting and the responses you're getting are making you feel worse! I hope this one makes you feel better.

 

Yes it did, thank you very much. I think one of my problems is not being able to reconcile the standard wisdom of 'looks don't really matter' with what I see in everyday life. The two actually stand in stark contrast as far as I can tell. If I can actually come to that conclusion about how (un)important looks are to women, then I feel I will be 90% on my way to a solution. But again, this would be a 180-degree turn from what I observe in reality (even taking into account how much values affect observation).

 

I never believed that I would spend my entire life alone; I just feel awful for what has happened in the past and what is going on now. Right now I personally believe that looks become less important in time, but the women I talk to are usually in their early twenties, or even late teens. In my experience physical traits and features still play a very, very important role in who most women around these ages are interested in; not all, but most. I may be totally wrong, but again, it would be very hard to refute this with the observations I have made.

 

To the others, I am quite sure being self-absorbed is definitely NOT my problem; I am quite sure my friends and family would say the opposite in fact. The reason for anyone believing this is probably two-fold: 1) My posts have been about myself and my beliefs, which is the issue at hand 2) I DO feel like I have to justify myself to the opposite sex, because anyone will tell you I am lacking in appearance. That second point is probably more interesting from an analysts perspective, BUT remember that before I had a 'real job' or even my degrees, I was still talking to the opposite sex, and had bad experiences. Trying to flash my assets seemed like a reasonable thing to do at the time, because NOT doing it in the past didn't seem to work either.

I would even go so far to say that I connect with people fairly well; I am generally well liked amongst the people I know, even with co-workers whom I have very little in common with (mostly because of age). I have noticed however that almost all of these non-family relationships have depended on initiation by others - which brings us back to the issue of shyness. I have noticed that it is not difficult for shy people to be well liked or have friends (even if they may have less than a more extroverted person), but it seems to play a much larger role in relationships. My worst nightmare is that someone will be attracted to me and I will never even know about it. Like I said before though, I have seen many cases where it was obvious that a girl was attracted to someone, and I have never seen that behavior focused in my direction.

 

Finally I just wanted to say that at the very least (I am trying to say something nice here) I am honestly impressed by the audacity of a couple of the people that replied in this thread. Trying to tear someone down in a 'help and advice' web board? I'm shaking my head right now - maybe I made some bold claims about what I believe is true, but I ALWAYS stated that such was my opinion - I even followed up one of my beliefs with an 'I know this is stupid ...', which was ingeniously left off of the 'comment' so the protagonist could more effectively prove his or her little point. Bravo. And to the other 95% of the replies I got: thank you, there was some real insightful and intelligent comments, some of which I am still going over in my head.

[moimeme]

Look up the theories of 'selective perception' and 'cognitive dissonance'. Basically, if you believe something, you will seek, and find, evidence which appears to 'prove' what you believe.

 

Either you acknowledge that you, as a human, may not be conducting your 'experiments' correctly because humans by nature are subjective, or else you choose to believe that you have made impeccable conclusions based on completely scientific studies.

 

If you buy a white Volvo, you suddenly see a thousand more white Volvos on the road. That is because now it is of interest to you to see white Volvos. If you believe that lonely people are unattractive and that no unattractive people get partners, then you will not notice unattractive people with partners. You won't notice them, because to see them would be to disprove what you already believe.

 

This is how our brains work. If you learn about it, you'll know to watch out for it and question your 'observations'. Or, you can continue to assert that you have conclusive evidence to prove your point despte all the 'insightful and intelligent comments' sent your way.

[magritte]

Well thanks everyone for the replies, but I've been bombasted with enough cruelty, ignored to the point of utter rudeness and been outright rejected enough to know how important looks are now to women in my age group - they are VERY important. I think 'looks don't matter' is something to say to an average guy that lacks confidence; I have known many, many people and have yet to meet an attractive person who is lonely ... girls like guys that beat them, ignore them or have absolutely nothing in common with them - as long as the guy is good looking time will be made for him; if things get too bad she can move on to the next disaster, given it has a shiny surface.

 

Things change as people grow older: They do. The women have had their fun with all the guys that treat them like crap and find it harder to attract the stud as they grow older, so they settle.

 

If you are wondering where this is coming from ... I'd post what this girl said to me today but I doubt anyone would believe it. I will probably never understand people that take delight in their own cruelty.

[Dazza]

Well, I was just having a surf on the net and just happened to find this forum.

 

I hope the following may assist you in your walk of life......

 

There are cruel people out there, I've seen and met them, we all make judgements, it's in our nature, we also read a Post and sometimes, because we are not "hearing or seeing" the person,interpret(?) it differently to the way it was ment to be.

 

I have lots of friends, have ben seperated for 14months(best thing ever), don't have an issue with meeting girls, but strangely enough, can understand the way it must be effecting you.

 

I probably over analyse people, but I find this comforting because then I can understand why someone may be acting in a certan way.

 

I suppose my secret is learning about yourself, understanding who you are, and then knowing that the only person that you can rely upon in life is you. Become friends with yourself, learn to love who you are, once you can do that, things will start becoming a lot easier.

 

I still get hurt by comments passed, rejection, people not considering how I might be feeling, but I learned to understand why it affected me, and then moved forward.

 

I have done my own social experiments, and can honestly say that when you go out looking, you will never find.

I heard that we all put out different chemicals (like dogs), and our subconsious will detect these "chemicals/odours/things, and cause us to be attracted/interested or the oppisite!

 

I guess what I'm attempting to explain (spelling mistakes and all) is that don't go out looking for someone, you will be let down everytime, and then continue in the downward sprial (your lovelife anyway).

Go out feeling good about yourself, knowing who you are. consider other people, and remember that you are not alone.

Believe that things will happen and they will, generally when you least expect it.

You are noticed, please believe that.

Your match is out there, just accept where you are, and keep on learning. I reckon you would be quite good at that.

 

You have friends, and they are the best things to have. they will always be there for you and accept you for who you are.

 

Learn to understand people, we are an amaizing creature.

 

Best of luck and keep smiling, it will make people wonder what you know that they dont.

 

Dazza

29, good lookin' Aussie male (hey if I dont think it, no one else will!!!).

 

 

"What you get out is directly proportional to what you put in"

[jessicakicksbut]

Please don't mind me saying this...but are you trying to pick-up/attract the type of girl that every guy wants? Are you, yourself going for only the "good-looking girls", because if that were the case, you would be a hypocrite. Not every girl goes for looks. I have a female friend who has the most adorable face in the world...but, she is over 300 lbs. Needless to say, she is not going to pick up a 180 lb body-builder that looks like a model. She usually goes for the guys overwieght like herself, who aren't the best looking. Like you said, sometimes couples can pass as siblings. For this reason, maybe you should back off the girls who are really attractive if you are not what society considers you attractive. Most girls who are attractive have a bit of an aire about them...they are attractive and they know it, so they only want an attractive guy. Not many girls will admit that, and say they won't take a guy for their looks, but I see it all the time! Remember...beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My advice, go find a woman who is beautiful on the inside, who is not the best looking on the outside. You will be happier than if you found a pretty girl who

like guys that beat them, ignore them or have absolutely nothing in common with them - as long as the guy is good looking time will be made for him; if things get too bad she can move on to the next disaster, given it has a shiny surface.

[life suuuuux]

I think everything everyone said is all true. magritte is right. It's alllll about the looks (sorta). People usually end up with someone who is an equivalent, in terms of looks, of themselves.

 

And to, I forgot who said, mention some ugly dudes like adam corolla, etc. (haha adam corolla) Those guys are ugly but they're tall and proportional. Ok maybe not billy joel but still..

 

The other people are right too tho. They're kinda gangin up on this dude cause he get's a little defensive maybe? And they're right too.

 

I guess I can say I truely relate to both sides here. I kinda have the same problem cuz I'm short. So I relate to the point bout girls not making any obvious signs of interest to me. And that is like a subtle rejection in a way. It's not a girl saying "NO GO AWAY" kind of rejection but it's still a rejection. So I totally feel what Magritte is sayin.

 

But beside the short thing, I'm *normal* or whatever heh. So I see how everyone else sees him as bein uptight or defensive or too self-concious and loathin over his problems and focusing on the looks issue.

 

All I gotta say is, for me, I tell people how much I hate bein short and they say..."Dude you aint thaaat short, it ain't that bad...etc" But are THEY short? No... Unless you have to go through your LIFE being short, ugly, etc than you really don't know what it feels like.

 

Of all the reply's I guess the one I agree with most is jessicakicksbut. I think Magriite is attracted to the FINE ASS chikAs with the 5 inch platforms up in the clubs...Because he has the same EYES as attractive guys do. So you gotta become attracted to girls who are more for you. In my case, I gotta go for girls who are shortys, but ironically the short girls are always like..."I want a man whos like 5'10 I don't want to look like two little kids when I'm with my man, and I don't want no short kids..." so I'm kinda in a worse position than you! Anyways, 99% chance that my future girl will be tiny. Yea I think that chick from the BUD LIGHT commercial is fine as hell (The brunette one where they fight in the pool) but NOOOO way I would ever expect her to jock me. Although that would be cool heh.

 

Arite well good luck.

[life suuuuux]

=p

[magritte]

Originally posted by jessicakicksbut

Not many girls will admit that, and say they won't take a guy for their looks, but I see it all the time!

 

I'd go as far as to say the vast majority of girls have looks as their biggest factor in attraction, though *NONE* of them would ever admit it. I was talking about this with a friend who basically said that being physically attractive is 'your ticket into the game'; that is - you are going to be judged on other things, but you are not even going to get THAT chance if she does not like the way you look.

 

Sadly, it is not as easy for an unattractive guy to find an unattractive girl. First of all it is infinitely easier for women to hide their ugliness with make-up or provacative clothing. It is much, much harder for a guy to mask an ugly face, though I am looking into one possible way it can sort of be done (building up up my body, seems like it would change women's perception on an intuitive level ... ).

 

Also unattractive women can be sluts, and be with as many guys as they want. There is no such equivalent for a guy; sexual promescuity is pretty much directly the result of being physically attractive, you can't go the other direction.

 

Couple these aspects with the fact that good looking guys often have quite a few sexual partners and you end up with a relatively small portion of guys hooking up with a much larger number of women. At the risk of sounding callus - an unattractive girl basically just has to wait for one of those good looking guys to come around, or they can be promiscuous - no need to settle for a guy with a malformed face.

 

So anyway, in a roundabout way I have sort of come back to my first post: What, if any, strategies can an unattractive guy implement to be attractive to the opposite sex?

 

Some people have touched upon this (avoiding bars for example is probably a good piece of advice here), but perhaps I can elicit the response I am seeking by asking a simple question to the younger (late teens, early twenties) women that read this:

 

What would a guy with an ugly face have to do to win you over?

 

I think any honest answers to this question would be useful. And thanks for reading this far!

[dvdv]

Listen,

 

I had your problem a few years ago. I had painfully little success with women. I felt unattractive. I prided myself on my intelligence and that's about it. I thought dating was all about looks and that all women were concerned with was looks. Then I pulled my head out my ass.

 

I had bad acne too (which only now seems to have gone away after 3 courses of acutane). But that meant nothing. My low self-confidence and refusal to admit the problem was with me were holding me back. I started working on myself mentally. I started being more succesful with women. Im not gonna lie and say my life now resembles something out of a Jay-Z video but it's a whole lot better.

 

Your biggest problem has nothing to do with acne scarring or crooked teeth. It's the adversarial vibe you give off. It's readily apparent in your postings. Id be willing to bet it's apparent in your body language. You're incorrectly viewing dating as something of a war. Few girls would wanna date somebody who gives off such a negative vibe. Do you really think you're coming across the best you possibly can if you're thinking about her shallowness all the time you're speaking to her?

 

It's you "the honest intelligent guy cursed with acne scars and bad teeth" versus "the shallow female population who are only looking for egomaniacal jerk with six pack abs". Of course, there are a ton of shallow girls in the world. There are a ton of shallow guys too. Let them find each other (and hopefully not procreate).

 

All women are not the same. I can't tell many how many beautiful, smart, sweet girls Ive known who have dated "average" guys. You know why they dated them? Because they were rich? No. Because they were cocky cumwads? No. They were intelligent and interesting guys with healthy dose of self-confidence. And they presented themselves as such.

 

Start finding aspects of your physical appearence and personality that you like and concentrate on them. Just start talking to girls on a regular basis. Find concersation topics that make you combfortable. Find out what qualities you're looking for in a girl. Get more practice flirting and dating. If you've been your best and a girl is rude to you when you ask her out, then forget her. She's obviously a nasty wench who would be a lousy lay.