Pascal's Wager, Biblical Contradition

[disgracian]

Well said, Quankanne. If you learn valuable things throughout life, and then when you die, there is nothing, what was the point in learning what you did? What was the point of living? That right there should signal that "something is up"... as in God, up in Heaven.

No offense intended, but that is really unimaginative. Has it somehow escaped your attention that valuable things learned throughout life are not lost upon the individual's death, but in many cases recorded for posterity or passed on through their children or students?

 

If what you say was true and knowledge does not pass from generation to generation, then we'd all still be living in the stone age.

 

Seriously, stop and have a think about what you say before you "Submit Reply".

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

That agony - the anguish over the possiblity that life has no "larger" meaning other than the propagation of the species - is exactly why I think it likely that all religions are creations of man, to fill a void and soothe that anguish.

I think this is an extremely accurate observation. Cultures all over the world have developed religious beliefs that center around assuaging us of our greatest unresolved fears: of death, and of meaningless in such a vast and unsympathetic universe.

 

What better way to avoid coming to terms with your own mortality than to conceive of an eternal afterlife? What better way to brush aside your own insignificance than to convince youself you are the central part of the Almighty's Great Plan?

 

Religion caters to a psychological need that is common to our species. That's the reason it exists everywhere but in such wide diversity. If there was really a singular god who was interested in us then what other religion could compete with such obvious truth? What could oppose the will of an omnipotent deity? Moreover, what such deity would tolerate such misinformation and be content to sit back and allow deceit to run rampant to the point where guessing the correct path into Heaven is nothing more educated than a spiritual lottery?

 

It's absolute nonsense. It's about time it was treated as such.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

From my perspective, it seems like people that do not believe in any kind of God have essentially made themselves their own God and therefore do have some sort of a belief in God that being themselves.

It's rather difficult for somebody who rejects the existence of a god to think themselves a god. Unless of course they disbelieve their own existence! Perhaps you need to think a little bit more about this.

 

Cheers,

D.

[nittygritty]

Not believing in A god means exactly that... I haven't stepped up to fill the "void" in my own life, because there is NO void. It really is that simple.

 

Your understanding of what life is all about does not include the need for personal spiritual growth because you have NO void. Is that included in your beliefs? As I said before my intent is to try understand this, not to offend.

 

Do you believe that people have a conscience? If so, what is it from your perspective?

[sb129]

Your understanding of what life is all about does not include the need for personal spiritual growth because you have NO void. Is that included in your beliefs? As I said before my intent is to try understand this, not to offend.

 

Do you believe that people have a conscience? If so, what is it from your perspective?

 

I have no void that needs to be filled by religion.

I don't have all the answers, philosophy doesn't give you all the answers, but encourages critical thinking for oneself. As for personal 'spiritual growth' just because I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I don't believe in morals, being a good human being and growing as a person, it is possible to do so without religion. I can still enjoy life, love, be loved, and contribute to society without believing in god.

 

Of COURSE I have a conscience. Which do you mean? Do you mean a conscience as in being aware of the effects your actions may have, or having a conscience as in 'being conscious'... I guess they are both forms of self-awareness, but there are conscious people out there who don't always have a conscience if you get what I mean.

[Moose]

Hey Moose- haven't seen you around for a while... Hope things at home are going well.

sb129 - Thanks! Things at home are going quit well now.....thank you so much!

And so was this opportunity not made available to the millions of thinking human beings who lived and died before the time of Christ? Are they doomed to hell, or will they spend eternity in purgatory?

I don't believe in purgatory. But to answer your question, before Christ, Moses laid down God's law. They had a choice to obey, or not. ....

which is not to say that no threats exist... Seems to me that eternal damnation in hell is probably considered to be somewhat of a threat in most people's hearts and minds.

It's not a threat. It's a choice. Much like if you were at an intersection and you wanted to continue, but there is another vehicle coming into your path. Do you stay, or do you go? The logical move is to stay put until the potentially fatal accident has gone by, then continue.

 

SOME people go regardless of the ensuing crash, and suffer for it.

It just sounds like it's when you question - not just asking questions, but if you possibly discover or investigate true questions or concerns in your heart (if the acts of obedience are not "automatic"?) - then, there certainly appear to be "threats to be concerned about."

That's not so. You only need to be born again once. You become a new creature, a brand new creature. You'll need to grow in your new spiritual life so it's common to question, (not just ask questions), about your new found faith. In fact, it's encouraged!

[Moai]

Your understanding of what life is all about does not include the need for personal spiritual growth because you have NO void. Is that included in your beliefs? As I said before my intent is to try understand this, not to offend.

 

Do you believe that people have a conscience? If so, what is it from your perspective?

 

I only have a quick moment, as I am heading into the wilderness for the weekend, but I wanted to zip in a quick response.

 

Everyone undergoes spiritual growth all the time. Belief in a diety is not required for this.

 

Most people do have a conscience. What effects the conscience is largely learned behavior, ditated by culture. For example, in Western culture, it is wrong to set your wife on fire if her dowry is deemed unsatisfatory. In some places, it is common. The perpetrator of such a thing experiences no crisis of conscience whatsoever.

 

It has also been demonstrated that animals have a sense of consience as well. More evidene for this comes in every day.

 

There are excellent books out there on the evolution of consciousness, I suggest you head to the library and check them out.

 

I'll be back in town after the weekend, and at that time I'll provide more information, as well as respond to a ouple of other interesting threads that are going on.

 

And I have missed you also, Moose. I hope that I can infer from your tone that you were not absent beause of anything serious? That is my hope in any event, and it is good to have you back in the forums.

 

I am off to the doin's....bliss awaits me!

[Moai]

My "c" key isn't working 100%, sorry for the typos....

[Moose]

And I have missed you also, Moose. I hope that I can infer from your tone that you were not absent beause of anything serious? That is my hope in any event, and it is good to have you back in the forums.

 

I am off to the doin's....bliss awaits me!

Thanks everyone. Nothing too serious.....the best way I can explain what's going on without giving away too awful much is that I've been experiencing some, "growing pains"......

 

I hope you have an AWESOME trip Moai.....be safe man!

[Jinnah]

 

Did you talk to every Christian and ask them if they were born into a Christian family or ever gave it thought? If not, you cannot make that statement (you wouldn't even be able to say "for the most part". Who said Christians are "automatically obeying" besides you? It's a conscious choice, actually. To say Christians are not intelligent enough is just judgemental, stereotypical, and completely ignorant... how annoying. All I can say is that this post is not intelligent enough for a serious response... it's all rubbish.

[JamesM]

It's rather difficult for somebody who rejects the existence of a god to think themselves a god. Unless of course they disbelieve their own existence! Perhaps you need to think a little bit more about this.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

I think the meaning here is that when one assumes/believes that there is no Higher Being, he or she then may/must consider himself or herself the Higher Being. If we believe that there is nobody greater, then we must be the greatest.

 

I even got the meaning of this statement.

 

I am not sure I agree that it is always correct, but if there is a God, and we do not believe in His existence, then I am guessing that in His Eyes, we have usurped His Throne.

[JamesM]

As for personal 'spiritual growth' just because I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I don't believe in morals, being a good human being and growing as a person, it is possible to do so without religion. I can still enjoy life, love, be loved, and contribute to society without believing in god.

 

Of COURSE I have a conscience. Which do you mean? Do you mean a conscience as in being aware of the effects your actions may have, or having a conscience as in 'being conscious'... I guess they are both forms of self-awareness, but there are conscious people out there who don't always have a conscience if you get what I mean.

 

Where does this Moral Law originate? Who decided that it is wrong to do something? Since right and wrong is relative, from where do morals without a God originate?

[JamesM]

 

Everyone undergoes spiritual growth all the time. Belief in a diety is not required for this.

 

Most people do have a conscience. What effects the conscience is largely learned behavior, ditated by culture. For example, in Western culture, it is wrong to set your wife on fire if her dowry is deemed unsatisfatory. In some places, it is common. The perpetrator of such a thing experiences no crisis of conscience whatsoever.

 

It has also been demonstrated that animals have a sense of consience as well. More evidene for this comes in every day.

 

There are excellent books out there on the evolution of consciousness, I suggest you head to the library and check them out.

 

I'll be back in town after the weekend, and at that time I'll provide more information, as well as respond to a ouple of other interesting threads that are going on.

 

And I have missed you also, Moose. I hope that I can infer from your tone that you were not absent beause of anything serious? That is my hope in any event, and it is good to have you back in the forums.

 

I am off to the doin's....bliss awaits me!

 

First, enjoy your trip. I am jealous.

 

SO, conscience evolved? Why were the choices made the way they were made?

 

Who decided that it is wrong to set your wife on fire?

 

I am waiting for you responses. This looks to be interesting.

[VIP]

I think the meaning here is that when one assumes/believes that there is no Higher Being, he or she then may/must consider himself or herself the Higher Being. If we believe that there is nobody greater, then we must be the greatest.

 

There is no Higher Being, but there is an intelligent Universe, in which everything is interconnected, and everything and everybody is divine.

[VIP]

Where does this Moral Law originate? Who decided that it is wrong to do something? Since right and wrong is relative, from where do morals without a God originate?

 

If something is good for all people at all times in all situations - it's moral, if not - it's immoral.

[Moose]

Calm down there Jinnah, let's be productive with his response shall we....?

An automatic obedience is nothing to be proud of, that just means you are not intelligent enough, that you don't trust your own perceptions of reality and yourself. It also means that you are scared, Christianity is based on fear.

First, I don't boast about, "automatic obedience". In fact, I'm quite the opposite. I beat myself up over it in fact because I never feel obedient enough!

 

Am I scared? Are you kidding? Christianity=Fear? That's nonsense. Why should I fear anything, or anybody, least of all death!?

 

When you accept Christ, you're set. Nothing and nobody, (including yourself), can seperate you from Him.

 

Not intelligent? Hmmmm....interesting theory......these documents on my wall and my 6 figure income begs to differ.....

 

You are correct that I don't trust in myself completely. It would be foolish for anyone to do so. That's just my opinion.....

[VIP]

Who decided that it is wrong to set your wife on fire?

 

Five hundred Thousand people were convicted of witchcraft and burned to death by the Church in Europe between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Confessions were obtained thru Torture using "the strappado (hands tied behind back, and hoisted by the wrists), the rack, the thumbscrew, the witch hunters used chairs with sharp points, heated from below, shoes with pricks, bands with needles, red-hot irons, red-hot pincers, starvation, and sleeplessness.

[VIP]

The problem with Pascal's wager is that the assumption that belief in God is sufficient to get one into heaven is false. Demons believe and are condemned.

 

An intellectual belief simply in God's existence is not sufficient for entry into heaven. One must agree with God and accept His terms for salvation. After all, heaven is a place where we voluntarily give up our "right" to sin, to spend eternity with the Holy One, who will turn us into perfect creatures because of our desires to be such on earth.

 

It's all about the reward, going to Heaven. What happens if you don't obey? That's right, you go to Hell. That's where the fear is coming from.

[Moose]

Five hundred Thousand people were convicted of witchcraft and burned to death by the Church in Europe between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Confessions were obtained thru Torture using "the strappado (hands tied behind back, and hoisted by the wrists), the rack, the thumbscrew, the witch hunters used chairs with sharp points, heated from below, shoes with pricks, bands with needles, red-hot irons, red-hot pincers, starvation, and sleeplessness.

Ok.....the question was, "WHO"?

 

Who convicted who?

 

Who obtained confessions?

 

These acts where done by men. Not God. Not religion. Mere men.

[Jinnah]

Calm down there Jinnah, let's be productive with his response shall we....?

 

Sorry, Moose. I get really upset when people criticize others for something just because they don't understand it. As you can see, I'm not perfect, nor claim to be. This is why I am so glad to be a Christian... I am forgiven for my sins (bad temper, anger, etc. - it's also great that I get to repent and work on it and know that God understands that we all make mistakes). I guess I better apologize to VIP for my temper. I apologize for my snappy response, VIP. Read Moose's instead.

[JamesM]

If something is good for all people at all times in all situations - it's moral, if not - it's immoral.

 

And who may I asked decided what is good for all people at all times?

[Moose]

It's all about the reward, going to Heaven. What happens if you don't obey? That's right, you go to Hell. That's where the fear is coming from.

Maybe to you it's all about the, "reward"......not so with many of us.

 

It's all about the here and now as well. Guidance, peace, and joy in everyday life man!

 

What happens if I don't obey? Oh.....I'll pay for it, that's for sure.....but I will still go to Heaven! That's right, I SAID it, I will still get to Heaven.

 

It's not by works, good deeds, or being a, "good person".....it's not how much money I donate or the hungry that I feed.....

 

It's only through Christ. He is THE only way. Of course I try my best to obey, but I'm only human. There is only One that is perfect, and that is Who God sees when He looks at me.

 

So again,.....where's the fear?

[Jinnah]

It's all about the reward, going to Heaven. What happens if you don't obey? That's right, you go to Hell. That's where the fear is coming from.

 

Jesus is so great and did so much for me that I follow Him and try to be more like Him in return (and feel bad when I mess up)... it is not a response out of fear of going to hell.

[JamesM]

Five hundred Thousand people were convicted of witchcraft and burned to death by the Church in Europe between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Confessions were obtained thru Torture using "the strappado (hands tied behind back, and hoisted by the wrists), the rack, the thumbscrew, the witch hunters used chairs with sharp points, heated from below, shoes with pricks, bands with needles, red-hot irons, red-hot pincers, starvation, and sleeplessness.

 

And millions of Jews were gassed by Hitler in WW2...how is either statement relevant?

 

I am not sure how that answered the question. Explain.

[JamesM]

It's all about the reward, going to Heaven. What happens if you don't obey? That's right, you go to Hell. That's where the fear is coming from.

 

I think most Christians would tell you that it is not just the fear of Hell. It is much greater....it is the gratitude that God loved them enough to provide Salvation from that Hell. The motivation of love is greater than simply a reward for obedience. It goes deeper...it is the knowledge that God has saved them despite their disobedience.