Why I believe God exists......

[woodsfield]

God never has to prove His existance, and no human has to prove His existance to any heathen.

 

As for the longivity of the OP, could it be the work of the devil???

 

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe in God in any way. some may feel sorry for me for believing in an "imaginary BEING or FRIEND" (but read the sig).

 

yes, as my brother has always said, RELIGON (not God), which is warped by powerful, influential individuals has caused a lot more harm than good. this fact turns alot of people of to religon, but it should not shield them from God.

 

atheists; answer this....what does happen when we die?? is that it?? do you believe in any kind of spirit within the human body?? why are we here?? just curious.

 

i won't knock you for being a non-believer, if you don't knock me for believing.....heathens

[Art_Critic]

I think we all need something to believe in.

I couldn't agree more.. A belief system is the thing that keeps balance in our lives.. We have to have something or someone to give our problems to.. a higher power as it were

[Rooster_DAR]

I think we all need something to believe in. If you believe in God then that's great. If you don't, then you have your own views to believe in. We will never have 100% of the worlds population believe in one God, or that there is no God and we are all here because of some cosmic accident or whatever. So why waste your time trying to sway others opinions when it pointless?

 

The undeniable fact is no-one can be absolutely positive they are right because we simply do not know. Big Bang/Evolution can be explained as how God created the Earth/Universe, or it happened naturally. Many different facets to the argument, but it still comes down to the point that simply we won't know until we die. If there is a heaven, then gloat, if there isn't... well then you can't do much cos you don't exist lol.

 

Very much an agree to disagree policy to be adopted I would think.

 

I could not agree more, I think it's our nature to feel like we are not alone and to be able look to spirituality to get us through a tough world. Look at some of these older cultures, they all seem to embrace some sort of god(s) or spirit(s) to guide their lives. The fact that there are so many different gods and spirits should be the first clue to possibly disproving that there is any real divine spirit at all. Again, I still believe it's very possible there was/is a creator, but it's not the god we have been taught to believe by traditional religion.

 

Cheers!

(Under the influence of Satan!)

[JamesM]

I feel I should step in and give the OP a quick reminder on probabilities, since his initial estimates are a little astray.

 

The odds for the universe being exactly the way it is are:

 

1:1

 

Thank you and goodnight.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Another fallacy which is quoted frequently. It is correct, but it is incorrect.

 

Yes, every time we "predict" what has happened, it is always 1:1. When we apply statistics to past events, the result should always be 1:1.

 

Anybody right now would not say that the odds of me winning the lottery is 1:1. That would be a foolish statement. But IF I had won, then the odds of me winning is exactly 1:1, because that event happened. Yet that does not mean that the odds of me winning again are 1:1. And the odds of me winning again are not higher than they were prior to me winning the first time. Again, those would be foolish statements.

 

The odds of me being the ruler of the world is incredibly small. No one would say that my chances are 1:1, but if I became the ruler then the chances become 1:1. So when we calculate statistics regarding what has occurred, we will always get 1:1.

 

The odds of any of us being here at this time reading this post...since you obviously are here...is again 1:1. But truthfully, the odds as laid out compared to all other choices of activities you could do is not 1:1.

 

The odds of you or I being born AFTER the event has occurred is exactly 1:1, but the odds of one of us being born as we are if we looked at it fifty years ago is much greater. So it is believed that if you look at the world now, it is useless to show odds for that even having happened as it did. Why? Because since it happened, then obviously, the event is 1:1.

 

The odds of the terrorists crashing the WTC on Sept 11 is now 1:1, but the odds of them doing another act of terrorism in the world somewhere is not 1:1, but it is greater than it would have been prior to Sept 11.

 

The odds that there is another world like ours cannot be 1:1 simply because our is here. The odds that whatever caused us to be here at this time...whether abiogenesis/evolution or God...cannot be 1:1 simply because it happened. Then every event that has ever occurred in the world is 1:1. And then the odds of it happening theoretically become greater simply because it happened once. In some cases, this can be true. But this does not mean that in every case this is true.

 

For many, the odds of something happening the way it did shows that things do not simply happen "by chance" but for a reason. For some, the odds of something happening just happened, so therefore there is no mystery as to why or how or if there is a plan.

[JamesM]

I think we all need something to believe in. If you believe in God then that's great. If you don't, then you have your own views to believe in. So why waste your time trying to sway others opinions when it pointless?

 

The undeniable fact is no-one can be absolutely positive they are right because we simply do not know.

 

Many different facets to the argument, but it still comes down to the point that simply we won't know until we die.

 

We do all have to believe in something. Why?

 

Even many atheists believe in some philosophy that gives them "comfort." It may be a philosphy that has no God, but it is a philosphy. Why?

 

As for swaying others, why do we do it? I agree...it is pointless. Yet many people feel that when someone posts "Why I Believe...," they cannot simply read it and let it go. Why? (Read it, agree or don't..and move on). So why do we feel that we must counteract and give arguments why Moose is wrong? (Is he trying to sway anyone or is he simply stating why he belives what he believes?) This one I can answer. I think it is because...many like to discuss to learn, some like to respond so they can show that the OP is crazy/ignorant, others like to respond to "prove" to themselves that they have the "best" belief system, and some like to challenge the OP simply for fun.

 

Whether God can be proved or not, there will always be atheists and believers. As an atheist will say, if it was proved tomorrow that God could not exist, many would deny it. And so it goes, if God came to Earth "tomorrow" and made Himself known, many would still deny Him. Wait...Jesus came as a man 2000 years ago, yet we refuse to believe that He was God. ("Because He wasn't really God!" Point made.)

 

DC, we agree on much of what you have written. And we will never know what comes after death until we have "crossed over." Yet as much as we like to think that "you believe what you want, and I will believe what I want, and we will live happily ever after" is great, the fact remains that there is a truth...we will all die and something will happen. Will it be simply blackness and nothing more? Will it be an eternity with or without God? Or will it be a reincarnation back to Earth? This is the biggest questions we face, and yet these are the biggest questions we want to ignore. Truth is discovered by learning, and ignorance leads to unncecessary suffering. And many theories can be proposed, but there are millions of people who "know" what is after death, but none of them are alive to tell us.

[Moose]

Shut up, Moose. Just shut up. You had me at the white dwarf binaries.

:lmao:.......thanks!

so god is physics?

Yes, God created physics.

that says nothing of a personal, benevolent god, all it does is list things that exist. it doesnt list all of the things that don't exist. what does that prove?

It doesn't? Ok....remember that the next time you make brownies, or a cake.....just throw it all in a bowl and let it set for while, no intervention with it all..... and let's see what you come up with.....

I fail to see how the OPs statement of facts proves anything. You could use the same argument to prove the existence of the tooth fairy.

 

Sorry OP, you've wasted your time here.

I didn't think I made this so hard to understand??? Again, a recipe is only as good as the Chef.....

Which means 84% of the worlds population have conflicting views. They can't ALL be right.

They can all be wrong, but they can't ALL be right......right?

The OP was a nice try, but you really can't prove the existence of a god like that, its a total paradox to use "physics" to prove the existence of a god!!!

I disagree. Physics, Science, Nature all came from God. He created it, and in His creation we can see, touch, feel and experience His work.

Thank you and goodnight.

Did I miss a show?

[Moose]

I think it is because...many like to discuss to learn, some like to respond so they can show that the OP is crazy/ignorant, others like to respond to "prove" to themselves that they have the "best" belief system, and some like to challenge the OP simply for fun.

Let me clarify something real quick.....I started this thread not only hoping to learn what others think and feel, but also as a promise to another member so I wouldn't de-rail his thread.....

[Jinnah]

... And we will never know what comes after death until we have "crossed over." Yet as much as we like to think that "you believe what you want, and I will believe what I want, and we will live happily ever after" is great, the fact remains that there is a truth...we will all die and something will happen. Will it be simply blackness and nothing more? Will it be an eternity with or without God? Or will it be a reincarnation back to Earth? This is the biggest questions we face, and yet these are the biggest questions we want to ignore. Truth is discovered by learning, and ignorance leads to unncecessary suffering. And many theories can be proposed, but there are millions of people who "know" what is after death, but none of them are alive to tell us.

 

Good thought-provoking questions here.

 

I personally know someone who was clinically dead and then brought back... there's definitely life after death. Everyone definitely has a soul... laugh, make fun if you want, be sarcastic... that's your choice. Believe it or not, what can I say? You just better be sure you have your ducks in a row. Or is it your ducks all lined up? lol

[SoHotZanzibar]

Good thought-provoking questions here.

 

I personally know someone who was clinically dead and then brought back... there's definitely life after death. Everyone definitely has a soul... laugh, make fun if you want, be sarcastic... that's your choice. Believe it or not, what can I say? You just better be sure you have your ducks in a row. Or is it your ducks all lined up? lol

 

Can you expand on why there is definitely life after death when your friend was brought back?

[JamesM]

Can you expand on why there is definitely life after death when your friend was brought back?

 

I think that Near Death experiences would be a topic for another thread. Doing so here will derail Moose's topic.

 

 

But many people who have had them swear that there is a life after death. Whether this proves that God exists...that remains to be seen. That something happens after death...that seems to be either ingrained our brain or it is from our experiences and education. It is very difficult for people to believe that death results in nothingness.

 

Then the question returns...why do so many believe in a Higher Being?

 

Moose, you have raised some excellent reasons to believe in a God. I am interested in know where you obtained your statistics.

[Jinnah]

Can you expand on why there is definitely life after death when your friend was brought back?

 

If Moose is okay with it, I will share the story on here. I will call the person I am talking about as well... I want to make sure I give only accurate details of what happened. It's not a long story, as he was obviously brought back to life (and that usually happens within minutes when it does happen), but it really meant something to me. Also, if you research, you will find that, as James said, it has happened to other people.

[Moose]

JamesM, I sent you a PM.....

 

Jinnah, I think it's too late, someone JUST started a new thread on NDEs.

 

We can read it there though......thanks for sharing!!

[ThumbingMyWay]

No need to twist my arm Moose.

 

I love this kinda of stuff. I have read books that discuss this very thing. The constants in nature and what not. They are so precise and so accurate for life, that if one change by a fraction of a fraction, life as we know could not exists. Its quite overwhelming to think about.

 

 

The other things I have read are inregards to bio chemistry and the minute structure of cells and DNA.

 

Science has broken down processes of chemicals down to irreducible complex compounds of amino acids.

 

They define irreducible complex machines as taking a process and removing all external items until you get to a point where if you removed anymore the mechanism would not function. They used a mousetrap as an example. The standard mouse trap has all the required parts to perform its function. if you remove the spring, it wouldn’t work, if you removed the bait lever, it wouldn’t work, etc.

 

So they have broken down amino proteins to there most basic setup to where they perform what they are supposed to do. if you tweak them anymore, they don’t work.

 

For instanst, the protein that creates the cells for the eyes must have a certain setup, proteins for making bones need a certain set up. Now some of these proteins are set up the same, but connected differently on the molecular level.

 

What these scientist havent deducted is, what created these or told these proteins to connect that way? If we take science logic, there has to be a reason they do what they do. How do they know they are a blood cell protein or a bone marrow protein?

 

Its embedded in the DNA. They just know….but how do they know?

 

You can have all of these amino proteins in the so called “primordial soup”. and yes, some of them came together and formed mirco organism, the building blocks of life. BUT no one has ever made them come togher and create life as we know it. Living breathing creatures.

 

Its almost like they were created to come together to perform certain functions that could create life as we know it.

 

So these bio scientist have gotten down to the nitty gritty of life on a molecular level, but they cannot explain how it came to be.

 

To me….is so perfect yet so complex….one should highly consider that maybe, just maybe….we were created this way….and not happenstance.

 

 

The other thing the book touched on was the body itself. The idea of you have a body of chemicals. A brain that makes the body function….but we also have a non-physical conscience that makes us aware and separates us from other living creatures.

 

Its this soul that drives us, otherwise we would run on pure instincts like other animals.

 

 

So when God created us in his image….its my belief it, he, whatever you want to call him, created us in an image as defined by the DNA structure of amino proteins (the most complex mechanism in life) and our conscience to make us aware of this universe. but most importantly it’s the soul/spirit/conscience he gave us……which he also promised will NEVER die and will stay eternal with him or without him or it or her, etc…

[Moose]

Good post TMW!! Good to see you're still around! I like your points, there are many, MANY more......but let's look at the following joke I found today to see where I'm getting at.....

 

Teacher: Tommy, look outside....do you see that tree?

Tommy: Yes, I do

Teacher: Can you see the grass?

Tommy: Yes I can

Teacher: Go outside and look up, tell me if you see the sky

Tommy goes outside and returns shortly after.....

Teacher: Did you see the sky?

Tommy: Yes I did.

Teacher: Did you see God?

Tommy: No I didn't.

Teacher: That's because he's not there. He doesn't exist.

 

A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The teacher agreed and the little girl questioned the boy.

 

Little Girl: Do you see the tree outside?

Tommy: Ye

Little Girl: Do you see the grass?

Tommy: Yessssss......(getting tired of answering the same questions)

Little Girl: Did you see the sky?

Tommy: Yessssss

Little Girl: Do you see Teacher's mind?

Tommy: no

Little Girl: Then based on what we've learned today, she doesn't have one.

 

More to come later.....

[Pyro]

I think we all need something to believe in. If you believe in God then that's great. If you don't, then you have your own views to believe in. We will never have 100% of the worlds population believe in one God, or that there is no God and we are all here because of some cosmic accident or whatever. So why waste your time trying to sway others opinions when it pointless?

 

The undeniable fact is no-one can be absolutely positive they are right because we simply do not know. Big Bang/Evolution can be explained as how God created the Earth/Universe, or it happened naturally. Many different facets to the argument, but it still comes down to the point that simply we won't know until we die. If there is a heaven, then gloat, if there isn't... well then you can't do much cos you don't exist lol.

 

Very much an agree to disagree policy to be adopted I would think.

 

Exactly. He started this thread just to share his own opinions and his own beliefs. He is not trying to shove his beliefs or opinions down anyone else's throat.

[Jinnah]

Okay, so I posted the near death experience on the other (new) thread for those of you who want to read it.

[Yosef]

Aristotle had an argument about religion with an athiest, and this is how it went (or very relatively close):

 

Athiest: How can I believe in God when you supply me with no evidence?

 

Aristotle: If, by chance you're wrong, and God is real, and he does pass judgment, then you will be left without a soul, trapped on Earth as dust without thought for eternity. If you do, believe, however, then when God passes judgment upon the people of the Earth, you will be saved and be in perfect peace for all eternity. And If God doesn't exist yet you still believe, then nothing bad has come from it.

 

Now don't the Pros outweigh the Cons?

 

If God Is Real as a Believer:

You are saved and placed in perfect peace for eternity.

Not a Believer:

You are cast aside by God's wrath and left to a wasted eternity.

 

If God Isn't Real as a Believer:

You die like everyone else.

If God Isn't Real but not a Believer:

You die like everyone else.

 

If I have a choice between perfect, eternal peace VS normal death, I choose perfect, eternal peace.

 

"God answers all questions with a voice that can be heard only if you're willing to listen."

[Rooster_DAR]

trapped on Earth as dust without thought for eternity

 

 

Well, I doubt this could be possible. In a few billion years the sun will engulf the solar system and wipe out the earth and eventually none of the solar system will even exists except as space dust.

[disgracian]

Another fallacy which is quoted frequently.

What are you referring to as a fallacy? My point was to highlight how weak a grasp most people have on probability, and how situations can be contrived to fit one's bias quite easily.

 

For instance, creationists choose to assume a fated outcome when calculating their odds. They say, "the odds of the earth being x distance from the sun, and so on are astronomical! Therefore God must have created everything." Let's apply this to a mundane scenario like laying out a standard deck of cards. There's 52 cards, so there are 52! possible combinations, or:

 

80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000:1

 

Why, that's about the same odds as a tornado sweeping through a junk yard and assembling a 747 jet, fuelled and ready for take-off!

 

See what I mean?

 

More sensibly, the odds of any one sequence is exactly the same as any other. So coincidental patterns, such as every card in perfect order from lowest to highest is exactly the same as one that appears completely random.

 

Hence my 1:1 comment earlier. The universe with its current properties is no more or less likely than any other. An appeal to odds in this case is entirely vacuous.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Yet many people feel that when someone posts "Why I Believe...," they cannot simply read it and let it go. Why? (Read it, agree or don't..and move on). So why do we feel that we must counteract and give arguments why Moose is wrong?

Why does Moose feel the need to post in the first place? Why can't he merely have his beliefs and be content with that? Obviously he was aiming for some kind of response by posting on a public forum.

 

I'm not having a go at him, I'm just using this approach to counter your apparent idea that we have to justify why we're replying without counterpoints to something we believe is wrong. Apologies in advance if this was not the intention behind your line of questioning.

 

Cheers,

D.

[JamesM]

Why does Moose feel the need to post in the first place? Why can't he merely have his beliefs and be content with that? Obviously he was aiming for some kind of response by posting on a public forum.

 

I'm not having a go at him, I'm just using this approach to counter your apparent idea that we have to justify why we're replying without counterpoints to something we believe is wrong. Apologies in advance if this was not the intention behind your line of questioning.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Apologies accepted. I rarely get one from you.

 

You are right. He was expecting a response, and he got one.

 

No, my comment was made in response to DC. She seemed to think that Moose should not even post his thread, because it seemed as if he was trying to sway people. My comment was...if we don't like his swaying people, then ignore his thread. But...me as I know you, cannot ignore the opportunity to once again discuss religion and other controversial topics.

 

I don't think Moose did it to sway people. He did it to generate discussion. That was my minor point. I didn't make that comment to generate a discussion.

 

I don't feel that anyone has to have a reason for making points of disagreement. My only "requirement" when I engage in debates with people is that we both try to keep respect for the other as a person and as an intellectual. When someone decides that he/she has all the answers, then I ask why bother? I never feel that someone has to even believe in everything he or she argues. (Some of my best debates have been when I argued the opposite side of which I believe).

 

Okay, I got way off topic.

[JamesM]

What are you referring to as a fallacy? My point was to highlight how weak a grasp most people have on probability, and how situations can be contrived to fit one's bias quite easily.

 

For instance, creationists choose to assume a fated outcome when calculating their odds. They say, "the odds of the earth being x distance from the sun, and so on are astronomical! Therefore God must have created everything." Let's apply this to a mundane scenario like laying out a standard deck of cards. There's 52 cards, so there are 52! possible combinations, or:

 

80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000:1

 

Why, that's about the same odds as a tornado sweeping through a junk yard and assembling a 747 jet, fuelled and ready for take-off!

 

See what I mean?

 

More sensibly, the odds of any one sequence is exactly the same as any other. So coincidental patterns, such as every card in perfect order from lowest to highest is exactly the same as one that appears completely random.

 

Hence my 1:1 comment earlier. The universe with its current properties is no more or less likely than any other. An appeal to odds in this case is entirely vacuous.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Exactly...thanks for making the point I was trying to make. The odds of those cards dropping in perfect sequence are almost impossible. The odds of anything that is highly complex happening is incredibly high.

 

I know what you are saying. You say since it happened, it is futile to give probabilities. Since there is no God, then it must have happened by chance.

 

So, when we look at the earth, the complex life, the detailed parts of each creature, the exact distances of everything...we have a choice. We can see it as planned or we can see it as it happened by chance.

 

You say...there is zero evidence for a God, so this must have happened by chance and couldn't have planned.

 

I say....the complexity of all around us demands a Creator and is evidence that there must be a Higher Being, so there must be a God.

[norajane]

atheists; answer this....what does happen when we die?? is that it?? do you believe in any kind of spirit within the human body?? why are we here?? just curious.

 

i won't knock you for being a non-believer, if you don't knock me for believing.....heathens

 

1. Our bodies decompose, unless they're cremated. Some people mourn the loss of our physical presence, and hold on to their memories of us. Some people inherit our stuff and have to pay taxes on it.

 

2. Yep, that's it. Once our bodies and brains are no longer functioning, that's it, we're dead, no more consciousness, no more thought, no more emotion, nothing, nada, poof, gone.

 

3. Not a spirit in the sense of something holy. I believe we each have a spirit - more of an aura, really - that characterizes who we are...like some people have a fun-loving spirit about them, some have a negative, nasty spirit, some have a thoughtful, logical spirit, some have a restless spirit, a loving spirit, an aggressive spirt, a gentle one, etc. But it's the sum-total of our characteristics, nothing holy like I think you mean.

 

4. To "Try to love one another right now right now right now..."

4a. To survive and procreate, like every other living creature on the planet.

[disgracian]

Exactly...thanks for making the point I was trying to make. The odds of those cards dropping in perfect sequence are almost impossible.

But what is a "perfect" sequence? And you overlooked the fact that any sequence is just as likely as any other. So, if the universe was slightly different then it would merely be slightly different. Life may have evolved elsewhere, or the life here may have simply been different to what it is. Where your difficulty lies is in being attached to this particular set of circumstances, this particular sequence if you will. It's no more miraculous or impossible than any other; it's just simply the one that happened to occur. By the same token, if you lay out the deck of cards, you don't think to yourself that you just accomplished something almost "impossibly" improbable.

I know what you are saying. You say since it happened, it is futile to give probabilities. Since there is no God, then it must have happened by chance.

That's not quite what I'm saying, but you're not too far wide of the mark. I'm not saying that there isn't a god, I'm saying that there isn't any particular need to appeal to one based on a misunderstanding of probability.

So, when we look at the earth, the complex life, the detailed parts of each creature, the exact distances of everything...we have a choice. We can see it as planned or we can see it as it happened by chance.

"Chance", as you put it, works for me. What you may not realise is that you are sliding down a slippery slope by explaining away one miraculous occurance (life, the universe) with the existence of something even moreso (God). I wonder what the odds are of a being as complex as God existing. Unimaginable! That avenue just poses more questions than it answers; in fact it doesn't answer anything, it just transfers the problem.

I say....the complexity of all around us demands a Creator and is evidence that there must be a Higher Being, so there must be a God.

To which I say, who/what created your Creator? If the buck has to stop anywhere, it's perfectly able to stop with the universe. Being the sum total of all time and matter, it has effectively existed forever anyway.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Jinnah]

I believe he started this thread because the subject was brought up in another thread... so in order to avoid stealing the first thread, he started this one.