"I just saw Alicia(the ex) at the gym"

[JCD]

Also, why would you want a woman that keeps everyone at arm's length, who is not seeking friendship with others, who won't open up, etc. Dave, this girl was not meant to be. However, I tell you who is. A girl that is happy, who has friends, who runs to you to make you happy. That's the kind of girl you need and not one that you feel like doing so much work with little pay off.

[NorCalDave]

Dave, that is not true at all. You make excuses to run into her (the gym, church, etc) and therefore you are root cause of your pain continuing, not your ex.

 

 

 

Other than her beating you on the head with a hammer, I don't know how much more clearer she can be.

 

 

 

The rush you are feeling is lust, not love and it's not healthy.

 

 

 

Until you decide to take charge of your life and your emotions by really doing something about it (say, seeking counseling), you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes in the future.

 

Yeah, I know it. It's all true.

Except the "lust" part.

True, I do lust for her, but deep down I also care about her as a person.

Seeing her crying that one Sunday for like 2 hours was pretty rough.

I didn't know how to help or what to do. It was like the only time she let me touch her...I was rubbing her head/hair.....but anyways, deep down there is love between us both. I think this has become just a joke because it's apparently sooo toxic for BOTH OF US to continue in contact with one another.

I need to (for once) sack up and change up my routine.

Otherwise it's the same ol'e mess over and over.

 

I know, it all starts with me and I have the power! Like He-man.

So, yeah, I hear ya. I definitely do.

[NorCalDave]

Also, why would you want a woman that keeps everyone at arm's length, who is not seeking friendship with others, who won't open up, etc. Dave, this girl was not meant to be. However, I tell you who is. A girl that is happy, who has friends, who runs to you to make you happy. That's the kind of girl you need and not one that you feel like doing so much work with little pay off.

 

 

Yeah, it would be nice to have a balanced relationship and one not so one-sided effort-wise. Man, I always felt stressed around her because I felt like I was carrying the weight of the relationship most of the time.

And I could never do anything right around her.

I got picked on alot and I put up with it and played it off...

...I can see that my fault in this is giving her the power to hurt me. Over and over.

I'm not saying I'm a big victim, but rather one who seemed/seems to enjoy pain.

Man, I am so sick of this crap though, honestly.

Tired of waking up and thinking about that bitch:mad:

[Mitch R.]

Are you sure this isn't the same gal I was dating

 

Just an update, I've been getting out, meeting new people (women included ), and things are getting better. I'm not thinking about her nearly as much and when I do I don't feel that pain. I believe I've accepted it and also accepted that there's someone out there for me.

 

My former relationship too was one sided and I too felt that stress you mentioned. It got to the point where I said "what's she even doing here". But, nonetheless, I had to go through the grieving process and I'm now moving on, I choose not to stay stuck on the past. If I start to feel down when I'm alone, I pick up the phone or get out of my place and go do something. This has worked wonders, trust me on this. Hang in there man, this too shall pass and bigger and better things lay ahead.

[NorCalDave]

Are you sure this isn't the same gal I was dating

 

Just an update, I've been getting out, meeting new people (women included ), and things are getting better. I'm not thinking about her nearly as much and when I do I don't feel that pain. I believe I've accepted it and also accepted that there's someone out there for me.

 

My former relationship too was one sided and I too felt that stress you mentioned. It got to the point where I said "what's she even doing here". But, nonetheless, I had to go through the grieving process and I'm now moving on, I choose not to stay stuck on the past. If I start to feel down when I'm alone, I pick up the phone or get out of my place and go do something. This has worked wonders, trust me on this. Hang in there man, this too shall pass and bigger and better things lay ahead.

 

 

Mitch, unfortunately we did date a similar girl. I have never come across a person like her before. I almost wish I never met her...but I am also grateful for the experience. I did experience love with her and there were some very happy, blissful times. Those are the memories I will take with me forever.

The courting, the flirting, the first date, the camping trip, the nights in the hottub, the movies we watched, the dinners we had, the church experiences, the intimate moments, basically.

All those things I'll never forget, I'm pretty sure of that.

But there are just so many other bad things that have happened...so many times she has left me alone, missing her with question marks in my head. So many times she's chosen to not include me in her life. Never introducing me to her parents. Sisters and nieces and nephews, yes, but parents, no.

Getting told all the time, "Why can't you be older, I'd marry you in a second."

That hurt alot, because I can control my character and actions, but not my age.

I also don't want to feel that pressure and stress again in a relationship.

I was always trying to prove to her how worthy I am...how I could make $$ and provide for her, how I acted older than my age, how I was so mature, etc.

It was never enough.

And just like you, there came a point where I said to myself, "What's she even doing here????"

I thought, there has got to be some balance!! I can't give, give, and give and not get anything back.

Gosh it would be nice to have a nice, available, loving, giving, woman in my life, who I am insanely attracted to.

I bet I would forget about the ex alot easier!

[Mitch R.]

They do sound similar. To summarize it, I used to tell her "In this relationship, I feel like I'm going down a one way street". Same thing here regarding "it was never enough" You can give for so long until you feel your being taken for granted.

 

All I can say is this: I've chosen to move on, and I'm getting out there meeting new women. Thus far I can see that there are indeed women out there who will appreciate rather than take for granted.

 

I'll bet if you look back to the beginning, you'll recall red flags that were there early on. When go back to the first month, I remember things that didn't sit right with me.

[NorCalDave]

They do sound similar. To summarize it, I used to tell her "In this relationship, I feel like I'm going down a one way street". Same thing here regarding "it was never enough" You can give for so long until you feel your being taken for granted.

 

All I can say is this: I've chosen to move on, and I'm getting out there meeting new women. Thus far I can see that there are indeed women out there who will appreciate rather than take for granted.

 

I'll bet if you look back to the beginning, you'll recall red flags that were there early on. When go back to the first month, I remember things that didn't sit right with me.

 

 

Yes, I felt I was being taken for granted this last time because here I was re-arranging my life to create space in my life and house for a supposed "friend" who I still had feelings for. I was bending over backwards and accomodating her, and I had to pretty much beg for a HUG. A frickin HUG!

Sure she was displaced and broke and depressed but damn woman, you can show me a little love if I'm bending over backwards for you!!

 

Red flags in the beginning. Yes, when I think about it, I could see some very early on. You know the biggest (I was completely blinded at the time)? She started dating me while her ex was still living in her place.

I would go over to her place, and all her ex's thing's were there...he even called the house one time while we were both there, and she had a full-on conversation with him right in front of me, telling me to "shh" while they spoke. And then she got off the phone with him and we made love.

Red flag right there that I didn't pay attention to.

There were some other ones. But I am the type that likes to have faith in people and believes that everyone is good at their core.

But some people are just damaged beyond repair, and I think that's the case with her. I wanted to see her change and us have a happy ending, but I learned that people don't really change.

I want to start giving my time to people who are just, NICE. People who deserve my time. Ya know?

[CaliGuy]

Yes, I felt I was being taken for granted this last time because here I was re-arranging my life to create space in my life and house for a supposed "friend" who I still had feelings for. I was bending over backwards and accomodating her, and I had to pretty much beg for a HUG. A frickin HUG!

 

Sure she was displaced and broke and depressed but damn woman, you can show me a little love if I'm bending over backwards for you!!

 

Dave, you were helping her out with an expectation that she would love you back for doing so. Remember my reference to the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"??? This is what is called a "Covert Contract." You did something nice for her with an expectation of something nice from her in return (to love you back and give you affection) WITHOUT TELLING HER. In other words, your nice intentions weren't really nice at all. She had an obligation to you that you never made clear to her. This is not nice, this is manipulative.

 

Red flags in the beginning. Yes, when I think about it, I could see some very early on. You know the biggest (I was completely blinded at the time)? She started dating me while her ex was still living in her place.I would go over to her place, and all her ex's thing's were there...he even called the house one time while we were both there, and she had a full-on conversation with him right in front of me, telling me to "shh" while they spoke. And then she got off the phone with him and we made love. Red flag right there that I didn't pay attention to.

 

That's not a red flag. That is a GIGANTIC RED SLEDGEHAMMER pounding you on the head and you ignored it.

 

There were some other ones. But I am the type that likes to have faith in people and believes that everyone is good at their core.

 

It's one thing to have faith. Faith is based off things you know to be true about someone. You didn't know her and you completely ignored the obvious red flags.

 

But some people are just damaged beyond repair, and I think that's the case with her. I wanted to see her change and us have a happy ending, but I learned that people don't really change.

 

Your ex has problems, yes, but so do you. You have areas of improvement to work on. You can not place all the blame on your ex. As much as we'd like to think we're all perfect and they are all wrong, that is just not the case.

[NorCalDave]

Dave, you were helping her out with an expectation that she would love you back for doing so. Remember my reference to the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy"??? This is what is called a "Covert Contract." You did something nice for her with an expectation of something nice from her in return (to love you back and give you affection) WITHOUT TELLING HER. In other words, your nice intentions weren't really nice at all. She had an obligation to you that you never made clear to her. This is not nice, this is manipulative.

 

 

 

That's not a red flag. That is a GIGANTIC RED SLEDGEHAMMER pounding you on the head and you ignored it.

 

 

 

It's one thing to have faith. Faith is based off things you know to be true about someone. You didn't know her and you completely ignored the obvious red flags.

 

 

 

Your ex has problems, yes, but so do you. You have areas of improvement to work on. You can not place all the blame on your ex. As much as we'd like to think we're all perfect and they are all wrong, that is just not the case.

 

 

So yes, I pulled a covert contract...manipulative..not nice...yes I am not perfect and I have my problems too...CG, did you ever pull this covert contract thing?

I think you relate to being a doormat because you were a doormat too?

That book reeeeeally helped you see clear, huh?

Dang I need to go read that once and for all.

 

So, if I am to blame for being manipulative in my "helping" actions, she is to blame too I feel for using me when she knew I had feelings for her.

I don't think the blame should be pointed so much at me.

I take responsibility for my actions. I was wrong, I was selfish, I was manipulative....what can I say, I wanted her back.

I already apologized to her this past Sunday...I left a lengthy message on her voicemail telling her that I can see clearly how my actions were not right. Which is why we made the best decision possible...cut the chord and move on.

I guess what I can take from this is not to be a doormat in any other of my relationships...to not be the "nice guy" or the martyr....to not do favors for people while expecting something in return....to not ignore red flags (or giant red sledgehammers)...to not expect things from people when they are telling you they have nothing to give.

Holy cow!! I think I just found the answers to the questions i have been asking for so long: "Why did I have to get involved with this woman?"

 

The answer is to learn from all these mistakes and make sure not to repeat them with the RIGHT girl, right?

[CaliGuy]

So yes, I pulled a covert contract...manipulative..not nice...yes I am not perfect and I have my problems too...CG, did you ever pull this covert contract thing?

 

Yes, but at the time I did not realize what I was doing. When I read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and saw in black and white how screwed up my behavior was, that really had a solid impact and caused a complete transformation.

 

I think you relate to being a doormat because you were a doormat too?

 

I used to be, absolutely.

 

That book reeeeeally helped you see clear, huh?

 

It put things into a perspective I could easily understand, yes. My behavior was very doormat-ish.

 

Dang I need to go read that once and for all.

 

Yep.

 

So, if I am to blame for being manipulative in my "helping" actions, she is to blame too I feel for using me when she knew I had feelings for her.

 

If she knowingly took advantage of your feelings, then yes. If she really thought you were just trying to be nice and help her out with no expectations in return, then no.

 

I don't think the blame should be pointed so much at me.

 

We're not talking about her. We're talking about you. You can not control her and she is not your responsibility.

 

I take responsibility for my actions. I was wrong, I was selfish, I was manipulative....what can I say, I wanted her back.

I already apologized to her this past Sunday...I left a lengthy message on her voicemail telling her that I can see clearly how my actions were not right. Which is why we made the best decision possible...cut the chord and move on.

I guess what I can take from this is not to be a doormat in any other of my relationships...to not be the "nice guy" or the martyr....to not do favors for people while expecting something in return....to not ignore red flags (or giant red sledgehammers)...to not expect things from people when they are telling you they have nothing to give.

Holy cow!! I think I just found the answers to the questions i have been asking for so long: "Why did I have to get involved with this woman?"

 

The answer is to learn from all these mistakes and make sure not to repeat them with the RIGHT girl, right?

 

Just read the book. I recommended it to you a very long time ago. Had you read the book sooner you might have avoided the heartbreak you are feeling now and long have moved on to someone much better for the NEW you.

[NorCalDave]

Yes, but at the time I did not realize what I was doing. When I read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and saw in black and white how screwed up my behavior was, that really had a solid impact and caused a complete transformation.

 

 

 

I used to be, absolutely.

 

 

 

It put things into a perspective I could easily understand, yes. My behavior was very doormat-ish.

 

 

 

Yep.

 

 

 

If she knowingly took advantage of your feelings, then yes. If she really thought you were just trying to be nice and help her out with no expectations in return, then no.

 

 

 

We're not talking about her. We're talking about you. You can not control her and she is not your responsibility.

 

 

 

Just read the book. I recommended it to you a very long time ago. Had you read the book sooner you might have avoided the heartbreak you are feeling now and long have moved on to someone much better for the NEW you.

 

 

CG, she is in the wrong too, just as much as me, because she admitted to me while she was living with me that she already knew how I felt about her before she moved in. She said, "It was obvious how strong you felt about me."

So she knew how I felt, moved in knowing I was soft for her, and she knew she would reject me if I made an advance.

That means we BOTH were in the wrong.

I'm sorry, but you don't move in with an ex when you KNOW that they still have feelings for you and there's a risk those feelings could return and complicate things.

She knew.

 

 

Whatever. Most people have told me we're BOTH to blame for that debacle, and I agree.

Guaranteed Sunday I will go get that book.

[CaliGuy]

CG, she is in the wrong too, just as much as me, because she admitted to me while she was living with me that she already knew how I felt about her before she moved in. She said, "It was obvious how strong you felt about me."

 

It doesn't matter if she is wrong or not. You are aware of this fact, so use it to help break you of her spell. Stop being concerned with her actions because in the end, you LET her do this to you. You allowed it to happen.

 

You can not control her. The only thing in life you have complete control over is YOURSELF.

 

So she knew how I felt, moved in knowing I was soft for her, and she knew she would reject me if I made an advance.

That means we BOTH were in the wrong.

 

Again, this comes down to you allowing it to happen. You should have laid down the law to her BEFORE she moved in. That way when she said NO THANKS you would have seen first hand that her motivation to move in with you was not because she loved you.

 

I'm sorry, but you don't move in with an ex when you KNOW that they still have feelings for you and there's a risk those feelings could return and complicate things.

She knew.

 

Deep down, you knew too.

 

Whatever. Most people have told me we're BOTH to blame for that debacle, and I agree.

 

I have never said she wasn't wrong. She is too. What I have repeatedly stated is that YOU allowed it to happen. People can not cause pain in your life if you don't let them. You know what she is like and that she is a user. Strong, confident men do not allow women to manipulate them or take advantage of them.

 

Guaranteed Sunday I will go get that book.

 

I promise you if you read the book and heed the advice, you will be changed man.

[NorCalDave]

It doesn't matter if she is wrong or not. You are aware of this fact, so use it to help break you of her spell. Stop being concerned with her actions because in the end, you LET her do this to you. You allowed it to happen.

 

You can not control her. The only thing in life you have complete control over is YOURSELF.

 

 

 

Again, this comes down to you allowing it to happen. You should have laid down the law to her BEFORE she moved in. That way when she said NO THANKS you would have seen first hand that her motivation to move in with you was not because she loved you.

 

 

 

Deep down, you knew too.

 

 

 

I have never said she wasn't wrong. She is too. What I have repeatedly stated is that YOU allowed it to happen. People can not cause pain in your life if you don't let them. You know what she is like and that she is a user. Strong, confident men do not allow women to manipulate them or take advantage of them.

 

 

 

I promise you if you read the book and heed the advice, you will be changed man.

 

I want to be a changed man. I will get that book Sunday and read.

And yes, I let her hurt me, regardless of who is at fault. I caused my own pain the second I told her she could rent a room in my house.

I knew she wasn't looking to date, so I got desperate and manipulated.

It's over and I am going to learn from it.

[CaliGuy]

I want to be a changed man. I will get that book Sunday and read.

And yes, I let her hurt me, regardless of who is at fault. I caused my own pain the second I told her she could rent a room in my house.

I knew she wasn't looking to date, so I got desperate and manipulated.

It's over and I am going to learn from it.

 

Now that, amigo, is progress I'm proud of you!

[shockandawed]

CG,

 

The Barnes and Noble website is showing several books with this title..who is the author?

 

Sounds like a good read for all of us.

[mental_traveller]

This is why you will continue to fail in your relationships, Dave.

 

You are much more concerned with WHAT a woman is than WHO she is. This is why you'll allow women to treat you like dirt because what you really want is sex.

 

I hear you describe your first-drink date as a hottie. Great. But WHO is she and what is she all about?

 

Until you get your prorities straight in your relationships you're going to continue falling face first into the "nice guy" syndrome.

 

Exactly.

 

Dave, if what you want is sex, then just screw around and have fun. Don't try to turn a ****-buddy into a girlfriend, let alone live with one. What were you thinking?

 

Find a hot piece (or two) of ass, and have fun. Do not let it go any further.

[CaliGuy]

CG,

 

The Barnes and Noble website is showing several books with this title..who is the author?

 

Sounds like a good read for all of us.

 

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" - ROBERT A. GLOVER

[oppath]

I got the ebook version and it helped a lot. I could take the nice guy test, and I was not a nice guy, so I was perplexed. But when reading it, there were a couple character traits where I was a doormat! While the test/quiz revealed I wasn't the nice guy in need of help, because I was only a nice guy in 1-in-5 areas, boy, did it reveal where I needed to change.

 

Basically, you do "nice" things because you want something out of it -- love, affection, sex -- but a lot of those nice things are manipulative. There is nothing wrong with doing those things if they bring you joy and you clearly communicate to your partner why you are doing them. Basically, don't do something nice without somehow asking for something nice in return. That's not to say you can't be sweet, it means asserting what you need and asking for it.

 

People are less willing to take advantage of you if you have made it clear what you want and what you expect.

 

Regarding your ex: hells yeah, she was wrong too. Any empathetic foresight on her part would have shown her that you did want more; she knew it. But because you didn't make it clear, you tried to nice-guy manipulate her, and she took advantage of you. Is she to blame too? Yes, but YOU let it happen, and afterwards, you felt like a chump.

 

Don't do a nice thing for a woman unless she knows what you are after because you were assertive in asking for it, even if that assertion was slightly subliminal.

[underpants]

I feel like the only girl holding on to this.

 

NCD...this girl is toast...nuff said.

 

However, I want to post a thread on the ...deeper matters of what this might cause this ...pooh/cycle/sillyness...(male or female). I need to get my thoughts together.

 

Gosh, boys make me sooo mad sometimes.

[oppath]

I feel like the only girl holding on to this.

 

NCD...this girl is toast...nuff said.

 

However, I want to post a thread on the ...deeper matters of what this might cause this ...pooh/cycle/sillyness...(male or female). I need to get my thoughts together.

 

Gosh, boys make me sooo mad sometimes.

 

Not sure what you mean underpants? If it is in regards to the nice-guy syndrome, being nice is often manipulative because you are doing it to get something, but if that something isn't asserted to that woman, it is not nice at all. You shouldn't do nice things for a woman in HOPES she lets you get to know her better; you should do nice things for a woman because she knows you want to get to know her better, and that you expect her to return that investment. It is a subtle, but big difference. It's like interest on top of principal -- not that big a deal for a short term investment -- but it adds up.

[underpants]

I agree a little OpPath...

 

I don't know this book and I am sure it has alot of good points.

 

I have been played by both the 'nice guys' and the 'mean/challenging?' guys. Whatever...history.

 

Maybe there should be a book called ...Mr. Genuine Guy.

 

Sorry...I am pouty and still collecting my thoughts. However...I am feeling a post rising because I am noticing a ...trend...across alot of boards (and it quite frankly scares me).

[oppath]

I look forward to your post.

 

I don't agree with the challenge camp at all, you know, the "make yourself unavailable" school of thought. Sometimes you should be unavailable because you should live a full life, but you should genuinely have things going on.

 

It's not about being mean, and it is not about being challenging. The pickup school stuff is for the most part, very un-genuine, which is actually fine, as long as you make clear to each girl you just want to have a good time.

 

No More Mr. Nice Guy is a very different book. It's actually all about being NICE, but it is about asserting your needs as well as asserting boundaries. Some guys never become vulnerable because they aren't genuine. Other guys aren't genuine but become vulnerable. Somewhere in the middle is best: you allow yourself to become vulnerable, but whoever you are dating knows what your boundaries and expectations are.

 

Norcaldave never really set firm boundaries with his ex, and there were numerous times after the breakup he didn't state what he wanted. He would beat around the bush hoping that not stirring the pot would get him what he wanted, and yes, he was being nice to her, doing things for her, just because he like her. The problem was he didn't state "I like you. I'm doing this because I am hopeful things will develop with you." He kept that hope on the inside, and when she wouldn't give him what she wanted, he'd flip out and feel taken advantage of. Those feelings only happened because he LET them happen. With any foresight she knew he wanted more, but it was still his responsibility to let her know what he wanted and what he was not willing to tolerate. He never revealed those things, all the while doing nice things for her. That is not nice. It is manipulative. It is trying to gain something without disclosing your intentions.

 

Look forward to your post though.

[underpants]

Well,

 

I hope I can live up to my angst .

 

Thanks though. Actually you helped muse me a little. I jotted down some target points based on some of what you said.

 

Also I feel a little more crappy after just noticing all the love??? that Cali got for his rather innocent question/action. However, in a way that whole thing leds me right back to my original thought.

 

I will sleep on it and hopefully make more sense when I have some thought behind it.

[CaliGuy]

I agree a little OpPath...

 

I don't know this book and I am sure it has alot of good points.

 

I have been played by both the 'nice guys' and the 'mean/challenging?' guys. Whatever...history.

 

Here we go again There are three kinds of me.

 

Nice guys (doormats)

Tough guys (jerks)

And BALANCED men.

 

The "Genuine" guy you are referring to is a BALANCED man. Nice when he needs to be and a jerk when he needs to be. The key is to know WHEN to be either and strive to be down the middle.

 

Maybe there should be a book called ...Mr. Genuine Guy.

 

You are seeking a well balanced, confident, self-assured man who isn't a door mat or a jerk. There are plenty out there. You just have to know how to identify them.

 

Confident, self-assured people naturally attract confident, self-assured people. In order to recognize the traits you want in other people, you have to posses them yourself

 

Sorry...I am pouty and still collecting my thoughts. However...I am feeling a post rising because I am noticing a ...trend...across alot of boards (and it quite frankly scares me).

 

There are a lot of people who don't understand the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy." It doesn't teach you how to be a jerk, it teaches you how to be a well balanced man. How to be that strong, confident, self-assured guy that all women (for the most part) really desire. But the way Dr. Glover lays the information out, he starts with the "door mat" syndrome and why men are that way and how to exorcize that abhorrent behavior from your system.

 

If I have to give one book, aside from the bible of course, that has made a major impact on my life, this would be it.

[CaliGuy]

Also I feel a little more crappy after just noticing all the love??? that Cali got for his rather innocent question/action.

 

Meh, I guess because I try to be helpful to others that somehow it makes me impervious to feelings, failure, emotions, rejection, etc. It seems that the people on LS think I am superhuman or something.

 

I'm just a regular guy, like every other guy here, who's been through the trenches and made it back. My threads always get bloated, but that is partly due to me not taking s--t from people.

 

It's one thing to give me your opinion but it's another to insult me or suggest that you know exactly what my intentions or motives are in my life. As I've said many times, until you walk a mile in my shoes, don't tell me what I feel