How do you know when the fat lady is singing?

[Mustang Sally]

Thanks, all, for your opinions.

 

To the guys who have responded to this thread:

I am COMPLETELY aware how telling my H how I sometimes feel about sex with him (not always, but sometimes - especially of late) would make him feel. Destroyed, pretty much. Not because I am the "be-all, end-all" of womanly virtue and sex-appeal, but because it would be so utterly...hurtful to hear that sort of thing from your spouse. And I do NOT wish to hurt him in such a low way. Geez. I know I set myself up for being the Queen B*tch of all B*tches on LS by admitting these feelings, but I finally had to GET IT OUT. And this was the forum that I chose.

 

That is why I have told him everything SHORT of saying "Sex with you sometimes disgusts me - makes me want to throw up." I feel I can't lie to him about feeling very...uh...NOT in the mood from time to time (come on - he would know, anyway), but then again, I cannot really say the stuff that I feel when (I am angry that) he wants it and I don't want to be intimate with him. Hell, I know I have resentment, but I can't really (REALLY) believe that THAT is the sole reason I feel this way sometimes..?I honestly do not even KNOW why I feel that way sometimes. But I feel it, just the same.

 

It's not merely a low-libido thing. Actually, I have a pretty high libido. Although, it IS cyclical, not an every-day-of-the-month-no-matter-what kind of thing.

 

And I have told him, and TOLD him, AND TOLD HIM that he should be free to find a woman who is EVERYTHING to him that I am not. I don't want to keep him here, in any sort of "prison."

 

And that is when he cries. And tells me that I am the best thing to happen to him, and he doesn't want that for our children (because he grew up in a broken home). And then I don't fight it anymore because he IS my best friend. I LOVE him as my friend. No one knows me better, good, bad and ugly. So I don't want to hurt him.

 

But the passion is not there for me right now.

And hasn't been for a LONG TIME. Not just months to a few years...a LONG TIME.

 

And, again, that makes me feel so sad. Hopeless. At fault. Like I'm not doing enough. But I don't know what to do anymore.

 

To those (ladies, I think, mostly) that said I should leave: Thank you for your opinions, too. I appreciate your words of advice, like you will probably never know. I'm not trying to make excuses, although that is really what this amounts too, but it's just been HARD for me to take that leap. For many reasons.

 

1) We have 4 kids. They are young. Oldest is in middle school. Youngest 2 not in school yet. It absolutely BREAKS MY HEART to think of them growing up without seeing both of their parents at every night as they go to sleep, or when they wake in the morning, or at birthday parties, or ball games, or parent-teacher conferences, etc. You get the idea, and we've all heard it before. But it does. It really does break my heart. It's not like we openly fight and make their lives horrible by being together. That would be different. (Maybe?) I have said before: I don't know if I could survive their pain. And I (think I) can survive mine...

 

2) All the social/religious implications. I live in a small community where this would be a MAJOR issue to deal with. I know it's ridiculous, but I'm being honest about it. My own family would practically disown me, I'm sure. It would obviously be my fault, they love my H (everyone does!) and they would NEVER understand this being a reason for D'ing someone. In my world, we (are supposed to) stay till the end. That is the standard.

 

3) Truthfully, I don't know if I would ever find a FRIEND like him again. And, while I know I have the strength of character to live out the rest of my life alone, if that is what is in the cards, it does make me sad if that is what happens. Let's face it. I would be a divorced mother of FOUR, with a (more than) full time job...how would there ever be time to find another relationship? I'm not exactly a "prize" package - I would have a LOT of baggage, and I know it. So, this prospect (of being alone) makes me sad. And I know that is selfish. FWIW, I do NOT let thoughts of this OM fool me into thinking that he and I would eventually get together. I do know better than that.

 

And there is more, but I will end on that note for tonight.

 

Direct: I think you might be right about the counseling. I need to more seriously investigate that. And he is a relative "stranger" in the house to ME. But he is there quite a bit, actually. It is just that when he is there, I prefer not to be (and I have plenty of work to do at the office...). So we are like ships passing in the night, often. We do try to have a dinner out together once every few months or so.

[Mr. Lucky]

For many reasons.

 

1) We have 4 kids. They are young. Oldest is in middle school. Youngest 2 not in school yet. It absolutely BREAKS MY HEART to think of them growing up without seeing both of their parents at every night as they go to sleep, or when they wake in the morning, or at birthday parties, or ball games, or parent-teacher conferences, etc. You get the idea, and we've all heard it before. But it does. It really does break my heart. It's not like we openly fight and make their lives horrible by being together. That would be different. (Maybe?) I have said before: I don't know if I could survive their pain. And I (think I) can survive mine...

 

2) All the social/religious implications. I live in a small community where this would be a MAJOR issue to deal with. I know it's ridiculous, but I'm being honest about it. My own family would practically disown me, I'm sure. It would obviously be my fault, they love my H (everyone does!) and they would NEVER understand this being a reason for D'ing someone. In my world, we (are supposed to) stay till the end. That is the standard.

 

3) Truthfully, I don't know if I would ever find a FRIEND like him again. And, while I know I have the strength of character to live out the rest of my life alone, if that is what is in the cards, it does make me sad if that is what happens. Let's face it. I would be a divorced mother of FOUR, with a (more than) full time job...how would there ever be time to find another relationship? I'm not exactly a "prize" package - I would have a LOT of baggage, and I know it. So, this prospect (of being alone) makes me sad. And I know that is selfish. FWIW, I do NOT let thoughts of this OM fool me into thinking that he and I would eventually get together. I do know better than that.

 

All really good reasons. I tried to stay in my first marriage under similar circumstances for those reasons and more (financial, friends, etc.). Simply put, regardless of my good intentions, I couldn't do it. Perhaps you're a stronger person than me, but I think you'll find a time when the stress of pretending to be something you're not starts to manifest itself in profound ways - poor health, anger, depression, indifference. You start to understand why a coyote is willing to gnaw it's own leg off to get out of the trap! When you can't be "you", that's too big a price to pay...

 

Mr. Lucky

[OpenBook]

Mustang, it looks to me like the basic building blocks are still there in your M. And something tells me you know you'd be leaving a good thing.

 

Well, I'm here to "testify" that the grass is NOT greener on the other side. No matter WHO you end up with, there will be issues. Maybe not the same issues, but just as significant and serious (if not more).

 

It sounds like your H loves you so much he would WANT you to feel like you're being your "authentic self."

 

Maybe what you feel you're lacking isn't about your H, but in a lack of a creative outlet? or just some time away to "reboot" yourself??

 

I'm just clutching at straws here. I just don't want to see you (or anyone) walk away from good love. It's too rare and precious. It is NOT in abundance out there.

[Bobby NoBrains]

Seems to me you're putting too much importance on "passion". Except for the spark that seems to have gone on vacation, it sounds so far that you have a good marriage and a good man. Don't give up so easily. Maybe you both need to re-invent yourself or maybe you're just looking for some excitement. Or maybe there's more here that we don't know about ?

 

If it's just about sexual desire or passion, maybe there is something that the two of you can explore with each other in terms of finding new and creative things to do that would show the two of you in a new light to each other.

 

Marriages have lasted on far more flimsy grounds, and they've broken up in spite of being on a much stronger footing also. Maybe it's about what you want. If you want out, then your sub-conscious behaviour will all be towards getting you out of there. If you want to continue, then you need to look at this from a totally fresh perspective. Get some help if you think that might work.

 

I think I haven't been able to communicate my angst at your situation very well, but I'm saying that if you have so much good there, don't give up on it so easily. I am currently separated after a 10 year marriage for problems which seem in-surmountable. And I'm still wondering if I've done the right thing. If you don't have any huge reasons for doing this, then the problem lies elsewhere within yourself, and not with the marriage. As long as you have a spouse who is kind, considerate, loving and caring, everything else should be a part of the marriage, not the gist of it. Maybe you can work on this a little more before giving up ...

 

I dunno if I've done a good job of of getting across to you, but wth ...

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

[IamASelfishSOB]

Thanks, all, for your opinions.

 

To the guys who have responded to this thread:

I am COMPLETELY aware how telling my H how I sometimes feel about sex with him (not always, but sometimes - especially of late) would make him feel. Destroyed, pretty much. Not because I am the "be-all, end-all" of womanly virtue and sex-appeal, but because it would be so utterly...hurtful to hear that sort of thing from your spouse. And I do NOT wish to hurt him in such a low way. Geez. I know I set myself up for being the Queen B*tch of all B*tches on LS by admitting these feelings, but I finally had to GET IT OUT. And this was the forum that I chose.

 

That is why I have told him everything SHORT of saying "Sex with you sometimes disgusts me - makes me want to throw up." I feel I can't lie to him about feeling very...uh...NOT in the mood from time to time (come on - he would know, anyway), but then again, I cannot really say the stuff that I feel when (I am angry that) he wants it and I don't want to be intimate with him. Hell, I know I have resentment, but I can't really (REALLY) believe that THAT is the sole reason I feel this way sometimes..?I honestly do not even KNOW why I feel that way sometimes. But I feel it, just the same.

 

It's not merely a low-libido thing. Actually, I have a pretty high libido. Although, it IS cyclical, not an every-day-of-the-month-no-matter-what kind of thing.

 

And I have told him, and TOLD him, AND TOLD HIM that he should be free to find a woman who is EVERYTHING to him that I am not. I don't want to keep him here, in any sort of "prison."

 

And that is when he cries. And tells me that I am the best thing to happen to him, and he doesn't want that for our children (because he grew up in a broken home). And then I don't fight it anymore because he IS my best friend. I LOVE him as my friend. No one knows me better, good, bad and ugly. So I don't want to hurt him.

 

But the passion is not there for me right now.

And hasn't been for a LONG TIME. Not just months to a few years...a LONG TIME.

 

And, again, that makes me feel so sad. Hopeless. At fault. Like I'm not doing enough. But I don't know what to do anymore.

 

To those (ladies, I think, mostly) that said I should leave: Thank you for your opinions, too. I appreciate your words of advice, like you will probably never know. I'm not trying to make excuses, although that is really what this amounts too, but it's just been HARD for me to take that leap. For many reasons.

 

1) We have 4 kids. They are young. Oldest is in middle school. Youngest 2 not in school yet. It absolutely BREAKS MY HEART to think of them growing up without seeing both of their parents at every night as they go to sleep, or when they wake in the morning, or at birthday parties, or ball games, or parent-teacher conferences, etc. You get the idea, and we've all heard it before. But it does. It really does break my heart. It's not like we openly fight and make their lives horrible by being together. That would be different. (Maybe?) I have said before: I don't know if I could survive their pain. And I (think I) can survive mine...

 

2) All the social/religious implications. I live in a small community where this would be a MAJOR issue to deal with. I know it's ridiculous, but I'm being honest about it. My own family would practically disown me, I'm sure. It would obviously be my fault, they love my H (everyone does!) and they would NEVER understand this being a reason for D'ing someone. In my world, we (are supposed to) stay till the end. That is the standard.

 

3) Truthfully, I don't know if I would ever find a FRIEND like him again. And, while I know I have the strength of character to live out the rest of my life alone, if that is what is in the cards, it does make me sad if that is what happens. Let's face it. I would be a divorced mother of FOUR, with a (more than) full time job...how would there ever be time to find another relationship? I'm not exactly a "prize" package - I would have a LOT of baggage, and I know it. So, this prospect (of being alone) makes me sad. And I know that is selfish. FWIW, I do NOT let thoughts of this OM fool me into thinking that he and I would eventually get together. I do know better than that.

 

And there is more, but I will end on that note for tonight.

 

Direct: I think you might be right about the counseling. I need to more seriously investigate that. And he is a relative "stranger" in the house to ME. But he is there quite a bit, actually. It is just that when he is there, I prefer not to be (and I have plenty of work to do at the office...). So we are like ships passing in the night, often. We do try to have a dinner out together once every few months or so.

 

Sally,

 

I'm still trying to get over the "skin crawl" comment. Seriously, I'd rather hear that my spouse was cheating on me than to hear that come out of her mouth.

 

Still, I don't understand a couple of things. In one paragraph you say that he is your best friend and in another you say when he is home you would prefer not to be there. How can that person be your best friend?

 

I guess I'm lucky that my situation is not as bleak. While I do crave the passion and excitement, I do not resent or despise my wife. I see hope to be happy. While struggling through this dark period, I have had thoughts of divorce and what it would mean and have come up with the same list of reasons why it is out of the question. I can tell you feel the same. Like you, I'm trying to sort this out on my own, but I truly think you need some help sorting this out. Maybe I do as well. I really don't see how it can hurt anything. At least it may bring you to an ultimate conclusion.

[Kasan]

Sally,

 

I'm still trying to get over the "skin crawl" comment. Seriously, I'd rather hear that my spouse was cheating on me than to hear that come out of her mouth.

 

I also have a problem with this....if someone makes your skin crawl I don't see how you get past it best friend or not.

 

I also wonder about the best friends aspect of the relationship. I would suspect that as "best friends" you would enjoy being in each other's company.

 

I respect everyone who comes here trying to find answers. No matter what any of you say, there is still some feelings left or you wouldn't be struggling with the questions that you pose to the forum.

 

It takes courage to admit your wrong doings and to try to find resolution in a way that is the least hurtful to your partner.

[IamASelfishSOB]

I also have a problem with this....if someone makes your skin crawl I don't see how you get past it best friend or not.

 

I also wonder about the best friends aspect of the relationship. I would suspect that as "best friends" you would enjoy being in each other's company.

 

I respect everyone who comes here trying to find answers. No matter what any of you say, there is still some feelings left or you wouldn't be struggling with the questions that you pose to the forum.

 

It takes courage to admit your wrong doings and to try to find resolution in a way that is the least hurtful to your partner.

 

Sally,

 

I don't think you're queen bitch. Your feelings are your feelings. Please don't misunderstand my comments. I'm just letting you know how that would make me feel. I also appreciate your honesty. Sorry I don't have all the answers.

[directx]

I think the skin-crawl ordeal has to do with her perception of him or what is going on between them.

 

I think it is her projecting her feelings or discontent on him.

That is why I think they should do counseling. I really think it is a mental thing.

 

Others may argue and may be right, but I am speaking from my personal experience.

 

I'd like to see her take this slowly and REALLY think about what happens if she demands separation/divorce.

 

I think the counseling will give the marriage the best chance possible and at least she can have some comfort she had tried everything she could possible.

[Mustang Sally]

SSOB and Kasan -

It is confusing, isn't it?

Welcome to my pathology - er, world!

Maybe I am just suffering from too much entitlement on my part? I should probably just be grateful for what I have and not try to make it so complex, eh? I understand the sentiment.

 

I don't understand why the skin-crawling is going on, either. I am just simply relating what my feelings have been. At times, I love this guy like you wouldn't believe. We have a lot of history together. How could I not be friends with him? As I have told you - he is not a BAD GUY.

 

In my opinion, he is just a guy who didn't "man up" to the challenges and responsibilities of what M and being a parent really is. (And so what of it? There are many men AND women out there who miss the boat on those fronts for years...) And thus took me and our M for granted for many years - forgot to show up for the game, so to speak in a lot of ways - and I finally got tired of it. This only after several years of requesting we seek marriage counseling (I was trying to send up the distress signals) and telling him, when he would stop to engage in the conversation with me, that I thought we were headed for trouble. He did not get the seriousness of my message until I dropped the "Separate" Bomb. I guess he married the wrong kind of girl! Because I can't let that sort of thing go by and obviously am having a tough time with "forgive and forget" over it.

 

And, of course, I realize that you all are only hearing my side of the story. I am trying to be fair about my shortcomings in this deal, also, because I am VERY aware that there are many. I know I'm not perfect.

 

I wonder if it has just gotten to the point that I am now just bitter, and looking to punish him? Maybe that is the whole deal. Now he is trying, but I want to punish him for what I perceive to be years of him pretty much sh*tting on me in the M.

 

I don't know anymore.

 

Anyway, yes, there MUST be some feeling left, or I wouldn't be agonizing so damn much over all this. I would have left by now, I think. I did have a plan. A place to stay with the kids, etc. (even thought the logistics of a breakup are completely overwhelming at times to me).

 

I don't want to throw it away if it could be good again, because, yes, I do realize that good love is so hard to come by. Maybe this is my only chance at it? I don't want to squander that. But I also don't want to "settle." Call it selfish or whatever you want, I want to WANT that guy in bed next to me. I want to WANT to spend all my available time parenting with him. I want to have someone to sit on my porch with as we both grow older. Is that too much to ask? Have I become another victim of our entitlement-deluded society?

 

I guess ultimately, I must give it a chance. I must try harder to overcome my pettiness and unwillingness to forgive/forget. Otherwise, I will not be able to feel I gave it my all, and like Kasan (and others) have said, I am the kind of person who must know, in the end, no matter what, that I did all I could do.

[SoHotZanzibar]

I think Directx (as ignorant as he may be sometimes) actually has a point.

You mention you are 'passing' each other in the night.

 

Why?

 

Are you really a family if you don't do family things together often?

Would this not change your preception of your H?

Maybe subconsciously you need to see all of you together as a whole as one big family.

 

Maybe there is something in your occupation that needs to change?

 

You don't want to leave this relationship for another where the same situation is recreated again.

 

In short, I think you need to be together as a whole family.

 

Do you both juggle your occupation hours to watch the kids? Are they in daycare?

 

Maybe things will be easier once they are all in school for full days?

[Kasan]

SSOB and Kasan -

I guess ultimately, I must give it a chance. I must try harder to overcome my pettiness and unwillingness to forgive/forget. Otherwise, I will not be able to feel I gave it my all, and like Kasan (and others) have said, I am the kind of person who must know, in the end, no matter what, that I did all I could do.

 

So there it is!!! You have made the hard decision. Now, what is your plan for giving your decision all that you have?

 

Maybe you should start at the end and work towards the goal. An example your rocking chair moment. How do you get there? What steps do you need to take? What tools will you need? What support do you have? You get the drift.

 

But to even start, both of you need to start fresh. No dragging up the past, forgiving past transgressions. Learning to appreciate the little things that you do for each other daily, which are taken for granted. Just plain being grateful!

 

Sorry, I tend to think like the production manager that I used to be and I don't like to ever give up. My greatest flaw!

[Mustang Sally]

I think Directx (as ignorant as he may be sometimes) actually has a point.

You mention you are 'passing' each other in the night.

 

Why?

We have been passing each other in the night for most of the marriage. Yes, it is career-related.

But it seemed to work, meaning no one (I can say this for myself, with certainty. I think I can speak for him as well, in this instance) was holding it over anyone else's head. We were still a "team."

 

Somewhere along the way (maybe about 3-5 years into it? I can't put my finger on an exact date, but I think this approximation is probably pretty fair) he seemed to "check out." There were some job changes that happened regarding my job and we made the decisions together (at least, I thought we did) but apparently he didn't really end up supporting them, because they caused him resentment (we had to relocate because of my job) and shortly thereafter, he did the check-out thing. He immersed himself in his job to the point of not being there as a family if I was there. We became a tag-team, but not as much of a team as we had been previously. It really resorted to survival because it was very hard for all of us (kids included) to get through that time. He continued to sink further and further into work, and I felt it had become an excuse to not DEAL with us - his family - or the difficulties of keeping things going during all that.

 

I felt like someone had to keep it together for the kids, so I feel like I did just that. I tried to be "super mom/woman" and have "it all." I had a very stressful, competitive job that required all my time and more, but I gave only the bare minimum to get through that. I tried to give every other minute of my time and attention to the kids (they were in in-center daycare at the time) by being there for them as much as possible. When he was home, he made up with the kids for any missed time while he was working so much. "Us" as a couple took an admitted back seat. Again. I think we both felt like it was SURVIVAL. And I think the sheer work required to keep everything "going" scared him and he retreated to being the "bring home the bacon" guy. I understand this on many levels. I feel like I lost a lot of "myself" during those years. I was mom, wife (albeit not a very good one), and career-girl, and I did NONE of those things well, but hell - we made it out. Right? (I don't even want to begin to get in to the mommy-guilt! Believe me, I have enough for a continent of women....)

 

Of course, now, we are so used to being ships, that I wonder if I care anymore to try to fix it, although I know I am unhappy with the way it is.

 

Makes me muse...the piper always demands to be paid, no?

Are you really a family if you don't do family things together often?

Probably not.

Would this not change your preception of your H?

Maybe.

However, I must tell you, I am resentful to him that the "being a family" has always occured at the expense of MY career. He has never put his career second to mine. He has always made me sacrifice my profession to the convenience of his, to do the "family" stuff. So, that is another of my faults - being resentful to him over this fact.

Maybe subconsciously you need to see all of you together as a whole as one big family.

Yes. Probably subconsciously and NOT so subconsciously....

But I am being bitter and resentful, as stated above when it comes to jobs.

Maybe there is something in your occupation that needs to change?

I'm sure you are right. Again, I am mad that I would have to compromise my career again. Then I think: what the hell is wrong with you, woman? You should willingly throw your career in the trash if your FAMILY requires it! (I'm serious, not being sarcastic.) What kind of evil, self-centered person (and more importantly, WOMAN) am I to now be unwilling to make this sacrifice??? I mean, REALLY!

You don't want to leave this relationship for another where the same situation is recreated again.

No DOUBT. That is why I believe if I can't make this one work, I will remain single the rest of my (working) days.

In short, I think you need to be together as a whole family.

You are right.

Do you both juggle your occupation hours to watch the kids? Are they in daycare?

I do, to a degree.

We have a sitter who comes to our house to watch them. I work more "regular" hours (sort of).

This has been another bone-of-contention for me. I am always "on" as mom when I am home. Usually, he is not there and there is no daycare when I am there (couldn' take the guilt, even if it were possible). I am not griping about being on as mom - I love my kids and the time I spend with them. But it is certainly hard work to be a single parent all the time. It would be nice to have help....? He has daycare there most days he is home so he can do "his" things...hobbies, stuff around the house, etc.

 

I know. I'm being petty again.

Maybe things will be easier once they are all in school for full days?

I hope so...

[Mustang Sally]

So there it is!!! You have made the hard decision.

At least for the moment....

Can't believe how I have been waffling over this.

Now, what is your plan for giving your decision all that you have?

 

Maybe you should start at the end and work towards the goal. An example your rocking chair moment. How do you get there? What steps do you need to take? What tools will you need? What support do you have? You get the drift.

Another weakness of mine - I want to be self-sufficient in all aspects of my life. Don't like having to ask for help...hence my reluctance to get into IC. I want to be able to fix this all from purely within myself (and within him, too). It is hard for me even to post this dirty laundry on an internet message board...

But to even start, both of you need to start fresh. No dragging up the past, forgiving past transgressions. Learning to appreciate the little things that you do for each other daily, which are taken for granted. Just plain being grateful!

Well, despite what it may appear to be, it seems to be helping me to LET GO of some of the meanness I've been harboring by getting it out, in this thread, and this forum...

 

I've got to continue to work at this. I won't be perfect, I know. I will stumble and back-peddle. It will be hard going at times for me.

[Kasan]

the more I think that you are just plain tired. Juggling all this is just plain hard. I remember feeling completely wiped out when I was managing a business, family, and a marriage. My husband was barely home before eight every evening so I got the parenting duties. Weekends were his time to get his stuff done. What could I say, I wasn't about to split wood. Needless to say the resentment started to build. I am pretty sure that he though life just plain sucked also, I b*tched all the time, he learned to avoid me. A vicious cycle.....

 

I think I went through some kind of fog for a couple of years. Lucky for me, no one seemed to notice.

 

If you are this tired and stressed how are you giving the best of yourself to the kids and your husband?

 

I know that the kids are the most important facet of your marriage now because they are young, but it is a mistake to neglect your marriage for them.

 

It is totally okay to have the sitter in and to do something for yourself. It will make you a much happier person and help you gain some new perspective. The kids will be alright! They will be just fine. You are not being selfish.

 

Better yet while the sitter is there grab your husband for a quick lunch, find a way to reconnect.

 

I can really empathize with you, juggling and wearing lots of hats is hard and it wears you down. Stress also has a cumulative effect....what was a molehill becomes a mountain.

 

Just don't forget, we all go through something like this and we muddle through the best that we can.

[ookla_2]

Ladies, let me applaud you for keeping the sex alive in your marriages despite a lower libido than your man. Ideally, every couple would have evenly matched sex drive. But hey selfless love works both ways: my wife has sex (and seems to enjoy it) when she is not especially horny, and I go along on many things (shopping trips, vacations w extended family) which are not my greatest enjoyment.

 

Thanks, Tommy!

I don't know if it's really my libido, or my pent-up resentments...there were YEARS when he treated me HORRIBLY, and would expect sex from me. I learned that shutting up and doing it was quicker/less painful than arguing forever about why I didn't want to do it. I know, it's stupid, but I was young and just wanted someone - anyone to be with. Truthfully, I have had rewarding sex lives in the past (but, like I said, I was young), but never really enjoyed it with my now-H, even when dating.

 

*Sigh*

 

I know - huge red flag. What the H*LL was I thinking back then? Oh yeah, I wasn't!!!

 

He has grown up. He has changed. Apparently my resentments have not gone away though.

[Kasan]

Well, I got interrupted and tried to go back and edit my spelling--no luck!

 

as she stomps on the hat she was wearing!

[directx]

We have been passing each other in the night for most of the marriage. Yes, it is career-related.

But it seemed to work, meaning no one (I can say this for myself, with certainty. I think I can speak for him as well, in this instance) was holding it over anyone else's head. We were still a "team."

 

 

 

Of course, now, we are so used to being ships, that I wonder if I care anymore to try to fix it, although I know I am unhappy with the way it is.

 

Makes me muse...the piper always demands to be paid, no?

 

Probably not.

 

Yes. Probably subconsciously and NOT so subconsciously....

But I am being bitter and resentful, as stated above when it comes to jobs.

 

I'm sure you are right. Again, I am mad that I would have to compromise my career again. Then I think: what the hell is wrong with you, woman? You should willingly throw your career in the trash if your FAMILY requires it! (I'm serious, not being sarcastic.) What kind of evil, self-centered person (and more importantly, WOMAN) am I to now be unwilling to make this sacrifice??? I mean, REALLY!

 

No DOUBT. That is why I believe if I can't make this one work, I will remain single the rest of my (working) days.

 

You are right.

 

He has daycare there most days he is home so he can do "his" things...hobbies, stuff around the house, etc.

 

I know. I'm being petty again.

 

I hope so...

 

I think SoNotHotZanzibar has a point as well. If you look at your post, it mentions career and work and job and sacrafice, but hardly any family is mentioned.

 

I don't think its surprising that you both are 'out of touch', and I think that is all it is. I don't think you are repulsed physically by him. I think that is your reaction because you are reminded of all the anquish you feel from him.

 

I think you HAVE to make family time. And not family time with extended family. Just ALL of you: You, your H, and JUST the kids.

 

Let be as little as playing a game together. I would start off gradually and slowly increase it. And this is where your H has to cooperate.

 

You HAVE to do something about the extended hours you both work and have some mutal time TOGETHER.

I bet you feel you don't even know each other anymore.

 

The way you describe work as it is your entire LIFE. Maybe I am in the minority, but work should just be a PART of your life. Your family should be your life. Work will always be there. Your family wont be.

 

I am getting the impression 'work' is the priority for everything.

[IamASelfishSOB]

Sally,

 

Truly, I know that I may not be the best one to give advice, but after several years of bottling it up, my wife exploded over many of these same issues a few years ago. I went through a massive behavior modification program to save our marriage at that time. Communication was our issue. I'm not saying that's your issue, but it seems like the root of many of your problems is his lack of "manning up" and taking on his share of the responsibility. Has he not done it after you asked him to? It seems like if he is the man you are describing, he would. If that is truly the crux of the problem, it seems like an easy fix. It's really just a matter of rearranging priorities. If he is unwilling to do this, why?

 

As a sideber, since my wife sensed my unhappiness, she has started to slip back into taking on more responsibility and doing things soley to make me happier (I know it's really messed up). She is starting to feed the issues that add to her own resentment to try to save our marriage. I have had to stress to her that this issue is not the basis of my unhappiness (it really isn't) and to please not continue down that path. I know, now at least, that these responsibities are mine regardless.

 

All of these things are also making me feel even guiltier for what I did. The more I type, the more I realize that we probably prime candidates for counselling....S&*T!

[Mustang Sally]

*Sigh*

He has grown up. He has changed. Apparently my resentments have not gone away though.

I feel the same, Ookla.

[Mustang Sally]

the more I think that you are just plain tired.

I think there is validity to this.

 

But why the hell can't I snap out of it and be grateful for the improvements that he has made since March???

 

He is doing more and changing his ways.

 

And why is it that everyone else (as you so correctly suggest) goes through this stuff and can muddle through, but I am causing myself so much cognitive dissonance??? It's not like my life is any busier or stressful than most of middle-class Western society....

 

I've got to GET OVER MYSELF, already.

I know that the kids are the most important facet of your marriage now because they are young, but it is a mistake to neglect your marriage for them.

I know this to be true.

And I am starting to get some desire to fix this M back. I think that is a very positive step!

It is totally okay to have the sitter in and to do something for yourself. It will make you a much happier person and help you gain some new perspective. The kids will be alright! They will be just fine. You are not being selfish.

Of course, you are right.

But it is hard for me to admit it. I have a lot of personal conflict about my job, my kids, how much I work. I freely admit this.

Better yet while the sitter is there grab your husband for a quick lunch, find a way to reconnect.

We have been doing this more the last month. I think it will help, with time. I find myself sharing more, just about silly stuff - my work day, etc. - with him than I have in YEARS.

[Lishy]

Seriously, if he makes you cringe when he comes near you and you are so unhappy, then please ask yourelf why you remain there?

 

You domnt love this man that is why no matter how much he changes you still dont want him!

 

Set him free to find love!

[Mustang Sally]

I don't think its surprising that you both are 'out of touch', and I think that is all it is. I don't think you are repulsed physically by him. I think that is your reaction because you are reminded of all the anquish you feel from him.

I hope that is all it is.

I think you HAVE to make family time. And not family time with extended family. Just ALL of you: You, your H, and JUST the kids.

I will try to do this.

You HAVE to do something about the extended hours you both work and have some mutal time TOGETHER.

This is easier said than done, my friend.

The way you describe work as it is your entire LIFE. Maybe I am in the minority, but work should just be a PART of your life. Your family should be your life. Work will always be there. Your family wont be.

 

I am getting the impression 'work' is the priority for everything.

Touche', babe.

I think you are hitting me below the belt with this one.

And I think you know why....

[Mustang Sally]

Communication was our issue. I'm not saying that's your issue, but it seems like the root of many of your problems is his lack of "manning up" and taking on his share of the responsibility. Has he not done it after you asked him to? It seems like if he is the man you are describing, he would.

He didn't, after a few years of me begging and pleading for him to "come back" to the M, until I told him I wanted to separate. Now, since March, he has been doing much better. Truly. He is really making a spectacular effort. Now the problem seems to be soley me.

 

As I have stated before, in the past (a few years ago) this change in behavior would have been my DREAM. I would have been a happy woman to see what I have seen him become during the last 6 months.

 

Lately, I have felt that I might just be done with the whole thing, and upset that I couldn't just be happy that he is doing what he is now. Couldn't seem to FORGIVE him. Worried that the other shoe will drop (and he/we will regress again) in a few to ten years....

 

It's really just a matter of rearranging priorities. If he is unwilling to do this, why?

No. I have to be fair. He is trying. I am just stuggling to care/let him/give him the benefit of the doubt. Why? I don't know. That is what I have been asking you all and myself. Is it just that I am done? That it is over? That I have allowed my heart to become too hardened? That I deserve him to leave me? Good gravy. I'm so messed up!

As a sideber, since my wife sensed my unhappiness, she has started to slip back into taking on more responsibility and doing things soley to make me happier (I know it's really messed up). She is starting to feed the issues that add to her own resentment to try to save our marriage. I have had to stress to her that this issue is not the basis of my unhappiness (it really isn't) and to please not continue down that path. I know, now at least, that these responsibities are mine regardless.

I'm sorry to hear that she is doing destructive behaviors again. It's both hard to be the one who is on the receiving end, and hard to be big enough to stop yourself from doing them when you are on the dealing-out end. I feel I can empathize with both angles.

All of these things are also making me feel even guiltier for what I did. The more I type, the more I realize that we probably prime candidates for counselling....S&*T!

No doubt!

Again I say, maybe we should try for the group rate?

[directx]

I hope that is all it is.

Quote:

I think you HAVE to make family time. And not family time with extended family. Just ALL of you: You, your H, and JUST the kids.

I will try to do this.

 

Well, this is where I don't think you get it to be blunt. And you may hate me for it but I don't care. I think you HAVE to do this. You can only have everything to gain with just Mom, Dad, and the kids. The fact that you have to TRY to do this is telling.

 

Quote:

You HAVE to do something about the extended hours you both work and have some mutal time TOGETHER.

This is easier said than done, my friend.

Then you just chose work over family.

Do you realize this is your choice?

Are you going to tell me no one in your profession can make it work and have a complete family?

 

Touche', babe.

I think you are hitting me below the belt with this one.

And I think you know why....

 

Quote:

The way you describe work as it is your entire LIFE. Maybe I am in the minority, but work should just be a PART of your life. Your family should be your life. Work will always be there. Your family wont be.

 

I am getting the impression 'work' is the priority for everything.

Touche', babe.

I think you are hitting me below the belt with this one.

And I think you know why....

 

No. I don't know why. Please spell it out. Accusations like that should not have the word 'think' in them.

 

Also, one thing I noticed is that everything in your problem requires you, your family, and your H to dance around your occupation.

Is there no way your occupation can accomodate your family needs? Can you cut it back at all?

Is there a supervisor you can talk to?

Maybe not, but it seems like its totally unthinkable that work cannot accomodate a family person like yourself just a little.

[Mustang Sally]

DirectX -

I am trying not to take you personally.

I appreciate your concern for me and my situation.

 

But you have an unfair advantage to other posters here.

 

And you are using it against me in public.

That's all I'm going to say.