How do you know when the fat lady is singing?

[Mustang Sally]

Sally, you could be writing about my M as well. All I can do is empathize, because I am having the same feelings. I'm trying to overcome them, but sometimes I wonder if too much damage has been done in the past. Mostly I think that we (my H and I both) ended up with the wrong person. I want happiness....I want passion....I want excitement. I want it for him, too, though, and he gives me every indication that he gets it with me (I have my doubts). The attraction, for me, is not there. I never want to have sex with him (but I do, 2-3 times a week, for his sake, how messed up is that?), and I feel like if we were to split up, I would miss him as far as his friendship goes, but I truly don't know if I would miss being his wife or him being my husband. I knew marriage was tough. I dug in my heels and stuck out some pretty harsh times (the recent tough times caused by the EA were my doing, but the hard times over the previous 15 years were based on actions on his part), and I have often wondered at what point I would be "justified" in ending the M. Like EY, I just haven't been able to do it. But thinking about living the rest of my life feeling this way is so unappealing to me.

 

Anyone who wants to post negatively in response to this, please know....we are committed, married women who are trying to find help. We have all stated that we WANT to feel this way about our H's, we are simply trying to find a way to do that. We are not she-devils who are all about hurting the ones who love us. If that was the case, I'm sure each of us would have left a long time ago. So please, tough-love is fine, but no haters...

Thanks for the understanding, ookla.

Like I said earlier, it helps just knowing that I am not the only (crazy? bitch?) woman to feel this way.

[EmotionallyYours]

destined to be single.

 

This could be me to a degree.... I may not ever be happy with anyone. In fact the single thing is VERY appealing to me. I like the idea of being able to interact with my children without anyone judging my parenting skills. To just do what is natural to me without worrying what anyone else will think. Not do the dishes or do the dishes... MY choice. Play video games for 8 hours straight or take the kids roller skating... MY choice. I want to be able to hire a cleaning person because there is no neurotic man who doesn't want someone in his home looking at his things?

 

In my perfect world, we have two homes close to each other and take turns. Really, we do that now. We are tag-team parents, but under the same roof. However, if we formalized it... and split... then I could do things I enjoy on nights that I didn't have the kids without ever having to explain myself or wonder if it is inappropriate or "appears" inappropriate. I want to do what I WANT. If I feel "passion" for a man... I can go for it. I can also drop him when I don't feel it anymore... move on.

 

If I am selfish and don't want to accommodate others... maybe a single life is just what I need. Maybe a greater degree of freedom is more important to me than a long-term permanent relationship? Maybe it is not the OM in our lives... maybe it is what they represent... freedom to do or pursue what you want, when you want it.

 

I want the best of both worlds I guess. Maybe I'm not the "marrying" type... but did it anyway to get the kids?

[Mustang Sally]

What you expected in your first five years of marriage is certainly different in year ten. This is the perfect time for re-negotiation.

Good idea.

We actually have done this from time to time. H is a big "goal setter." He likes to make lists of things he wants to achieve in a certain time frame and then revisit it often for progress check-ups. I guess I am more "free-form" in my approach to something as dynamic as a relationship between two people. But I can appreciate the merit in this, so I will approach him with this idea.

There is also pressure on women to have it all....and we as women know just how hard it is to have it all.

Boy, ain't that the truth! And a topic for a whole other thread...

In my work, I get to "mentor" young women in my profession. I used to tell them that "the world was their oyster, and to just go for what they want..." blah blah blah. Now, I tell them "something has to give. You can't have it all. So make intelligent choices based on what you know today, and be prepared to revise it tomorrow."

I'm so jaded!

My yardstick for leaving my husband would be when the bad times out weighed the good. I know, just too simplistic.

I get what you are saying.

I guess I feel like with all this history, and kids, and LIFE with this person, it is no easy thing to just weigh the GOOD times against the BAD. (I tend to complexify everything! )

[Mustang Sally]

MS- I have been just where you are- 13 years and all.

 

Do not cross the line like I did, you will really regret it and have amazing guilt (although not at first).

 

If you guys have tried counseling and have explored all other avenues, why not just leave???

Mz Pixie -

I have read your story. Thank you for sharing it.

And thank you for weighing in here, your advice is well taken.

I do not think (today!) that I will cross the line, but at least I do realize it is a real threat, now. I didn't always get that before...

[Mustang Sally]

I would never accept being someone's second best nor would I want my husband to accept being my second best.

 

I would never stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids. You all loved your spouses dearly at one time....don't you owe it to them to let them go if you don't love them anymore? If there is nothing left?

 

To me this is about integrity and honesty--if it is simply this much work to stay married and you are unhappy then what can we possible tell you that you haven't told yourself? How can we help you find your way back to your marriage?

 

To become a martyr to your marriage is simply not fair to everyone involved. Everyone involved deserves better.

Kasan!

 

You have voiced, above, yet another side to this whole deal that I have been through time and again!

 

I have even told H these very things. That he deserves someone who can give it all to him - the happiness and reciprocity that he deserves. (I figure if we get D'd, I will likely be single for a LOOONG time - maybe forever? - for numerous reasons....)

[EmotionallyYours]

... and I entered into this M knowing that it wouldn't all be roses and chocolates. (I wouldn't want that anyway...yeeech! Hate that contrived mushy stuff!)

....

For what? For the lost opportunity? For the wretch I felt I had (have) become? For my H and my M? I don't know.

 

My husband is all about the contrive mushy stuff... lol. It is just not my style. I finally had to tell him to stop buying me heart jewelry. I pulled out over a dozen heart pendants out of my jewelry box and told him he was never to buy me anything heart shaped ever again...lol. Actually, now it's a running joke when he goes shopping for a gift for me. He just doesn't believe that the industrial steamer is what I REALLY want.

 

Lost opportunities? Yeah... I did the same thing last time. I ran... bolted... I cried and mourned too. Sometimes I want to rewind and go through with it. Not because I wanted the man so much as I wanted the experience again.

[Cobra_X30]

You are right.

I am trying.

 

MS,

 

It's the only shot your M has. If your just waiting for the 1 year promised time limit to expire... your wasting your own time.

 

You realize that the mountain of resentment your sitting on is the primary reason you find him nauseating! That fact alone tells me that your emotionally withdrawn, but you already know all this.

 

I dont know how to forgive like that. I'm sorry.

[Trialbyfire]

You are right, TBF.

I need to try harder.

It's only fair.

I've got to find a way to get over this "stinkin thinkin" that I have....

Just for another six months. Who knows what might be possible. You loved this man once, maybe you can do it again.

 

As for "stinkin thinkin", look at how you were able to resist temptation. Not everyone will put the effort into not using an affair bandaid to assuage need. Stay strong with this. Your family loves and needs you too and from the looks of it, you love your family enough to not want to scar them by getting involved with a third party.

[Mustang Sally]

My husband is all about the contrive mushy stuff... lol. It is just not my style. I finally had to tell him to stop buying me heart jewelry. I pulled out over a dozen heart pendants out of my jewelry box and told him he was never to buy me anything heart shaped ever again...lol. Actually, now it's a running joke when he goes shopping for a gift for me. He just doesn't believe that the industrial steamer is what I REALLY want.

 

Lost opportunities? Yeah... I did the same thing last time. I ran... bolted... I cried and mourned too. Sometimes I want to rewind and go through with it. Not because I wanted the man so much as I wanted the experience again.

EY -

I know what you are saying.

The only heart-shaped stuff I have is from my kids, and of course I love it because it is from them! H learned that one a while ago, thankfully.

 

Maybe you are right? You would be better being single? I have thought about that too. It seems so liberating after years of the wife and mom roles. But I remember it has it's downside too. Loneliness. Apathy, in a different way. Of course, now that I am older, I think I would handle it better than I would have in my twenty-somethings.

 

When I think of being not married to my H anymore, I force myself to think of it in terms of my being ALONE. Meaning, not striking up some fairytale, happily-ever-after romance with OM or any other man. But being SOLITARY. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It depends on the day, know what I mean?

[EmotionallyYours]

EY -

 

Maybe you are right? You would be better being single? I have thought about that too. It seems so liberating after years of the wife and mom roles. But I remember it has it's downside too. Loneliness. Apathy, in a different way. Of course, now that I am older, I think I would handle it better than I would have in my twenty-somethings.

/quote]

 

I have NEVER been alone MS. Anyway... I have my kids... not ALONE like it would have been back then.

 

I have been in the middle of chaos since I was a toddler. I went from home packing every moment w/ activities ... to dorm in college, multiple part-time jobs, demanding major ... to apartment with H... to throwing myself into high stress jobs... I always had to have a man in my life and complete chaos. From age 14 to now... I either had a BF or was married all but maybe a month.

 

Maybe this is why I feel I don't know the "real" me? Tell me more about being alone... What is it really like? I feel alone... but in the middle of chaos...

[Mustang Sally]

MS,

 

It's the only shot your M has. If your just waiting for the 1 year promised time limit to expire... your wasting your own time.

Good gravy....you are right.

(I'm not being sarcastic, here, but having an epiphany.)

 

I wonder if this is why I am so reluctant to go to counselling? I mean, WTF is wrong with me that I don't go to counselling??? I freely admit I'm messed up in the head with this. I'm afraid that it will convince me to stick it out, and 10 yrs later I will find myself in the same boat, only 10 yrs older, and 10 more yrs of this one shot deal called life down the tubes...

 

I have got to get over this horrible case of the "What ifs?"

 

You realize that the mountain of resentment your sitting on is the primary reason you find him nauseating! That fact alone tells me that your emotionally withdrawn, but you already know all this.

Yes, I am now emotionally withdrawn.

That is a recent (relatively) change for me.

I used to get upset. Cry. Beg. Plead. with him to help me "fix" it. But then I became withdrawn enough to ask for a separation. And I was serious. I had a plan (for living arrangements, custody, etc.). H knows that I pretty much mean what I say, and I think that is what finally electroconvulsed him into realizing that we were in "deep doo-doo," as they say.

I dont know how to forgive like that. I'm sorry.

I'm confused by this last statement. Can you clarify for me? Forgive like what?

[Mustang Sally]

TBF -

Thanks for that positive thought.

I beat myself up constantly about all this crap.

I appreciate you finding a positive thing that I did in this saga.

[Kasan]

]

 

I wonder if this is why I am so reluctant to go to counselling? I mean, WTF is wrong with me that I don't go to counselling??? [/quoteI

 

Going to counseling and laying yourself bare is hard and scary work. Getting to the bottom of both yours and your husband's issues is a daunting task. It will take tremendous courage. I do see the pain that you are in so what could it hurt?

 

I really believe that in your heart of hearts you know what you want to do...and I say this in a kind way. Time to listen to your inner voice. I can't convince you to go or stay, I don't know your situation at all. None of us do.

 

Maybe it's time to deal with all of this now so that 10 years from now you can look back and say, I made the best choice for everyone involved whether you stay married or not.

[Cobra_X30]

Yes, I am now emotionally withdrawn.

That is a recent (relatively) change for me.

I used to get upset. Cry. Beg. Plead. with him to help me "fix" it. But then I became withdrawn enough to ask for a separation. And I was serious. I had a plan (for living arrangements, custody, etc.). H knows that I pretty much mean what I say, and I think that is what finally electroconvulsed him into realizing that we were in "deep doo-doo," as they say.

 

I'm confused by this last statement. Can you clarify for me? Forgive like what?

 

I would be willing to bet that you have been pulling back emotionally for a long time prior to reaching the point of actual apathy. If your like most women you withdrew a little every time your husband hurt you. You say that you feel bad for not wanting him because he is such a good guy.

 

But when you list off the things that are good about him... it was things like, he is good to his kids, he doesnt hit me, he works hard... ect. What does he want a cookie? Thats what your supposed to do! What does he do above and beyond?

 

Its great that you were able to snap him awake... I'm sorry it required you taking him to the edge. You wonder if you can you trust him to not fall back into that lazy complacency and start taking you for granted again. Isnt that up to him to prove? Isnt that what this time frame is really about?

 

Hmmm... Ok that's more than I intended to say.

 

What I was saying in that last statement, was that I dont know how to forgive someone for causing me pain in a relationship. It's like knowing the disease but not the cure! I hope to get some advice from you on how to do that!

[EmotionallyYours]

]

 

Going to counseling and laying yourself bare is hard and scary work. Getting to the bottom of both yours and your husband's issues is a daunting task. It will take tremendous courage. I do see the pain that you are in so what could it hurt?

At least H knows that all this stuff is pretty serious already. To me... that is one of the hardest parts and you got through that. I am afraid of counsellings because I will have to tell H and get into conversations about it. I really WANT to go... just w/o anyone knowing.

[Trialbyfire]

You're welcome MS. I can respect someone who's not in denial and has the strength of character to resist temptation. No doubt each person falls down sometimes, but some things you can't fall down on, if it impacts heavily on your loved ones. Stay strong MS.

[Mustang Sally]

Just for another six months. Who knows what might be possible. You loved this man once, maybe you can do it again.

This reminds me of something EY touched on in SSOB's thread...

 

Yeah, I "loved" him once...

But DID I? Really?

Geez. We were "older" when we got married, mid twenties, in professional school, relatively mature in our decision-making - or so we thought?

 

EY said something to the effect of how do you really know what those vows mean (sickness/health, richer/poorer, etc...) when you haven't enough life experience to really make that kind of commitment? Not that it is anyone's fault...that is the nature of the usual time course: childhood, adolescence, dating/young adulthood, marriage, children, etc.

 

But really, can you even understand what LOVE means at that point in your life (when you are usually heavy in lust-fog, and even if you've been dating awhile, it's still relatively new...)?

 

I now often think it is a cruel hoax. Talk about (un)informed consent! Ha!

 

Yeah, I know about the few Ms where the couple is in puppy love for 75 yrs and blah blah....but I think that is clearly the exception and not the rule.

[Kasan]

at least H knows that all this stuff is pretty serious already. To me... that is one of the hardest parts and you got through that. I am afraid of counsellings because I will have to tell H and get into conversations about it. I really WANT to go... just w/o anyone knowing.

 

But how can you make one of the most important decisions of your life without exploring every avenue that is available to you? Contemplating ending a marriage is serious stuff...and if you end your marriage how do you not repeat your same mistakes?

 

If this were me, I wouldn't leave a single stone unturned to make sure that whatever decision I made, I wouldn't regret it ten years down the road.

[Mustang Sally]

Going to counseling and laying yourself bare is hard and scary work. Getting to the bottom of both yours and your husband's issues is a daunting task.

Jeebuz. You are right on with that.

I f*cking scared as h*ll.

No kidding.

(NOW who's being the child?)

 

I tried to get him to go for MC for a couple of years (? I think? it was awhile, but don't remember how long exactly) before I dropped the "Let's separate" bomb. A part of me feels like I drew a line in the sand with that one, and don't want to go back on it. Again. Stupid and childish, I know.

 

But talking (typing) about all this is making me soften to the idea a bit, so I'll keep thinking on it.

It will take tremendous courage. I do see the pain that you are in so what could it hurt?

Good point.

I really believe that in your heart of hearts you know what you want to do...and I say this in a kind way. Time to listen to your inner voice.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Sincerely. I just wish I felt like I knew - even deep down...

(BTW, the weather is nice, here on Denial Planet....)

Maybe it's time to deal with all of this now so that 10 years from now you can look back and say, I made the best choice for everyone involved whether you stay married or not.

Yep.

Need to put on my Big-Girl panties and get on with it...

<sigh>

[Trialbyfire]

This reminds me of something EY touched on in SSOB's thread...

 

Yeah, I "loved" him once...

But DID I? Really?

Geez. We were "older" when we got married, mid twenties, in professional school, relatively mature in our decision-making - or so we thought?

 

EY said something to the effect of how do you really know what those vows mean (sickness/health, richer/poorer, etc...) when you haven't enough life experience to really make that kind of commitment? Not that it is anyone's fault...that is the nature of the usual time course: childhood, adolescence, dating/young adulthood, marriage, children, etc.

 

But really, can you even understand what LOVE means at that point in your life (when you are usually heavy in lust-fog, and even if you've been dating awhile, it's still relatively new...)?

 

I now often think it is a cruel hoax. Talk about (un)informed consent! Ha!

 

Yeah, I know about the few Ms where the couple is in puppy love for 75 yrs and blah blah....but I think that is clearly the exception and not the rule.

Like anything, if a relationship isn't nurtured, it will wilt and die. The hormonal fog of the honeymoon period is a good leaping off point. No one falls in "real" love within the hormonal fog period.

 

After that period is over, it's where you learn who the other person honestly is. If you can continue to like, respect and trust him, the love comes and the relationship continues. Beyond that, if the warts exceed the good qualities and the other person is unwilling/unable to step up to the plate for their share of adult responsibilities, the like, respect and trust go down the toilet which eventually leads to any hope of love, getting flushed.

[EmotionallyYours]

I DO want to go... I've been trying to figure out how to do it without the sh*t hitting the fan with H. I want to sort out before his alarm bells start really going off. I can't hide it... he will DEFINITELY think I'm having an A.

 

The MC did NOT go well for us last time and I don't want a repeat.

[Mustang Sally]

Hmmm... Ok that's more than I intended to say.

 

What I was saying in that last statement, was that I dont know how to forgive someone for causing me pain in a relationship. It's like knowing the disease but not the cure! I hope to get some advice from you on how to do that!

Ok....

Hmm.

Have we met before in a past life?

Hi, Cobra I'm Sally....

 

And, obviously, I'm not too good at the forgiveness-thing either...otherwise I wouldn't be in this pickle, right?

[Kasan]

I DO want to go... I've been trying to figure out how to do it without the sh*t hitting the fan with H. I want to sort out before his alarm bells start really going off. I can't hide it... he will DEFINITELY think I'm having an A.

 

The MC did NOT go well for us last time and I don't want a repeat.

 

You read the piece that Smartgirl posted over on SSOB's thread about causing a nuclear explosion. I thought her piece was brilliant.

 

And I think if you are serious about finding out what you want, maybe you need to cause that nuclear explosion.

 

This isn't just about you, and your unhappiness, this concerns your family. I see you struggling trying to find the magic answer and I applaud you for it. But I think that finding your magic answer might hurt...is this what you're afraid of?

 

Be brave--if he won't go, you go, because I sense you are serious about finding a resolution to this.

 

Hugs to you!

[Mustang Sally]

After that period is over, it's where you learn who the other person honestly is. If you can continue to like, respect and trust him, the love comes and the relationship continues. Beyond that, if the warts exceed the good qualities and the other person is unwilling/unable to step up to the plate for their share of adult responsibilities, the like, respect and trust go down the toilet which eventually leads to any hope of love, getting flushed.

Yeah.

Crap.

I thought we had made it through that, at one point. I guess that is where I started taking him and our M for granted. I thought that we had arrived at the LOVE (meaning mature love - not lust) phase, oh, maybe 5 or so years into it...

 

But then this resentment stuff started building up.

 

Now that I think about it, it really all started after kid #1 was born. NOT that it is in any way, even remotely, her fault. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

 

But H and I did not transition well from married-couple-with-no-kids to parents. It was HARD for us. Long story, but we were BOTH too selfish, and struggled with the reality of SACRIFICE of one's self that having a kid requires. Then, we had different parenting styles (this despite talking about this quite a lot before kid was born...just goes to show that just because you talk the talk doesn't mean you will be able to walk the walk). I felt like the disciplinarian while he was the go-to guy for fun, games, and junk food. At times, I felt I was parenting TWO kids instead of one.

 

However, he certainly did his share of middle-of-the-night diaper duty, and rocking and walking, and feeding (after she weaned off the breast), so it's not like he was never there. He did a hell of a lot, compared to many men. And, truthfully, I'm thankful for that.

 

Anyway, as the number of kids went up, we settled into our roles...but I guess I didn't really settle. Because now I'm rather pissed at how it worked out, aren't I?

[Mustang Sally]

And I think if you are serious about finding out what you want, maybe you need to cause that nuclear explosion.

Yes, EY.

Cause the explosion.

It can't get resolved the way it is now, can it?

Like it was said, above, what have you got to lose? And potentially to gain? (A WAY OUT of the purgatory you are in....)