How do you know when the fat lady is singing?

[Trialbyfire]

I also encourage you to go to IC. I did it after D-day and found it so incredibly useful. My therapist was a good fit and since I was determined to get better, our first session was almost full on disgorgement and kept up like that until the end of the sessions. Don't be afraid of revealing yourself to a professional. You will know in your first session whether you feel a connection to him/her or not. If you don't, find another one.

[Trialbyfire]

Yeah.

Crap.

I thought we had made it through that, at one point. I guess that is where I started taking him and our M for granted. I thought that we had arrived at the LOVE (meaning mature love - not lust) phase, oh, maybe 5 or so years into it...

 

But then this resentment stuff started building up.

 

Now that I think about it, it really all started after kid #1 was born. NOT that it is in any way, even remotely, her fault. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

 

But H and I did not transition well from married-couple-with-no-kids to parents. It was HARD for us. Long story, but we were BOTH too selfish, and struggled with the reality of SACRIFICE of one's self that having a kid requires. Then, we had different parenting styles (this despite talking about this quite a lot before kid was born...just goes to show that just because you talk the talk doesn't mean you will be able to walk the walk). I felt like the disciplinarian while he was the go-to guy for fun, games, and junk food. At times, I felt I was parenting TWO kids instead of one.

 

However, he certainly did his share of middle-of-the-night diaper duty, and rocking and walking, and feeding (after she weaned off the breast), so it's not like he was never there. He did a hell of a lot, compared to many men. And, truthfully, I'm thankful for that.

 

Anyway, as the number of kids went up, we settled into our roles...but I guess I didn't really settle. Because now I'm rather pissed at how it worked out, aren't I?

Rock on MS!! You are digging deep.

 

Have you ever asked him why he didn't help you with the discipline?

[Kasan]

and truly letting go of past hurts MS. What would happen if you could truly let these things go and start fresh? Would your feelings for your husband change? Would you see him in a different way? Instead of feeling I need to be right change the message to I want to be happy.

 

What would happen? What do you suppose he is thinking? Would he be willing to do the same?

 

What could it hurt? You still have 6 months left right?

[Cobra_X30]

Ok....

Hmm.

Have we met before in a past life?

Hi, Cobra I'm Sally....

 

And, obviously, I'm not too good at the forgiveness-thing either...otherwise I wouldn't be in this pickle, right?

 

Naw... Im sure I'd remember you!

 

Well, you may not be great at it... but your M has lasted 6x longer than my best relationship! That is nothing to sneeze at!

[whichwayisup]

What you get out of therapy is what you put into it. Make lots of effort to DO and to CHANGE, then better things will happen. If one goes in and doesn't work hard, then the results will show that.

[Mustang Sally]

Have you ever asked him why he didn't help you with the discipline?

Of course!

This was the cause of many arguments up until 2 or 3 years ago.

He never really answered this question, either, come to think of it (Damn that guy! He never REALLY answers ANY of the HARD questions....)

 

He does better now. I don't know WTF woke him up on this front...maybe visited by 3 ghosts? (Ghost of teenager on drugs, Ghost of teenager pregnant with 3rd child, and Ghost of teenager turned twentysomething with no job or education living at home with angry parents! :lmao: )

 

I think probably, it had much to do with his dysfunctional family life growing up. His mom left his bio dad when he (my H) was just a toddler. She then had a string of ne'er do well men in her/their lives until H was in college. I come from the "normal" 2 parents married until death-do-they-part, church-going, small town community family life. Both my parents were disciplinarians, and my sis and I were very good kids. Seriously.

 

I've told him MANY times that it is amazing he is so well-adjusted, given the crap he dealt with as a kid...

[Trialbyfire]

Of course!

This was the cause of many arguments up until 2 or 3 years ago.

He never really answered this question, either, come to think of it (Damn that guy! He never REALLY answers ANY of the HARD questions....)

 

He does better now. I don't know WTF woke him up on this front...maybe visited by 3 ghosts? (Ghost of teenager on drugs, Ghost of teenager pregnant with 3rd child, and Ghost of teenager turned twentysomething with no job or education living at home with angry parents! :lmao: )

 

I think probably, it had much to do with his dysfunctional family life growing up. His mom left his bio dad when he (my H) was just a toddler. She then had a string of ne'er do well men in her/their lives until H was in college. I come from the "normal" 2 parents married until death-do-they-part, church-going, small town community family life. Both my parents were disciplinarians, and my sis and I were very good kids. Seriously.

 

I've told him MANY times that it is amazing he is so well-adjusted, given the crap he dealt with as a kid...

There you go. He can't be held accountable if he avoids a definitive response.

 

Ahahahaha...three ghosts...love it!

 

As an adult, we all have to come to terms with our pasts. Until someone takes charge of their life, nothing will change. You can only blame your parents for so long. Mine weren't perfect but what they did, I can only respect and admire. It's not easy raising four children who were very active and determined individuals, all going in different directions.

 

Your upbringing was very similar to mine, except for the small town portion. I do have to confess that I wasn't always a good kid all of the time, although my parents never let me get away with it for long or at all, if they knew.

[ookla_2]

I know everyone is in favor of marriage counseling. I'm not sure how I (we) would do in MC. When I was in IC, my counselor asked me why I didn't feel secure enough to be totally honest with my H about my feelings. She said that "at this point, we have established that he is not going to leave you, so you should feel secure". No, I still don't. Maybe it's BECAUSE I know he won't leave? Maybe it's because what I'm thinking and feeling would be so hurtful to him, yet he wouldn't leave, therefore our home life would be uncomfortable and unhappy? I know I sound like a martyr, but I look at it this way: at least right now one of us is happy (and I can put on a good show of it). Beats having everyone miserable, right?

 

He did come to counseling with me one time, and I clammed up. I literally could not bring myself to answer the questions my counselor posed or tell H any of the things she wanted me to tell him. It felt too much like an attack on him, and I was not willing to do that.

 

When we went through our hard times, and I asked him to leave, at one point I told him that I didn't love him anymore. I stay because I can't bear to hurt him like that again. I just can't do it. So, I'm a wimp or a doormat, or whatever you want to call me, but I am NOT a WAW. I'm still here. I'm still trying to find a way to be fully engaged in my M. I have to, because I owe it to too many people. I'm sure that it's the best thing for me, I just have to realize that.

 

Sorry Sally - don't mean to hijack. I've been doing that lately. But again, know that you are not alone, you are not evil...you are having a very human struggle that apparently many people have.

[Kasan]

but I do know what you are doing is not working for you right? What is it that you want to do? What is your plan if you leave or stay?

 

Someone needs to step up to resolve this situation one way or another. Your husband is okay with the ways things are. You aren't!

 

Maybe the question should be is what do you see for yourself 5 years down the road? Then maybe the next question should be is how do you get there?

 

By the way, you aren't a wimp, some people just don't like confrontation. Maybe if you tried MC once again and laid it all out like you have here he would finally understand. Maybe neutral ground would be a way to start new.

 

You say that you are here and want to find a way to stay. Then fight for this marriage. Whatever it takes! Leave no stone unturned....and if after all this you still don't feel it then give yourself permission to move on without any regrets, because you know in your heart that you have done everything you could to save your marriage....no guilt trips.

[EmotionallyYours]

I check checked out our benefits site at work. They will allow 3 free visits per "issue" to a therapist w/o any paper trail or ANYTHING. If you do not "connect" they allow you to try another one.

 

This may be a good way for me to find one I like w/o going through a bunch of cash or H's insurance.

[Mustang Sally]

There you go. He can't be held accountable if he avoids a definitive response.

Yeah, maybe so.

I think you are right in that he really has been in denial about any responsibility he had in making this mess...

That is all much better since I dropped the S-bomb. He really has acknowledged his contribution(s) to this. And he's working on them.

 

I'm just trying to figure out if I still give a damn.

 

As an adult, we all have to come to terms with our pasts. Until someone takes charge of their life, nothing will change. You can only blame your parents for so long. Mine weren't perfect but what they did, I can only respect and admire. It's not easy raising four children who were very active and determined individuals, all going in different directions.

Again,

I want to emphasize that he is really TRYING. And I give much credit to him for doing that. If he weren't, this wouldn't even be an issue for me - I would have left with the kids by now.

 

Now I'M the problem.

Jeez. It just seems that it took him a LONG time to grow up.

[Mustang Sally]

Sorry Sally - don't mean to hijack.

No problem, hijack away.

I didn't intend for this to just be about my sh*t, anyway.

 

And I get what you mean about the MC.

I still have some bizarro fear of it, that I can't quite put my finger on...

But I think Kasan makes a very good point about it not working the way it's going, so try something new, and make sure you've done all you can before you call it quits.

[Cobra_X30]

I know everyone is in favor of marriage counseling. I'm not sure how I (we) would do in MC. When I was in IC, my counselor asked me why I didn't feel secure enough to be totally honest with my H about my feelings. She said that "at this point, we have established that he is not going to leave you, so you should feel secure". No, I still don't. Maybe it's BECAUSE I know he won't leave? Maybe it's because what I'm thinking and feeling would be so hurtful to him, yet he wouldn't leave, therefore our home life would be uncomfortable and unhappy? I know I sound like a martyr, but I look at it this way: at least right now one of us is happy (and I can put on a good show of it). Beats having everyone miserable, right?

 

Ook,

 

Two points to this:

1. You will never get what you want or desire in life if you dont ASK for it. Sometimes demand it!

2. You cant fake happiness. Suffering silently is how you got where your at today. Your discord will continue to resonate in your H and compound the problem for both of you... and eventually your children.

 

I am not advocating you go to him and say "I dont love you anymore"... that's counterproductive. I'm simply saying if you want him to do the dishes, politely ask him to do the dishes. If he loves you and is committed to change, they will get done!

 

You fear the future! "will I have to live like this forever?" ... ect. I'm not trying to rag on you... I want you to feel hope again, feel empowered!

 

The best way to predict the future is to create it!

[ookla_2]

Cobra, I get what you are saying. And truly, if it were something as easy as getting him to wash the dishes, I would definitely say something. He has turned a corner as far as being involved at home - with the kids, the upkeep, everything.

 

How I do tell him "make me feel passion for you" - when in reality, there's nothing HE can do? We do the "date night" thing. He compliments me all the time. He's very supportive. It's all me.

 

And I'm not re-writing history when I say it's never been a passion thing with us. We were young, lived our little "fish-bowl" life, and he was a big dog in our group. He liked me, and that was all it took. (see, I had just moved to the area, hadn't really made any friends yet, and was so happy to be included in a "group", that I went along for that reason) Eventually, I got pregnant, and that was that. No, we didn't marry until several years after our child was born, but we were together, and that's just the way it was. Our relationship, at least the first 10 yrs or so was full of drama. It was only when I quit expressing myself, quit standing up for myself and just accepted that our life was going to be that way, that we finally settled into some sort of contentment. Of course, that didn't work too well, as I ended up in an EA. (and before anyone rips me for that, yes, I know I had an active part in that...it didn't just "happen" to me...) And now, the last year has been me, attempting to repair the damage I did...attempting to prove that I still love him, and still want to be in this marriage. Why can I tell complete strangers that I'm not so sure about that, but I can't tell him????

[Cobra_X30]

Ah... Apologies, I didnt understand the context.

 

What is passion to your mind?

 

Can you have passion without emotional intimacy?

 

Oh and I notice that you are now established! Congrats!

[Mustang Sally]

How I do tell him "make me feel passion for you" - when in reality, there's nothing HE can do? We do the "date night" thing. He compliments me all the time. He's very supportive. It's all me.

I'm right there, with you, Ookla.

It just amazes me that there are folks out there who know so well what I am experiencing and talking about!

[tinke]

as i was reading your post, i can relate to what you had described. only, for me, i was able to identify the cause...it was unresolved issues! there was hurt, resentment, etc., that i had never really forgiven nor worked through. eventually those FEELINGS of disgust would resurface causing distance from me.

 

things would be fine for a while, i would look for signs that indeed, he was a decent man and i need to move on with him. but...again, out of the blue..here comes those feelings of disdain!

[VIP]

And I'm not re-writing history when I say it's never been a passion thing with us. We were young, lived our little "fish-bowl" life, and he was a big dog in our group. He liked me, and that was all it took. (see, I had just moved to the area, hadn't really made any friends yet, and was so happy to be included in a "group", that I went along for that reason) Eventually, I got pregnant, and that was that. No, we didn't marry until several years after our child was born, but we were together, and that's just the way it was. Our relationship, at least the first 10 yrs or so was full of drama. It was only when I quit expressing myself, quit standing up for myself and just accepted that our life was going to be that way, that we finally settled into some sort of contentment.

 

From what you wrote it looks like you were never in love with him, so how can you revive something you never experienced? It's not possible.

[ookla_2]

Because he has grown to love me (he didn't at first, which of course made me think that I did love him), and depends on me so much. I can't hurt him by leaving.

 

But really, can one person be truly happy in a marriage if the other is not?

[ookla_2]

Ah... Apologies, I didnt understand the context.

 

What is passion to your mind?

 

Can you have passion without emotional intimacy?

 

Oh and I notice that you are now established! Congrats!

 

Passion = I feel good when I am with someone. I feel good about them, more importantly, I feel good about me. AND - I am physically and mentally attracted to them.

 

I don't know - I don't think so.

 

Thanks! I have finally arrived!!!

[Cobra_X30]

Passion = I feel good when I am with someone. I feel good about them, more importantly, I feel good about me. AND - I am physically and mentally attracted to them.

 

I don't know - I don't think so.

 

Thanks! I have finally arrived!!!

 

Yes! Thats it exactly!

 

Do you know how to generate these factors in a relationship?

 

I'm going to be totally honest and say its not that hard to create passion, because its a series of words and action which generates a feeling. Since I control those words and actions I own the key to that feeling.

[Cobra_X30]

Here is a similar situation. She may need someone to connect with.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t129872/

 

We are all here to help each other right?

[VIP]

Because he has grown to love me (he didn't at first, which of course made me think that I did love him), and depends on me so much. I can't hurt him by leaving.

 

May be there is some kind of love in this relationship after all? Or may be being loved is important to you too.

 

But really, can one person be truly happy in a marriage if the other is not?

 

Truly happy, may be not. Somewhat happy - yes. It takes a lot of self-sacrifice to let your loved one go and be happy with someone else. People are usually more happy when they love, than when they are being loved.

[ookla_2]

May be there is some kind of love in this relationship after all? Or may be being loved is important to you too.

 

There is love, definitely. I just want to feel it MORE toward him.

 

Truly happy, may be not. Somewhat happy - yes. It takes a lot of self-sacrifice to let your loved one go and be happy with someone else. People are usually more happy when they love, than when they are being loved.

 

 

EXACTLY!!! I've heard that it's preferable to be in a relationship where someone loves you more than you love them. I've been in both now, and I have to disagree.

 

What's odd is that, until my EA came to light and we started to repair the damage - I had NO idea how much my H loved me. After 15 years, I had NO idea the lengths he would go to to hold on to our marriage. I know that I'm lucky to have that. I just don't feel worthy.

[ookla_2]

Yes! Thats it exactly!

 

Do you know how to generate these factors in a relationship?

 

I'm going to be totally honest and say its not that hard to create passion, because its a series of words and action which generates a feeling. Since I control those words and actions I own the key to that feeling.

Is it really easy? Am I making it too difficult?