How do you know when the fat lady is singing?

[Cobra_X30]

Is it really easy? Am I making it too difficult?

 

Yes! and it gets easier for me the more I do it! Everyone is a little different, so I need to be able to read and be adaptable... but its worked in every single relationship Ive ever had.

 

Ever hear them tell you that you cant make someone love you? Yeah... thats only half true!

 

Here is the catch! and this is what sucks in your situation. You can get your husband to be passionate about you... but he is the one that needs to get you passionate about him.

 

Do you see the problem there? The best you could do is inflame his passion and hope he responds in kind, thats no guarantee it will work! Plus he has to find a way to get through a 15 year wall of resentments, that he has built up in you.

 

I'm reasonably certain that is the situation your faced with

[Mustang Sally]

I had NO idea how much my H loved me. After 15 years, I had NO idea the lengths he would go to to hold on to our marriage. I know that I'm lucky to have that. I just don't feel worthy.

So, why is it that he would go to such great lengths?

 

Is it because he feels you are his soulmate?

 

Is it because he was raised that "Divorce is not an option"?

 

Is it because he has religious/social/economic reasons to stay married to you?

 

Is it because he is "NOT A QUITTER" or a failure and what bigger relfection on your personal ability to be a success than your marriage?

 

Is it because he fears losing daily contact with his children?

 

And on and on....

 

I ask this because, these are the EXACT questions I have had to ask regarding my H's, dare I say - DESPERATION - about holding on to our marriage.

 

I guess, with all the bad sh*t that has happened between us, I doubt it is the "soulmate" option. Because if you really felt that you LOVED someone that much, how could we have gotten so off track in the first place???

 

I worry that it is any one (or more) of the other options that is driving him to coerce me into staying....and he will revert back to his old ways down the road...and I will be older, and thus the inertia of leaving will be even stronger....comfortable in our dysfunction, if you will...

 

What do you think about your husband, Ookla?

[ookla_2]

So, why is it that he would go to such great lengths?

 

 

Is it because he is "NOT A QUITTER" or a failure and what bigger relfection on your personal ability to be a success than your marriage?

 

Is it because he fears losing daily contact with his children?

 

 

What do you think about your husband, Ookla?

 

 

It's the two I left listed above. Oh, I supposed there could be some "soulmate" option there, too, but he certainly never behaved that way before I asked him to leave. When he came back to talk to me, his first statement was "we have never been quitters".

 

No, we are not quitters, that is why we have hung in there this long. Honestly, I have had numerous times over the years that I wanted to split up....like I felt the marriage truly had no benefit for me. I'm not exaggerating, and really haven't gone into too much detail of how the first 15 years have been, but in truth, there was a whole LOT of bad...and I stayed because I am stubborn, and wanted to prove that I could "make" a marriage work. (Most of my side of the family is divorced...I had something to prove, I guess)

 

Sigh...I really think that I am going to live this life...forever. So I need to buck up and learn to enjoy it because it's the only one I get...

[ookla_2]

Yes! and it gets easier for me the more I do it! Everyone is a little different, so I need to be able to read and be adaptable... but its worked in every single relationship Ive ever had.

 

Ever hear them tell you that you cant make someone love you? Yeah... thats only half true!

 

Here is the catch! and this is what sucks in your situation. You can get your husband to be passionate about you... but he is the one that needs to get you passionate about him.

 

Do you see the problem there? The best you could do is inflame his passion and hope he responds in kind, thats no guarantee it will work! Plus he has to find a way to get through a 15 year wall of resentments, that he has built up in you.

 

I'm reasonably certain that is the situation your faced with

 

The problem I have with this, Cobra, is that he seems to already have quite a bit of passion for me....and I just don't want to have sex any more than I already "have" to (yes, it's become an obligation for me - a 2-3 times a week chore to check off my list). I know...some will say that I am a shrew and a horrible wife, but hey - I've never withheld sex, which is a huge complaint on these boards. Of course, sex for him makes him feel closer to me....for me, it has the complete opposite effect.

 

Wow - we are really screwed up, aren't we? And he doesn't even know it...

 

Sally - I am so sorry I seem to have taken over your thread. Let me know how you are doing with things and what, if anything, you are planning to do.

[Mustang Sally]

The problem I have with this, Cobra, is that he seems to already have quite a bit of passion for me....and I just don't want to have sex any more than I already "have" to (yes, it's become an obligation for me - a 2-3 times a week chore to check off my list). I know...some will say that I am a shrew and a horrible wife, but hey - I've never withheld sex, which is a huge complaint on these boards. Of course, sex for him makes him feel closer to me....for me, it has the complete opposite effect.

OMG!

I am with you there, sister.

Completely.

A CHORE.

MAKES MY SKIN CRAWL.

 

But I'm not withholding (although, I am honest and admit that I have done that before...secondary to what I thought at the time was justifiable self-preservation because of the skin-crawling, nausea, etc...) either anymore.

 

How could I?

My poor dear H DESERVES to have as much sex as he so desires! Right?

No matter whether it is good for me or not, it seems.

 

So I decided that maybe, if I threw myself into it, and became a much more sexual person than he ever has known me to be (not that it wasn't there, I just struggled to let it "out" with him...) eventually I would become sort of "desensitized," if you will, to the negative feelings that I get from it with him. (TALK ABOUT MESSED UP! )

 

Truthfully, it has worked, a bit. I have occasions where I can get a fair amount of enjoyment out of it (I'm not just talking about orgasms, but just JOY from sharing with him). But I am left, when all is said and done, wondering, "So THIS is IT???" THIS is what your marriage and marriage-bed is all about???

 

WTF!

 

And I feel BITTER about the fact that if this IS all that I'm going to get out of it, I wasn't better INFORMED about the kind of ever-after I was signing up for!

Sally - I am so sorry I seem to have taken over your thread. Let me know how you are doing with things and what, if anything, you are planning to do.

Again.

No worries.

I think I spewed a fair amount of venom, above, to let you know how I feel today....

 

Please, rest assured I am not going around, letting this venom that you see on this board and this thread overly influence all my interactions with humankind.

 

But it DOES feel good to get it OUT of my system every now and then.

[ookla_2]

 

Please, rest assured I am not going around, letting this venom that you see on this board and this thread overly influence all my interactions with humankind.

 

But it DOES feel good to get it OUT of my system every now and then.

 

I'm with you on that one!!! This is my refuge. As far as anyone knows, I am perfectly happy, living the dream. This is where I come to whine, and I appreciate everyone who has the patience to not only read but to try to help.

[IamASelfishSOB]

Sally,

 

I have to tell you. If I was your husband and you told me that having sex with me made your skin crawl, that would be it for me. I'd never ask again. I don't know about your husband, but sex for me is all about making my partner happy, which in turn, makes it wonderful for me. I may be a selfish SOB, but not in the bedroom. Maybe it might be different for your husband, but if you wanted to divorce me, all you would have to do is tell the truth. I'd be gone. In fact, if you were not truthful in the bedroom, it would almost be as hurtful as cheating, to me. That goes for ookla too. I couldn't have sex with someone that didn't want to have sex with me. I wouldn't have any desire.

[ookla_2]

SOB-

Thank you for your reply.

My H is aware that the sex is more for him than it is for me. He may not be thrilled about it, but it's fine with him. And I (most of the time) make it seem like I am into it.

I'm not about hurting him. I'm truly not.

[Kasan]

OMG!

I am with you there, sister.

Completely.

A CHORE.

MAKES MY SKIN CRAWL.

 

I am having one of my head spinning around on the ceiling fan moments! How would you feel if your husband felt this way about you?

 

It would devastate me!!! To have someone who loved me feel this way about me would cut to my very soul!

 

Yeah, I am sure that he doesn't know, but come on, men aren't always that dense. He knows that something is up.

 

I feel for your situation, and I mentioned yesterday that in your heart of hearts you know exactly what you want to do. If you go back and really read your posts you will see what I mean.

 

I get that you are unhappy, and are conflicted, and have alot of resentment towards him, but we all deserve to be loved and respected.

 

Marriage has its ups and downs which you know. Sometimes the downs last years (the truth) because life is not always fun. Love changes as you mature. Would I like to go back to the early days for a quick visit? Absolutely! I call it my "back when love was fun" phase.

 

Would I change what I have now for what I had back then? No way! I like to think that the life that I shared with him along the way defined who we are now.

 

You and your husband deserve to have this, all of you who post deserve to have this. Anything less is cheating yourself and your spouses!

 

It shouldn't be this hard!

[ookla_2]

....about a husband who KNOWS that his wife doesn't enjoy sex (and has had some childhood trauma which likely affects that), but still expects it 2-3 times a week???

 

I think it's a little messed up, but since I play along, I guess it's my fault...

[Kasan]

I'm curious what your thoughts are...

....about a husband who KNOWS that his wife doesn't enjoy sex (and has had some childhood trauma which likely affects that), but still expects it 2-3 times a week???

 

Issues from your childhood is another subject entirely.

 

It was my understanding from MS's post that you agreed with, your husband's touch repulsed you, because of your feelings or lack of them for him. If I am incorrect, I apologize.

 

I think it's a little messed up, but since I play along, I guess it's my fault...

 

Why does someone always have to be blamed or take the blame? I really believe that we do the best that we can.

 

I have to say your post has really thrown me for a loop. Ookla, find your voice, go to counseling and resolve these issues whether your husband likes it or not. It is horrible living with a childhood trauma that affects your life to this degree.

[ookla_2]

Okay, my husband's touch does not repulse me. I just do not enjoy having sex with him. But he enjoys it, so I do it for him. He is aware that I am, 9 times out of 10, only doing it because it's what he wants. And he seems to be fine with that - as long as I don't deny him.

 

Sorry if I sounded defensive...I truly was just wondering what your thoughts would be. I have always appreciated your responses, Kasan.

[IamASelfishSOB]

....about a husband who KNOWS that his wife doesn't enjoy sex (and has had some childhood trauma which likely affects that), but still expects it 2-3 times a week???

 

I think it's a little messed up, but since I play along, I guess it's my fault...

 

If I loved you, I would of course be understanding, but not if you were not making an effort to fix the problem. There is really no reason a person can't ultimately enjoy sex. If it didn't get fixed it would end up being a deal-breaker for me. I have to have reciprocity in bed (at least most of the time) or it wouldn't work. That's just me, though. I'm sure a lot of men think differently. Otherwise how would prostitutes stay in business.

[ookla_2]

SOB...I think that's the big problem. Of course he would rather me enjoy it, but I don't think he really cares all that much, as long as he is getting it. I know he would not encourage me to seek counseling, because he doesn't like counselors, thinks its a waste of money, and people should just "get off their azz and be happy". Plus, I'm sure he would be worried that a counselor would tell me to NOT have sex with him when I didn't feel like it, therefore interrupting HIS schedule...

[Kasan]

Sorry if I sounded defensive...I truly was just wondering what your thoughts would be. I have always appreciated your responses, Kasan.

I didn't think you sounded defensive at all ...actually thought that you were digging down deep...and guess what? You found your voice.

 

Okay enough hijacking!!!

[ookla_2]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

 

Sally, we miss you!!!!

 

It's Friday!!!!

 

 

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[IamASelfishSOB]

SOB...I think that's the big problem. Of course he would rather me enjoy it, but I don't think he really cares all that much, as long as he is getting it. I know he would not encourage me to seek counseling, because he doesn't like counselors, thinks its a waste of money, and people should just "get off their azz and be happy". Plus, I'm sure he would be worried that a counselor would tell me to NOT have sex with him when I didn't feel like it, therefore interrupting HIS schedule...

 

To each his own, I guess. It wouldn't work for me. In fact, I couldn't live that way. I don't like counselors either, but in this case it would be a must if it would help. In your husbands case, I guess it's not important to him. I'm probably not helping as I am not your husband, but you did ask for opinions.

[directx]

Sally,

I am surprised you haven't tried counseling yet, since you already openly expressed your discontent and issues with him.

I think you both may be ready for it.

 

And if he doesn't want to go, have you thought of just yourself going?

 

Also, how much time do you both spend together as a family?

Many times in your posts it seems he is distant or not part of the family often.

Do you do many family things together as a whole? I get the impression you almost see him as a stranger rather than a father as part of the family.

 

Do you go on dates with just you both often?

 

I just wonder if a family/time issue is a contributor to the situation.

[VegasFan]

Sally,

 

I have to tell you. If I was your husband and you told me that having sex with me made your skin crawl, that would be it for me. I'd never ask again. I don't know about your husband, but sex for me is all about making my partner happy, which in turn, makes it wonderful for me. I may be a selfish SOB, but not in the bedroom. Maybe it might be different for your husband, but if you wanted to divorce me, all you would have to do is tell the truth. I'd be gone. In fact, if you were not truthful in the bedroom, it would almost be as hurtful as cheating, to me. That goes for ookla too. I couldn't have sex with someone that didn't want to have sex with me. I wouldn't have any desire.

 

Yeah, I have to agree with SOB. If my wife told me that having sex with me made her skin crawl, I'd be gone in a second (and that's coming from a guy who is not interested in divorce at all.

[Cobra_X30]

The problem I have with this, Cobra, is that he seems to already have quite a bit of passion for me....and I just don't want to have sex any more than I already "have" to (yes, it's become an obligation for me - a 2-3 times a week chore to check off my list). I know...some will say that I am a shrew and a horrible wife, but hey - I've never withheld sex, which is a huge complaint on these boards. Of course, sex for him makes him feel closer to me....for me, it has the complete opposite effect.

 

Wow - we are really screwed up, aren't we? And he doesn't even know it...

 

 

I just want to point something out to you really quickly.

 

You seem to equate your husbands passion for you to his sex drive. Thats not it... thats not even close. Do you think when I walk into a relationship I am going to try and create passion through sex? Here let me bring back your quote on what builds passion.

 

Passion = I feel good when I am with someone. I feel good about them, more importantly, I feel good about me. AND - I am physically and mentally attracted to them.

 

Ok, does your husband make you feel good when you are with him? If not what actions do you feel would make feel relaxed and happy!

 

Do you see what I am driving at here? Its a combination of little words and actions. Do you think that because he wants you in the bedroom that he is passionate about you?

 

I say if he is passionate, he tells you exactly how much he needs you! He appreciates everything you do, and shows this with actions. Not just flowers and heart shaped trinkets, but in making sure you are happy and comfortable, assisting with the things that make you stressed. Understanding and sharing your hopes and dreams! Loving you fully accepting your flaws, and wanting to constantly learn more about you your thought, your beliefs, your opinions. Constantly showing you that he is thinking about you and that he holds you in high regard!

 

Hmm... I'd go on but it could fill the page and my grammer is starting to break down... LOL.

 

I hope you see what I am getting at here. Because You all seem to be beating yourselves up and wondering what your problems are, and I can pretty much tell you that if your Husbands took corrective actions... and I mean the right actions... you would not be feeling the way you do!

 

I'm not worried about threadjacking... because I think this applies in Sally's situation also.

[katiebour]

Sally, I've read through this whole thread, and the one thing that keeps popping into my mind is: Do the separation.

 

Yeah, he doesn't want you to do it. He wants to fix things the way they are. You don't know if you can fix it, and you wonder if you'd be happier alone.

 

Get an apartment and do it. That way at least you can find out. Don't give the H a choice here- it's your decision, not his. Try a separation for a few months. Try on the "being single" hat and see how it fits. It's not an irreversible situation if you decide that you do miss the H, and the distance might give you some space to work out your resentment and anger.

 

Tell him that you'd like to go on a weekly date with him- but keep separate housing and don't go home with him or let him go home with you. That way you can rediscover him as a person, instead of your housemate/lifemate.

 

If, in fact, the single life suits you, makes you happy, and the idea of someday beginning a new, better R after the end of the current one appeals to you, then you should go for it.

 

Life is too short to be so sad. If you died tomorrow, got hit by a car, and had to look back on it, would you be saying, "Boy, I'm glad I stuck it out and was miserable."

 

Not! You'd be floating up there in those clouds, going, "Dang, I never got to see the Great Wall of China or eat blinis or have a happy relationship."

 

Don't let the rest of your wonderful life pass by in your self-imposed cage.

[tinke]

the thing here is...it shouldn't be a unilateral decision, if you two are in a relationship.

do keep in mind...particularly if he is opposed to the trial separation, the outcome may surprisingly be... his distance. he may feel diffferently, also.

[tommyr]

Okay, my husband's touch does not repulse me. I just do not enjoy having sex with him. But he enjoys it, so I do it for him. He is aware that I am, 9 times out of 10, only doing it because it's what he wants. And he seems to be fine with that - as long as I don't deny him.

 

Maybe I appear biased (a male with larger sex drive than my wife) but sex 2X or 3X per week sounds totally normal... right in line with many surveys on the topic (google "sex times per week"). A decrease of "9 times out of 10" would put you at about 10X per year.... described by many as a sexless marriage (google for "sexless marriage times per year").

 

Ladies, let me applaud you for keeping the sex alive in your marriages despite a lower libido than your man. Ideally, every couple would have evenly matched sex drive. But hey selfless love works both ways: my wife has sex (and seems to enjoy it) when she is not especially horny, and I go along on many things (shopping trips, vacations w extended family) which are not my greatest enjoyment.

[Lishy]

MS I will say one thing to you, you have one life and I think you should leave!

 

Not just for your benefit but for his too - You both seem like lovely people so I think you should both be free to find happiness, true happiness! Even your kids will appreciate it one day! we have one life, it is not a rehearsal so get out there and be happy!

 

Just because someone does not abuse you it doesn't mean you should stay with them!

 

You stay with him out of pity, that is not fair on him or you or your kids!

 

Get out

 

Be happy!

[Lizzie60]

WOW... this is what I felt with my first EX... nauseating whenever he touched me... sex with him was disgusting.. I felt like I was having sex with my brother... eewwwww...

 

He was also a good guy, he would have given me the moon... but I just didn't love him anymore..

 

I don,t want to discourage you... but I think that once it's gone, it's gone.

 

I went to a 'closed retreat' in Montreal for a week before I decided to leave him .. I didn't know what to do.. I was sooo desperate... and unhappy. My daughter was gone to university but my son was only 12... it was sooo freaken hard..

 

I know sooo well how you feel... but unfortunately I have no advice for you.. only YOU know if you can go on like that forever...

 

The only thing I can say is that I never regretted my decision to leave him... the only thing I found extremely hard was the pain I caused my son.

 

Good luck...