Change in Beliefs....but not necessarily for the better...

[uniqueone]

This is probably a mistake posting a new thread but I figured I'd give it one last try and if this turns out the same as the last one, it'll be my last......

 

I grew up in a fairly religious community and regularly attended church (it was required). Because I went through a lot of low points growing up, my spiritual beliefs seemed to be an escape for me....a place where I could turn to.

 

Because things had gotten so bad for me, I always felt like I could look forward to the next life...that that's where my life would actually begin....because I knew it certainly wasn't here.

 

When I became an adult, I no longer attended a church but still was religious. As time went on, I stopped identifying with the religious denomination in which I was raised and simply considered myself a "Christian". In more recent years, I would sometimes classify myself as "Spiritual" instead of "Christian".

 

I was really amazed at how much I've changed in my beliefs. In the last year or so, I wasnt even sure if I felt spiritual. I wasn't sure what I felt.

 

This guy that I met this year was atheist. That always seemed like such a bad category to be in to me. He taught me a lot about the reasoning behind it. It started to make sense. I learned about how the earth is dated billions of years and yet the bible only tells us we've been around for 5000 years and how that cannot be. I learned a lot about how scientific facts and the bible don't agree at all.

 

I learned about how, throughout time, people have used religion (or gods) to explain things that they didn't understand. If you look at tribal peoples and see what they attribute to "gods", those of us who are more civilized would look at them as if they are unenlightened because we know better. We know that the sun in the sky is not a god. They might not know that so they think it is but WE have proven (through science) that it's a star.

 

So, throughout history, humans have used gods to explain things that they didn't understand.

 

Another reasoning for religion is that it helps people cope with life's hardships. This doesn't mean it's true though. It means it's a tool that helps people through.

 

Anyway, a lot of what I discovered this summer made sense. The problem is.....I felt worse. I don't want this to be all that there is.

 

The guy who I mentioned who's the atheist....he's had a great life and is living just like he wants to.....so to him, he's not concerned if this is all there is.

 

But for me...or for people who have dealt with more hardships than pleasure in life.....it doesn't give anything to look forward to.

 

But at the same time, I can't delude myself and ignore what I've learned and go back to believing those things that contradict what we have scientific proof of.

 

In a way I feel like I've gained a lot of knowledge but in a way, I feel a lack of hope.

[Enema]

I suspect you will get a lot of replies trying to make you ignore the evidence and turn back to religion.

 

Your post doesn't have a question in it, and I have trouble identifying with the sense of hopelessness you express so I don't know that I can add much.

 

You're in the prime of your life, you don't have any silly religions to pander to and can focus on yourself and making your life great.

 

I would be excited!

[uniqueone]

I suspect you will get a lot of replies trying to make you ignore the evidence and turn back to religion.

 

Your post doesn't have a question in it, and I have trouble identifying with the sense of hopelessness you express so I don't know that I can add much.

 

You're in the prime of your life, you don't have any silly religions to pander to and can focus on yourself and making your life great.

 

I would be excited!

 

I've made my life ok...but it's far from great.

[lonelybird]

HI, uniqueone

 

You didn't change your belief actually IMO, you didn't fully accept or recognize it yet in the first place. If you fully accept the gift of God, it is impossible that you can change your belief to others. Remember the Bible says "Lord will stay with us FOREVER"?

 

Yes, in life there are many trials, in the middle of trials we feel like God abandoned us, or feel like God isn't willing to help us even we fully acknowlege that God is able and powerful. But truth is God is faithful, words of God is powerful and supernature. many people don't believe Bible is words of God, that is sad and big loss for them because words of God is the way, is rock and protection and rejoice and peace.

 

we found ourselves constantly in the middle of strife with ourselves, it is our own battle of flesh and spirit. when we emerge in our flesh, we feel agony, sorrow, conflict, resentment and selfish...we feel like we cannot get out of it forever, in fact, it is only one step away to get out of this muddle, if only we ask God for guidance humbly, God's guidance and light never fail to come your way. and instantly you can feel peace and rejoice return to you again, you are in spirit again, you can see great hope again, depression and negativenness disappeared.

 

If we don't spend time with Lord personally, we are going to suffer. we have to talk to Lord, consult him, ask him for guidance. any small talk with Lord will set us in peace and rejoice mindset.

 

Words of God help us to win, it is supernature.

[VIP]

But at the same time, I can't delude myself and ignore what I've learned and go back to believing those things that contradict what we have scientific proof of.

 

Have you ever thought that science might not be advanced enough to deal with anything beyond matter? Science is busy studying the outside world. You need to try to discover for yourself who you are.

[disgracian]

So, throughout history, humans have used gods to explain things that they didn't understand.

True enough.

Another reasoning for religion is that it helps people cope with life's hardships. This doesn't mean it's true though. It means it's a tool that helps people through.

Also true. Its truth or falsity does not depend on how it makes one feel.

Anyway, a lot of what I discovered this summer made sense. The problem is.....I felt worse. I don't want this to be all that there is.

 

But for me...or for people who have dealt with more hardships than pleasure in life.....it doesn't give anything to look forward to.

Doesn't it make you try even harder to overcome those hardships in the time you have left and improve your situation? Acknowledging that your lot in life is not determined or influenced by some deity places responsibilty squarely at your feet. What you do now is up to you.

 

Out of curiosity, just because the particular set of ideas about god and spirituality you grew up with have since been evicted, does that mean you should necessarily reject it across the board? Maybe it's worth investigating something else that may cater to your perceptions of the world.

 

May you have the courage to always be open to truth as you honestly perceive it, no matter the form, no matter the cost.

But at the same time, I can't delude myself and ignore what I've learned and go back to believing those things that contradict what we have scientific proof of.

Indeed.

 

Cheers,

D.

[lovelorcet]

 

But for me...or for people who have dealt with more hardships than pleasure in life.....it doesn't give anything to look forward to.

 

I don't get this... I think looking forward to some other life is just a waste of time, time that could be spent making this life better.

 

Everyone has crap that they have to deal with in life some more than others.

 

Needing some fairy tale to make things easier is a way of avoiding the cold hard truth. It is like a child realizing that there is no santa.

[nittygritty]

Personally, I don't believe that Atheist exist. A person claiming that God doesn't exist does not make it true.

 

Agnostics say show me the proof that God exists. The truth speaks in the conscience, what does your conscience say?

 

People can choose to close their minds and turn their backs on God and his offering of love, peace and shelter throughout their lives and unfortunately they are also choosing their eternal fate.

 

True faith is the knowledge that God does exist. Your relationship with God needs some serious work and attention if a person who claims to be an atheist can make you question your love and belief in God. I would recommend you get right with God and dump the guy who claims to be an Atheist.

[lovelorcet]

Personally, I don't believe that Atheist exist. A person claiming that God doesn't exist does not make it true.

 

I would recommend you get right with God and dump the guy who claims to be an Atheist.

 

There are millions of people who are atheist so they do exist, that is like saying "I personally don't think blondes exist, there are lots of people who just bleach their hair."

 

And as far as the second comment goes, all i can say is that ignorance is bliss... whatever floats your boat...

[quankanne]

Out of curiosity, just because the particular set of ideas about god and spirituality you grew up with have since been evicted, does that mean you should necessarily reject it across the board? Maybe it's worth investigating something else that may cater to your perceptions of the world.

 

this is probably the best advice I've seen on all the posts on spirituality: Obviously you're not satisfied with what your atheist friend embraces because it goes against what your initial beliefs were, and you're in a position to find a happy medium between the two beliefs.

 

incidentally, just because you accept that the earth is millions of years old doesn't mean you cannot accept or embrace God. He doesn't operate on our standard concept of time, so that blows the whole argument of "Bible says the rocks are X age, but science says otherwise." Because while the Bible has references to science and history, primarily, it encapsulates man's spiritual journey.

 

"religion is the opiate of the masses" … could be, but then again, I don't really care what others think because my faith is mine alone, and even another believer would fail to understand it. Simply because it's mine, just like your spiritual journey is yours alone. Your truth is out there, you need to be open to it as you search, you know? As Dis says, "May you have the courage to always be open to truth as you honestly perceive it," and don't let yourself be browbeaten by believers or naysayers ... it's YOUR faith journey and you alone are the one who can find what you need or are meant to find.

[a4a]

I don't think you are put on this earth to think that your life starts after you bite the dust.

 

Live today..... plan for tomorrow.

 

I don't believe in angels or Santa. I have to have faith in myself that things will work out because of my actions or lack of actions.

 

If and when things hit the fan...... and they do, I don't pray about it, I just "do" about it.

 

Am I spiritual? Sure. But it doesn't involve stories, clergy, or books.

 

I can look out my window right now and know I found my path. Each day I get up with a reason and goal.... not that anyone told me what that should be...... I own it, I am responsible for it, and good or bad I know it is my doing.

 

I have never thought - is this all there is..... never, each day brings something new to cherish and new challenges.

 

And if some dude or dudette, or alien from the planet Keilbasa sucks my soul out and burns it for eternity because I didn't sign up to join a club...... so be it. Those are not the kind of beings I want to hang out with anywho......

 

Besides eventually you would adapt to the heat and worms eating at you.... :lmao:

[Moai]

Personally, I don't believe that Atheist exist. A person claiming that God doesn't exist does not make it true.

 

Atheists exist, I am one. Also, nobody claiming ANYTHING makes it true. There is evidence and there is not. And there is no evidence for any god claimed anywhere by anyone.

 

Agnostics say show me the proof that God exists. The truth speaks in the conscience, what does your conscience say?

 

Nope. Your conscience has nothing to do with "truth". Do you think that the men who perpetrated the Inquisition had a troubled onscience? Quite the reverse.

 

The cosnscience you describe is why the vast majority of people pick the religion dominant in their culture. Most people don't even choose, they just have it forced on them from the time they are born.

 

People can choose to close their minds and turn their backs on God and his offering of love, peace and shelter throughout their lives and unfortunately they are also choosing their eternal fate.

 

Interesting. Where do you see this love and peace manifesting itself? Sure, CHristians are loving to each other, but criticie their religion and they get real violent real quick. I am also a member on some rationaliam/atheism boards, and these people are believers through and through. I know, because they quote chapter and verse.

 

Do you believe in the Power of Odin? How about Ra, or Osiris? How about eus or Mithra? No, you don't. By your comment above, one is either agnosti about all these things, or if one doesn't believe in them one has turned their back on their love, peace, or whatever these gods offered.

 

I am not aware of anyone who is agnostic about the gods I mentioned above. In fact, I am sure that you and I agree on whether or not they are real (they aren't). I just go one step further and apply the same reasoning used to determine eus to be unreal to your particular imaginary friend.

 

True faith is the knowledge that God does exist.

 

No, faith is the belief that god exists in the face of no evidence. Why this is seen as a good thing by anyone anywhere is anathema to me.

 

Your relationship with God needs some serious work and attention if a person who claims to be an atheist can make you question your love and belief in God. I would recommend you get right with God and dump the guy who claims to be an Atheist.

 

Get right with god! Praise the Lord! Pray tell, which sect is the one that is "right"? How do you know? Why does the conscience of some people lead them to accept Roman Catholicism and others to the Pentacostals or Baptists?

 

If you marry the atheist you have less chance of getting divorced, and less chance of him cheating on you, based on statistics.

[JamesM]

If you marry the atheist you have less chance of getting divorced, and less chance of him cheating on you, based on statistics.

 

Actually recent data does show this, and I would be interested why. BUT....it is not for every Christian denomination, according to the Barna poll, Catholics have just as a low rate of divorce rate as atheists (21% for each). So, I am not sure what this shows. Statistics may be "real" but they can be used to prove much.

 

Catholics and atheists have something in common...who woulda thunk?

 

When there is a mixed mariage, then the rate skyrockets to 40%

 

BUt here is the real reason that atheists had such a better divorce rate....

 

"Barna did a survey in 1999 which found that atheists and agnostics were less likely to be divorced than were Christians other than Catholics and Lutherans. However, what became evident is that many of the people who had never been divorced had never been married in the first place. Interestingly, many of the so-called professional skeptics who delight in bashing religion didn't see this weakness and reported this study as, pardon the pun, gospel truth.

 

However, in 2004 Barna published another survey that only included people who had ever been married. Atheists and agnostics had a divorce rate similar to the average of other respondents (at 37%, actually slightly higher than the 35% of other groups). So the seemingly glowing results of atheists in the previous study were not due to their supposedly better marriages but their lower marriage rate."

[nittygritty]

Atheists exist, I am one. Also, nobody claiming ANYTHING makes it true. There is evidence and there is not. And there is no evidence for any god claimed anywhere by anyone.

 

 

 

Nope. Your conscience has nothing to do with "truth". Do you think that the men who perpetrated the Inquisition had a troubled onscience? Quite the reverse.

 

The cosnscience you describe is why the vast majority of people pick the religion dominant in their culture. Most people don't even choose, they just have it forced on them from the time they are born.

 

 

 

Interesting. Where do you see this love and peace manifesting itself? Sure, CHristians are loving to each other, but criticie their religion and they get real violent real quick. I am also a member on some rationaliam/atheism boards, and these people are believers through and through. I know, because they quote chapter and verse.

 

Do you believe in the Power of Odin? How about Ra, or Osiris? How about eus or Mithra? No, you don't. By your comment above, one is either agnosti about all these things, or if one doesn't believe in them one has turned their back on their love, peace, or whatever these gods offered.

 

I am not aware of anyone who is agnostic about the gods I mentioned above. In fact, I am sure that you and I agree on whether or not they are real (they aren't). I just go one step further and apply the same reasoning used to determine eus to be unreal to your particular imaginary friend.

 

 

 

No, faith is the belief that god exists in the face of no evidence. Why this is seen as a good thing by anyone anywhere is anathema to me.

 

 

 

Get right with god! Praise the Lord! Pray tell, which sect is the one that is "right"? How do you know? Why does the conscience of some people lead them to accept Roman Catholicism and others to the Pentacostals or Baptists?

 

If you marry the atheist you have less chance of getting divorced, and less chance of him cheating on you, based on statistics.

 

 

First of all, your preaching on a Spirituality and Religious Beliefs Forum that Spirituality and Religious Beliefs shouldn't exist because YOU don't believe that God exists. YOU say there is no proof because you haven't seen it, therefore, it does not exist.

 

God would have to not exist for an "Atheist" to be but the fact is so called "Atheist" don't have that answer yet so IMO Agnostic would be a better "label".

 

I see the love and peace manifest within, I feel it Spiritually.

 

I can look at the love and kindness of People in the world we live and see God's existence. I can look at clouds, stars, trees, flowers, mountains, butterflies, oceans, snow, an infant, the Grand Canyon, animals playing in a field, through a microscope at living cells, rainbows, etc. and see God's existence that is my evidence.

[sb129]

Uniqueone, I think anyone who starts to doubt or question a belief they have been brought up with will feel some uncertainty and the kind of feelings you have described.

 

But for me...or for people who have dealt with more hardships than pleasure in life.....it doesn't give anything to look forward to.

 

But at the same time, I can't delude myself and ignore what I've learned and go back to believing those things that contradict what we have scientific proof of.

 

In a way I feel like I've gained a lot of knowledge but in a way, I feel a lack of hope.

 

I know I did.

 

I think the poster that said you should concentrate on making your current life as full as possible was right. This will help the feeling that you have nothing to look forward to.

 

Also, Disgracians post was excellent. Maybe you should investigate other forms of spirituality to see if there is something else out there that might suit your new perceptions of the world.

 

I am sorry I can't offer any suggestions, but as it is quite a personal thing, the journey could be half the fun!

[Moai]

First of all, your preaching on a Spirituality and Religious Beliefs Forum that Spirituality and Religious Beliefs shouldn't exist because YOU don't believe that God exists. YOU say there is no proof because you haven't seen it, therefore, it does not exist.

 

I'm not preahing, for one thing. It isn't my fault that there is no evidence for god, I am just speaking the facts.

 

God would have to not exist for an "Atheist" to be but the fact is so called "Atheist" don't have that answer yet so IMO Agnostic would be a better "label".

 

And you are entitled to any label you want. I do not believe in any diety, therefore I am an atheist. Certainly, there is a possibility that there is a god, but there is also a possibility I could wake up tomorrow as a woman. Do I have to be agnostic about my own gender?

 

Are you agnosti regarding Zeus? Or Thor? Or Allah? I doubt it. Please tell me why I should give your diety any more creedence than the ones above.

 

God doesn't exist. I am sure the entire world awaits your awesome evidence and proof of his existence.

 

I see the love and peace manifest within, I feel it Spiritually.

 

That doesn't mean it's god.

 

I can look at the love and kindness of People in the world we live and see God's existence. I can look at clouds, stars, trees, flowers, mountains, butterflies, oceans, snow, an infant, the Grand Canyon, animals playing in a field, through a microscope at living cells, rainbows, etc. and see God's existence that is my evidence.

 

Which would be evidence of any god then. So why did you pick the one you did?

[nittygritty]

Which would be evidence of any god then. So why did you pick the one you did?

 

 

You admit there is evidence that God exists.

 

My spiritual journey led me to the God I put my faith in.

[Moai]

You admit there is evidence that God exists.

 

My spiritual journey led me to the God I put my faith in.

 

No, I don't. What you describe as "evidence" is just reality, and not evidence for anything beyond that it is here and observable.

 

Why does the experience of otherslead them to a completely different god with an entirely different set of moral standards?

[nittygritty]

No, I don't. What you describe as "evidence" is just reality, and not evidence for anything beyond that it is here and observable.

 

What you describe as "just reality" "beyond that it is here and observable". I would describe, when combined with my spiritual journey, as being enough evidence for me to see the proof of God's existence.

[nittygritty]

Why does the experience of otherslead them to a completely different god with an entirely different set of moral standards?

 

 

I can't speak for others because I have not experienced their spiritual journey but it is all a choice.

 

For instance, if a person were to choose Satanism the moral standards are going to be different than that of a Jewish or Christian person.

[Moai]

I can't speak for others because I have not experienced their spiritual journey but it is all a choice.

 

For instance, if a person were to choose Satanism the moral standards are going to be different than that of a Jewish or Christian person.

 

Yeah, or Islam or Hinduism. Or Jainism. Or Buddhism. Any of the other 25,000 or so religious faiths. If the evidence is so overwhelming, even jus to you, how can they be wrong?

 

And it would be great if believers left it at that, but sadly they don't. Muslims think that Christians are idolaters and must die. Christians think everyone but them is a Satanist and Jesus is going to come back and performmagic and slay them. Shall I go on?

 

What sort of spritual journey tells you that any of that has any value at all?

[nittygritty]

Yeah, or Islam or Hinduism. Or Jainism. Or Buddhism. Any of the other 25,000 or so religious faiths. If the evidence is so overwhelming, even jus to you, how can they be wrong?

 

And it would be great if believers left it at that, but sadly they don't. Muslims think that Christians are idolaters and must die. Christians think everyone but them is a Satanist and Jesus is going to come back and performmagic and slay them. Shall I go on?

 

What sort of spritual journey tells you that any of that has any value at all?

 

 

I am a Christian and I certainly don't think that everyone who is not a Christian is a Satanist or any of the other religious generalizations you just made in that post.

[Moai]

I am a Christian and I certainly don't think that everyone who is not a Christian is a Satanist or any of the other religious generalizations you just made in that post.

 

Good for you, but lots of your fellow believers disagree with you. You Christians disagree about so much that it is impossible to figure out exactly what, if anything, you do believe in.

 

What do you have to say to Christians who DO say that? Like these guys: http://www.bibleevidences.com/other_rlgns.htm

 

or

 

http://www.christian-faith.com/bible-studies/God1.html

 

Do you have playing cards in your house?

 

The guys at http://www.demonbuster.com think that they are a tool of demons.

 

Why are they wrong? Are they going to Hell? How is it that their spiritual journey has them so misguided--unless youagree with them, in which case why are more liberal beleivers misguided?

[lonelybird]

if those teaching is not for God, then they are against God, and lead to a dark place. There are many invisible dark forces to influence our mind, if we don't guard our mind with words of God, then we are easily misguided by dark forces. you may think you speak your minds, but actually your mind is influenced by invisible dark forces, so not every religion will lead you to God. but a true eagerness for seeking true God will lead you to true living God

[nittygritty]

Good for you, but lots of your fellow believers disagree with you. You Christians disagree about so much that it is impossible to figure out exactly what, if anything, you do believe in.

 

What do you have to say to Christians who DO say that? Like these guys: http://www.bibleevidences.com/other_rlgns.htm

 

or

 

http://www.christian-faith.com/bible-studies/God1.html

 

Do you have playing cards in your house?

 

The guys at http://www.demonbuster.com think that they are a tool of demons.

 

Why are they wrong? Are they going to Hell? How is it that their spiritual journey has them so misguided--unless youagree with them, in which case why are more liberal beleivers misguided?

 

 

You would have to ask the people who made those websites about their beliefs.

 

Is there a reason that you think that your more tolerant than they are?