Question for Atheists and those who do NOT believe in God...

[DutchGuy]

So how did Noah and his family manage to repopulate the Earth without inbreeding? I'm just saying...

 

Also, most people get stuck on a virgin giving birth...

But it's equally strange that a married woman would be a virgin, even if you believe in god.

[JamesM]

Moai, and those who followed....

 

I am well aware of al of the additional arguments that can be used. I purposely began this thread with the idea that it was a place for each person who felt that God did not exist (or for those who doubted that God existed) to present what brought them to that conclusion and what it would take for them to finally believe there was a God. I know that some people will have different reasons than others. I know that I could critique their responses, but this will bring the thread off-topic.

 

I sincerely hoped that it would not turn into a discussion of religion, whether God existed, or any other discussions beyond that. If this proceeds down this line, there will be NO more sharing of people's personal "testimonies." No one will feel like the thread is even about "testimonials."

 

I can say that I thought additional reasons would be given, but if I gave a multiple choice test, I would be basically giving my responses. I am surprised at the reasons given, but as was said, for every person there will be a new reason...or a modification of an old one. Either way, each person is unique in his or her thinking.

 

We can debate all of these issues on a different thread, but for this thread I would really like to hear each person's reason for doubting or not believing there is a God. And additionally, I would like to know what evidence or proof would be sufficcient to convince that individual that there is a God.

 

If this thread sparks an inspiration to you to begin a new thread based on an idea, then I think it is a great idea. If you would like to start a thread as to why you think religion is stupid...or rather Christianity is stupid, so be it. But here, please honor my request, and list reasons why YOU chose to not believe in a God. It is not necessary to begin listing what is wrong with religion, people and what they should use as reasons.

 

Please take the time to post your story with as much info as you can, and then sit back and learn as others respond. No additional posts should be needed unless you have a question for someone else.

 

Thanks. No offense meant. I really "enjoy" hearing the responses that answer my questions.

[Herzen]

"If this thread sparks an inspiration to you to begin a new thread based on an idea, then I think it is a great idea. If you would like to start a thread as to why you think religion is stupid...or rather Christianity is stupid, so be it. But here, please honor my request, and list reasons why YOU chose to not believe in a God. It is not necessary to begin listing what is wrong with religion, people and what they should use as reasons."

 

It's difficult, James, to discuss "God" in a vacuum: "God" is not just metaphysics. Rather, "God" religions are man-made doctrines, "transcendence" ideologies, which affect how people act and treat others, sometimes for better, often for worse.

 

Political theology is all the rage: in Tehran and the Bush White House. More often than not, "God" or "Allah" are used as excuses by theocratic totalitarians to tell others how to live, what to believe and whom to kill.Especially after 9/11, it's much harder for us secularists to limit religious discussion to the realm of metaphysics. Everywhere we turn, some Believer is threatening, cajoling or otherwise trying to run our lives.

 

"God" often is an excuse others give when they dictate morality, intrude into personal spheres and threaten. For some, "God" is a license to kill.

 

"God" cannot be divorced from human actions and consequences--especially after 9/11. Unfortunately, it's never just about metaphysics.

[norajane]

"God" cannot be divorced from human actions and consequences

 

How can it? Even our U.S. money boldly affirms: In God We Trust

 

Presumably, every penny the U.S. spends on weapons, porn and pimple cream is blessed by God.

[JamesM]

 

It's difficult, James, to discuss "God" in a vacuum: "God" is not just metaphysics. Rather, "God" religions are man-made doctrines, "transcendence" ideologies, which affect how people act and treat others, sometimes for better, often for worse.

 

 

I am not arguing that. What I hoped to achieve with this thread was happening in the first approximately seventy posts. My purpose for THIS thread was simply to hear everyone's answers to the two questions that I had. Once we stray from that and begin analyzing religion, the thread has gone off-topic. Then the original questions never get answered again.

[oppath]

I don't feel it got off topic that much, and to be childish, it wasn't atheists who started it .

 

I see problems with religion, the Christian-Judaic-Islamic God story in particular, and I'm not just talking about social problems (I think most churches and religious people do a world of good) or the problems with religion as a dogmatic institution.

 

For me to believe in that specific God, I would need those problems addressed. People have started listing reasons why they don't support religion and don't believe in God; for me to believe in God, those reasons would have to be reconciled. Float me into the sky and give me some cakes in front of a bearded man in a white robe...the things that make me not believe and not worship would still have to be addressed.

 

Moreover, even if I became a believer, I could not support the modern churches/religions for some of the very problems that have been posed here. Therefore in the eyes of those congregations, I would STILL be a non-believer, I would still be damned to hell, etc, because I didn't believe in THEIR God. Sorry, it is not the same God.

[lindya]

I am not arguing that. What I hoped to achieve with this thread was happening in the first approximately seventy posts. My purpose for THIS thread was simply to hear everyone's answers to the two questions that I had.

 

1. Leading to question/doubt/not believe: Natural progression from discovering various things I had learned as a little girl were myths that designed to create a sense of magic/comfort in childhood.

 

2. What I'd need to believe: God appearing and explaining the purpose of various monstrous occurrences throughout in history. Every war, every incidence of torture, every rape, murder and molestation of a child. Answers as to a) why it happened b) how it might have been prevented, c) why he didn't prevent it, and d) why we should worship an Almighty power who permits so much suffering. I'd want clear, comprehensive and intellectually convincing answers....not all this "I work in mysterious ways so mind your own business" stuff.

 

Rather than conducting the interview myself, which I'd probably make a complete shambles of resulting in a terrible lost opportunity, I'd want Jeremy Paxman to do it. He's not easily fobbed off. He'd ask pertinent questions, cut down any BS responses and help the viewer decide whether his interviewee really was an Almighty power deserving of universal worship.

[Trialbyfire]

The balance of what sways me towards not believing in God during my atheist moments are, if God is a powerful and omniscient being, why would he have taken actions that he regrets, therefore, sending his son to atone? Is God not hypocritical in that he tells his "children" to do what I say and not what I do, in that revenge is mine? It's difficult to have respect for someone who is that arrogant.

[lindya]

The balance of what sways me towards not believing in God during my atheist moments are, if God is a powerful and omniscient being, why would he have taken actions that he regrets, therefore, sending his son to atone? Is God not hypocritical in that he tells his "children" to do what I say and not what I do, in that revenge is mine? It's difficult to have respect for someone who is that arrogant.

 

Be fair. He does paint the odd rainbow from time to time as an apology for that time he flooded the world.

[Trialbyfire]

Be fair. He does paint the odd rainbow from time to time as an apology for that time he flooded the world.

What about plague and pestilience? What about Katrina?

 

Leveling people and places when you have a temper tantrum is not what an emotionally stable person does. It's quite child-like.

 

Come to think about it, the way to offset temper tantrums in a child is to ignore them, which is probably why I'm no longer a practicing theist...

[lindya]

Leveling people and places when you have a temper tantrum is not what an emotionally stable person does. It's quite child-like..

 

Following the Paxman interview of God, I'd want God to resurrect Freud - thereby proving his Almighty powers - and agree to be psychoanalysed at length. Anger issues would be thoroughly explored in a safe environment where God could speak openly and without feeling judged. Any attempts to avoid responsibility by shifting it all onto his creations would be courteously but rigorously addressed.

[Trialbyfire]

Following the Paxman interview of God, I'd want God to resurrect Freud - thereby proving his Almighty powers - and agree to be psychoanalysed at length. Anger issues would be thoroughly explored in a safe environment where God could speak openly and without feeling judged. Any attempts to avoid responsibility by shifting it all onto his creations would be courteously but rigorously addressed.

Freud would have a field day. Since there's only one God, He will have some real frustration issues...

[Herzen]

I am not arguing that. What I hoped to achieve with this thread was happening in the first approximately seventy posts. My purpose for THIS thread was simply to hear everyone's answers to the two questions that I had. Once we stray from that and begin analyzing religion, the thread has gone off-topic. Then the original questions never get answered again.

 

But James, back to your:

 

"First question...

What led you to believe that there is no God? What were the steps of your journey to atheism/agnosticism/etc.? And since I know that part of the answer will include "no evidence," did you arrive at your conclusions because of lack of evidence, rejection of childhood upbringing (ie brought up in a religious home), because of childhood upbringing (ie no church background), due to hypocrisy of those who believed in a God, and many more possibilities? Your answer can convey most of that without divulging personal details, I think."

 

 

 

It's the pain, death and torment that humans have inflicted upon other humans in "God's" name that convince me that "God" does not exist except as justification for heinous crimes.

 

The crimes in "God's" name belie His/Her/Its existence. For God cannot be grasped apart from Religion, and Religion cannot be understood apart from human actions and choices throughout history.

 

That's why Religion's blood-soaked history matters more than a million abstract theological arguments. I don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I just don't want some Believer stabbing my eye out with a pin--in "God's" name.

[sb129]

Lol. The thought of Jeremy Paxman interviewing god is hilarious. I'd like him to be on the Radio 4 morning programme with John Humphries.

 

I would also like the guys from The Friday Night Project to have him as a guest for a laugh, seeing as we may as well get some mileage out of his tour.

Can you imagine god being asked to dress up as a BB contestant by a gay man?

 

Anyway, not wanting to go off topic, but Moai, I do agree that many things about most religions are "stupid", but this thread has been really civilised so far, and not much mud has been flung, which has been nice.

[Moai]

Rejection of theism does not occur in a vacuum.

 

If the only idea of god that existed was "it is a higher force that is unknowwable" and that was it, there would be nothing to discuss.

 

But most believers don't believe that. Their gods have attributes and attitudes, and books that illuminate what those attributes are. Therefore, their claims can be examined to see if they are logically or scientifically valid. The fact that none of them are is a reason for disbelief.

 

It would seem that most thiests believe that there is a "de-conversion experience" similar to what they go through in whatever "spiritual journey" they had. And it is not that way.

 

Notice there is not one scriptre in the entire Bible (or any of the others) that praises intellectual endeavor. In fact, most posts by believers on other threads DEVALUE the rational mind in favor of "faith" and "trust" in god. That must be so, because religions are so bizarre if you think about it they make no sense.

 

I think believers know that, and when they feel the sand eroding from under their belief system they close their eyes and desperately cling to what they know deep down is untenable.

 

Everything I posted previously is true for Christianity. Given that there are 30,000 or so different sects of the religion, not all of them will agree on all of it. But that is just further evidence that it is stupid.

 

Catholics really believe that when the magic words are uttered over a cracker it turns into Jesus' body. Stories of nuns telling children that once one of the crackers was thrown against a wall and blood spattered out abound. Not only is that demonstrably false, it is evil to tell children that. Why would a woman of god do such a thing?

 

And let's consider that for a second: God likes the smell of burning flesh. He says so himself. The OT is very specific about how to go about sacrificing to the Lord.

 

For Christians, sacrifice isn't required anymore because Jesus took care of it. That doesn't make the idea of sacrifice any less stupid and barbaric--in fact, it makes it even weirder. Christianity is the only religion that features diety sacrifice I am aware of.

 

And cannibalism. Or, at least, diety consumption. Am I the only one who finds that to be absolutely bizarre? Some see it as metaphoroical, some do not, but that makes no difference. It's weird, and it boggles my mind that anybody anywhere would believe such a thing.

 

A being that can create all of reality, billions upon billions of light years in size needs humans on a puny planet in the far corner of a small galaxy to burn the kidneys of sheep, or to drink the blood of his son (who is really him anyway)?

 

This is germane to the topic, in my view. It was asked why I (and others) arrived at atheism/agnosticism, and that is certainly part of it.

 

Every believer is an atheist in regards to every other religion on the planet. Why are you a Christian and not a Muslim? Why not Zeus? Because those beliefs are obviously nonsensical to you. It is just that I find Christian beliefs equally nonsensical.

 

As far as agnositicsm goes, nobody is agnositic about Zeus or Thor or Osiris. Why give modern manifestations of superstition any more credit?

 

Should we be respectful of astrology or alchemy? Or withccraft or elves? Or fairies and trolls? Of course not. All superstition should be treated the same.

 

If this upsets believers, all they have to do is stop believing it and they will notice any insult they experience will melt away. If you feel bad that people think your beliefs are stupid, stop believing them. Simple.

[Moai]

Lol. The thought of Jeremy Paxman interviewing god is hilarious. I'd like him to be on the Radio 4 morning programme with John Humphries.

 

I would also like the guys from The Friday Night Project to have him as a guest for a laugh, seeing as we may as well get some mileage out of his tour.

Can you imagine god being asked to dress up as a BB contestant by a gay man?

 

Anyway, not wanting to go off topic, but Moai, I do agree that many things about most religions are "stupid", but this thread has been really civilised so far, and not much mud has been flung, which has been nice.

 

Hiya doll!

 

I wasn't flinging mud, I was stating fact. I know it seems mean, but how can it be? People actually believe that stuff. It is taught in church every week. With a straight face, no less.

 

God requires sacrifice. The Aztecs thought so, too. I am amazed at the dissonance that people have when they claim to abhor human sacrifice and yet accept Jesus' crucifixion without batting an eye.

 

Listing things that Christians actually believe is uncivilized? Go to any thread that lonleybird has posted on and you'll read exxactly what I did, although perhaps not as bluntly--and not all at once.

 

Since this thread is primarily for atheists (or it is in my mind anyway) I figured being honest and direct was the right approach. No beleivers have to read it, after all.

 

Anyway, it is great to read your posts, always, and I hope that you are ginger-peachy! Go All Blacks!

[sb129]

Hiya doll!

 

I wasn't flinging mud, I was stating fact. I know it seems mean, but how can it be? People actually believe that stuff. It is taught in church every week. With a straight face, no less.

Anyway, it is great to read your posts, always, and I hope that you are ginger-peachy! Go All Blacks!

 

You know you had me at "Linda Goodmans Sun Signs".

 

I read that ridiculous book as a teenager too. How much money did that woman make????!!!!! Just for a laugh, I had a flick through it not that long ago. I don't fit my astrological type at all (oddly enough).

To think I was basing all those teenage crushes around that book...I am thankful that it didn't turn out to be true, otherwise I might just be lumped with a Virgo.

 

Yay All Blacks! Much to Wonderboys delight i have actually taken an unusually large amount of interest in this World Cup.

It has alot to do with being taught how to gamble and lay off odds during live play....... Gamblers Anonymous here I come.

Another sin to add to the list...

[lindya]

If this upsets believers, all they have to do is stop believing it and they will notice any insult they experience will melt away. If you feel bad that people think your beliefs are stupid, stop believing them. Simple.

 

 

I don't think it's easy for a person to give up a belief purely because others find that belief silly. All over this board, you see evidence of people finding it hard to give up their hopes and beliefs about a relationship they had. Other people telling them they're foolish to not simply let go and move on doesn't do the trick. It's not that easy to give up something that once made you very happy. Not unless you lose all hope that it can ever make you happy again.

 

Intellectually, I connect with the arguments atheists are making here - so I guess that means my rational mind is an atheist. Emotionally, though, I can understand why people find comfort and support in religion.

 

If a friend was in a relationship with someone who was a bad lot - who I knew was going to hurt them, and that friend was blind to it and filled with conviction that the other person loved them...I'd probably try, as gently as I could, to draw them away from that belief. I'd do that because of my high likelihood of them ultimately getting badly hurt by holding onto that belief for too long. Pinning too much on it.

 

With religion - well, depending on the religion in question I might do the same thing. A friend who told me that they were drawn to Scientology would, for instance, elicit a strong negative reaction from me. Religion doesn't necessarily damage the individuals who practice it, though. Some people do genuinely appear to enhance their lives as a result of their faith.

 

To tell someone you find their faith silly probably isn't going to hold much water if their personal experience is "I feel calmer, happier and more secure with that faith than I did without it. What can you give me that's better than my faith and will result in the same level of peace and happiness?"

 

We can argue that that religion has caused all kinds of damage because of the way other people chose to practice and spread their beliefs, but you could say the same about love. Taken to the extreme of obsession, it can cause as many problems as hate...or, indeed, turn to hate. That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who love very well - who feel, and bring to others, more happiness as a result of it.

[JamesM]

 

If this upsets believers, all they have to do is stop believing it and they will notice any insult they experience will melt away. If you feel bad that people think your beliefs are stupid, stop believing them. Simple.

 

This is germane to the topic, in my view. It was asked why I (and others) arrived at atheism/agnosticism, and that is certainly part of it.

 

This is the kind of thing that I was trying to avoid. I am not disagreeing with you that these may be some reasons that people have left Christianity and believe there is no God, but as maybe I haven't stated before, this thread was intended for each person to state what caused him or her to leave Christianity and what would bring him or her to God. The majority of your post was not "Why I left God," but instead it was "Why I think Everyone Who Believes in God is Stupid"..or "Why What People Believe in the Name of Religion is Stupid." When we get to the point of making statements like this, then I think it goes beyond a personal testimony. You certainly are entitled to that belief, but it is not conducive to a thread such as this.

 

I was really hoping that statements that came off as insulting...except when describing how the person left/never came to God...could be avoided. Obviously, everything said by someone may not be inoffensive, but I think we can accept statements when describing the journey to agnosticism and atheism.

 

And this goes for both sides. Religious people can certainly make offensive and critical remarks, too. If everyone simply changed their belief so that they were not insulted, then there would only be one belief. But we are a diverse culture. We do have many beliefs. And in order to live with each other, we MUST understand each other. At least I think this is necessary. By spending just a little while listening to some who believe differently than I, I had hoped to get a better understanding of their view. So my purpose for this thread. Other threads can have different purposes.

 

For some reason, I have the belief that civility CAN reign among two groups with directly opposing views. As adults, I think we can all focus on the topic of the original post, yes?

 

As sb129 said, this thread has gone well for the most part...and I think it can stay that way.

 

Perhaps a thread of "Why I think all Religions are Stupid" might work?

 

Since this thread is primarily for atheists (or it is in my mind anyway) I figured being honest and direct was the right approach. No beleivers have to read it, after all.

 

Actually, a "believer" started it. So yes, believers are reading it. And that is what I had hoped would happen.

 

Honesty is always good. Direct does not equal insensitive.

[quankanne]

Actually, a "believer" started it. So yes, believers are reading it. And that is what I had hoped would happen.

 

yep, and I want to emphasize how much I appreciate y'alls honesty because it helps me to get a better picture of why you feel as you do. Sometimes, it can be hard to be in a dialogue that becomes a slashfest when each side is trying to make a point and it falls way short because neither truly understands its audience ...

[Moai]

This is the kind of thing that I was trying to avoid. I am not disagreeing with you that these may be some reasons that people have left Christianity and believe there is no God, but as maybe I haven't stated before, this thread was intended for each person to state what caused him or her to leave Christianity and what would bring him or her to God. The majority of your post was not "Why I left God," but instead it was "Why I think Everyone Who Believes in God is Stupid"..or "Why What People Believe in the Name of Religion is Stupid." When we get to the point of making statements like this, then I think it goes beyond a personal testimony. You certainly are entitled to that belief, but it is not conducive to a thread such as this.

 

I never said that religious people are stupid. I said religion is stupid. That is why I don't believe in it.

 

I was really hoping that statements that came off as insulting...except when describing how the person left/never came to God...could be avoided. Obviously, everything said by someone may not be inoffensive, but I think we can accept statements when describing the journey to agnosticism and atheism.

 

In point of fact, you are just ciritcal of what I think about your belief system, and my description of why I reject it. As I alluded to earlier, I am amazed it didn'tcome up earlier.

 

And this goes for both sides. Religious people can certainly make offensive and critical remarks, too. If everyone simply changed their belief so that they were not insulted, then there would only be one belief. But we are a diverse culture. We do have many beliefs. And in order to live with each other, we MUST understand each other. At least I think this is necessary. By spending just a little while listening to some who believe differently than I, I had hoped to get a better understanding of their view. So my purpose for this thread. Other threads can have different purposes.

 

And now you understand my view a little better. It isn't that I don't understand the point of view of believers--far from it. I understand it perfectly and reject it. I find it abhorrent, in point of fact.

 

I admire you for starting this thread, and your interest in the thinking of others on this matter. That speaks well of you. I find it odd that you would hope to control how those thoughts are communicated.

 

I am simply stating what I think. I never called any indivdual any name, nor did I single out one particular sect over another.

 

I stated some doctrinal points and provided my opinion about them; thinking about them is one of the things that led me to atheism.

 

Is my stating it so bad? We all know that Christians think that unbelievers like me, and everyone who does not accept their religion are going to Hell. Some Christians point that out vhemently, others choose to act as if that is not the case. That doesn't make the belief any less demeaning to others, does it? Thinking such things leads to specific actions inreality--whether it is censorship or marginalization or violence. Read a newpaper.

 

My thinking as I do, and saying might have hurt someone's feelings, but so what? I don't want believers locked up, or forbidden to speak, or anything of the sort. The freedom of thought is paramount. But I do not think that religion should get a special pass from criticism not enjoyed by any other system of belief.

 

If I had written the same thing about a political party, or a sports team, nobody would give it a second thought? Why is that? Is it because for everything there is evidence and for religion there is not, so it NEEDS such special protection?

 

For some reason, I have the belief that civility CAN reign among two groups with directly opposing views. As adults, I think we can all focus on the topic of the original post, yes?

 

I believe that my post WAS focused on the topic at hand. I think that you just disagree with how I said it. You asked a question, I answered it, but you don't like my answer. Was I wrong about any of the points I made? I didn't post them to start a debate, although I'd be happy to if you want to start another thread. I posted them because I, and many others whom I know think that way about what I wrote, and that is how we reached our conclusions.

 

As sb129 said, this thread has gone well for the most part...and I think it can stay that way.

 

Perhaps a thread of "Why I think all Religions are Stupid" might work?

 

Sure it would. but that wasn't the point of what I wrote. The point of what I wrote is: "I am an atheist because I think that these following beliefs are stupid."

 

Actually, a "believer" started it. So yes, believers are reading it. And that is what I had hoped would happen.

 

Honesty is always good. Direct does not equal insensitive.

 

I am sure they are, and I know it was started by a believer. My point is that they don't have to. I would be a little surprised if the more fundammenatlist believers on this site are reading any of it. It makes no difference to me one way or the other, as I was answering you, and then addressing the others whose posts I read--that is, those choosing to participate on this thread.

 

Disagreeing with my style and choice of adjectives is fine, but a simple "gee whiz, that was blunt!" would have sufficed. And now we are talking about what formthe responses must take.

 

I'll tell you what: from now on I will PM you my posts, and then you can edit them to your satisfaction.

[This_Too_Shall_Pass]

I'm jumping in a bit late into the conversation. I guess I didn't feel a "calling" unto this thread until just about now.

 

I wouldn't label myself an atheist, an agnostic, or any of those fancy terms planting me anywhere in the whole theology quagmire. I will go only so far as to say that I might be a bit spiritual. I believe that there's a lot to learn, a lot to improve upon, a lot to give back in return for what we have.

 

Coming to the OP's first question - what led me to believe that God doesn't exist?

 

For one thing, I'll say that all religious texts are instruments to further the belief that God exists. Some of these incidences described in the books might have happened, but they all have been much elaborated, and then attributed to "God". They do not prove, in any way, that He actually does exist.

 

 

Regarding natural calamities, wars, plagues and pestilence, those are either created by man, or follow the laws of the universe. One of the laws of the universe is that there's always a "B side". Day and night, Winter and Summer, Matter and Anti-matter, Yin and Yang. Everything has a counterpart, a contradicting entity. So, with all the "good" things happening - babies being born, flowers blooming, mankind progressing, etc., there's also war, disease, and natural calamities. That's the way the universe functions.

 

In my opinion, God and the laws of the Universe are separate and different. God didn't create the laws of the universe - they have always been there, and are precise, mechanical workings; dealing with tangibles. God operates on a more abstract plane, influencing the human mind and spirit.

 

 

About the OP's second question: What would it take for me to believe in God's existence?

 

I don't need God's existence to be proven to me. I haven't seen God, so all I can do is believe what I've been told.

 

And that is actually the point of my monologue. In my opinion, God is not an entity. He is a belief. Whether or not a person chooses to believe that belief, and to what extent, determines their standing re: the existence of God.

 

However, if I said I never think about God at all, I'd be lying. Yes, sometimes I do feel awed by it all. I also like the idea of someone supremely benevolent and omniscient, looking after the world and all the people in it. That thought instills humility - but then, my spiritual side also does that, already.

 

I also confess that I tend to think of him as a "last resort savior" during difficult times. Can't help it - someone's got to look out for me in case my parachute malfunctions during skydiving, or bring a wooden plank my way if my ship hits an iceberg.

[Moai]

As for evidence that would convince me of a diety:

 

1. Zombies. While there could be a naturalistic explanation for such things, since it has never happened that would indicate to me that were it to happen now something supernatural would be invovled. Of course, this would still leave me to looking for evidence as to which diety in particular was behind it.

 

2. The Rapture. I would prefer this, as a) it would prove to my satisfaction that there is indeed a god and b) that said diety was God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit.

 

3. A verifiable miracle. This has the same problem as #1 does.

 

Hume asserted that miracles and the supernatural must be impossible, as if they existed we would not be able to interact with reality in any meaningful way. I agree, and I find it interesting that miracles get more and more rare the more we learn about Nature. Once we abandoned the supernatural as an explanation for anything, mankind's situation has increased exponentially--which is yet another reason I am an atheist/rationalist, as it has demonstrable positive effects in reality.

[Herzen]

As for evidence that would convince me of a diety:

 

 

When men and women of "God" stop killing, maiming and torturing in the name of their particular "God."

 

When Religion ceases to matter.

 

When the law of entropy is repealed.

[norajane]

I agree with your post, TTSP. A couple of things you said struck me;

 

God operates on a more abstract plane, influencing the human mind and spirit.

 

I would actually state that differently: The human mind operates on a more abstract plane, influencing the spirit.

 

In my opinion, God is not an entity. He is a belief. Whether or not a person chooses to believe that belief, and to what extent, determines their standing re: the existence of God.

Totally agree!