Question for Atheists and those who do NOT believe in God...

[Moose]

Wow Moai,

 

Thanks for sharing! Opened my eyes, that's for sure!

I gave my lifeto Jesus, and it was a fantastic experience.

Especially this point right here. It's no wonder you're so adamant. You see, you can't take yourself away from God after you gave yourself to Him. Noone can. You can spend the rest of your life trying to prove Him non-existant, however, He lives within you......what a struggle it must be for you.....

 

P.S.

Let me send you a new keyboard/laptop.......

[a4a]

I don't believe in a god likely because of my lack of fear.

 

I do believe I am responsible for what happens to me. If a fire breaks out at my home it is my responsibility...... perhaps I should have checked the wiring.

 

Not an act of a god or devil.

 

If I get a terminal illness...... not a gods doing.... likely enviromental or my own doing, genetics perhaps.

 

If I win the lottery... it is because I bought a ticket that happened to be the right one.

 

My business is sucessful because I made it that way.

 

I was exposed to many religions growing up. We did not attend a church. I did however experience the cruelty of some religious people.... but that is not what makes me not believe in a god. I just think religion sucks.

 

The entire various stories of any god - from Ra to the Christian god are simply ridiculous. Wax wings and parting seas. I don't have the need to indulge in fantasy to sooth myself in times of need or place blame or credit on a fantasy being for my situation.

 

 

 

If a god showed up and started turning water into wine, parting my creek, and made bolts of lightening shoot out of his fingers. I would have to check to see if I ingested LSD or if it was some form of trickery (commonly used to get people to believe in magic and powers).

 

I guess it would take quite a bit to convince me it was a god of any form regardless of the proof it provided.

 

But good for you folks that find comfort in it as long as you aren't trying to choke me with your own beliefs..... rock on.

[DutchGuy]

What led you to believe that there is no God?

As a young child I was fairly sceptic about things that were told to me.

The Dutch equivalent of Santa Claus I believed (Old man that gives presents to children, in Holland the man comes simply with a boat so no magic there), the Easter bunny I can't remember ever believing in (a bunny painting eggs and hiding them for people to be found, it seemed like a hoax to me).

I was very interested in dinosaurs and the universe from a young age (5-6). Books on dinosaurs and the universe are all about evolution and laws of nature, not ever did one of the books say "and God created...".

My parents, although not religious, never forced either atheism or theism on me. They let me figure out that aspect of my life by myself.

I went to a Roman Catholic school and was tought about god and did my communion, because where I live - everybody does.

When my grandfather died, my parents told me that he was in heaven.

I prayed once, when I was sick - I asked to get better - I was about 6 then.

That was that, as far as religion during my upbringing.

 

I was a bright child and when I got older, I guess somewhere between the age of 7 and 10, I decided that god was something that had to comfort the people that couldn't comprehend science, and that heaven was for people that couldn't handle death.

I saw the bible as an ancient book of law that had to guide the people to good behaviour, only the fear of a supreme being could teach people ethics back then.

I just found religious people dumb from that point on.

I did do my confirmation when I was 12, everyone did.

 

If my parents would have been religious, there's no saying what would have been my beliefs today.

My parents maybe wouldn't have allowed me to read about dinosaurs and the universe, maybe I had to go to church each sunday...

If I would have turned out to be a believer, I think that at some point in my life I would have come to the conclusion that it was all a delusion.

 

I now study Molecular Biology at a university, almost everyone I meet is an atheist. Professors that give lectures frequently mock religion and the whole class laughs when it happens.

 

What evidence would you need...or what evidence would be convincing enough so that you finally said..."There really is a God."

This might seem sarcastic but it really isn't, I would have to take me dying and finding myself standing for the gates of heaven (or in my case, being an atheist, presumingly hell).

 

Else, I would have to witness a revelation of god himself.

I imagine a deep voice coming from the sky saying "I am god, because you won't listen to me I will demonstrate my power".

Then the sky would turn red, the sea would go haywire and all the animals would go mad. Lightning would strike me without hurting me, I couldn't make up if I was deafened by sound or the absence of it.

Something awesome like that.

 

Anything less spectacular wouldn't be sufficient.

If I would hear voices in my head or see an entity, I would probably think that either it was my imagination or that I have gone mad.

[DutchGuy]

Wow Moai,

 

Thanks for sharing! Opened my eyes, that's for sure!Especially this point right here. It's no wonder you're so adamant. You see, you can't take yourself away from God after you gave yourself to Him. Noone can. You can spend the rest of your life trying to prove Him non-existant, however, He lives within you......what a struggle it must be for you.....

 

P.S.

Let me send you a new keyboard/laptop.......

 

You can not be bound by the rules of something nonexistent.

Ofcourse it takes you to know that it is nonexistent to realise that your commitance to the matter is a hoax.

Simply because something isn't real doesn't mean it can't be extremely pleasant.

Christians tell us, if you could feel the happiness I experience for being with Jesus, you would KNOW that it is real.

 

Well, I can imagine the happiness for a child to KNOW that Santa is real, but that doesn't have to mean that he is.

[ftheunion]

This is the invisable gardner argument from my philosophy class:

 

Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in a jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "there is no gardener." So they pitch ther tents and set to watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisable gardener." So they set up barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received shock. No movements occur in the wire. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves." At last the Skeptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisable, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener, or evon from no gardener at all?"

 

 

Science and physics were a paradigm shift. The world is flat vs. the world is round is based off of the same sense data (from the ground), but are two perspectives of looking at it. The world knew the world was round before Christopher Columbus set sail in 1492. That's why he sailed west to find a trade route to India. The portugese had the african coast guarded, and the silk trail cost a bunch to travel on, owned by muslim empire. Just yankee historians don't tell you. It is not mentioned in school very much.

 

Science is the new way of looking at things.

[quankanne]

this is some really insightful stuff y'all share, and I appreciate that you've taken the time to do so … and I can see why you feel the way you do and that you don't necessarily "attack" in posts on spirituality/faith.

 

something that strikes me in these posts:

“It seems like people that believe in god have to dismiss so much about the real world to make their beliefs fit” (Allina)

 

“To me, developing religious beliefs would involve closing my eyes rather than opening them” (Lindya)

 

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

High tea with God? Who gets to be Mother? :laugh:

[Trialbyfire]

High tea with God? Who gets to be Mother?:laugh:

There will be no mothers at our high tea session. Just a good ol' fashioned one-on-one session, discussing civilized topics, in a civilized fashion. Burning bushes will not be allowed.

[tanbark813]

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers?

 

Personally, I think it's more the mindset than how vocal they are. I believe the universe operates a certain way but also understand that I could very easily be wrong and there are lots of things I don't know, and that I know I don't know. Religious folks who maintain that they may not be correct seem more open-minded--and arguably are more open-minded--than those who are convinced they are absolutely correct with no possibility of being wrong.

[a4a]

this is some really insightful stuff y'all share, and I appreciate that you've taken the time to do so … and I can see why you feel the way you do and that you don't necessarily "attack" in posts on spirituality/faith.

 

something that strikes me in these posts:

“It seems like people that believe in god have to dismiss so much about the real world to make their beliefs fit” (Allina)

 

“To me, developing religious beliefs would involve closing my eyes rather than opening them” (Lindya)

 

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

High tea with God? Who gets to be Mother? :laugh:

 

Yes Q I would say that I do think that way.

 

Just as many religous folks think we are lost.

[Herzen]

I have two questions for those who believe that there is no God or for those who doubt there is a God.

 

It came to me when I was on another Board (that was for non-theists...ie those that do not believe in a God, or a God who created the world and rules over humans). And the question was asked about what evidence is convincing enough to prove the existence of God. I found the answers fascinating. Some answers were thoughtful, some were humorous, and some were simply sarcastic. But all showed some insight into the individual's mind. So in light of that question, I wanted to ask it and one more here as well.

 

First question...

What led you to believe that there is no God? What were the steps of your journey to atheism/agnosticism/etc.? And since I know that part of the answer will include "no evidence," did you arrive at your conclusions because of lack of evidence, rejection of childhood upbringing (ie brought up in a religious home), because of childhood upbringing (ie no church background), due to hypocrisy of those who believed in a God, and many more possibilities? Your answer can convey most of that without divulging personal details, I think.

 

What evidence would you need...or what evidence would be convincing enough so that you finally said..."There really is a God." Here, I ask only that you refrain from making too many sarcastic remarks and disrespectful comments that would cause those who disagree to retort with posts that are off topic. My objective will not be to present you with that evidence. It is simply a matter of curiosity.

 

A couple of "requirements"....

 

Now, I ask that civility reigns on this thread. My intention is NOT to start dissecting the reasons or evidences needed. Nor is the intention that this thread be used as an attack on religion and God. "Believers," no responses are necessary. Questions can be asked for clarification, but it is not necessary to respond with answers to try and convince the poster that God is real.

 

And please, please..don't begin quoting Scriptures as an attempt to convert these "lost souls."

 

I do not want a lack of respect shown for those who DO believe in a God. Keep the answers as positive as possible. (For example, comments such as "I left God because ALL Christians are ignorant" is not necessary.)

 

And for those who do believe in a God, please refrain from commenting or causing a"fight" over the evidence presented or the answers/remarks that you find offensive. Certainly, no disrespect or intolerance should be shown to the answers given.

 

Personally, I "enjoy" debates with those whom I disagree as a way to learn. It is a way for me to examine my own thinking and a way to change my thinking or find evidence or reason to support my thinking. So, that is my purpose behind this thread.

 

Recent discussions with some very articulate individuals who do not believe in a God has given me a lot to think about. And so I am taking this opportunity to learn more.

 

And for those who respond...thanks.

 

 

 

I came to my atheism through a secular upbringing (my mother was a Randian Objectivist), a love of critical thinking (Nietzsche, especially), a passion for scientific method (Darwin and Popper) and the problem of evil (Auschwitz, for example). 9/11 and the coming clash of civilizations has only reinforced my hostility to theocracy , political theology and intolerant fundamentalism.

 

In short, I wish God were dead. If so, many more would still be alive.

 

As for proof of God's existence: one cannot disprove the fantastical. There may be green and yellow three headed fairies spreading fairy dust in an alternate dimension: their existence can never be conclusively disproven. But merely because something cannot be falsified doesn't mean I'm under any obligation to believe.

 

There's no "proof" that could convince me of God's existence: His silence is enough.

[JamesM]

Wow Moai,

 

Thanks for sharing! Opened my eyes, that's for sure!Especially this point right here. It's no wonder you're so adamant. You see, you can't take yourself away from God after you gave yourself to Him. Noone can. You can spend the rest of your life trying to prove Him non-existant, however, He lives within you......what a struggle it must be for you.....

 

P.S.

Let me send you a new keyboard/laptop.......

 

Yikes...careful. The purpose of this thread is to gather info without critiquing it. Please if we could all refrain from attempting to convert. And certainly no criticism or offense meant, Moose, but I started this thread only for that reason. I am afraid if this turns into a critique of each story given, no one else will want to share. Moai, please don't respond...feel free to PM Moose.

 

And I see others have done some rebutting. I wanted the focus here to be on the WHYs of being an atheist. If any point here sparks a need for debate, feel free to start a new thread.

 

And thanks to all who have done so. I hope many more share.

[sb129]

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

To me, its just the more vocal of the believers who I take issue with. There was a poster who is no longer here who used to quote scripture relentlessly, and tell we atheists we were all going to hell whom i found particularly irritating.

 

There are several posters on LS (yourself included Q) whose opinions I respect, regardless of their beliefs, because I get the feeling that they respect mine, even though they may not necessarily agree with me.

 

Personally, I think it's more the mindset than how vocal they are. I believe the universe operates a certain way but also understand that I could very easily be wrong and there are lots of things I don't know, and that I know I don't know. Religious folks who maintain that they may not be correct seem more open-minded--and arguably are more open-minded--than those who are convinced they are absolutely correct with no possibility of being wrong.

 

Exactly, well written Tanbark.

 

I am open to the possibility of being wrong, however nothing to suggest that I am has presented it to me thus far.

 

Its such a grey area, that there are no absolutes for me, and when perceived "absolutes" are in my face (such as you WILL go to hell, you ARE wrong etc etc) it gets my back up a little.

[lindya]

“To me, developing religious beliefs would involve closing my eyes rather than opening them” (Lindya)[/b]

 

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

I'd say it's more applicable where someone's trying hard to convert me by dismissing as irrelevant or incorrect any knowledge that they feel clashes with or undermines biblical teachings. In that sense, they're asking me to throw away theories and practices that I've found extremely useful and valid - both personally and professionally.

 

I know people who certainly have spiritual beliefs, and I have some sort of sense of spirituality myself at times. It's hard not to if you're in a church at the funeral of someone you love. The people who, as you mention, bash others over the head with the bible or endlessly quote from it are probably about the last people on earth who'd bring that side out in me though.

[Moai]

Wow Moai,

 

Thanks for sharing! Opened my eyes, that's for sure!Especially this point right here. It's no wonder you're so adamant. You see, you can't take yourself away from God after you gave yourself to Him. Noone can. You can spend the rest of your life trying to prove Him non-existant, however, He lives within you......what a struggle it must be for you.....

 

P.S.

Let me send you a new keyboard/laptop.......

 

Thanks man!

 

It isn't a struggle at all, actually. Right now it is obvious tha the whole thing was a construct of my mind at the time. I am sure that if I had been raised in a Muslim country the experience would have made sense within that context--but I wouldn't have had the information or experiences that would lead me out of it.

 

I am adamant because I was lucky. If I had been born in the 80s and lived in Israel I would probably have blown up a bus. See what I mean? I understand the experience of people like that, and not only do I know it to be unreal, but also contingent on culture and location.

 

I know that based on your beliefs I SHOULD be struggling mightily, but I am not in the least. Doesn't that give you pause, at least a little?

 

A couple of years before my born-again experience a friend gave me a copy of The Satanic Bible by Anton LeVey. It is an easy read, and I thought it was interesting. There are spells in there, so I tried one of them out (there was a girl I had a crush on and felt I needed all the help I could get!). I drew a Baphomet pentagram (the only decent drawing I have ever done) and got a black candle and a white one, and perform the rite that would draw her inexorably to me. Oh! The only black candle I could get was a licorice one, and I hate licorice.

 

I am sure that you will be shocked to learn that the spell didn't help whatsoever. Well, that is not entirely true, it worked in making me realize that I was a jackass....

 

That was before my experience with my sister, by the way.

 

Both my sisters had Linda Goodman's Sun Signs so of course I read that book and internalized it, which was awesome because that led me to understand that astrology is a total load of crap, too.

 

My own experience is very similar to other skeptics/atheists I know--Dr. Michael Shermer of Skeptic Magazine is quite candid about his experiencesl. That is neither here nor there, really.

 

I appreciate your comments as always, Moose! A new laptop would be awesome! I hope that you and your family are enjoying a peaceful Sunday!

[Moai]

Yikes...careful. The purpose of this thread is to gather info without critiquing it. Please if we could all refrain from attempting to convert. And certainly no criticism or offense meant, Moose, but I started this thread only for that reason. I am afraid if this turns into a critique of each story given, no one else will want to share. Moai, please don't respond...feel free to PM Moose.

 

Too late! I hope that my response was ok, and didn't hijack your thread.

 

And I see others have done some rebutting. I wanted the focus here to be on the WHYs of being an atheist. If any point here sparks a need for debate, feel free to start a new thread.

 

Can do, although I didn't take Moose's comments as a rebuttal personally. I dig Moose, actually, and I appreciated his not only reading about my experiences, but what he thought about it. But again, you're right, another thread may have been better.

 

And thanks to all who have done so. I hope many more share.

 

I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit,it was a good idea.

[DutchGuy]

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

Atheists are individuals, we don't have a set of rules for all atheists to act and think, the only thing that binds us is a disbelief of a god.

Everything else is personal politics.

 

Whatever you do, you can't stop a person from thinking the way they do.

There a loads of people that have to live in religious communities but don't believe in god. They do everything that is required to "praise the lord", but don't believe in it.

 

You can't stop the free will of a person.

Atheist nor theist.

[oppath]

T

Science and physics were a paradigm shift. The world is flat vs. the world is round is based off of the same sense data (from the ground), but are two perspectives of looking at it. The world knew the world was round before Christopher Columbus set sail in 1492. That's why he sailed west to find a trade route to India. The portugese had the african coast guarded, and the silk trail cost a bunch to travel on, owned by muslim empire. Just yankee historians don't tell you. It is not mentioned in school very much.

 

Science is the new way of looking at things.

 

No-one thought the world was flat prior to Columbus. They knew it was round, and if they were smart, they knew roughly how big it actually was (going back to Greeks and Egyptians). The notion that the church thought the world was flat is erroneous and didn't start appearing in textbooks until the late 1800's, when a few dudes (mostly the president of cornell I believe) picked a few obscure theologians who believed the world flat, and used them as examples of how religion is scientifically illiterate. The flat-earth myth is a myth: all sailors and scientists knew the world was wrong, but to ward of critics of evolution, a few influential people cited non-influential theologians to spread the religious flat-earth myth.

[lindya]

The school I went to taught religious education, but not in a down-your-throat sort of way. The usual scientific subjects were taught there too. There was no creationism versus evolution debate, because parables and bible passages tended to be passed on in a way that made them seem like metaphors to encourage a sense of right and wrong, rather than stories we were to accept as factual.

 

I think God was portrayed to us more than anything as being the inner conscience. Disappointing God was really about disappointing the best (ie kindest, gentlest) parts of yourself as well as those who cared about you.

 

I have no problem with that kind of guidance....though I'm not convinced it equips people to deal with those who either haven't had it or didn't respond to it. That's where disillusionment can set in for many people. They develop these values which they feel are fundamentally good, then they go out into the world and find that there are many people who don't have those values, and will regard those who do as weak and foolish. Victims who can be used, exploited and fooled.

 

That's when you have to start making choices about what you believe in. Either you learn to adapt, to a certain extent to a world that often brings you into conflict with your values, or perhaps you cling more rigidly to those values via organised religion. If you do the latter, then it's likely that you'll be expected to accept aspects of a belief system that, intellectually, you find impossible to accept.

 

If you do reject those intellectually unfeasible aspects then you'll be rejected in turn by the organised religion. So many people (in the West, at least) choose to develop their own belief system....some of which might be borrowed from organised religion, and some of which will be derived from more modern, scientific theories. That would be me.

 

I can say I believe in God insofar as I have a moral code that I believe in and try to live by. From the perspective of someone who adheres to an organised religion, I'm a non-believer because I abide by what I think is right rather than what organised religion, and its allegedly authoritative version of "God" dictates is right. I see Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden as simply a kind of fairy tale using symbolism to pass on certain messages and warnings about human nature and weakness. As far as I'm aware, that kind of thinking is unacceptable to a fundamentalist.

[burning 4 revenge]

Moia that was a great post.

 

As far as my personal history, I grew up Catholic going to Catholic schools, but I've been an atheist since I was seven or eight. The whole idea of God has seemed counterintuitive since I was a child, but my mother was always a fanatical Catholic

[allina]

this is some really insightful stuff y'all share, and I appreciate that you've taken the time to do so … and I can see why you feel the way you do and that you don't necessarily "attack" in posts on spirituality/faith.

 

something that strikes me in these posts:

“It seems like people that believe in god have to dismiss so much about the real world to make their beliefs fit” (Allina)

 

“To me, developing religious beliefs would involve closing my eyes rather than opening them” (Lindya)

 

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

It's hard for me to express my view on this topic without sounding like I'm bashing people, though I guess I am bashing people, I apologize.

 

As for the above I can only answer for myself. I have a hard time understanding all Christian believers (all believers but lets focus on Christians in this post.) I can't grasp how someone can believe so strongly in a concept that too me is so fantastical. I'm not trying to challenge anyone but I don't understand how believers really believe that evolution doesn't exist and that God created everything.

 

Now for the issue of varied feelings on people who are vocal believers vs just believers. I don't think anyone should have to keep their beliefs quiet, the HUGE issue with Christians that I have is their pushing their religion on other people and even on politics. I feel like it's wrong that Christians get upset over the teaching of evolution in public schools because "it goes against their faith". It's so hypocritical since they go knocking on doors in attempt to covert people, they have conquered entire civilizations and forced them to convert, they push their agenda on others and the law on a regular basis.

 

Christians make me especially angry when it comes to issues like gay marriage. Because their religion/bible/church looks down on it they feel like they have the right to push this view on others. They have the right to feel like things are right or wrong but they have no right to push their religious ideas on others, especially the law.

 

I also feel like vocal Christians discriminate against anyone who isn't like them. They talk down to people who aren't believers although it is the non believers who are often the educated/intelligent ones.

 

I could expand and go on and on about why I am an atheist but I don't see the point. I would just like to conclude with pointing out that the most horrific, disgusting and violent events in the history of humans have taken place in the name of religion by believers (everything from the Crusades to the modern day KKK) ironic.

[infiniteQuest]

I cannot say that I know with certainty that there is not god. However, the people who assert with certainty that there is a god, are in my opinion wrong. Let me explain. Thinking logically, it falls upon those who say that there is a god to provide logical proof for it, since proof of existence is possible, while proof of nonexistence is impossible to provide (you would have to survey the whole universe and all of its dimensions for that!). So, since no proof of the existence of god has been provided, I will live with the fact that I don't know whether there is a god or not, and those who say that he exists have that much less credibility to me.

[Herzen]

allina makes some strong points: For us non-believers, what's galling is not only what people believe, but how these absolutist beliefs affect others--especially non-believers.

 

Now anyone can go on the internet, obtain bomb recipies and blow-up some "infidels". Intolerant Religion and Totalitarian Theology coupled with destructive technologies and historical grievances make Religion very, very hazardous to the health of very, very many.

 

Any True Believer with Net access, absolutist convictions and an inferiority complex can acquire the hydrogen peroxide to blow others to smithereens. "If I cannot convert you, I shall kill you."

 

I'm mostly referring to militant Islamism, but any absolutist political theology is potentially dangerous.

 

To paraphrase Yeats: the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity, fundamentalist convictions and homicidal religiosity.

[lindya]

I'm mostly referring to militant Islamism, but any absolutist political theology is potentially dangerous.

 

Religion's like an exceptionally charismatic, mega-celebrity who has a huge PR team working round the clock on his behalf. There will be some perfectly nice, well-adjusted admirers who derive happiness and other positive stuff from that religion. Unfortunately the religion's God will also attract obsessive stalkers who don't mind killing anyone they perceive as being some kind of threat to their idol, and all the hopes, dreams and beliefs they've projected onto him.

 

It's the more plausible, charismatic members of that latter category, together with their naive cheerleaders, who tend to cause the problems. If those extremist religious "leaders" didn't have a socially approved God or religion as an excuse to cause all kinds of mayhem, they'd just have to invent one, "become" one....or discover one in a schizophrenic hallucination.

 

I suppose in some ways, social validation of the notion of a God allows some mentally ill individuals to slip through the net undetected, because people aren't sure whether they're actually insane or simply very devout in their beliefs.

 

In a country where there's less awareness of the different manifestations of serious mental disorder and the need for medication to treat it, I guess people like that can become very powerful and influential leaders. Anyone who's had dealings with psychiatric in-patients will know how plausible they can be. Sometimes quite impressive in their degree of self-assurance...which isn't surprising when you consider how whole-hearted they are in their convictions.

 

Given that religions tend to embrace all believers, they provide a welcoming home for such characters. Perhaps if religions worked harder to dissociate themselves from those types and discourage them from preaching the Word (and if those religions also started to pay a bit more attention to psychiatric medicine) fewer people would feel compelled to express atheistic beliefs.

[quankanne]

Oh! The only black candle I could get was a licorice one, and I hate licorice. I am sure that you will be shocked to learn that the spell didn't help whatsoever. Well, that is not entirely true, it worked in making me realize that I was a jackass....

 

might it have been the licorice conspiring against you?

 

when perceived "absolutes" are in my face (such as you WILL go to hell, you ARE wrong etc etc) it gets my back up a little.

 

I know the feeling! It just doesn’t endear you to the subject, whatever that subject may be, and despite how you might feel otherwise.

 

It's hard for me to express my view on this topic without sounding like I'm bashing people, though I guess I am bashing people, I apologize.

 

no apologies necessary – your question made me wonder if people viewed “believers” differently based on how intense their belief was. I know a lot of folks (myself included) are very uncomfortable with fundamentalism because it doesn’t leave room for man (or God) – just intense belief of a particular flavor of faith that *must* be followed ... or there’s literally hell to pay.

 

I can't grasp how someone can believe so strongly in a concept that too me is so fantastical

 

honestly? It’s hard to explain, but the closest I can get is to say that its like loving someone so intensely and never doubting that your love will be returned or that the relationship is very much wanted by the one I'm sharing it with. It's not so much cerebral as it is visceral …

[norajane]

this is some really insightful stuff y'all share, and I appreciate that you've taken the time to do so … and I can see why you feel the way you do and that you don't necessarily "attack" in posts on spirituality/faith.

 

something that strikes me in these posts:

“It seems like people that believe in god have to dismiss so much about the real world to make their beliefs fit” (Allina)

 

“To me, developing religious beliefs would involve closing my eyes rather than opening them” (Lindya)

 

Is this how agnostics/atheists/non-theists feel about *all* who profess a religious belief are viewed this way, or just the more vocal of believers? What about the person who has a stong belief but doesn't necessarily bash another over the head in an attempt to share his or her belief, but just quietly lives out the faith they profess?

 

Yes, I do feel that way about all people who believe in god/s and goddesses.

 

However, if they are quietly living their faith and not trying to convert me and everybody else, not trying to change laws/education to promote their beliefs, are not trying to hinder scientific research, and are not trying to condemn or kill others because we don't believe in god or their particular religion...I don't care what they believe and what they are doing. I have no animosity or concern, nor do I have any interest in convincing them they are wrong or turning them to my way of thinking - frankly, I never would think about them and their faith at all.